OK this is getting rather silly regarding hard mode Flashpoint GF

[Warrgames]

As I said earlier I have done Tacticals with out ever touching a healing terminal (when I play as my sage healer)

 

But Ive never seen a group with out a healer actually run it with out using the terminals at least a few times

 

I suppose you could pull it off if it was 2 dps classes of Commando/Merc and/or Agent/Smuggler (both DPS having baseline heals to offer up while in DPS spec)

 

But having said that, certain Tacticals still hit hard enough (if your DPS numbers lower for a group) that using the terminals just make it a smoother run

 

Czerka Core Melt Down (Desert Boss)

Assault on Tython (that first boss outside temple where he stands in middle and adds come from corners while they fill surface with high damage circles)

 

Those 2 boss fights come to mind as frequent usage of the healing terminals

 

Quote is based off someone saying that those packs are not need and tact can be done the same as H4 mission. Which can be 4 dpsed.

I've done it without using them too with a healer.

[Kurin]

I would make the assertion, that if the healing packs are not needed, and that no player healing of any kind is needed (including bubbles, defensive cooldowns, etc.), and that a tank is not needed to kill a boss, then it becomes a fact that the boss does not do enough damage to kill people in the group. If no one can die, is it really a boss fight? Or is it just a loot pinata. Might as well just stick the loot in a box that you walk up to and click on. Only difference would be the time it takes to do so.

[slafko]

As you watch your health drop slowly down to 0% because you boosted to 800 meters away from your healer & he has no chance of getting within range, much less getting a heal off before you died.

 

Say hello to my little friends:

 

Kinetic Ward

Resilience

Battle Readiness

Deflection

Medpack 1

Force Cloak

Medpack 2

 

No mobs in flashpoints make me go further than Kinetic Ward.

[Aries_cz]

Say hello to my little friends:

 

Kinetic Ward

Resilience

Battle Readiness

Deflection

Medpack 1

Force Cloak

Medpack 2

 

No mobs in flashpoints make me go further than Kinetic Ward.

 

Just wondering, how are you able to use 2 medpacs in single combat? IIRC, that was disable some time ago (or was it reintroduced and I skipped over it?)

[Kulyok]

Tried to tank a flashpoint for the first time today. Hammer station sm. Man, I never thought it would be so hard. All these things - a healer who refuses to heal and cc and dps'ses instead, a level 15 dps in Ord Mantell greens, an undergeared dps who attacks silvers instead of following kill order... And me, a vanguard who barely struggles to keep her energy over zero, hit all strong mobs and use taunt on cooldown. A good group we were.

 

... Anyway, I think I'll try again. Got the field respec, will buy tactical markers next. If all goes well, I might get to HM FPs in a year or two.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Kulyok

[Kalfear]

If you really, really want to do hm flashpoints though, and those other things seem hard or don't cut it, roll a tank. .

 

Sure Tal

 

Oh can you please show me in the User End Agreement where joining a guild is mandatory to experience any portion of game?

 

Ill wait

 

I have been hearing the "join a guild" excuse for 2+ decades now

Its a terrible excuse forged of limited understanding

 

Now if I said I want to form a premade group that will only play with each other

Then joining a guild to find such a thing would make sense

 

But since thread is about GROUP FINDER Flashpoints (IE: Finding a group you dont normally play with)

 

The whole join a guild nonsense is just that

short sighted and very arrogant nonsense

 

Joining a guild is NOT a mandatory aspect of MMORPGs and NO CONTENT IN GAME is restricted to guilds only.

 

And for the record I was in a guild.

They all left for different guilds and then different games while I was gone awaiting shoulder surgery

I have not found a new one that meets my tastes yet since being back

But thats got nothing to do with topic of thread.

[slafko]

If a DPS does a knocback then go get the mob.

No.

 

There's no need to keep enabling and encouraging that kind of behavior.

[Aries_cz]

Sure Tal

 

Oh can you please show me in the User End Agreement where joining a guild is mandatory to experience any portion of game?

 

Ill wait

 

I have been hearing the "join a guild" excuse for 2+ decades now

Its a terrible excuse forged of limited understanding

 

Now if I said I want to form a premade group that will only play with each other

Then joining a guild to find such a thing would make sense

 

But since thread is about GROUP FINDER Flashpoints (IE: Finding a group you dont normally play with)

 

The whole join a guild nonsense is just that

short sighted and very arrogant nonsense

 

Joining a guild is NOT a mandatory aspect of MMORPGs and NO CONTENT IN GAME is restricted to guilds only.

