Nerf TT / BO

[Slivovidze]

On the other hand, the cooldowns absolutely ARE the main threat to strikes, and it's what makes strikes not as efficient to take along in the first place. Strikes' higher survivability doesn't count for much when a battlescout opens up with all its offensive cooldowns, and all the other times their boost efficiency doesn't let them catch scouts to do much to them.

 

I honestly do think this is a gunship vs. scout thing. My fighter doesn't have any more problems with cooldown bursting scouts than it has with anything else. If they don't catch me by surprise, their CF runs out real fast to have serious uptime in a fight, and TT/BO alone aren't that strong.

 

I think we could say that the cooldowns are threat to anything that is caught by surprise. That, again, is justifiable to me, as scout somehow adapted to the role of GSF interceptor. If we had actual interceptor class to do this stuff, then this discussion would make much more sense.

[AceFirstCav]

Give me a break. The main danger of scouts to gunships isn't their offensive cooldowns - it's their boost efficiency, and the ability to stay on a gunship until its out of engine pool and forced to dogfight, where they lose due to much lower agility. The cooldowns just speed the inevitable kill along.

Isn´t that in fight GS vs Scout OK? GS win at long range, Scout win at close range. No need for TT/BO nerf.

On the other hand, the cooldowns absolutely ARE the main threat to strikes, and it's what makes strikes not as efficient to take along in the first place. Strikes' higher survivability doesn't count for much when a battlescout opens up with all its offensive cooldowns, and all the other times their boost efficiency doesn't let them catch scouts to do much to them.

Strike is able to fight back even at close range. You can´t catch it by surprise when sitting and calmly selecting its next target. Strike is fairly well moving and maneuvering. This is not much problem of Strike vs Scout.

 

But I wouldn´t mind if BO was active only against GS/Bombers. I´m not using it in dogfight anyway

[Verain]

Isn´t that in fight GS vs Scout OK? GS win at long range, Scout win at close range. No need for TT/BO nerf.

 

So you fly strikes as often as you fly scouts then? You find no power difference between them?

 

How about bombers? Do you find them totally fine versus scouts, after mines became single target?

 

This is not much problem of Strike vs Scout.

 

Ha! This is not at all true.

 

 

I honestly do think this is a gunship vs. scout thing.

 

I do not, and I would not have made this post if I thought this.

 

 

I find scouts capable of dealing shocking burst versus any ship type. Quads and pods is a gunship issue (and a bomber issue), and is also pretty effective against strikes. If I thought this was just "gunships get burst" I wouldn't bother saying anything. But I get that it's an easy argument to try to trivialize the truth- I do my best on gunships, after all.

 

 

But Stasie is in this thread agreeing, and he's played more any any ship than you have probably played on all your ships combined. Sheep is in here as well, and while he plays a lot of gunship, he also plays a lot of battle scout.

 

 

 

And no, this isn't just a battle scout issue. The only scout that isn't wildly bursty is the type 3 scout, and that's because he has access to no secondary weapons of import. If he had clusters or rocket pods he'd make the list.

 

 

I'm not going to say that the only balance issue is TT/BO, or scouts. But I am going to say, that needs addressing. Most threads cry about something that is second order and minor, and when the devs DO nerf those things, they nerf them HARD. We need mild nerfs or moderate redesigns of these components, because they define the meta. If your ship can't survive against these cooldowns, you don't fly it or respect it. Scouts and scouts alone can walk into a bar, press all their powers of 2 (1,2,4) and deal +70% more damage while being basically unhittable and cancelling a missile lock, saving their three button for an escape after a kill. "Put on my tab!" the scout screams, power diving / barrel rolling away, or "a round for everyone!" as he retros and continues his assault.

 

 

 

The rest of the meta won't be helped until scout burst is addressed. It's the number one issue. Number two is strike power being too low. Once you've fixed those, you might- MAYBE- have some mild changes for a railgun.

[Nemarus]

Scouts and scouts alone can walk into a bar, press all their powers of 2 (1,2,4) and deal +70% more damage while being basically unhittable and cancelling a missile lock, saving their three button for an escape after a kill. "Put on my tab!" the scout screams, power diving / barrel rolling away, or "a round for everyone!" as he retros and continues his assault.

