Should Bind on Pickup be removed (or changed)?

[BuriDogshin]

My point remains though - time is valuable. ... Waste my time? My time is worth more than most of them get paid, I'm very sure.

To you and your clients. Not to me, for whom your time has no value at all, and probably not to BW.

[Uruare]

Talk about a false sense of enntitlement. You want to bill the devs for not handing you what you want instantly? You are getting exactly what you agreed to when you signed the TOS. BW is under no obligation to give you anything more than that.

 

 

 

 

If you do not feel your getting your money's worth, no one is forcing you to stay here and play the game, let alone pay the subscription.

 

Obviously, since you are still here and paying the subscription fee, you must feel the you are receiving fair value for your money, or you would, as you say, take it elsewhere.

 

If I didn't want to be here, I wouldn't be.

 

As for 'being handed everything instantly', nope, check your magic eight ball again. I'm no more interested in that sort of game that toy sound to be.

 

But let's not pretend that Bioware hasn't crammed as much cheap filler into this Star Wars sandwhich as they have been able to get away with.

 

Let's also not pretend that me having serious dislike for some things means I hate it all, or want it to fail, or any of that 'if you're not all for it, you're against it' rubbish.

 

And don't finger wag at me about terms of service. I've both read and understand the TOS. I know what it means. Look up 'hyperbole' wow you're at it. I have no actual plan of sending bills to Bioware, though honestly, whoever makes decisions up there seems to only understand language prefaced be symbols of currency.

 

Maybe getting billed $260/hr for every hour their time waste of a crafting system makes me wait for something to craft would be ina language they could understand.

 

Maybe making a graph out of it would do. Graphs featuring a dollar/hour/net entertainment abstract perhaps.

 

Because they don't understand English, or if they do, they couldn't care less about delivering quality entertainment. Just delivering whatever ' s cheapest and easiest for them to spit out and charge whatever they feel like for it.

 

That's my opinion. If you don't feel like they waste gobs I'd your time making you often do 12 things you don't care about to do the one thing you do, or if you're just fine with a crafting system that's both a casino in how you get anywhere with it, and a supremely boring one at that, you'll have a different opinion than me.

 

And that's ok.

[Ratajack]

If I didn't want to be here, I wouldn't be.

 

As for 'being handed everything instantly', nope, check your magic eight ball again. I'm no more interested in that sort of game that toy sound to be.

 

But let's not pretend that Bioware hasn't crammed as much cheap filler into this Star Wars sandwhich as they have been able to get away with.

 

Let's also not pretend that me having serious dislike for some things means I hate it all, or want it to fail, or any of that 'if you're not all for it, you're against it' rubbish.

 

And don't finger wag at me about terms of service. I've both read and understand the TOS. I know what it means. Look up 'hyperbole' wow you're at it. I have no actual plan of sending bills to Bioware, though honestly, whoever makes decisions up there seems to only understand language prefaced be symbols of currency.

 

Maybe getting billed $260/hr for every hour their time waste of a crafting system makes me wait for something to craft would be ina language they could understand.

 

Maybe making a graph out of it would do. Graphs featuring a dollar/hour/net entertainment abstract perhaps.

 

Because they don't understand English, or if they do, they couldn't care less about delivering quality entertainment. Just delivering whatever ' s cheapest and easiest for them to spit out and charge whatever they feel like for it.

 

That's my opinion. If you don't feel like they waste gobs I'd your time making you often do 12 things you don't care about to do the one thing you do, or if you're just fine with a crafting system that's both a casino in how you get anywhere with it, and a supremely boring one at that, you'll have a different opinion than me.

 

And that's ok.

 

I simply recognize that even in life, you must often do things that you do not find enjoyable in order to be able to do the things that you do find enjoyable. Even in life, there are things that I feel are a "waste of time" but serve a purpose, even if I do not agree with that purpose.

 

Would it be easier if my companions could create any mod in less than 15 seconds and if I could learn the purple schematic by only having to RE one blue mod? Yes. Do I mind waiting waiting for my companion to craft those blue mods so that I can gamble on learning the schematic for the purple mods? No.

 

Do I like doing dailies? No. Do I do them anyway in order to earn the credits and comms? Some days I do and some days I don't.

[LordArtemis]

This is a game. Nothing in a game like this can be classified as "work". Unless you count the calories you expend moving the mouse and your fingers.

 

Just my slant. IMO a persons chair does more work then they do when playing a game such as this.

Edited July 20, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Uruare]

I simply recognize that even in life, you must often do things that you do not find enjoyable in order to be able to do the things that you do find enjoyable. Even in life, there are things that I feel are a "waste of time" but serve a purpose, even if I do not agree with that purpose.

 

Would it be easier if my companions could create any mod in less than 15 seconds and if I could learn the purple schematic by only having to RE one blue mod? Yes. Do I mind waiting waiting for my companion to craft those blue mods so that I can gamble on learning the schematic for the purple mods? No.

 

Do I like doing dailies? No. Do I do them anyway in order to earn the credits and comms? Some days I do and some days I don't.

 

If Disney World were as full of unlikable necessity as most of life, nobody would go. I'm well acquainted with many of life's 'suck it up' features.

 

In not really interested in paying mmo devs for more of the same annoyance I can get paid to put up with at work. Are you?

[Prototypemind]

If Disney World were as full of unlikable necessity as most of life, nobody would go. I'm well acquainted with many of life's 'suck it up' features.

 

In not really interested in paying mmo devs for more of the same annoyance I can get paid to put up with at work. Are you?

 

There's no game worth playing IMO that doesn't have some kind of grind. Even FPS usually have some kind of time/kill/rank requirement to get certain equipment. They might not have failure rates, etc, but if you could get everything you wanted with ease or P2W and get it all with real money then it would cease to be any sort of challenge. Other than the artificial pains put in by having to buy the same items multiple times for a single mod/enhancement and the like, the grinding in this game really isn't too bad.

 

I've tired of this game a little, but it's not because of the relatively small amount of time that has to be invested on crew skills or REing items.