 

And for the record I was in a guild.

They all left for different guilds and then different games while I was gone awaiting shoulder surgery

I have not found a new one that meets my tastes yet since being back

But thats got nothing to do with topic of thread.

 

So, you want to play with others (FP runs) but at the same time you don't want to play with others (Guild)? Confused, I am...

[Jandi]

Tried to tank a flashpoint for the first time today. Hammer station sm. Man, I never thought it would be so hard. All these things - a healer who refuses to heal and cc and dps'ses instead, a level 15 dps in Ord Mantell greens, an undergeared dps who attacks silvers instead of following kill order... And me, a vanguard who barely struggles to keep her energy over zero, hit all strong mobs and use taunt on cooldown. A good group we were.

 

... Anyway, I think I'll try again. Got the field respec, will buy tactical markers next. If all goes well, I might get to HM FPs in a year or two.

 

leveling FP's are a mxied bag. Don't take them as an indicator for anything. The release of KDY completely ruined the experience on many occasion as you don't need to do anything but show up for those.

 

Also, when you start doing HMFP's, do 10 before you decide how good or bad the experience is because random group of people is random.

[slafko]

Just wondering, how are you able to use 2 medpacs in single combat? IIRC, that was disable some time ago (or was it reintroduced and I skipped over it?)

Force Cloak - Uses the Force to vanish from sight, immediately exiting combat and entering stealth mode. For 10 seconds, you become virtually undetectable, but all healing done and received is decreased by 100%.

Edited July 14, 2014 by slafko

[Aries_cz]

Force Cloak - Uses the Force to vanish from sight, immediately exiting combat and entering stealth mode. For 10 seconds, you become virtually undetectable, but all healing done and received is decreased by 100%.

 

Oh right, of course, I totally missed that ability in your list

[chillshock]

Ok here's my view to the age old debakle of tanks vs no tanks.

 

I have "Wow since release" and "DPS and Tank since then" on my "CVV (curriculum vitae virtualis)". Warrior and Melee player. Some rogueish tendencies but mostly "no bull-sh*t-in-your-face!-playstyle". And mostly dps. Mentality... ya know?

 

The "no tanks" and "no Hheals" problem has been around. Every game. Always. There has never been enough Tanks even when Fury+Defense made the tanks in world of warcraft unkillable instances of mass destruction in PvP and PvE. There where lots of players going tank spec. Even for questing. But not as Tanks in instances. So it's not JUST that tanks are... slower. (They are, it drives me away from leveling as tank every time I start a character who could tank). Solo performance is important and should not be penalized for those who tank or heal. The companion-system is a cool idea. But as long as a dps+heal is faster as a tank+dps.. and feels smoother... and feels more like the character is the 'driver'... dps will be solo king.

Solo performance solution that affects neither pvp nor fp or ops: Give tanks and heals for deep heal-spec 2 companions at deep-spec-bonus.

 

The other part is difficult. Being the tank puts you in the "all eyes on you" position. (Ends up all flames on you - mostly by dps players who haven't understood that 'good player' means 'One I have a good time playing with' and not 'baddest a*s in the virtual world with derp dps and huuuuuge epeen').

That role is not desireable unless you combine a few traits:

Being confident.

Being comfortable with attention.

Being knowledgable enough to do the 1st and 2nd.

Having a thick skin and nerves of steel (Bad dps and or bad heal make YOUR playtime a living hell)

These 4 are mandatory not optional!

Basically the only way to make this enjoyable is by having a guild and or friends to play with. At the same time this dictates your online-playtime and takes away the "I don't feel like playing so I don't play for 2 months" freedom without getting a bad conscience, because "your mates got you where you are and now you're gone" (Or was it you who got them where they are? semantics! ).

 

So there are few solo queue tanks. And it's not because of the class, but because of the responsibility and attention. Two things that are probably shunned by most. Especially in a game.

 

Tanks and or "Frontmen" (the ones leading the pack when creating a system without tanks) will always be missing and there is only ONE thing that can be efficiently done to 'improve' and 'make it more attractive': Make the tank role cater towards those that love attention, not the 'nice' ones. Give the coolest moves to the tank. Make them slightly larger than the other specs. Make them Solo-Kings (see suggestion about additional companion). And most importantly: make it easy for them to get their name known and on some scoreboard.. Add a display on the fleet and the website showing the top 3 solo tanks: "Tankboards" - remove dps ones... We should know if we pull our weight or not! Make Threat-Numbers as prominent as damage. Add a ranking for successful tank-jobs - like a pvp-leaderboard, just for successfull instances and TPS! Add total longed for vanity items as reward for high tank-scores. (That armor without the shoulder-parts from the juggernaught progression trailer, Hood-up/down versions of armor, even exclusive stuff). Add tank-seasons to achieve these... with top-spots that are hard to get and 'a good average that displays experience in tanking' that is reasonably reachable.