 

 

 

The rest of the meta won't be helped until scout burst is addressed. It's the number one issue. Number two is strike power being too low. Once you've fixed those, you might- MAYBE- have some mild changes for a railgun.

 

At least the Scout has to enter the bar to actually kill someone.

 

Unless your #2 buff to Strikes makes them the ultimate Gunship killing machine, then you can't change #1 without also going #3.

 

Right now a Gunship can deal crippling burst damage without ever being at risk itself. And if the Scout that comes rushing to kill it can't actually retaliate in kind (because the Gunship immediately pops DF and/or its engine ability upon being attacked), then it essentially can just keep chaining ambush alpha strikes for the entirety of a match. At worst, any attempt at retaliation results in a delay as the Gunship flits about LOS objects until its allies destroy whomever is chasing it. The Gunship itself never dies--at worst its DPS is slightly lowered. I do not think this is okay. The ease with which a Gunship can quickly rack up kills needs to be balanced by the ease with which at least one class can kill it back. Right now Scouts are the only ones that can do that, and they need their burst to do so against Gunship pilots of even basic skill.

 

I am not saying I like the current Scout/Gunship meta. I don't. I think its emphasis on surprise burst damage frustrates both parties, not to mention making Strikes impossible.

 

But you can't get rid of a fragile, short range class' burst damage without simultaneously considering the 15km, armor piercing, shield-piercing, hit-for-1760 weapon. I think the Scout's offensive cooldowns and the rail gun's extreme range are both terrible for the game. It is why new pilots have such a hard time, and it is why people enjoy Strike Night so much.

 

I would love for BioWare to axe TT, BO and BLC's from the game, and cut the rail gun range to 10km. Heavy handed? Sure. But it sure would be fun to see the pendulum swing fully and forcibly from two classes which have dominated, and at various times ruined the fun of the game, for months at a time.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Nemarus

[dancezwithnubz]

Scouts and scouts alone can walk into a bar, press all their powers of 2 (1,2,4) and deal +70% more damage while being basically unhittable and cancelling a missile lock, saving their three button for an escape after a kill. "Put on my tab!" the scout screams, power diving / barrel rolling away, or "a round for everyone!" as he retros and continues his assault.

 

If you see a scout coming at you popping all their cooldowns, RUN AWAY. staying and fighting is a fool's errand. get clear for 3s and you're free of their distortion field, another 3s and that oh, so bursty Concentrated Fire has worn off and won't be available for another minute.

Head for your teammates & hope one of them will pick up on your pursuer (heck, you have VOIP, call for help).

If they sneak up on you while you're concentrating on someone else and start blasting, MOVE. amazing how many gunships try to disto field their way through it to get off that extra railgun shot. Otherwise, consider it a fair exchange for the gunship being able to roflstomp them from 15km away.

Once you've blown those cooldowns, scouts are rather flimsy and fragile.

 

I'm all for giving Strikes a buff to bring them up to gunship/scout levels of 'power' (for want of a better term), but given scouts can still get red-hulled by a single slug shot they never even knew was coming, or a seismic mine leaving them with full shields and almost no hull, vulnerable to anyone with any shield piercing weapon (like, for example, the heavy lasers on that minelayer who's just seismic mined them).

 

I find the most dangerous gunship opponents are the ones who rarely take more than a shot or two before re-locating and the ones who can dogfight and don't mind getting in close with bursts.

 

There are four different classes, each with a distinct role to play in what are TEAM games.

 

If gunships, strikes and bombers could all boost as far, fast and efficiently as scouts, would that be A Good Thing or would that be A Bad Thing?

 

I submit it would be very bad all round. classes would lose one of their main distinctive differences.

 

A scout is a fast, agile recon ship capable of dealing good damage, very fast, a couple of times a minute. The tradeoff is a paper thin hull.

 

A gunship is a long range artillery platform, capable of dealing out horrific damage at long/medium range with the added advantages of shotgun close range defense. The drawback? not as agile and lacking the boost range of the scout.

