The "new" annihilation

[Benirons]

Hey folks, this is not going to be a QQ thread, I would like share with u my experiences wit the improved annhilation.

 

In a nut shell resource management has become much better than b4, not much else to say here, its in a decent spot.

 

My big problem however, which I will try to explain in detail, is that the buff to ani was basically a raw dmg buff and did not address the inherent flaw in the spec, especially compared to other dot specs.

 

We now have 75% instead of 66% on annihilate and vicous throw, and 45%in lieu of 33% on vicous slash to get the rupture proc. Okay so numbers have improved magrinally in our favour. But I swear to god, I really dont see much of a difference in terms of rupture procs. 66 and 75 r both a lot, and I still find myself tearing at my hair for watching rupture come off of cd NATURALLY several times above 30% (or getting the proc when its 1.5 secs left on cd), and very often 3-4 VT or ani combos r not enough sub 30%.

 

My big disgruntelment is that a very crippling rng element is still present even though there is a general tendancy away from, well pretty much any rng at all. For one, there is no other dot spec in the game (so far as I can recall atm) which relies on an rng proc for a dot ability to be able to use it.

 

This would be fine if rupture wasnt that significant portion of dps, but in fact it is, even more so with the huge boost to bleed dmg. To put it into perspective, my parse ranges on the 1.5 mill dummy were as low as 3750ish with horrendous proc rates to 4070 with quite good ones. I can pull over 3.7k in rage, this is really quite sad to be honest (half nim gear roughly by the way).

 

As I recall the initial buff to ani on pts at the time was 100% proc chance on annihilate and VT. I understand that would be ridicolous, albeit very very consistent and much better for QoL in terms of actual gameplay in operations. To me reliability is pretty golden in dps.

 

Therefore, what I would like to see is a form of guarantee to get the proc for sure, should annihilate or VT fail. Here I would like to draw ur attention to how PT pyro works, proc chances on rocket punch and flame burst arevery close to what it was/is in ani now (60/40%). HOWEVER, it has the added benefit of guaranteeing the rail shot proc on a second try, should the first attempt fail at getting it.

 

This is what I want for the spec to truely put it where it should be. Its not a dps boost, but a QoL boost and a reliability boost, leading to much much more consistent dps and less bald gentlebeings (tearing at hair ftw, hehe).

[Benirons]

Hard to believe Im the only one concerned by this.

 

Any thoughts on this matter? Anyone?

[chillshock]

Still proc dependent and still kited to hell and back with still nerfed selfheal.

 

The moment they add an obliiterate-style 10m gap closing to rupture... or Annihalate...

 

But right now the roots, knockbacks, slows and stuns are in such abundance that you really do waddle around a bit too much in anni.

[Benirons]

Hmm, when I wrote the OP Ill admit I did not have pvp in mind. Cant really share much experience about in ani in pvp to be honest. However, the OP concern is basically single target reliability and QoL so I guess even in pvp it would be nice to make sure to somehow get the rupture proc instead of trying to fish for it when all others can pretty much unload without any problems.

 

Id like to keep the thread on topic about the actual rng rotation and not necessarily how the spec performs in pvp and what it would need there to be improved in terms of effectiveness and survivability (althought I would not say no to an all round 2% heal instead of the lousy 1% ).

 

Oh just came to my mind: rupture has a 50% slow tied to it in pvp spec. Therefore if u have to fish for the proc ur already at a great disatvantage since u need to usecrippling slash instead of continuing ur main rotation. Its a critical element of an ani mara in pvp sticking to the target, especialy the way things r now. So from a pvp persepective too, a guaranteed turpure proc on the second try would be much needed.

[chillshock]

The 50% slow isn't helping much, tbh. You're still slowed yourself (or more likely rooted) and knocked back/pushed away.

 

But yeah... QoL... hm...

 

In that case I'd just like to have "WeakAuras" for the mara. WeakAuras2 Project Site It's a wow addon much more pwerful than the blizzard combat proc displays.

 

Yes, make those procs and their duration more visible! That would be the largest QoL I could imagine.

[Benirons]

Bump, down with rng!