 

Yes... cater to the egomaniacs, the score-wh*res, the collectors, the full-time-gamers. The ones who will actually put up with almost anything in their 'free time'.

"But who would play dps then?" - Well, the normal ones. The ones who want an easy 'job' in pve. The ones who dislike leading, deciding and needing to know. The ones who - at the end of a work day - want some responsibility-less gameplay. And there will always be the dps that guilds need.

 

I still wouldn't tank. But maybe I'd perceive solo tanks with more respect than pitty and maybe that would be enough for more of the full-time-players to consider a role in tanking...

[slafko]

That role is not desireable unless you combine a few traits:

Being confident.

Being comfortable with attention.

Being knowledgable enough to do the 1st and 2nd.

Having a thick skin and nerves of steel (Bad dps and or bad heal make YOUR playtime a living hell)

These 4 are mandatory not optional!

Good points.

 

Let me just say that tanking in SWTOR is a walk in the park compared to playing a Monk in Guild Wars. The amount of abuse was such that we had organised a strike and ignored pugging for few days.

[Aries_cz]

*snip*

Good ideas, but I think that most of the bonuses you mentioned are going a bit against classes who cannot tank. I for example, picked Sage long before the game launched, because I love the "energy-slinging ******" archetype (be it mage or a guy in repuslor-equipped suit (or both combined)). I would have no chance of getting on that board or earn any "cool" stuff.

So while I agree in principle with rewarding "best of the best", I simply think that so much catering to one spec is not a good idea, especially when there are some who just cannot play that spec no matter how much they want.

[Halinalle]

Joining a guild is NOT a mandatory aspect of MMORPGs and NO CONTENT IN GAME is restricted to guilds only.

 

Hardmode FPs aren't even difficult. You can solo Athiss HM as light armor wearing tank. If you don't want to do it as tank it can be 2 manned: go to Youtube and search for Athiss HM two man marauder

Check other videos from same user.

 

Oh right, of course, I totally missed that ability in your list

 

It's best ability in the game. Of course that includes similar ability for tech users.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Halinalle

[chillshock]

Good ideas, but I think that most of the bonuses you mentioned are going a bit against classes who cannot tank. ... catering to one spec is not a good idea, especially when there are some who just cannot play that spec no matter how much they want.

 

Well, if you want to promote tanking you got to promote tanking. Promoting everything doesn't promote anything.

Same goes for healing: If you want to promote it, you need to figure out what's the reason for people playing it now and reward that. Exactly that.

 

I know it's so unfair for classes who can't do it. But well... that's basically the point. It's something you can not do, unless you tank or heal. The point is to create something NOT everyone is entitled to. Yes, it makes tanks a bit elitist. But ... yes, that's the kind of stuff the job needs, I think. A birthright to special-snowflake a little. And by a little I mean "enough to offset doing the most sh*t job in an mmo and still feel awesome."

 

I'm not sure how else to explain it. If you made it available to all, the purpose would be void. Actually the result would be just... more stuff not chaning anything.

[BlackflameSeven]

I'll throw another possible reason why there are more dps in any mmo than tanks.

 

The ONLY place to learn the job is in a group with other people. You learn to dps the moment you wander into the game, and if you have heals, you can see to throw them on to yourself as you take damage (ok, not quite that simple, apologies healers, but you get the idea). But nothing teaches you the tank role, nothing lets you experience the job in any way until you put yourself in a group.

 

Now the OP seems to think that the group finder should do this job. I can't be bothered to find the quote, he yelled something about it not being in the EULA, but I wonder how many people did their first EVER tank role with a group of complete strangers instead of with friends or their guild. My first tanking took place in WoW, in the original 20 man ZG raid of all places, on my paladin that I had been healing IN MY GUILD for months when patch 2.0 hit and a paladin finally had things like taunts. Almost everyone changed role or toon, and we did something we knew inside out but from a new perspective. So I learned to tank with people I had known for a long time, and when I made a fool of myself, everyone laughed.