 

If the gunship gets the drop on a scout, the scout has to trust to the RNG gods not to get blasted form the sky. Not a lot else the scout can do. You can't even tell who's shooting you until they hit you, by which time it may be too late. I've learned never to ignore those blue or red flashes that tell me a railgun just missed.

 

If the scout gets the drop on a gunship with full CD popping, the gunship has more chance of surviving that encounter than a scout does after a long range slug up the whatsit.

 

I think both scouts and gunships are in a reasonably good place right now, some minor tweaks would be nice but I'd rather see Strikes given some love.

 

Yeah, lets buff Strikes. I'm all in favour of that concept.

 

I seriously don't think you've thought this through very well.

[DresG]

I don't think the real problem are TT/BO but rather CF, despite the fact that its available to every ship, Type 1 and 2 scouts benefit the most from it. So I guess you could say the combination of TT/BO and CF is what needs a nerf, maybe making the cooldowns exclusive to each other, as in not being able to activate them simultaneously.

 

I would prefer "everyone" getting nerfed to SF levels than seeing SFs buffed to match scouts and gunships. This is coming from a guy that loves his Type 1 SF (unless I'm imp side, the Rycer is hideous).

 

BTW, SF are fine, they don't need a buff, not even to rapids.

[Camelpockets]

My opinion: In a much shorter form.

 

1. Buff Strikes.

 

2. Don't nerf TT/BO because of GS/Bomber premades.

 

Nuff said.

[DresG]

2. Don't nerf TT/BO because of GS/Bomber premades.

 

To fix that we could try to mimic the method used by not-so-oldschool-fps like ET and limit the amount of players that can choose certain ships. Everyone jumping on Field Ops to call for airstrikes during a certain stage of the match was a common occurrence on some servers, with a cap to Field Ops the match ran smoothly and everyone had fun.

 

Sadly, people would cry and ragequit if something like this ever happens, because winning is what counts, right?

Edited July 7, 2014 by DresG

[Fractalsponge]

To fix that we could try to mimic the method used by not-so-oldschool-fps like ET and limit the amount of players that can choose certain ships. Everyone jumping on Field Ops to call for airstrikes during a certain stage of the match was a common occurrence on some servers, with a cap to Field Ops the match ran smoothly and everyone had fun.

 

Sadly, people would cry and ragequit if something like this ever happens, because winning is what counts, right?

 

Yeah, that'll go over well. Let's expand it so you can't play your sniper/mara/sorc/jugg if there are too many in ops, or warzones! Great!

 

And, you know, that's funny - I thought this was a competition - winning IS what counts.

[dancezwithnubz]

To fix that we could try to mimic the method used by not-so-oldschool-fps like ET and limit the amount of players that can choose certain ships. Everyone jumping on Field Ops to call for airstrikes during a certain stage of the match was a common occurrence on some servers, with a cap to Field Ops the match ran smoothly and everyone had fun.

 

Sadly, people would cry and ragequit if something like this ever happens, because winning is what counts, right?

 

I would much prefer an opt-in, built in VOIP system as the 'counter to bomber/gs premades' rather than limiting ship choices.

[DresG]

And, you know, that's funny - I thought this was a competition - winning IS what counts.

Actually, it's a game. Having fun is what counts, or would you tell me that you only derive pleasure from looking at a green tinted scoreboard with the word Victory rather than actually flying a ship against pilots of similar skill? but let's pretend rhetoric arguments are here just for a random, angry future forum poster to reply to (and possibly necro) instead of something to be taken as food for thought in the present.

 

I would much prefer an opt-in, built in VOIP system as the 'counter to bomber/gs premades' rather than limiting ship choices.

A VOIP system to counter bomber and gs premades would help just veteran pilots. New pilots, even if they had a mean to communicate effectively, don't know how to position themselves to kill bombers or flank gs. GSF suffers most from the steep learning curve that drives new players away from this game mode, while a VOIP system would be nice, it wouldn't really help new players deal with the previously mentioned premades.

Edited July 7, 2014 by DresG

[Fractalsponge]

Actually, it's a game. Having fun is what counts, or would you tell me that you only derive pleasure from looking at a green tinted scoreboard with the word Victory rather than actually flying a ship against pilots of similar skill? but let's pretend rhetoric arguments are here just for a random, angry future forum poster to reply to (and possibly necro) instead of something to be taken as food for thought in the present.