[Bejarid]

Annihilation RNG is fine - reliable, even. I suck at it and don't have any issues with resetting the DoT before it expires. Wanna cry about random procs killing your numbers? Roll Carnage. Gore procs when Gore is already off CD are murder.

[Benirons]

Annihilation RNG is fine - reliable, even. I suck at it and don't have any issues with resetting the DoT before it expires. Wanna cry about random procs killing your numbers? Roll Carnage. Gore procs when Gore is already off CD are murder.

 

On a competitive lvl, no its not fine, very nasty rng to have to face most of the time. Resetting rupture is not about skill its about rng smilling on you. When u do annihilate and3 vicious slashes after and still not get the proc? And after that even annihilate fails one more time?

 

In my experience rupture comes very close to coming off of cd naturally. Ani dmg output is extremely volatile, several hundred dps difference btween high and low. Maybe u dont play it much, but I know it pretty well and I dont see the rng function much better than b4. A guaranteed proc is very much needed on the second try.

[chillshock]

A guaranteed proc... would be a trigger.

 

Also... the beauty of RNG-elements is that they aren't predictable. Neither by you (need to watch out) nor by your enemy (if you pvp). To me (I used to play anni back in the days and am now back to that, it has always been my favourite spec of the mara) the one thing that needs to be looked at is the kiting. It's so insane how cheap knockbacks and slows are... that one charge and not even a break in camo... it hurts.

 

The perfect anni to me:

 

Rework Blood Ward

Buff it to at least 4%, so it's not a 16 percent heal every 3 minutes but a 32% one.

Or better:

Remove the heal portion and add a "getting hit while it is up purges all movement impairing effects and reduces the cooldown of force camo by 1 second per 1.5 seconds

 

OR:

Delete Blood Ward

And add a talent that gives Rupture a 5/10m leap like obliterate.

 

AND:

Force Camo is now usable while stunned.

 

OPT:

I really do think that Hungering could be upped back to 1/2% of health.

 

Yes, that's a very pvp perspective.

Edited July 29, 2014 by chillshock

[Benirons]

Looking at the proc is not a problem. You can hear the awesome scream when it happens. WHen u can expect it to happen is well, extremely unreliable. Im mainly coming from the field of parsing which is then applied in operations or pvp even.

 

Madness sorcs and ani marauders r very very close to each other on the top end if u look at the 2.9 dps leaderboards. The massive difference is that the only thing sorcs need to deal with is clipping at the exact right time, other than that the spec is very predictable due to zero rng, which is a good thing. Hence the only things determinning ur consistency r crits (assuming u never mess up the rotation).

 

For ani on the other hand. U neeed to worry about rng rage generation, critical melee hits on a bleeding target and bleeding hits giving one rage everey 1.5 secs (30% chance). On top of all that, rng regarding the usage of rupture which is a VERY big part of ur dps, essentially makes or breaks it depending on how consistently u get the proc.

 

Rng on rupture is crippling on many fronts: it greatly influeces ur rage generation from bleeds. Depending on when it procs u need to delay u annihilate to keep it lined up with the proc (essentially missing out on several annihilates over the course of a long parse). AND it makes or break or dps as I outlined above: with the 21% bleed dmg buff, bleeds r EXTREMELY important for ani. Having rng on it, completely screws things over once it starts to not proc consistently. The rate at which u go berserk will suffer, less rage to use, delayed heavy hitter (yes ravage too, since to use it u need to get the proc to keep the flow of ur rotation).

 

In essence, for an ani marauder to perform well in a parse, he or she needs (assuming perfect rotation, by which I mean aligning the proc with annihilate throughout): good crits, good resource generation, good rupture procs, very little delay on annihilate, ravage very close to on cd.

 

A fair bit more things than say a madness sorc needs to deal with. All but one of the above is driven largely by rupture procs. Ur going to suffer painfully if the thing does not proc and annihilate decides to fail many times in a row (vicious throw too). SO to get a good parse, an ani marauder needs to work a lot harder than a madness sorc mashing the same buttons over and over again.