 

But thats not what a GF run will do. It will often result in abuse and mistreatment of players lacking in confidence in their role, not through stupidity or lack of enthusiasm, but through a total lack of experience. They cannot learn any other way. I met a new tank in an LI HM run during the double xp week while on my operative healer. He had done just a single 50+ HM fp, seemed keen, but also seemed a bit lost. So I offered advice on kill order for a tank etc, and although we died to almost everything, eventually we cleared it. But he was lucky in that I like to help, and neither dps had ever been there before. If he had met the more typical dps player, I could have seen a rage-fest at the first wipe.

 

There's nothing wrong with the tank classes themselves, although I liked the idea about making them the flashiest classes to attract the egos. We can either benefit from more tanks or break the arrogant fools when they fail! But there is just no opportunity to learn without risking the abuse of the bads for a new player, and few will risk it.

 

So a random suggestion would be solo tanking missions, perhaps where you have to defend npcs, taunt mobs off them, maintain threat on small groups to protect the vulnerable, something where you can get the chance to learn the basics of tanking. Because right now, regardless of the few here claiming to the contrary, the problem remains the people. When you find a low geared tank, nurture them, teach them, explain politely, because every time you chase one off, your queue gets longer

[Halinalle]

It's not because tanking is hard... It's actually the easiest role if you think about it... in competent group.

Followed by heals. DPS is actually the most difficult role to play correctly.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Halinalle

[Aries_cz]

Well, if you want to promote tanking you got to promote tanking. Promoting everything doesn't promote anything.

Same goes for healing: If you want to promote it, you need to figure out what's the reason for people playing it now and reward that. Exactly that.

 

I know it's so unfair for classes who can't do it. But well... that's basically the point. It's something you can not do, unless you tank or heal. The point is to create something NOT everyone is entitled to. Yes, it makes tanks a bit elitist. But ... yes, that's the kind of stuff the job needs, I think. A birthright to special-snowflake a little. And by a little I mean "enough to offset doing the most sh*t job in an mmo and still feel awesome."

 

I'm not sure how else to explain it. If you made it available to all, the purpose would be void. Actually the result would be just... more stuff not chaning anything.

 

I have nothing against promoting tanking, just stating that it would be unfair to certain classes. Hypothetically, I would not be opposed to play tank with my Sage, but I cannot. And playing an archetype I do not like as much because of bonuses seems like an odd design choice that would probably turn a lot of people away.

Promoting is all great and good, but it has to be done sensitively.

 

I think that the underlying problem is not that people do not want to play tanks, but that they do not want to PUG with them, because some DPS can truly be DerPS blaming everyone but themselves.

 

Your suggestions were not bad, adding extra active companion slot might be interesting (although it could seriously mess up whatever remains of OW PvP) and fancier animations might draw some people as well. But in the end, even if people were drawn to the idea of tanking and found out that they get crapped on their heads by DerPS, they will not do it, or people would just pretend they are tanks to get the rewards...

[Aries_cz]

So a random suggestion would be solo tanking missions, perhaps where you have to defend npcs, taunt mobs off them, maintain threat on small groups to protect the vulnerable, something where you can get the chance to learn the basics of tanking. Because right now, regardless of the few here claiming to the contrary, the problem remains the people. When you find a low geared tank, nurture them, teach them, explain politely, because every time you chase one off, your queue gets longer

 

That might actually be nice for all classes. Some sort of "training rooms" with mini challenges like on Raptus in Dread Palace.

[Lorrimar]

And I am of the opinion that I am NOT WRONG, you do not need the terminals. There are plenty of times when they are not used. That dispels that claim right there. The existence of Tacticals, therefore, proves to me that Trinity is not required unless the mission is designed to require it.

 

You do not need heals any more than you would in the normal world fighting a serious boss or in a heroic. Having them is a bonus and perhaps saves you a pot, or saves you from making mistakes. But I have completed KUAT many times without a single heal...using strategy, both personal and group, even when fighting tough golds.

 

I'm sorry buddy, but I'm going to need video or I just flat out don't believe it. The bosses at the end of KDY hit fairly hard with just their normal attacks. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I have killed them in a 4 dps group while leveling an alt, but I have never seen a 4 dps group walk through one without having to use the healing stations a few times.

 

End game must comprise both casual friendly and hardcore friendly content to be viable and competitive in the MMO market IMO. There is room for both.

 

Unfortunately that's not really the case. There are only so many development man hours that we are all vying for. If they are building tactical flash points, then that's time that they take away from more regular FP's, HM FP's & Ops.

