Devs need to be aware of this Reddit Thread

[Elfa]

Look people we've been though all of this before. Even my guild, Ascendant is taking a hit to WS and other games. However, we've been through this before. Last summer was the same only worse IMO. People both in the game and in BW are taking vacations in RL and ingame. Things are slow but big things are also coming, just like last year.

 

I'm taking this opportunity to catch up on my single player gaming and attending to RL hobbies. Yes, knowing that things are on the way and BW being silent sucks, but we'll make it through and those who don't, well, that's on them.

 

Stay positive guys, it'll all be good.

[mikeetoe]

I think people just have to realize what this game is and is not when it comes down to it. SWTOR is absolutely the definition of a single player MMO. Almost all of the content is built around the single player story experience, as it should be. I am one of many people that came to this game from my love of the original Knights of the Old Republic series, so for me I enjoy the single player experience immensely, as well as some of the multi-player aspects. If you are looking for top line end game content, it just isn't going to be found here. You also need to realize that as a free to play game, the devs are going to always cater towards content that is going to boost their revenue; not make the hardcore player base a happy one. They can make infinitely more money developing cartel market items and such than they can spending the time and effort to make more end game content.

[Andryah]

I think people just have to realize what this game is and is not when it comes down to it. SWTOR is absolutely the definition of a single player MMO. Almost all of the content is built around the single player story experience, as it should be.

 

It's a single player "friendly" MMO. It is by no means strictly a single player MMO. There is plenty of group activity going on at any point in time in game.... though it may not be PUG style (which, unfortunately, other MMOs have conditioned the MMO player base to expect and depend on).

 

There is absolutely no doubt that the approach to story arcs in SWTOR has ruined other MMOs for players who enjoy the story arc approach. This aspect really is night and day between SWTOR and other MMOs. Not everyone does appreciate the story arcs though... we have plenty of self-admitted space_bar jockeys that have played or are still playing the game. Most are impatient anxious individuals who really just want to get to cap level ASAP so they can hit the wall early on content.

[Maestrodomus]

It's a single player "friendly" MMO. It is by no means strictly a single player MMO. There is plenty of group activity going on at any point in time in game.... though it may not be PUG style (which, unfortunately, other MMOs have conditioned the MMO player base to expect and depend on).

 

There is absolutely no doubt that the approach to story arcs in SWTOR has ruined other MMOs for players who enjoy the story arc approach. This aspect really is night and day between SWTOR and other MMOs. Not everyone does appreciate the story arcs though... we have plenty of self-admitted space_bar jockeys that have played or are still playing the game. Most are impatient anxious individuals who really just want to get to cap level ASAP so they can hit the wall early on content.

 

You're pretty delusional. SWTOR has a great story but I doubt it has ruined the story for other MMO's. Moreover, it's asinine to hear you talk about rushing to the level cap and hitting the wall when the game has been out for more than 2.5 years.

[Daekarus]

You're pretty delusional. SWTOR has a great story but I doubt it has ruined the story for other MMO's. Moreover, it's asinine to hear you talk about rushing to the level cap and hitting the wall when the game has been out for more than 2.5 years.

 

Two things: yes, the VA and good story HAS ruined other MMOs for people like me, and no, rushing to level cap isn't really an issue. I mean, if you skip through the story for a class you haven't yet played you're a total dufus, but people have been at max level for a long time. TOR is entering the phase of maturity, and while alts certainly will continue to be levelled, having a main at cap is common. If you spend a lot of time in game, there seems to be insufficient content if you don't partake in all aspects of the game consistently.

[Oogtug]

Thats an argument for another day though. I am shocked they continue to have these numbers with their current lack of releases.

 

It's because shortly before this time period they pumped out an ABSOLUTELY MASSIVE amount of content and progression to finish out the MoP expansion storyline, and frankly if you were a player then it was all you could do to keep up with their releases before you have to basically abandon ship and move to a new area for new dailies, new reps, etc because the content was coming so quickly. And each new rep and area came with multiple dungeons and raid...

 

The vast majority of the playerbase is likely just now capping out the absolute crap ton of content they were delouged with and realistically Blizzard -way- over did the amount of story/daily content there was and had to scale it all back at players request.

 

Combine that with their actually functional AH and economy, the gardening etc and many other sideline activities to constantly do it's really not a mystery.

 

They have a ton more developers pumping out a tons more content than the SWTOR team could possibly compete with.

 

All the crew from these releases were moved to work full time on Warlords of Draenor and thus WoW's release schedule basically went dark, it was a known factor, and nobody is worried because they knew they have a new expansion just around the corner, a full paid expansion.

 

 

But make no mistakes: The Raiding community in WoW complains just as much if not worse and more than what I'm seeing here. It's never enough for these types of players, no developer can dream of keeping up with their demands.