 

The main reason im talking about this is how pyro and assault work, as I mentioned in the OP too. Rail shot will never come off of cd naturally. Ever. Not even close given a continuous fight without gaps. U will always get it on ur second try. HOw important to ur dps is it? Extremely. It vents heat, it does very good dmg especially when it crits.

 

Why why why why cant ani get the same for rupture procs? With the present proc rates, any two combo of vicious slash, annihilate and vicous throw needs to give a guaranteed proc. Thats all im asking. Pls. More consistency and more reliability for such an important move.

[Ryuku-sama]

In fact, PPA will proc 93.3% of the time considering a standard rotation of 1 Rocket Punch and 3 Flame Burst (I never played the spec so feel free to correct Dulfy's rotation should it be needed) which is the two windows you are talking about.

 

(1-0.6)*(1-0.45)^3 = 0.06655

 

In Anni, Pulverize should proc 86.25% of the time after 1 Annihilate and 1 Vicious Slash.

 

(1-0.75)*(1-0.45) = 0.1375

 

Two windows here mean 2 Annihilate and 2-3 Vicious Slash.

2 Annihilate will proc Pulverize 94% of the time. Add to that 2 Vicious Slash and you are at 98.2% of the time and you missed only one Rupture. As the Pyro missed 1 Railshot.

 

I never played Pyro so I may be wrong, but we seem to have less RNG than them.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Ryuku-sama

[Benirons]

In fact, PPA will proc 93.3% of the time considering a standard rotation of 1 Rocket Punch and 3 Flame Burst (I never played the spec so feel free to correct Dulfy's rotation should it be needed) which is the two windows you are talking about.

 

(1-0.6)*(1-0.45)^3 = 0.06655

 

In Anni, Pulverize should proc 86.25% of the time after 1 Annihilate and 1 Vicious Slash.

 

(1-0.75)*(1-0.45) = 0.1375

 

Two windows here mean 2 Annihilate and 2-3 Vicious Slash.

2 Annihilate will proc Pulverize 94% of the time. Add to that 2 Vicious Slash and you are at 98.2% of the time and you missed only one Rupture. As the Pyro missed 1 Railshot.

 

I never played Pyro so I may be wrong, but we seem to have less RNG than them.

 

Ur maths is right but in practice u r wrong. In pyro u can go railshot - rocket punch - GCD - flameburst and u r in fact GUARANTEED to get the proc. Its something going in the background, written nowhere as fact, it just is so.

 

U can in fact go with worse uptime on dots and get 100% proc rate on railshot for an antire parse, by making sure there is either rocket punch and flameburst or flameburst x2 after ur railshot (note that the second move has to be right b4 u would rail shot).

 

SO no, pyro proc system is MUCH better off.

 

Ur also ignoring the fact that resource wise, u cannot keep on doing 1 ani and 1 vicious slash after for very long, u just run out of rage.

 

Having to go into a second ani window without a proc is just unacceptable given how important rupture is, needless to mention the silly assault vicous slash spam.

 

One more time in a nutshell: Pyro NEVER has to go into a second railshot window to proc rail shot. EVER. Period.

 

Ani is forced to have to deal with a second ani window without a proc while resource management is completely messed up. Occasionally rupture even comess off of cd naturally. That is absolutly unacceptable.

 

So again compare: rupture off of cd naturally vs railshot proc at 9-8 secs left on cd at most. HOpefully I managed to make this blatent difference very clear this time.

[Ryuku-sama]

Ur maths is right but in practice u r wrong. In pyro u can go railshot - rocket punch - GCD - flameburst and u r in fact GUARANTEED to get the proc. Its something going in the background, written nowhere as fact, it just is so.

 

U can in fact go with worse uptime on dots and get 100% proc rate on railshot for an antire parse, by making sure there is either rocket punch and flameburst or flameburst x2 after ur railshot (note that the second move has to be right b4 u would rail shot).

 

SO no, pyro proc system is MUCH better off.

 

Ur also ignoring the fact that resource wise, u cannot keep on doing 1 ani and 1 vicious slash after for very long, u just run out of rage.

 

Having to go into a second ani window without a proc is just unacceptable given how important rupture is, needless to mention the silly assault vicous slash spam.