[Uruare]

There's no game worth playing IMO that doesn't have some kind of grind. Even FPS usually have some kind of time/kill/rank requirement to get certain equipment. They might not have failure rates, etc, but if you could get everything you wanted with ease or P2W and get it all with real money then it would cease to be any sort of challenge. Other than the artificial pains put in by having to buy the same items multiple times for a single mod/enhancement and the like, the grinding in this game really isn't too bad.

 

I've tired of this game a little, but it's not because of the relatively small amount of time that has to be invested on crew skills or REing items.

 

Its not grind in any format I'm giving the stink-eye; its certain executions of it. I fully acknowledge and even embrace the old truism that the best grind in any game is the grind you don't know you're doing.

 

Here in TOR, there are several good examples of such grind. Planetary commendations stand out as one that they do very well. Want to look pretty with modded gear as you level? You don't neeeeeeeed to, as quest greens and drops will get you by just fine. But you'll look like you were dipped in glue, then rolled down a hill of mostly garbage.

 

If you're cool with that, you'll be just fine. But if you want the pretties? If you want to put mods in the pretties? You can craft them, sure, but you can also farm up enough planetary coms to get them.

 

Its quite lovely how they do that. All in all, the way they've been leaning towards doing many of their token systems seem to me to be moving more and more into what I'd call 'Good grind' territory. It feels like a perk to finish a Weekly and get a big ol' smackerel of assorted coms.

 

That, to me, is the sort of grind that's good - the kind that feels elective even if it might not actually be, per the requirements of function.

 

At Disney World, there're always going to be lines. But after you go through Epcot, you'll never have to sweep the floor and change lightbulbs and scrub the toilets. You will never be faced with an inconveniencing, time-wasting list of chores you need to do in order to ride the teacups.

 

They could learn a lot by studying Disney's approach to running a theme park and adapting things.

 

You go to Disney World, you're gonna pay some hefty prices for various things if you want the full experience, and you might very well have to wait in some lengthy lines, but they'll bend over backwards to make you happy.

 

Yes, you. They, unlike MMO devs, understand at the professional level how important customer satisfaction is.

 

They, unlike MMO devs, have decades of experience in providing a luxury entertainment service. And even if you do nothing but buy the ticket that gets you through the gate, they'll go to considerable lengths to make YOU feel welcome.

 

They will never meet you at the gate with a laundry list of chores and treat you like a wage-slave that must first clean twelve toilets and collect twenty rat butts before you'll be allowed to talk to Sleeping Beauty. At no point will you be required to get 7-15 friends to all want to go into Epcot at the same time with you before they'll let you go through it.

 

One could argue that Disney themeparks have different needs than an MMO, and on certain things that would be true.

 

Not this one.

 

Customer satisfaction is a cornerstone priority in businesses that last. This is non-negotiable. Yet, these MMO studios don't even commonly seem to be aware that customer satisfaction is a thing they should care about. They treat the customer as if they should feel privileged to be allowed through the digital door, and that we should thank them for using us as paying beta testers, then typically fail to listen to most feedback and do whatever they damn well please, thinking they know better than the customer about everything.

 

They behave like mavericks and snake oil salesmen, and somehow seem surprised when their game either fails outright, or comes nowhere close to meeting their projections and goals on its returns.

 

It cannot be said that TOR hasn't at least gone very radically off all the maps they'd drawn for it, mm? Why is that, do you suppose?

 

Because I suppose it might very strongly have to do with that they designed it with the mentality of an arrogant snake oil salesman, not responsible, ethically-minded professionals.

 

I suspect that TOR hit all the icebergs it did because they were reckless in all the same old ways many before them have been, except now the market's a much colder, sharper place. No more balmy seas here; now, they have to learn how to navigate, and to navigate well.

 

Things like Bind on Pickup might not necessarily be a thing that could be called broken, no. It might seem, from a certain point of view, to be unwise to fix the thing that isn't necessarily broken.

 

In business, you sometimes have to go the extra mile to wow your customers, however. You have to encourage the guy playing Mickey Mouse to pay special attention to the kids waiting in long lines.

 

You don't HAVE to. Its not a contractual obligation. You are totally in your rights to make the guy playing Mickey ignore all the bored, bawling kids in the lines so he can be at his assigned post at the designated times. That's your right (if you're Disney's management). And if you do it like that, you're a fool.

 

You're wasting opportunity to make your customers happy, if you behave like that. You're setting yourself up to not have the good will of your market base to rely upon when you need to call some of that favor in, or offset some mea culpa when you eventually screw up and need to own it to even hope to make it right by them.

 

If your business doesn't have good will with your customers to lean on, you've got nothing that'll last when hard times set in.

 

Maybe someday these MMO studios will learn that. Or maybe they just don't care, and have no interest in being businesses that can last.

 

What do you think?

Edited July 20, 2014 by Uruare

[Jeweledleah]

I'd rather pull a few mods and mail them via legacy gear, then wait for ours in line for a rollercoaster ride that lasts two minutes. no matter how thrilling it is, the wait, the horrible, boring wait, often in blazing sun and you cannot move away or you lose your spot... that awful completely unfun wait? is just not worth it.

 

so.. I guess to each their own? something that takes literally few extra minutes and barely makes a dent in your finances (and if you are minmaxing - you are going to have to do a bit of extra mod pulling anyways) - to you is more annoying than waiting in line for hours doing nothing for something you get to experience once, before you have to go back to the beginning of the line if you want to do it again.

 

ok then.

 

and I'm almost hesitant to ask exactly what system you would consider a hardcore GOOD crafting system, because every single one of those systems I have personally experienced are so much more tedious and grindy and time consuming and absolutely NOT for casual players (which you proclaim yourself to be). and yet... they are somehow awesome, but pulling a few mods and mailing them to alt... is so horribly horribly BAD and grindy and awful and whatever else. >_>

 

P.S. I do think that SWTOR's modular system is that something extra awesome. having played other games, its still my favorite gearing system. in its current state.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Jeweledleah

[Uruare]

I'd rather pull a few mods and mail them via legacy gear, then wait for ours in line for a rollercoaster ride that lasts two minutes. no matter how thrilling it is, the wait, the horrible, boring wait, often in blazing sun and you cannot move away or you lose your spot... that awful completely unfun wait? is just not worth it.

