Suggestion: Give railguns Accuracy bonus/penalty based on zoom in/out

[Nemarus]

TLDR: This suggestion would make it so that when you are in railgun sniper view, zooming in from the default view will give you an Accuracy bonus (+X%) based on how much you zoom in. Zooming out from the default view will give you an Accuracy penalty (-Y%) based on how much you zoom out. Remaining at the default zoom would leave you at the default Accuracy (0% bonus/penalty) for the range you are shooting at. The exact values for X and Y would have to be tested and tuned, but as a starting point, I think max X = +10% and max Y = -10% is reasonable.

 

This would make railgun zooming a meaningful mechanic (instead of a trap), would make railgun offense gameplay a bit deeper, and would allow Gunship pilots with good aim and target prediction to further differentiate themselves from those with bad aim (since sharpshooters could elect to zoom in to mitigate a target's Evasion).

 

Background/Reasoning:

Currently, the very first thing you should do when going into railgun sniper-view is to zoom all the way out. Why? Because it makes it far easier to track a moving target (their movements become slower/smaller in your widened field of view).

 

In any other shooter game, while zooming out makes the target easier to track, it also makes it smaller and thus more difficult to actually hit. But because of some eccentricities of the way it is built, that isn't true in GSF. No matter how far or close, no matter how zoomed in or zoomed out, the apparent size (the hitbox) of the target remains the same. The devs confirmed this in the last GSF Twitch stream.

 

All weapons suffer an Accuracy penalty for longer ranges--this somewhat simulates the fact that a more distant target is "smaller" and thus harder to hit. But as far as we know, that Accuracy penalty only applies to literal range to target--it does not come into play for railgun zoom levels. Thus as soon as you enter railgun mode, there is literally no reason not to zoom out all the way. If you don't, you're making your life much harder.

 

Now some may say that putting a -Y% Accuracy penalty on the full zoomed out view is a nerf to Gunships, since all experienced Gunship pilots currently always zoom out all the way. I do not deny that. But in exchange for that nerf, you're getting a buff: the ability to eat through +X% of Evasion if you zoom in. And that, in turn, would allow skilled Gunships to more reliably hit Scouts, who rely on Evasion much more heavily than others.

 

I haven't used a railgun seriously since pre-2.6, when I mastered my T1's, so I'm not going to lobby hard on this one way or the other. But I'm curious how career Gunshippers would feel about this change. I leave it to them to determine whether they'd appreciate this extra layer of gameplay, but I personally think it would allow the more skilled Gunship pilots to further differentiate themselves from the pack. And it would move railguns to be a little more realistic, at least when compared to other sniper rifles in other games.

 

If a change like this is not made, then I really think BioWare ought to just default the railgun view to be zoomed out all the way, so that it's not a trap for players who don't fully grasp the arcana of GSF's underlying engine.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Nemarus

[Kuciwalker]

I would pretty much always zoom in all the way.

[Nemarus]

I would pretty much always zoom in all the way.

 

And I would expect a best of the best Gunship pilot like you to do that.

 

That being said, my personal experience as an average railgunner is that following a target with a railgun fully zoomed in is a lot harder than doing so when zoomed out, even at 15km. It might be more difficult to keep then in the center of your scope, which means you might be suffering a Tracking Penalty.

 

So against an especially mobile target, it might end up being a wash--you get an Accuracy bonus for zoom, but you suffer an Accuracy penalty from Tracking. Of course, if you're really good at keeping your target centered, or if your target has a moment of vulnerability where they aren't moving laterally, then you benefit. That all seems like an interesting interplay that increases the skill dimension of railgunning significantly.

 

And as for the Scout pilot being targeted by a railgun, it creates a more interesting game as well. Let's say you zoom all the way in to counter my Evasion--because I'm engaged with someone else and not flying particularly evasively, you're able to land a max-zoom shot on me.

 

If I turn directly toward you then, you can remain fully zoomed in, and you're undoubtedly going to kill me unless I use a perfectly timed Evasion cooldown. That's good.

 

On the other hand, if I go evasive and start sweeping toward you at a wide angle, this gets me out of your scope unless you zoom out. By zooming out, you get me in view again, but now you've got to worry about the zoom Accuracy penalty. Maybe you stay zoomed out only to center me again, then rapidly zoom in to snap off a high Accuracy shot.

 

Regardless of who wins this encounter, both participants--both Scout and Gunship--are more engaged and have incentives to fly/zoom/target intelligently. As such, the outcome of such an encounter will sway more reliably toward the higher skilled pilot.

 

Seems like a win-win for skilled pilots of all ships.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Nemarus

[TrinityLyre]

I like the idea and find it interesting - it definitely would add a new layer to playing gunship offensively. My only concern is that the penalties/bonuses aren't enormous, I don't think gunships are in need of a drastic nerf of any kind. The only way to figure out something like that would be to play with it, I think.