 

One more time in a nutshell: Pyro NEVER has to go into a second railshot window to proc rail shot. EVER. Period.

 

Ani is forced to have to deal with a second ani window without a proc while resource management is completely messed up. Occasionally rupture even comess off of cd naturally. That is absolutly unacceptable.

 

So again compare: rupture off of cd naturally vs railshot proc at 9-8 secs left on cd at most. HOpefully I managed to make this blatent difference very clear this time.

 

PPA should proc 69.75% after 2 Flame Burst. So either the tooltip is wrong or it'S not intended.

[Benirons]

Roll a trooper or bounty hunter, get it to 55 (power shot functions the same way for mercs as flameburst for PTs). And see for yourself.

 

Or ask to watch a friend beat on the dummy in that manner, u will hear the proc going off once every 6 secs (that dirty laugh).

 

Intended or not, my understanding is that pyro has been functioning like that for a good while, and its a pretty sweet tree as a result (there is some okay rng present still when ur doing maximum dot uptime, then u need to cross ur fingers for getting the proc the first time, but otherwise ull still guaranteed to suceed on the second try thereafter ... delaying railshot by amere 1 gcd).

 

I do not want pyro to change from that, QoL of that tree is amazing. I simply want to see a QoL increase for ani too in this manner.

[Ryuku-sama]

Roll a trooper or bounty hunter, get it to 55 (power shot functions the same way for mercs as flameburst for PTs). And see for yourself.

 

Or ask to watch a friend beat on the dummy in that manner, u will hear the proc going off once every 6 secs (that dirty laugh).

 

Intended or not, my understanding is that pyro has been functioning like that for a good while, and its a pretty sweet tree as a result (there is some okay rng present still when ur doing maximum dot uptime, then u need to cross ur fingers for getting the proc the first time, but otherwise ull still guaranteed to suceed on the second try thereafter ... delaying railshot by amere 1 gcd).

 

I do not want pyro to change from that, QoL of that tree is amazing. I simply want to see a QoL increase for ani too in this manner.

 

Oh. I believe you. If you say it works like that, you're probably right. I'm just saying that numbers show it should work even better for us.

 

RP + FB procs PPA 78% of the time by using the tooltips

Anni + VS procs Pulverize 86.25% of the time by using the tooltips.

 

So either Pyro isn't working as intended or Anni isn't or there is a mistake in the tooltips.

[Benirons]

Lil comparison mistake.

 

Yes given the 60 and 40% odds in pyro, the 75 an 45% in ani is in fact a bit better statistically. No doubt about that. Those r the tooltip numbers.

 

In practice, the calculation becomes for pyro:

 

(1-0.6)*(1)= 0.4 meaning a guranteed proc on the second attempt.

 

OR

 

(1-0.4)*(1)= 0.6

 

VS

 

(1-0.75)*(.45)= 0.1125 meaning an 11.25% chance to proc pulverise should ani fail the first time.

 

What does this tell us? It shows that in pyro u have a 60 or 40% chance (starting with rocket punch or flameburst) to proc rail shot should the first move fail. Numbers r a bit funny because the second move is a guaranteed proc.

 

In comparison u have a mere 11.25% chance to get the ani proc should annihilate fail the first time.

 

Note that the above is assuming a FAILED first move to get the proc. Essentially, pyro proc odds r way ahead of ani if we r looking at 2 gcds to get the proc.

 

HOwever, its undeniable truth that ani has better expectation over 1 gcd: 75% vs 60 or 40%. Nevertheless, given how easy it is to do two proc moves within one railshot window without having to delay railshot, while the opposite is true for ani, pyro system is significantly better.

 

There u have it, the in practice calculations showing whats actualy going on.

[Ryuku-sama]

Your math are so wrong. Basic stat would show that should the first move fail, the second move (normally Vicious Slash) would have 30% to proc pulverize.

 

To your outcome there is two possibilities 'fail > fail' and 'fail*> proc'. Since the first is constant you can't count it towrd the chance of expecting a result. So the chance at the end are the chancee of procing the second move. Nothing more nothing less.