 

so.. I guess to each their own? something that takes literally few extra minutes and barely makes a dent in your finances (and if you are minmaxing - you are going to have to do a bit of extra mod pulling anyways) - to you is more annoying than waiting in line for hours doing nothing for something you get to experience once, before you have to go back to the beginning of the line if you want to do it again.

 

ok then.

 

and I'm almost hesitant to ask exactly what system you would consider a hardcore GOOD crafting system, because every single one of those systems I have personally experienced are so much more tedious and grindy and time consuming and absolutely NOT for casual players (which you proclaim yourself to be). and yet... they are somehow awesome, but pulling a few mods and mailing them to alt... is so horribly horribly BAD and grindy and awful and whatever else. >_>

 

P.S. I do think that SWTOR's modular system is that something extra awesome. having played other games, its still my favorite gearing system. in its current state.

 

All fair observations, if I do say. To me, the fee on mod pulling is peanuts, but it annoys me in about the same way you or color to in describing how you feel about waiting in a long, blargh line.

 

It's there just to be a hurdle for the sake of hurdles. A pointless credit sink that we have to put up with because they can't or won't figure out fun things for us to throw credits down the drain over.

 

And it's not for lack of ideas being thrown their way. Sabaac/pazaak have been hotly desired since probably before the game released.

 

Wadda we get? Two nearly identical casino games that look like they're on the order of Pong, and manage to be far less interactive.

 

They could have vendors renting CM mounts for credits. Would you pay 50k to have a Rancor for 24 hours? How about 75k to have a walker for a day?

 

Gosh, it took me no effort at all to think of that, and it would require very little effort to implement.

 

But no. They don't even try. There isn't a scrap of evidence that can be shown to demonstrate even feeble effort to make credit sinks entertaining.

 

Repair bills aren't any better. What a pointless hassle.

 

You know, I'm willing to bet they could make npc's with voiced dialogue that're seeking charity in the form of credits. I'm willing to bet they could make just one for each fleet, tie some ds/ls choices into the conversation and make it a repeatable daily.

 

Choose to donate 1000, 10,000 or 100,000 credits, orrrrr... Reject neutrally orrrrr... Reject evil mcevilfacedly!

 

Have a little Stat tracked under the currency pane about his much your character has donated in his or her life. Throw a few achievement milestones on it for the 1,000,000, the 10,000,000 and the 100,000,000 marks. Heck, tie some exclusive titles to them.

 

But see, something like that would take some effort.

 

So naturally, nothing like that'll ever happen.

 

As for being casual, well... it's what moat that desperately want to be hardcore call me. They're never wrong, just ask them. So it must be true.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Uruare

[Tsillah]

As an idea, it could be possible for example that when you trade in your unassembled pieces that there could be an additional credit costs for trading in for non-class pieces a trade-off for costs for ripping mods out of gear.

 

I reckon that if you had to pay 100k creds when your inquisitor gets an underworld piece for my sniper for example, I would find that less annoying than having to pay for ripping out the mods twice. I say 100k because it's more expensive but it would be nbasically free if you would do the same for a sorc who gets a piece for a sage.

 

Just a rough idea but I would like it better that way.

[OddballEasyEight]

If Disney World were as full of unlikable necessity as most of life, nobody would go. I'm well acquainted with many of life's 'suck it up' features.

 

In not really interested in paying mmo devs for more of the same annoyance I can get paid to put up with at work. Are you?

 

That's an interesting comparison actually.

Do you demand that Disney World build another ride for you if the queue for the one you want to go on is too long?

Do you bill them for every hour you have to wait in line?

Do you sue them if the ride you went there to go on happens to be shut down for maintenance that day?

 

Do you demand that they build a new park closer to you so you don't have to waste all that time travelling to it?

 

Here's a news flash for you: MMO's are designed to waste a certain amount of the players time to ensure that the player sticks around for as long as possible.

Just look at any other subscription based MMO out there and you'll see the same pattern.

[Tsillah]

That's an interesting comparison actually.

Do you demand that Disney World build another ride for you if the queue for the one you want to go on is too long?

Do you bill them for every hour you have to wait in line?

Do you sue them if the ride you went there to go on happens to be shut down for maintenance that day?

 

Do you demand that they build a new park closer to you so you don't have to waste all that time travelling to it?

 

Nope, but these things did make me stop going to theme parks altogether because it sucked the fun out if for me a long time ago.

[Uruare]

That's an interesting comparison actually.

Do you demand that Disney World build another ride for you if the queue for the one you want to go on is too long?

 

No, though the very last time I was at Disney World, Princess Jasmine came down one of the lines my family was in and was offering free $5 coupons off at the beverage wagon that was coming down the way. And I've, on several occasions and with many others, been offered discounts on various things when lines were stupidly long.

 

 

Do you bill them for every hour you have to wait in line?

 

If they created completely unnecessary lines for people to stand in just for the sake of making people stand in more lines, I might very well be inclined to do so, yes.

 

Do you sue them if the ride you went there to go on happens to be shut down for maintenance that day?

 

No, though a friend of mine and her entire family got free ride tickets when they merely went to ask when a ride they'd been looking forward to was down for the evening.

 

Do you demand that they build a new park closer to you so you don't have to waste all that time travelling to it?

 

You mean like Disney Land California and Disney Land Tokyo? They didn't do it for me personally, but y'know, they didn't really have to then, did they. They'd already solved most of that problem before it became one.

 

Here's a news flash for you: MMO's are designed to waste a certain amount of the players time to ensure that the player sticks around for as long as possible.

Just look at any other subscription based MMO out there and you'll see the same pattern.

 

My answers to most of the above are in red.

 

As for your newsflash, it lacks the necessary wattage to be more than a flicker you seem to find blinding, though I certainly do not.

 

To wit: why yes, mmo's are frequently designed like that. My position is that most, and Bioware specific to this thread, try too hard in primitive, foolish ways to force retention by punitive and, I assert, needless fashions.