 

Poll your team, and let me know how many of them say "you know, we were really hoping to win, but since you didn't bring your optimal ship and we ended up losing, that's ok, as long as you had fun bro." Some people are just there to mess about, and w eall do it at times, but I'm guessing the vast majority do play to win, and expect a certain amount of the same from their team.

[Asbetos]

Why should they have a chance to react to being attacked before getting red-hulled or destroyed, while I don't have any against their attacks?

 

Because you have a huge amount of evasion that has a very high chance of making the railgun miss the first shot and there's your warning while the BLCs can easily 2-shot a GS on their own. And it's not just the GS, I'm having the same annoying problem on the Rycer, red hull before i even know he's shooting at me.

 

Pretty much everything this guy said. Funny that I, the average Joe pilot, can with more or less success counter everything without feeling like stuff needs to be nerfed, a top-notch pilot of Verain's magnitude feels a need for nerfs. Hell, I can survive those bursty freaks in a gosh darn Comet Breaker! If they take ship that shuts you down, take a ship that will shut them down. I think there is not "beat all" ship in GSF. Even the T1 gunships aren't like that.

 

Yes, pretty much every top-notch, as well as most decent/good pilots feel there's a need for a nerf.

 

By "sneak on" I meant the miment when he is shooting someone else. When that happens I assume I have that "sneak attack" advantage - the second to land that one burst and hopefully kill him.

 

Yeah, well, stop whining and actually WORK for your kills. Every scout pilot that knows what he's doing can catch every GS pilot of equal skill and squeeze in a BLC shot and a cluster missile here and there, not to mention SFs here.

 

At the end... wow, I really didn't expect you to be whining, I expected that from someone else of the Progenitor Rep pilots.

[dancezwithnubz]

A VOIP system to counter bomber and gs premades would help just veteran pilots. New pilots, even if they had a mean to communicate effectively, don't know how to position themselves to kill bombers or flank gs. GSF suffers most from the steep learning curve that drives new players away from this game mode, while a VOIP system would be nice, it wouldn't really help new players deal with the previously mentioned premades.

 

VOIP would help veteran pilots explain things to new pilots on the fly. Sure, it won't turn a team of noobs into a rockin squadron capable of dealing with a VOIP squadron of veterans, but it will at least assist newer pilots to climb that learning curve and become better pilots, faster.

 

I feel bad when someone pipes up in pre-launch chat saying "i'm a noob, how do I play this?" and I only have time to reply "shoot the red dots, go read the SWTOR forums".

 

to which the general response is "what are the swtor forums?"

[Verain]

"bomber gunship premades" isn't a reason to keep something OP. Premades do use scouts too.

 

 

Hell, I can survive those bursty freaks in a gosh darn Comet Breaker!

 

Unlikely. You are likely thinking of a much lower skill of pilot than yourself. A good scout can score a kill in around a second at times, and under depending. TT/BO aren't a problem in the hands of terrible pilots.

 

 

 

This is one of the reasons I'd like the cooldowns to become something a bit different- something passive, and reduce the active. It's good that some things have a skill ceiling that is high, but the payoff for the properly executed burst is too good.

[dancezwithnubz]

This is one of the reasons I'd like the cooldowns to become something a bit different- something passive, and reduce the active. It's good that some things have a skill ceiling that is high, but the payoff for the properly executed burst is too good.

 

got any ideas what form these passives might take?

without something constructive, this whole thread is pretty much JAWGP (Just Another Whinging Gunship Pilot).

[phoenixjon]

got any ideas what form these passives might take?

without something constructive, this whole thread is pretty much JAWGP (Just Another Whinging Gunship Pilot).

 

Dancezwithnubz is JASNPTTHIAG (Just Another Scout Noob Pilot That Thinks He is Actually Good)

Edited July 7, 2014 by phoenixjon

[Verain]

Actually most of the threads seem to be Tunnel Scout Brigade.

 

 

I'm not going to sit here and try to design some huge thing to get ignored. Simply put, passives could increase accuracy passively, and blaster overcharge could increase damage passively. Both could grant a small defensive boost when active, which TT can already be talented to do, and BO could, say, redirect part of damage taken to shields.