 

If Pyro ALWAYS proc on the second move, then there is something wrong. Your napkin stats are wrong. You still haven't explained what make the second attempt an automatic proc.

 

(1-0.6)*(1)= 0.4

 

OR

 

(1-0.4)*(1)= 0.6

 

This actually means nothing. Either the '1' is the chance to fail your first proc, which always happen in your scenario, or it means nothing. So assuming the '1' means first proc failing at 100% like you say, '1-0.4' is the chance to proc PPA through Rocket Punch and '1-0.6' is the chance to proc it through Flame Burst. Nothing here showing a 100% chance to proc.

And if the '1' was there to mean 100% chance to proc. It should have been a 0 because, when searching the chance to not proc either, you search the chance to fail both. and do 1-'chance to fail both' to get yoour chance to proc either of them.

 

(1-0.75)*(.45)= 0.1125

 

Here, you're basicly comparing the chance to proc on Vicious Slash and failing on Annihilate. So the chance that your whole scenarion happens. Of course the number will so small. You have 25% chance to fail your proc on Annihilate. So if you wanted to compare the chance of Vicious Slash failing after an Annihilate fail, it would be 55% and 45% to proc.

 

Please. Don't try to use math next time if you don't know what you're doing.

 

As for the fact Pyro ALWAYS proc on the second move. You may be right. But if you are, the tooltips are wrong OR it isn't intended. Simple.

 

EDIT : And between it's 60% to proc with RP and 45% to proc with FB

Edited July 30, 2014 by Ryuku-sama

[Benirons]

No my maths is not wrong. It looks odd beccause im trying to reflect how pyro actually works.

 

the 1 is meant to indicate a 100% chance of success on the secod move.

 

Therefore rocket punch fail and flameburst sucess has a 40% chance of occering.

 

And flameburst fail then flameburst sucess has a 55% chance of occering (sorry I guess I forgot its 45% and not 40%, may bad).

 

Annihilate fail then vicious slash sucess is 11.35% as mentioned b4.

 

OR sub 30 we have

 

annihilate fail and vicous throw success: 0.25*0.75= 18.75%

 

There is norhting wrong with the maths it simply looks wierd, since we r talking about proc chances where one of the elements is a guaranteed event.

 

I see u still dont believe me about the pyro guaranteed proc. Hopefully this link will make u believe, its just how it is and it should stay that way by all means: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7400055

 

Ill quote the important bit: "What am I going on about? Ionic Accelerator has been proven, that as a side effect to the low proc chance days of pre-1.2, where it could proc every time you used ion pulse, the chance of proccing from the second attack that can proc it onwards has a 100% proc rate. As such, as a beginner you can do this for a 100% Proc Rate for all of eternity."

[Ryuku-sama]

No my maths is not wrong. It looks odd beccause im trying to reflect how pyro actually works.

 

the 1 is meant to indicate a 100% chance of success on the secod move.

 

Therefore rocket punch fail and flameburst sucess has a 40% chance of occering.

 

And flameburst fail then flameburst sucess has a 55% chance of occering (sorry I guess I forgot its 45% and not 40%, may bad).

 

Annihilate fail then vicious slash sucess is 11.35% as mentioned b4.

 

OR sub 30 we have

 

annihilate fail and vicous throw success: 0.25*0.75= 18.75%

 

There is norhting wrong with the maths it simply looks wierd, since we r talking about proc chances where one of the elements is a guaranteed event.

 

I see u still dont believe me about the pyro guaranteed proc. Hopefully this link will make u believe, its just how it is and it should stay that way by all means: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7400055

 

Ill quote the important bit: "What am I going on about? Ionic Accelerator has been proven, that as a side effect to the low proc chance days of pre-1.2, where it could proc every time you used ion pulse, the chance of proccing from the second attack that can proc it onwards has a 100% proc rate. As such, as a beginner you can do this for a 100% Proc Rate for all of eternity."

 

Well.. Since Pyro always proc on the second attack, even if the first CAN'T proc it since it's inside PPA ICD, I guess there is really something wrong with the tooltips OR the procs. And yes it would be nice to have the same proc for Anni, but if Pyro's procs isn't intended. The devs would first need to find how exactly is Pyro working that way, which isn't that easy. If it is, a change in the tooltips would be seriously useful cause they are quite misleading.