 

Would you like to attempt to frame an argument that the good will of one's target market is NOT vital to retention?

 

Would you like to attempt to demonstrate a line of reasoning that somehow legitimizes the prioritization of lines for the sake of lines and hurdles for the sake of hurdles over consumer good will?

 

Perhaps you would, on some level, attempt to explain to us all how Bind on Pickup is anything other than a hurdle for the sake of hurdles?

 

I don't know about you, but I don't find it fun, engaging or even particularly useful to the concept of being a credit sink. And in any event, credit sinks should be entertaining in a game, the sole function of which and the very purpose for which it exists is to entertain.

 

I'm not even remotely entertained by Bind on Pickup. I'm not sure that most, if they actually thought about it for two seconds, would be.

 

Are you?

[Tsillah]

I'm not even remotely entertained by Bind on Pickup. I'm not sure that most, if they actually thought about it for two seconds, would be.

 

I had to think of the Gladiator movie: Are you not entertained!!?

 

In Dutch we have a word which is "bezigheidstherapie". It's a form of therapy that is used to distract people by keeping them busy while they are recovering from an injury or ailment. We also use it in general as a term for activities that seem to have the sole purpose of keeping people busy for the sake of keeping them busy.

 

My view is that MMOs have far too much "bezigheidstherapie" and not enough actual entertainment.

[Jeweledleah]

All fair observations, if I do say. To me, the fee on mod pulling is peanuts, but it annoys me in about the same way you or color to in describing how you feel about waiting in a long, blargh line.

 

It's there just to be a hurdle for the sake of hurdles. A pointless credit sink that we have to put up with because they can't or won't figure out fun things for us to throw credits down the drain over.

 

And it's not for lack of ideas being thrown their way. Sabaac/pazaak have been hotly desired since probably before the game released.

 

Wadda we get? Two nearly identical casino games that look like they're on the order of Pong, and manage to be far less interactive.

 

They could have vendors renting CM mounts for credits. Would you pay 50k to have a Rancor for 24 hours? How about 75k to have a walker for a day?

 

Gosh, it took me no effort at all to think of that, and it would require very little effort to implement.

 

But no. They don't even try. There isn't a scrap of evidence that can be shown to demonstrate even feeble effort to make credit sinks entertaining.

 

Repair bills aren't any better. What a pointless hassle.

 

You know, I'm willing to bet they could make npc's with voiced dialogue that're seeking charity in the form of credits. I'm willing to bet they could make just one for each fleet, tie some ds/ls choices into the conversation and make it a repeatable daily.

 

Choose to donate 1000, 10,000 or 100,000 credits, orrrrr... Reject neutrally orrrrr... Reject evil mcevilfacedly!

 

Have a little Stat tracked under the currency pane about his much your character has donated in his or her life. Throw a few achievement milestones on it for the 1,000,000, the 10,000,000 and the 100,000,000 marks. Heck, tie some exclusive titles to them.

 

But see, something like that would take some effort.

 

So naturally, nothing like that'll ever happen.

 

As for being casual, well... it's what moat that desperately want to be hardcore call me. They're never wrong, just ask them. So it must be true.

 

no.

 

its insignificant to you. but its not insignificant to an average player. so while its still available to them, its also a discouragement to needlessly "need" on everything.

 

would I pay for a rare mount retnal? no, I personally would not. no, I don't consider it a credit sink that I would EVER participate in. I would however, pay for a shuttle to a planet of my choice that has no cooldown and circumvents several loading screens I get when arriving via my personal ship.

 

repair bills are there to encourage you to play smarter instead of beating your head against something. they are minor enough that progression raiders can still cover them, but significant enough to encourage casual players to figure out how to play their characters better.

 

yes, sabbacc/pazzac would be fun and I do hope they implement it at some point. however - things like repair bills and travel costs and costs to remove modifications, training skills, etc? those are a lot more universal. not everyone will play pazzak. everyone will repair. why are universal credit sinks important? becasue you cannot avoid them, meaning credits always leave the economy, preventing inflation spiraling out of control. AND, at least to me, they give me that rpg feel, caring for my equipment, abilities and all.

 

do you think everyone spent credits in Casino? I know plenty of people who didn't go farther than the free 5 tokens per character you get. its an optional money sink. boring one, but entirely optional. those are important, but they are NOT what keeps credits flowing out.

 

as for calling you casual? I didn't decide that you were. you yourself in your signature called yourself that, I merely called you what you seem to prefer to be seen as.

 

and you never did respond about what you consider to be hardcore crafting system. I'd love to hear what it could be without having hurdles for the sake of having hurdles that you seem to dislike so much.

 

also this

 

Nope, but these things did make me stop going to theme parks altogether because it sucked the fun out if for me a long time ago.

 

I'm amused that you seem to be willing to pay for waiting, and amusement park tickets tend to be much pricier than $15 a month, but one little micromanagement concept is oh so terrible..... (and btw? I find BoP as its implemented in SWTOR to be fun. and no, I'm not fooling myself into thinking its fun, it IS fun for me, to play around with mods, figure out what should go where and to whom and how, etc)

Edited July 20, 2014 by Jeweledleah

[Icebergy]

Short answer: No.

 

Long answer: Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

[Uruare]

no.

 

its insignificant to you. but its not insignificant to an average player. so while its still available to them, its also a discouragement to needlessly "need" on everything.

 

See, I'm not convinced of that. I think that people with the disposition to be like that aren't hindered much by this either way like BoP.

 

would I pay for a rare mount retnal? no, I personally would not. no, I don't consider it a credit sink that I would EVER participate in. I would however, pay for a shuttle to a planet of my choice that has no cooldown and circumvents several loading screens I get when arriving via my personal ship.

 

Sounds like it'd be a workable credit sink there too. Convenient! I bet the game wouldn't even explode or implode or die or catch on fire or anything catastrophic at all if it were so, either.

 

repair bills are there to encourage you to play smarter instead of beating your head against something. they are minor enough that progression raiders can still cover them, but significant enough to encourage casual players to figure out how to play their characters better.