 

As always, I'm torn between supporting a change/interesting new idea like this or asking for balance to be done first. I think I'd rather see scout systems "fixed" before anything else, of any kind, comes (and this is coming from someone who abuses them endlessly). The list of "necessary" fixes is rather short, though, and who knows what they have on their plate for GSF? I'd certainly be interested in finding out. Maybe I'll make a "tuning requests" thread or something, though I think that would just end up being yet another moaning thread.

Edited July 2, 2014 by TrinityLyre

[Nemarus]

I like the idea and find it interesting - it definitely would add a new layer to playing gunship offensively. My only concern is that the penalties/bonuses aren't enormous, I don't think gunships are in need of a drastic nerf of any kind. The only way to figure out something like that would be to play with it, I think.

 

Well the nice thing is that, if you're shooting at default zoom, there is no change. And I suspect a great many Gunship pilots do that out of ignorance, or faith that the devs would not drop them into a trap every time they right-click to enter sniper mode.

 

Maybe I'll make a "tuning requests" thread or something, though I think that would just end up being yet another moaning thread.

 

I think you and Verain worry too much about what is going on in fourth page replies. I think the devs read the GSF forums, but I'm pretty sure they don't go more than a page or two deep into replies, especially once the usual off-topic debates and personality conflicts are kindled.

 

Craft a good OP (and do so early in the morning, since I suspect devs forum-surf around lunchtime), watch the first batch of reactions and reply as necessary. But after that initial day or two of responses, every thread is garbage. And by no means am I claiming innocence in that regard. I do try and stay on topic at least for the first page or two though.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Nemarus

[FridgeLM]

Cool, so they'll literally never hit anything ever again because targets move too quickly to be consistently acquired while zoomed in.

 

Gunships are fine. If anything, they should just remove the zoom because it's pointless.

Edited July 2, 2014 by FridgeLM

[Nemarus]

Cool, so they'll literally never hit anything ever again because targets move too quickly to be consistently acquired while zoomed in.

 

Gunships are fine.

 

Yes, hitting targets while zoomed out will be slightly more difficult.

 

But at the same time, with practice and the right situation, you could mitigate a Scout's Evasion.

 

Essentially, you'd have a new axis of choice and skill progression--you can leverage your manual aiming prowess in order to reduce the sway of the RNG. It increases the skill ceiling for the class.

 

I don't think it raises the skill floor for the class, since I think those at the bottom of the skill floor are already shooting from the default zoom level, and since they would continue to do so, they would feel no change.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Nemarus

[FridgeLM]

Essentially, you'd have a new axis of choice and skill progression--you can leverage your manual aiming prowess in order to reduce the sway of the RNG. It increases the skill ceiling for the class

 

Only in theory, and this is like setting the standard for micro in starcraft 2 to be at the level of the Automaton 2000.

 

In practice, a non-zero amount of lateral movement by a target in a zoomed-in railgun's scope sends it careening off the screen. Literally almost nobody will get a hit this way unless the target is stationary or flying straight forward with no course deviation.

[SammyGStatus]

Yes, hitting targets while zoomed out will be slightly more difficult.

 

But at the same time, with practice and the right situation, you could mitigate a Scout's Evasion.

 

Best way in current meta to mitigate evasion is to rock Wingman as a crew skill...

 

I'm completely the opposite of Kuci - I always zoom way the hell out b/c you can see a whole lot more, can track easier, and overall the zoom seems silly since zooming in has no real advantage (besides close up of booms!)

 

It's definitely an interesting idea, and I've thought that there should be an advantage to zooming in, but I've also heard an interesting proposal from Tsuk to eliminate zoom altogether, and eliminate the charge up while sacrificing each shot's damage. Damage per shot will decrease but DPS will increase (since they wouldn't have to be turrets). If only we had a place like the PTS to test out multiple "flavors" of gunships. That would be mint

 

Still, cool concept. Would love the devs to give this some thought

[Kuciwalker]

I'm completely the opposite of Kuci - I always zoom way the hell out b/c you can see a whole lot more, can track easier, and overall the zoom seems silly since zooming in has no real advantage (besides close up of booms!)

 

I used the subjunctive. I zoom out right now.

[Verain]

As written, this is Nerf gunships with 10% accuracy debuff.

 

 

That's this whole thread so far.

 

 

Ok, but the idea? Is cool. The zoomed out version- otherwise known as "what every gunship does right now"- shouldn't be nerfed much, because you don't buy a lot on the flipside. -5% accuracy is about the most you could get.

 

The zoomed in version should probably give commensurate reward with the difficulty, so it would definitely be more than 5%- mirroring this wouldn't make sense. Hitting with max zoom is almost impossible, after all.

[Nemarus]

As written, this is Nerf gunships with 10% accuracy debuff.

 

 

That's this whole thread so far.

 

 

Ok, but the idea? Is cool. The zoomed out version- otherwise known as "what every gunship does right now"- shouldn't be nerfed much, because you don't buy a lot on the flipside. -5% accuracy is about the most you could get.