[mikebevo]

That might actually be nice for all classes. Some sort of "training rooms" with mini challenges like on Raptus in Dread Palace.

I really don't think something similar to Raptus would be helpful ...majority of the problem I see in flashpoint isn't HPS or DPS, it is awareness. At least from the healing challenge, it teaches nothing that will make someone a good healer.

 

Content that teaches people to prioritize, cleanse, use defensive cooldowns, interrupt, follow kill order and not stand in fire would be way more helpful, and guess what that all those can be learned in game leveling. Problem is the content is so easy now that you can level without learning any of that. Set challenge level back to the way it was during beta and launch and many of these issues would be fixed because people would have to learn to playing there class and role or beg for help in every boss fight.

[Jandi]

It's not because tanking is hard... It's actually the easiest role if you think about it... in competent group.

Followed by heals. DPS is actually the most difficult role to play correctly.

 

This depends entirely on the fight. In some, healing is the hardest job.

 

If you have to keep track of debuffs and deal with random spike damage, healing can be really hard.

If you have to look out for random AoE constantly and juggle buffs and debuffs doing good dps is hard.

If you have multiple tanking targets or random tank switches in addition to having to deal with AoE, or you have to move the boss around, tanking is hard.

 

These aren't role specific, but fight specific. However, by playing that role you are subject to them.

[Aries_cz]

I really don't think something similar to Raptus would be helpful ...majority of the problem I see in flashpoint isn't HPS or DPS, it is awareness. At least from the healing challenge, it teaches nothing that will make someone a good healer.

 

Content that teaches people to prioritize, cleanse, use defensive cooldowns, interrupt, follow kill order and not stand in fire would be way more helpful, and guess what that all those can be learned in game leveling. Problem is the content is so easy now that you can level without learning any of that. Set challenge level back to the way it was during beta and launch and many of these issues would be fixed because people would have to learn to playing there class and role or beg for help in every boss fight.

 

I used Raptus challenges as an example, they would have to be expanded upon, of course.

The DPS one teaches rotation to pump out as much DPS as possible, and to interrupt.

The Healer one is pure max HPS rotation

The tank one is about knowing how to soak up damage

Adding a fourth, Universal, with mechanics like "circles=bad", kill order, etc. would be needed.

 

And to be honest, leveling content was always easy. I played since launch, and i never needed any help with solo missions (I did die one them few times before learning what to do (like interrupt), but I never needed extra damage output from people or overlevel the content)

[Tsillah]

I don't believe it is a bad design choice at all. I think it is a design choice that falls in line with making content more accessible to casual players.

 

I think that having end game content that does not require trinity is a good move for many reasons, but that it should NOT be the only or primary design aspect of end game.

 

End game must comprise both casual friendly and hardcore friendly content to be viable and competitive in the MMO market IMO. There is room for both.

 

I saw GW2 which doesn't have the traditional trinity and it's boring as ****. All classes are basically the same so there is no point really in having diversity.

 

The only reason why we have tacticals is not to make things easier or more accessible for casuals. That by itself is a false assumption. The reason we have them is because there are too many DPS that sit in the q for hours waiting for a tank and a healer. The reason that they are not playing tanks or healers isn't just dificulty but appeal. Most of people tend to be simpletons that just want to shoot stuff. And there's your problem right away, because DPS is not just about shooting (or whacking) stuff.

 

FPs and SM Ops are not too difficult. They are easy when people actually take a little bit of interest in learning how to play. I refuse to accept that stupidity is the common denominator amongst casuals. The reality is though that people want to do endgame without putting any effort into it...and in SWTOR not that much effort is required to have a clue about your role. That's the worst part of it.

 

I get that some people just wanna charge in and kill everything, but that's not how a game like this is set up. There are plenty of casual players who do have an idea or are willing to learn one or two things. The problem I have as someone who plays all roles that I can easily see mistakes done by any role. Sure, everybody makes mistakes, but those who consistenly are clueless and refuse to listen...they don't even answer in chat when you talk to them...well, that's what makes it really annoying.

 

If someone is in a group and says, sorry guys I haven't done this before or please give me tips if I make mistakes are just fine for me. I'll gladly help and explain. But those are few and far between.

 

I understand the game needs to cater to casuals but it already does so more than a lot of other games. The only group that hasn't been totally addressed are the completely stupid and unwilling to learn category. Not sure if we want to open up too much content for that group.