 

I don't buy that either. I think you're applying much too much presumption of lofty justification for something that seems to me to be a much simpler 'Because WoW does it' standard. If they cared a wit about encouraging anyone to play their characters better, we wouldn't need to rely on third party player-run sites to tell us how to play them effectively at all then, would we. The game would teach us that as a component of playing it.

 

It does not.

 

 

yes, sabbacc/pazzac would be fun and I do hope they implement it at some point. however - things like repair bills and travel costs and costs to remove modifications, training skills, etc? those are a lot more universal. not everyone will play pazzak. everyone will repair. why are universal credit sinks important? becasue you cannot avoid them, meaning credits always leave the economy, preventing inflation spiraling out of control. AND, at least to me, they give me that rpg feel, caring for my equipment, abilities and all.

 

I sincerely doubt repair costs contribute significantly to the state of the economy, one way or any other. I SINCERELY DOUBT their impact, in any direction, has the weight sufficient to send it spiraling anywhere. I don't think it'd get it to so much as budge, really.

 

But I do think its one of those things you have to remember to click a button and do. Why? Make up a reason. They couldn't give a crap less why. If they wanted there to be a why, they'd have some storied reason for it.

 

The real why? Because WoW does it, and the original team that made this game very clearly did almost nothing but go full Etsy on Blizzard's garbage of yesteryear.

 

As for your 'rpg feel', well, that's all yours mate. I can't quibble that, though I don't get that out of it myself.

 

 

 

do you think everyone spent credits in Casino? I know plenty of people who didn't go farther than the free 5 tokens per character you get. its an optional money sink. boring one, but entirely optional. those are important, but they are NOT what keeps credits flowing out.

I don't spend credits in the casino, because I hate gambling. It is, however, a money sink. It is my idea of a great one - the purely elective variety. Want the prizes? Gonna have to throw money at it for any realistic shot at them.

 

Credit sinks that you cannot escape can be worked in too, but there's no excuse in an RPG why they're so blatantly and pointlessly present. Sure, fine, great; things need to be repaired and ships need fuel to fly. We could use that logic to explain why characters shouldn't be able to run for very long, should need to be fed regularly, should stay dead when they die and a host of other things that are too obnoxious for most to even pretend to tolerate in these pretendy-funtime games.

 

 

 

as for calling you casual? I didn't decide that you were. you yourself in your signature called yourself that, I merely called you what you seem to prefer to be seen as.

 

Apparently I AM casual. I'm not willing to blindly charge forth, grinning like a brainless snowman off to do whatever insanity and stupidity mmo devs are trying to get away with slapping together and calling a game. I do not come to these games to 'work hard', and I draw an immutable line between effort (good) and work (something a game should never be).

 

I'm not here to compete with anybody either. Maybe you do. Some surely do. I do not, and I'm not alone in that either. Yet, we that aren't here to be super competitive like the fidelity of our lineage and the future of our bloodline depends on it are invariably made to go through all the rigmarole that the super-competitive are willing to tolerate in order to carry on with their unceasing quest for just whatever it is they get out of it.

 

A lot of these MMOs want very badly to funnel us into competing with eachother. Some do it very well. This one?

 

Ilum called. It'd like to talk to you about world pvp and how well TOR was made to handle its own intended mechanisms. What kind of hackneyed jokers are they that get all poshed up about how amazing their world pvp is going to be, and somehow don't discover that their game engine literally cannot handle it until its released?

 

But yeah, I'm casual because I don't even bother doing things like PVPing in games that riotously suck for all things pvp (like this one) and really have no sympathy for a dev team that blatantly ignores as many great suggestions for so many things as are often made in the Suggestions forums (and elsewhere) in favor of devoting their supposedly harshly rationed time and resources to crap like GSF.

 

Riddle me this: Who the crap even wanted GSF? I was under the impression that most asking for space combat wanted to be able to travel out in space, and maybe get into fights with other players out there sure, but mostly to do cool storied things out in space and go exploring, or at least navigate around.

 

Its like they took pieces of what many wanted and cunningly frankensteined them together, to make sure that exactly nobody got pretty much anything they wanted in any format they wanted it in.

 

GSF's popularity speaks for itself though. I don't need to kick that poor, mutated wretch for that point to declare itself.

 

and you never did respond about what you consider to be hardcore crafting system. I'd love to hear what it could be without having hurdles for the sake of having hurdles that you seem to dislike so much.

 

Crafting systems that are deterministic and reward good planning rather than just Skinner Boxing a button until you run out of mats (coins in the slot machine) or the prize you want pops out are a baseline requisite for the sorts of crafting systems that dedicated crafters strongly tend to prefer. How those are executed has taken many forms in myriad games, all with their own intrinsic foibles and pros and cons.

 

TOR's crafting system isn't even particularly useful except for at the uppermost edges of endgame, for those doing augs and aug kits as well as for the minorities that have access to enough endgame RE'able stuff to get both the RE'd schematics as well as mats to craft them. They can then sell their raid level gear to the rest of us, or elsewise manufacture it for their alts or their guild or whatever.

 

Biochem stands out, I suppose. Good self buffs with biochem. Pretty fricken pathetic that the most universally useful craft skill is the one that lets you self buff a bit better.

 

Its designed like the people that came up with it never even talked to the people that made the rest of the game, and moreover, never played anything except slot machines in their lives.

 

There is no skill or planning or anything at all required or rewarded by it. The best you can do is brainlessly farm it up to max, go raiding and RE'ing gear until you get schematics, then hoard raid mats until you can make and then sell that stuff.

 

You want a better crafting system? Go take a look at Final Fantasy 14's ARR rework of crafting. There's an example of a crafting system done surprisingly well, for those with a love for crafting and actually being able to make a profit in a game by crafting things as they go.

 

Look at LotrO's crafting system. Its pretty rewarding, and a great way to provide yourself and your alts with good gear for your level as well as, with the right planning and effort, navigate your way into making some of the most powerful gear in the game, second only to top end raid gear.