 

 

The point is that the devs don't need me, or anyone, to come up with a specific cool idea about how to take part of the power of these systems and make it passive- that part is trivial. The point is that such a change needs to happen- the details are up for debate.

[Hermetist]

Well, as a scout user I feel a need to put some feedback on this idea. I would say nothing about BO, cause I don't use it, but - whiners, hands off from TT.

 

About pilot skill I would totally agree - it matters damn musch more than TT. I'll tell the obvious thing, but the battle scout is a kind of fast glass cannon which does not forgive bad skill. It's fast, yes, it's glass, yes, but it's cannon. Remove the crits from it, and it will be not that much of a cannon. Gunships have their edge, the range of their railgun. Bombers also have their edge, those mines and extremely nice drones (drone bomber is my second ship, btw). Fighters... well, fighters have the best control potential in right hands. And what shall become the scout if you'll remove their own edge, the burst potential? NOTHING. The most skill dependent ship without possibility to score a kills. I tried, before getting to the battlescout, to fly usual scout (Blackbolt) without TT and what did I found? Exactly the picture it was told about - you can fly damn fast and good, but you have no strength in your spear, to say it politely.

 

Scout is not the ship to control the distance as the fighter does, having a three weapons for a close/mid/far range, or to guard a place. It's control potential is limited by it's speed and by the long lock-on of the thermite torpedo, the only far range weapon it has. But the same speed and short range of most it's weapons make the tactics obvious. And without really good crit boosting the scout will not be able to fullfill it's tactics - to put a punch when it's in the range. The time of scout being in the range is limited enough usually, so it gives the pilot not that much time.

 

As for me, TT it is good as it is now. It needs not any tweaks or nerfs. Nerf is needed to whining and inability to find a ship you're comfortable with - I tried several different ships before I found out that I'm comfortable with just two (S-13 Sting and B-4D Legion, battlescout and drone bomber respectively). Nerfs are not the solution in this case.

[Verain]

So, to get this straight, the ship you "happen to be comfortable with" is the one with the best cooldown, the best burst, the best maneuverability, two short missile break cooldowns, armor ignore, and the ability to crit much of the time for 1.75x, a cooldown with 50% uptime.

 

 

I guess it's just coincidence that you didn't settle on the type 3 scout, type 2 gunship, or strike fighter.

 

 

 

 

No. These abilities are OP. They shift the meta, they can kill in subsecond times, they determine what ships can be fielded and which cooldowns can be used, and how the game is played.

 

 

 

No one wants to make scouts bad. But these abilities need to be nerfed or redesigned.

 

 

 

 

Comfortable with indeed. I'm sure you're more "comfortable" with TT than a 1 button that switches you to rapid fire lasers. Golleegee!

[DresG]

The most skill dependent ship without possibility to score a kills.

I lol-ed.

 

I think BO would be fine without the crit increase and TT without it giving the possibility to crit on secondary weapons (pods)

[Ramalina]

Well, as a scout user I feel a need to put some feedback on this idea. I would say nothing about BO, cause I don't use it, but - whiners, hands off from TT.

 

About pilot skill I would totally agree - it matters damn musch more than TT. I'll tell the obvious thing, but the battle scout is a kind of fast glass cannon which does not forgive bad skill. It's fast, yes, it's glass, yes, but it's cannon. Remove the crits from it, and it will be not that much of a cannon. Gunships have their edge, the range of their railgun. Bombers also have their edge, those mines and extremely nice drones (drone bomber is my second ship, btw). Fighters... well, fighters have the best control potential in right hands. And what shall become the scout if you'll remove their own edge, the burst potential? NOTHING. The most skill dependent ship without possibility to score a kills. I tried, before getting to the battlescout, to fly usual scout (Blackbolt) without TT and what did I found? Exactly the picture it was told about - you can fly damn fast and good, but you have no strength in your spear, to say it politely.