 

The zoomed in version should probably give commensurate reward with the difficulty, so it would definitely be more than 5%- mirroring this wouldn't make sense. Hitting with max zoom is almost impossible, after all.

 

Like I said, +/-10% was just a starting point for discussion. -5/+10 seems reasonable too. Heck, maybe even -5/+15. I'm not too scared of giving a big Accuracy bonus on the zoom, since in the end it's going to mostly only hurt Scouts.

 

And even if I'm flying a Scout, I'd prefer that a Gunship is well-incentivized to zoom in to try and hit me--that way it becomes more about their aiming skill vs. my evasive flying, and less about RNG Accuracy vs. Evasion.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Nemarus

[vladunk]

Just curious what the GS aces think would be the effect on gunship duels and hitting through distortion field with max zoom.

[Loc_n_lol]

I think it sounds fair and balanced.

-not a gunship fan

Edited July 3, 2014 by Loc_n_lol

[dancezwithnubz]

i'd suggest -10% zoomed out to 0% penalty zoomed all the way in.

 

seriously, gunships don't need no buffs, but a slight nerf certainly won't hurt them.

[Nemarus]

i'd suggest -10% zoomed out to 0% penalty zoomed all the way in.

 

seriously, gunships don't need no buffs, but a slight nerf certainly won't hurt them.

 

From someone who hardly ever uses a railgun, let me just say ...

 

It's fine that you express your opinion, but I would hope others can choose more constructive posts to respond to, lest this thread devolve into the usual class warfare drivel.

 

For example, this is a great question, whose responses would provide useful information to any dev who might consider this proposal:

Just curious what the GS aces think would be the effect on gunship duels and hitting through distortion field with max zoom.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Nemarus

[dancezwithnubz]

From someone who hardly ever uses a railgun, let me just say ...

 

i think you're right to suggest some sort of accuracy penalty when using the zoom function, but i seriously don't see how giving gunships any kind of buff on railguns is good for anyone.

 

your proposal effectively penalises everyone. especially those who can already get one-shot (or close to it), while giving gunship pilots no effective penalty other than needing to adjust to a small change in playstyle.

 

Gunships are already the most cried about, QQ inducing class for newcomers to learn to deal with. Making their lives in any way easier is, imho, bad for the game overall.

 

i like the general idea, but don't make it a buff. make it an overall debuff that can be countered with a little practice and skill.

 

if a gunny wants an accuracy buff, they can spend their co-pilot slot on Wingman.

 

oh, and FYI: i do let off railguns reasonably frequently. i just find gunships boring to fly and, in general, boring to fight.

[Ryuku-sama]

i think you're right to suggest some sort of accuracy penalty when using the zoom function, but i seriously don't see how giving gunships any kind of buff on railguns is good for anyone.

 

your proposal effectively penalises everyone. especially those who can already get one-shot (or close to it), while giving gunship pilots no effective penalty other than needing to adjust to a small change in playstyle.

 

Did you ever try to track someone zoomed in ???

[dancezwithnubz]

Did you ever try to track someone zoomed in ???

 

yeah. it's not easy & there's no incentive to try.

the 'new trick' pilots would need to learn is to zoom out for tracking & acquisition, then zoom in for the shot.

[Verain]

While it would be great for there to be a reward for zooming, any change like this would need to not impact the zoomed out mode. Scouts need moderate nerfs, and gunships need possibly small nerfs, and you wouldn't want to do that.

 

Note that Nemarus made this thread to talk about the idea of adding this to the game- the goal wouldn't be to make the zoom mandatory, after all.

 

 

 

Now, what if this was prelaunch? In that case, a fully redesigned gunship could incorporate this stuff as mandatory. But that gunship would be a far cry from today's, because he would be given the tools to actually make that happen against good pilots. On live, a full zoom in is essentially impossible to hit with- if gunships had to play on full zoom, the class would be trash, worst in game.

 

 

I think that this idea of Nemarus's is one of the best design ideas I've ever heard, by the way. It simply implies a cool set of restrictions and powers for gunships. I just don't think it can be tacked on effectively. Anything messing with the zoomed out version is mostly a nerf, and buffing the zoom in enough to make it worth using would trivialize evasion, which is the scout's primary defense.

 

I actually would like the devs to look into a redesign to make this sort of thing reasonable. It just sounds like a super cool playstyle, I totally bet it could work.

[Altheran]

While the idea is nice/logical/seems fun/whatever, the problem I can see coming is that the zoom system is probably completely cut off of anything mechanical, and it means that it should be changed so that the server checks/validates zoom change, which seems impractical (zoom lag)...

... Or risk some illegitimate, false, "max accuracy shots".

 

In my opinion, it's a fine concept but I think it would be simply better if there wasn't any zoom at all, and so probably no scope view... Just the anchoring and the "Rail Charge" bar.

[Verain]

Possible a concern. I think you are correct that the current version of zoom isn't mirrored server side, but I don't know whether that would be hard or easy to fix.