 

TOR's crafting system is garbage not just because it was clearly designed to negate all possible relevance of anything remotely resembling skill, but its welded at the foundation to being a blatant skinner box AND is pretty dang worthless in most cases to most anyone that would, instead, make credits doing dailies and just buy their augs and aug kits.

 

But no. Under no circumstances is TOR the game that dedicated crafters keen to this genre of gaming flock to. TOR has not one damn thing to offer them, and never did have.

 

also this

 

 

 

I'm amused that you seem to be willing to pay for waiting, and amusement park tickets tend to be much pricier than $15 a month, but one little micromanagement concept is oh so terrible..... (and btw? I find BoP as its implemented in SWTOR to be fun. and no, I'm not fooling myself into thinking its fun, it IS fun for me, to play around with mods, figure out what should go where and to whom and how, etc)

 

My answers to most are in red above.

 

As for you finding BoP to be fun...how does playing around with mods in any way necessarily correlate to BoP?

 

In what way would BoP's absence prevent you from playing around with mods and figuring out what should go where and to whom?

 

Are you going to try to tell me that you get a big kick out of extracting them, putting them in a BoL item, mailing said item to an alt, then extracting them again, specifically?

 

That your joy, tied intrinsically to that process, would be diminished if BoP were changed to BoL and you didn't have to bother with extracting things unless you wanted to switch shells?

 

Because if you are...I'm not sure I'll be able to take that seriously on any level.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Uruare

[Jeweledleah]

incidentally, there are 2 ways that I know of to keep economy in check.

 

1. the way its done in SWTOR - amount of credits you can create by doing in game activities is more vast than there's time in a day. but to counter it - there are continuous credit sink

 

2. you are limited (often severely) just how much currency you can create through in game activity. instead of draining currency out of the game, they just limit how much of it you can create in a first place.

 

personally? I prefer method one.

[XiamaraSimi]

1) People would roll "Need" on everything (I know some people claim this is already happening, but I personally almost never see it, I can count on one hand the number of "shady" rolls I've seen in PUGs)

 

This right here. People can play rose tinted glasses wearing MarySue all they want but I can't even count how many games I've played where some ****** needed on everything they could and said "I can roll need, because I -need- money."

 

If people will be jerkwads and roll need on gear just to sell it for creds, just imagine when the rest of the group are need rolling on gear -you- need for the char your on for one of their alts...

Edited July 20, 2014 by XiamaraSimi

[BuriDogshin]

My answers to most are in red above.

Your use of dull red makes your wall-of-text even more of a pain to read. So I didn't bother.

 

N.B.: Writing terse prose takes more effort than rambling, but produces a more effective missive.

[Uruare]

Your use of dull red makes your wall-of-text even more of a pain to read. So I didn't bother.

 

N.B.: Writing terse prose takes more effort than rambling, but produces a more effective missive.

 

Then allow me to be effective at you : you said nothing relevant and your lack of elaborated thought portrays you as completely ignorable. Thus, I'll pay you no further heed.

[Ratajack]

Then allow me to be effective at you : you said nothing relevant and your lack of elaborated thought portrays you as completely ignorable. Thus, I'll pay you no further heed.

 

I'm sure he'll lose plenty of sleep over that.

 

On second thought...

[Uruare]

the irony is so thick, you can cut it with a knife. seriously.

 

to above wall of text that was reply to me - wall of text right back atcha

 

1. if you don't find SWTOR crafting useful, we must be playing a different game or something, because the only crew skills I don't find useful while leveling, are synthweaving and armormech. sadly. I still take advantage of them at endgame, becasue augments. and occasional armor skin is pretty nice, even if we have cartel market.

 

I can go pick up a stick in the woods and technically have a reasonable effective tool for myriad tasks. It was clearly a tool good enough for much that our collective ancestors did, and its value as a tool hasn't intrinsically changed over time. To wit, a stick remains a stick, and one can do with a stick the same things now as that one could do ten thousand years ago.

 

But you go right ahead and glorify the value of a system I assert to be pointlessly primitive in ways it could've been elaborated that makes us sit around and 'wait for the mail'. Its almost as non-interactive as it could possibly be, and it is, in fact, cunningly designed to apparently make sure that no amount of strategizing could meaningfully effect.

 

But yes, its technically more useful than no crafting system at all, but here in these modern times when they had many varieties of crafting systems to be inspired by, they spent over a year hyping...a stick.

 

The fact that you laude it suggests to me, if nothing else, that you're not a dedicated crafter. That's fine, not everyone is. Just don't ever let TOR's tricycle-with-training-wheels of a crafting system convince you otherwise.

 

 

2. I have played LOTRO. I found the crafting system to be tedious. the only crafting system that I found that actualy genuinely looks interesting, despite certain tedium attached to it - is Wildstar, which is sad, as I don't even like the game. amazingly, amusingly enough - SWTOR removed a lot of the tedium by allowing us to send of companions to craft and to gather, so that we are not stuck at the workbench for hours, clicking a button (only part of crafting that involves direct standing there and clicking - is reverse engineering and at least that can be done wherever). its not a spectacular system in terms of interest but its a pretty great background system.

 

I haven't played Wildstar, nor do I expect to ever bother with it. You found LotrO's crafting tedious? That pretty well cements the observation above then - you're no dedicated crafter. LotrO has one of the more well-loved crafting systems amongst those that love crafting, because it strikes a rather impressive balance between overall utility at all levels of play as well as accessibility. It really is one of those systems you can do a little with and get something useful out of, though if you do a lot with it, you can get quite a lot out of it.

 

TOR's system? You praise it for being able to use things you make as you level, and that's technically true, though I personally find it more convenient to use planetary coms for almost all of my leveling gear needs.

 

If they completely removed crafting from TOR, the leveling experience wouldn't be significantly impacted because nobody needs it for anything at all. Not one single thing. They clearly did that on purpose, but in so doing, in my eyes, they made it largely irrelevant.

 

Anything crafting can do, brainless farming can do better. And their failure is made complete by that brainless farming is often the more time efficient way to go whenever the considerations bisect.