 

Scout is not the ship to control the distance as the fighter does, having a three weapons for a close/mid/far range, or to guard a place. It's control potential is limited by it's speed and by the long lock-on of the thermite torpedo, the only far range weapon it has. But the same speed and short range of most it's weapons make the tactics obvious. And without really good crit boosting the scout will not be able to fullfill it's tactics - to put a punch when it's in the range. The time of scout being in the range is limited enough usually, so it gives the pilot not that much time.

 

As for me, TT it is good as it is now. It needs not any tweaks or nerfs. Nerf is needed to whining and inability to find a ship you're comfortable with - I tried several different ships before I found out that I'm comfortable with just two (S-13 Sting and B-4D Legion, battlescout and drone bomber respectively). Nerfs are not the solution in this case.

 

I'll chime in with the point that as a rule the ships with the best speed and maneuverability are considered the easiest to dogfight in, not the ones requiring the most skill to dogfight in.

 

For truly skillful dogfighting try on a bomber with heavy lasers and proton torpedoes, don't use mines, and try not to hug cover all that much.

 

Type one and type two scouts have a clearly detectable hardware advantage over other ships, just as some gunships and bombers have in the past.

 

It's a combination of being able to use superior boost endurance and maneuverability to make it impossible for other classes to escape, very powerful and plentiful defensive cooldowns, and excessive burst damage output.

 

A nerf to TT/BO only addresses the burst damage aspect, but at the moment that's by far the most problematic one.

 

There's been a trend in past GSF balance issues of many problems stemming from stacking and/or chaining too many too powerful cooldowns. So it makes some sense to decrease the cooldown magnitude and make more of the benefit passive and constant.

[Kuciwalker]

I'll chime in with the point that as a rule the ships with the best speed and maneuverability are considered the easiest to dogfight in, not the ones requiring the most skill to dogfight in.

 

Yeah, but you'd be wrong. The fact is that scouts have a higher skill cap than strikes because they are capable of doing more things.

[dancezwithnubz]

And what shall become the scout if you'll remove their own edge, the burst potential? NOTHING. The most skill dependent ship without possibility to score a kills. I tried, before getting to the battlescout, to fly usual scout (Blackbolt) without TT and what did I found? Exactly the picture it was told about - you can fly damn fast and good, but you have no strength in your spear, to say it politely.

 

I have to 100% disagree with you here.

I score lots of kills and do lots of damage in my Booster Recharge build Blackbolt and my Tensor Field build Bloodmark.

 

I agree that the combination of TT or BO along with Concentrated Fire is a little heavy handed, but not to the point where they deserve a nerf.

 

If TT/BO get nerfed, then railguns should also get nerfed. How about no more AoE from Ion, remove the armour & shield piercing from Slug and give Plasma less damage?

[Verain]

Yeah, but you'd be wrong. The fact is that scouts have a higher skill cap than strikes because they are capable of doing more things.

 

I will agree that scouts have a higher skillcap than strikes, similary to Thor having a higher skillcap than a badger.

 

Ramalina's gist- that a scout dogfights with essentially no effort compared to a strike- is correct. The scout out turns the strike, after all.

 

 

The scout has a higher skill cap because it can do more things than the strike. But to beat a scout with a strike in a dogfight requires a skill differential in favor of the strike pilot- too big of one entirely, if you ask me.

 

 

If TT/BO get nerfed, then railguns should also get nerfed.

 

TT+BO both need nerfs. They need nerfs because scouts are too good, and when player correctly are far more devastating than they deserve to be. A bad scout can't use TT or BO properly, but a good scout gets way too much out of them.

 

 

This is not at all related to railguns, or gunships, or anything else. Those things could probably use some small tweaks too. Your ideas are all terrible and ludicrous, of course- "how about we take away ion aoe?"

 

 

I've heard that plenty from people who don't understand a lot about the game. Much more importantly, there's been a lot of nerfbegging over railguns, usually by players who don't understand anything about gunships, and I'm sure it's been discussed to death. Importantly, we need a thread about THE biggest balance issue- scout burst. It's not good to let it sit in the middle of larger threads with no mention.

 

This thread isn't about deleting scouts, or making them gimp. It's about making the game better with game balance. You are just here wishing nerfs on things that don't need them, because to you this is just more pvp.

 

We want game balance. Scout burst is too good. We want it nerfed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

We don't want scouts to go away, or be food.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Verain