 

Between your explanation in that post were so much clearer than in the first And the chance of proccing on Vicious Slash is low simply because the chance of actually failing Annihilate are quite low.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Ryuku-sama

[Benirons]

Glad we r on the same page now.

 

Yes tooltips r really darn misleading, taunts r very infamous too. For the longest time I had no idea how they actually work, 10% more threat opon use, which is not mentioned in the actual tooltip.

 

Does this mean that the extra threat gain on taunt is not working as intended? I sure hope not, tanking would be VERY hard if not impossible in some situations. I feel its the same way with pyro.

 

Ur right, it might take some serious effort to discover how and why pyro works that way and to implement it into ani too. Might be just wishful thinking on my part but I would love to see that bit of rng largely removed (even if ani proc chances need to be altered). This is largely due to QoL and the general tendacy to move away from some bad, unnecessary RNG in all dps classes that have been changed recently.

[Ryuku-sama]

Glad we r on the same page now.

 

Yes tooltips r really darn misleading, taunts r very infamous too. For the longest time I had no idea how they actually work, 10% more threat opon use, which is not mentioned in the actual tooltip.

 

Does this mean that the extra threat gain on taunt is not working as intended? I sure hope not, tanking would be VERY hard if not impossible in some situations. I feel its the same way with pyro.

 

Ur right, it might take some serious effort to discover how and why pyro works that way and to implement it into ani too. Might be just wishful thinking on my part but I would love to see that bit of rng largely removed (even if ani proc chances need to be altered). This is largely due to QoL and the general tendacy to move away from some bad, unnecessary RNG in all dps classes that have been changed recently.

 

In fact the 10% bonus threat is writen in the phrasing of 'force the target to attack the player'. Basicly it means putting you at the top of the aggro table which means giving you 10% more threat than the current highest threat if you're in melee range and 30% if you're outside melee range. The threat bonus is easy to understand once you understand how threat generation works.

 

This done, well.. I would like a Pyro style of proc in Anni too. But what would be the downside of not proccing Pulverize on Annihilate? The only time you actually need to proc on Annihilate is when Ravage is off CD. Anywhere else in the rotation and you would end up using Vicious Slash anyway. In fact it would completely eliminate the RNG in Anni.

[Benirons]

Im not sure where ur coming with those percentages form (I do know about that 10% one, but 30%?). I see no such values in the tooltip. Putting you on top of the threat table could be as much as 1 more threat than the currently highest for all I know based just off of the tooltip. Im positive the 10% was determined by testing with a parser.

 

There is no rng in the spec if annihilate has 100% proc chance (other than the initial buildup rng when u need to spam a couple vicousl slashes).

 

You will still see ani fail a good number of times therefore RNG will be present (u just cant sustain an extra vicious slash indefinitely within an ani window). So every now and then u will need to delay an ani window by one gcd ro realign with the proc. You will never need to skip an ani window due to a failed proc, which is golden. Most importantly though, there will be no risk of rupture coming off of cd simply by itself which is a god aweful frustration in my opinion.

 

Much more needed predictability and dps consistency. Now just need a dev to read this

[Ryuku-sama]

True... If you miss your proc on Annihilate, you'll be garanteed to proc on Vicious Slash for the next 3 GCD, but won't be able to keep enough rage for the fourth, so you'll have to delay to generate rage AND realign Annihilate with Pulverize ICD. In fact you could be forced to delay Annihilate after one GCD if you were already running low (I always make sure to keep three rage I never touch except for Retaliation if it proc cause I use CoA.. So much useful in PvP And good to have in PvE when you don't need a max damage spec. So that's where my 3 GCD is coming... If you don't keep that, it will be more like one or two.)

 

As for the taunt mechanic.. I said it. Once you understand how the threat table works, you can easily pick up the 10% and 30%. If you don't believe me... Taunt a mob from 20m after a friend build up a lot of threat on it. Just make sure you're both parsing.

[Benirons]

Ill take ur word for it, no reason not to, you do know what ur talking about if u looked at threat in a parser