 

Personal preference is the only variable that can really shift that the other way, and there's no logic or necessarily good reasoning required to justify preference. 'I like it because I like it' is a perfectly valid sentiment, though no defense at all for a system being evaluated on value metrics.

 

You call TOR's crafting a great background system. I call it a system rendered largely irrelevant by design, which begs me, at least, to wonder why they even bothered at all.

 

3. and again, if you don't see the a). the game itself giving you hints about playing it b). think that in your other, so called better or whatever games, people don't go outside of the games to look up guides? I have a bridge to sell you in brooklyn, cheap. I've been playing video games for a long time now. nowadays, there are multitudes of free, player written guides out there, since internet is far more accessible then it started out as. before that? there were shelves of official guides commissions by the companies that made the games. heck - they still print those. so all that planning you talk about? comes down to READING A GUIDE AND FOLLOWING ITS INSTRUCTIONS (or in some cases - downloading an addon, and following the prompts). at least for people who don't want to waste materials, that might be more difficult to find.

 

TOR didn't invent the bad habit of doing virtually nothing to teach people how to play its own game, and communities repeatedly prove that we'll fill such absences of information for our own benefit.

 

This has some benefits, such as encouraging a community to form in order to collaboratively answer a need for information, but riddle me this - how much would you pay for a car that made itself unnecessarily difficult to drive and came with a minimal 'this is how you open the doors' and 'this is how you turn the lights off and on' flimsy excuse of an instruction pamphlet?

 

Some would concoct fantastical reasons to love that car, for feeling like they'd accomplished something others couldn't in figuring out how to work it at all.

 

Most would buy the competitor's car that was easy to use and let them get right to the point of buying a car in the first place: driving it.

 

How does that compare to things like...raiding in a raid game? Lets not pretend a game like TOR didn't put raiding on the tallest pedestal and hope that this would win everything for them (like so many do). They do exactly nothing to teach people how to raid. Their entire leveling process typically encourages soloing, which encourages soloing practices and self interest, which further encourages habits that often run completely contrary to the needs of raiding, participating in a raid or even feeling confident in a raid environment.

 

In TOR, as with many other games that I feel just plain do it wrong, the game you play between levels 1-54 has no meaningful relation to, and teaches you just about nothing valuable toward, the game they expect you to jump right into at 55.

 

I assert that this is accepted practice because nobody's particularly even trying to do it better yet. That doesn't mean its good, and certainly doesn't mean it couldn't be a much better, smarter system.

 

When it comes to crafting, anyone that needs a guide for TOR crafting probably has difficulties with doors that only open in one direction. There are guides for it, yes, but there are also labels on dishwasher detergent urging us not to eat it or rub it in our eyes. Neither are necessary for anyone that isn't at risk of getting stuck in a revolving door and dying of dehydration before they figure out what to do about it.

 

 

 

 

addendum to above. you seem to be incapable of seeing beyond "SWTOR copied WoW" which tells me that you probably don't play a lot of video games, including bioware single player rpg's. becasue guess what? they have repairs too. but they MUST have copied WoW, they couldn't have drawn inspiration from from their own titles or anything, oh no.

 

You're not very good at forum psychiatrics or soothsaying. You need a new magic eight ball, or some new tea leaves at least, because you're really, really bad at the whole 'savvy intuition' thing. Leave the cold reading to the sidewalk psychics, is my advice.

 

4. yes, it would be just as fun for me to shuffle mods out of legacy gear, the part that is fun for me is the shuffling. not the mailing. once legacy storage comes out, instead of dropping stuff in a mail, I'll be dropping it into legacy storage. but it relates to BoP in a way that I cannot just move them around willy, nilly, I cannot sell them off, I cannot trade them. once they are bound to me? that's it. and there is cost, so not being rich like yourself, but rather an average casual player with average finances - I have to think what I pull and what I vendor, what I transfer and what I leave alone.

 

The average player can, with no special degree of skill, earn hundreds of thousands of credits doing the dailies they serve up in increasing abundance. Anyone that's poor in this game is either too lazy to even do some dailies, or chronically bad at not spending what they earn as fast as they earn it.

 

You seem to have this idea that nobody'd think about anything if a gun weren't figuratively pointed at their heads, making them do so. Is that true for you? Do you need to have the game force you to think? You 'have to think what you pull and what you vendor', so I'm having a hard time figuring out what the contrast would be.

 

You wouldn't know what to do if you had any actual choice? You'd do whatever was easiest even if you ruined the game for yourself by your own preferences to do it?

 

Why do you need to have them MAKE you think? Some of us like thinking and have the (apparently bad in these troubling times) habit of thinking whether its wanted or not.

 

Maybe that's my problem: I LIKE thinking. I don't need to be forced to think between crappy non-options, and I resent having crappy non-options wafted in my face as though they 'require thinking'. I LIKE strategizing and planning, being rewarded for good thinking, good execution and dare it be said, skillful procession. You think swapping mods includes any of those to a degree the common toddler doesn't exceed the requirements of in every way save literacy?

 

You like TOR's crafting system and you like being made to 'think' between trivial non-options? I'm starting to get the impression that maybe they did do a good job of targeting a market after all.

 

 

however, I'm not the one hiding my head in a sand, refusing to see that turning BoP items into BoL with NO other changes added? is going to exponentially increase ninjalooting. at the minimum, they would have to double the cost of pulling a mod out of the piece of gear, when done by a character, other than the one that gear dropped for AND restrict placing bound mods individually into storage, because you from your lofty tower don't want to see it, but yes, these little expenses here, little expenses there - they add up.

 

I believe that you're afraid it would lead to that, though I don't see BoP leading AWAY from that either. We have BoP, there's no shortage I can see of people that roll Need on everything for sometimes the stupidest, most inane and jerktastic reasons imaginable. I don't even vaguely see how a lack of BoP would encourage those that don't already do that to start. Clearly, having BoP doesn't do a thing to stop those so inclined from doing so.

 

There's no necessary relationship between these considerations.

 

As for the little expenses adding up, sure. Any recurring expense aggregates over time. However, what does it do? What is its function?

 

In the game, how does it help the game be a better game? I assert that it does exactly nothing to help the game be a better game, and is just a hurdle for the sake of hurdles. More little nuisances that, if they have any benefit to anyone at all, benefit the devs' sloppy and insignificant comprehensions of anything remotely related to economics and entertainment.

 

You say I'm in some lofty tower with my head buried in the sand? It would enable you to feel rectified and ethically validated if you could retreat behind that, wouldn't it? You wouldn't have to try and fail repeatedly to out-logic me, and instead you would be able to dismiss it out of hand.

 

The problem you're apparently not perceiving here is that I knew your argument before you even posed it. You that must be forced to think in order to do so should never argue with those of us that enjoy it - you expect too much of your bedpan logic and your parroting of views you read somewhere and felt to be compelling.

 

You think too small and you do so much too poorly. Here's the culmination of why.

 

 

after all - its part of the reason why some people want this - BoP items in a vault. not becasue of minor convenience and make no mistake its MINOR. its becasue they don't wish to spend these credits anymore. and I say? tough noogies. in russian, there's a saying (translated roughly). if you like to ride the sled down the hill? learn to like pulling your sled back up the hill.

 

And that's a wrap. You have no real comprehension of the matter, and you say so plain as kahki text on a black background. In Japanese, there's a saying - Baka wa shinanakya naoranai. I'll let you find the translation yourself.

 

 

credit sinks should be fun, your say. none of your ideas sounded like fun to me, and donating money to a beggar would actively irritate me, the way players begging on fleet irritate me. unlike real life, making credits in video games is easy and accessible to all and jobs never run out. I say credit sinks should be part of the background of your playing experience. something you do practically on autopilot, while having fun - looking pulling sled up the hill, so that you can ride down again. it doesn't feel like much, but that's the point. its a steady drain. repairs tend to be one of those. travel fees tend to be one of those. cost for pulling mods is new, but its also technically an optional credit sink.. which you exercise the option of not utilizing. as it should be.

 

I'm never going to agree with that view, and I regard your thought process as negligible upon it. My off the cuff ideas could vary in thousands of ways in the details. The point is that they would be interactive - they would at least attempt to offer some form of entertainment.

 

But hey, you like having to be forced to think about trivialities and like minimally interactive crafting, so it comes as no surprise that you'd also prefer completely hands-off credit sinks. I'm almost convinced that you'd be happiest watching a movie.

 

so to the original point of the thread. the answer still remains - depending on how its done. simply allowing BoP items to be put into legacy storage? is not a good change and ripples from that change are not going to be pleasant for majority of the population. complete overhaul of the loot system, or additional changes to costs and additional limitations.

 

You're trying to manufacture a catastrophe out of your own admixtured desires and fears, then come up with excuses for why it'd be too difficult to even think about anyway.

You know, horse ranchers once argued against automobiles in the exact same fashion. They had the agenda of trying to preserve their livelihoods though. They had a reason to be afraid of and resistant to taxes to make highways and noisy automobiles gaining popularity.

 

I can't fathom what your reasons might be, to subscribe to their arguments and lines of logic. I'm left concluding that you don't necessarily need any beyond that its just what you're used to, and change is scary.

 

 

My answers are in red. Frankly, I'm done with this. I've said my piece far too many times, and anyone that thinks differently is going to do so all the same.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Uruare

[Jeweledleah]

Then allow me to be effective at you : you said nothing relevant and your lack of elaborated thought portrays you as completely ignorable. Thus, I'll pay you no further heed.

 

again, the irony is so thick, you can cut it with a knife.

 

your so called elaborate thoughts are protracted noise that uses a lot of words to say absolutely nothing constructive. you should be in politics.

 

you love to dismiss people's concerns and reasoning as irrelevant without explaining why its erelevant. you say it is, so it must be so, right? you hear only what you wish to hear, putting words in my mouth that I haven't actualy said. you assume things about me that are completely baseless and turn around and claim that that's what I'm doing about you. /shakes head. you are right about one thing. sopping this pointless exercise of trying to reason with you is definitely for the best.

 

toodles, darling.

 

wait no. I will answer one single question. again. even though I have already answered it and you ignored it, because you don't want to hear it.

 

why is it necessary to maintain a certain amount of credits in a game and not let it get out of hand? inflation. ever heard of it? for long time players, we adjust, some better than others, naturally, but becasue we've been here all along, we could. but in comes new player and they cannot afford anything that is not sold by a vendor. becasue in order to keep up with ever growing amount of credits, people end up raising their prices. its a catch 22, snowball effect, that leaves those that weren't caught up in a middle of it all, crushed and never able to catch up.

 

2 ways that I know of, to deal with it. limit how much of the currency you can earn - several games do that, which tends to end up with large majority being fairly pull and a few who figured out how to game the system and/or got lucky - rich and screwing up the curve for everyone else.

or allow people to create nearly unlimited amount of currency, while simultaneously adding more ways into the game, to drain that currency out - so-called credit sinks. having played with both systems? I prefer one like in TOR, where you have your multitude of credit sinks, but the only things that limits someone who doesn't buy their way into riches, from getting enough credits to buy whatever it is you want? is how much effort they are willing to invest. and with a bit of effort? their own permanent rancor or whatever can be in their grasp.

and those credit sinks? are necessary to keep currency from growing out of control and taking all these things forever out of their grasp, becasue no matter how much effort they make, they can never catch up. and for some of us, knowing that effort has its reward? IS fun.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Jeweledleah

[Uruare]

again, the irony is so thick, you can cut it with a knife.

 

your so called elaborate thoughts are protracted noise that uses a lot of words to say absolutely nothing constructive. you should be in politics.

 

you love to dismiss people's concerns and reasoning as irrelevant without explaining why its erelevant. you say it is, so it must be so, right? you hear only what you wish to hear, putting words in my mouth that I haven't actualy said. /shakes head. you are right about one thing. sopping this pointless exercise of trying to reason with you is definitely for the best.

 

toodles, darling.

 

Dogs hear nothing but noise when scholars speak. And so, scholars should not speak of scholastica to dogs.

 

Mea culpa. I will not trouble you further with such noise.