 

WoW caters to casuals and semi-casuals now, you can do basically everything with dungeon and raid finder, and most of the content is a bouncing jumping spam ur cooldowns romp to a win outside of having to know to move to certain areas in certain times, basically no different or more difficult than what's in SWTOR, though there is a bit more variety.

 

Really, the Hardcore raiding community does this: They find a new game, pummel straight through all the content, complain, get more, smash through that, then move to a new game, and repeat. They often come back and forth to expansions as new content is release but the real hard truth is that these complaints will always be a vocal minority in any MMO because no developers realistically believes they can keep up the pace, do they strive to appease them, of course, but they know the truth so they have to appeal to the masses, because that's where the Massively Multiplayer part comes from you know.

 

 

As far as SWTOR is concerned, I suspect there is a decent amount of stuff that is in the dark currently, I don't expect huge amounts of content but I'd say there's a lot on the table right now that we're simply not aware of yet.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Oogtug

[Maestrodomus]

Two things: yes, the VA and good story HAS ruined other MMOs for people like me, and no, rushing to level cap isn't really an issue. I mean, if you skip through the story for a class you haven't yet played you're a total dufus, but people have been at max level for a long time. TOR is entering the phase of maturity, and while alts certainly will continue to be levelled, having a main at cap is common. If you spend a lot of time in game, there seems to be insufficient content if you don't partake in all aspects of the game consistently.

 

If you've been here since launch then partaking in all aspects will have left you dry about a year ago. There's been nothing new that a person playing 5-6 hours a week since launch could do.

[Daekarus]

If you've been here since launch then partaking in all aspects will have left you dry about a year ago. There's been nothing new that a person playing 5-6 hours a week since launch could do.

 

Funny.... I hear about many people who are pretty capped out on upgrading their toons but are really just getting into ground PVP or GSF. Especially GSF is very well designed in terms of progression, giving people meaningful and visible goals to work towards.

 

Since I took a break a while back to play Mechwarrior Online and Final Fantasy XII, there is PLENTY for me to do even before we start talking about alts and PVP.

[annabethchase]

I can only go by what you wrote. Write better next time. Don't present lack of hard core content as cause and then deny it is the cause. That's circular reasoning.

 

You specifically emphasized the lack of hard core content... by presenting your guilds hardcore successes, and how a lack of new hardcore for success has incapacitated your guilds ability to even run them anymore through player attrition in your guild. So, apparently you went rogue and off-topic in your own post.

 

And here's a clue for you ----> I never claimed there were not any new hardcore OPs.. that is a given. It's what you personally do with that fact and about it that matters. You can of course complain publicly in gaming forums if you like... but it changes nothing. All it really does is self-reinforce your own unhappiness. Take charge of you happiness in game play IMO... make changes at your end to find your happy-face.

 

And your attempt at a narrative that there has been no end game content of any kind, not just hardmode OPs... that does not hold water. I see plenty of cap level players in game every day, in my guild and out of my guild, that are active, having fun, and enjoying each new patch for what it offers.

 

Please look around and tell me this is going ok

1) Hardcore raiding is ok for the summer as they just got NIM modes, however there's not that many people that do NIM. Check the activity on the tracking threads & general level of discussion of it on site and in game.

2) casual raiding is decimated right now as there's been nothing new in nearly a year. That's causing relaxed guilds to dwindle down

3) Hardmode flashpoints are stale and haven't been updated in a year. Not really something you can make a guild night of right now.

4) tactical flashpoints are good for a laugh but there's no carrot on the end of that stick so most aren't interested in doing them repeatedly

5) We don't even get a new world boss to tide us over

6) daily runs have long since capped our rep. If I was still working towards a goal here that would be something, but the bar fills in a month or so

7) there's no "alternate" guild activity right now, such as Ilum open world pvp. I believe Guild Conquest will fill this bucket and be a massive breath of fresh air to guilds. It sort of has to be given all the other staleness listed above.

 

So, that's 7 guild activites all but NIM raiding currently being in a stale state. What does your active and healthy guild do that hasn't already been done to death? Note, I'm not talking about a new player guild. I mean an daily active guild filled with experienced players. In a game with this IP, you would expect a majority of players to be extremely long term subscribers. How does your guild provide daily activity?

[annabethchase]

Funny.... I hear about many people who are pretty capped out on upgrading their toons but are really just getting into ground PVP or GSF. Especially GSF is very well designed in terms of progression, giving people meaningful and visible goals to work towards.

 

Since I took a break a while back to play Mechwarrior Online and Final Fantasy XII, there is PLENTY for me to do even before we start talking about alts and PVP.

 

No, the hours Maestrodomus presented are accurate. If you've been a consistent subscriber since launch, you are currently in a stale point. We've already been through dry spells where PvP and GSF were the hot activity. Most moderately active guilds have always had 1-2 PvP nights in their weekly rotation so it's not new to the consistent subscribers who are the key financial contributors to the game. yes, that's a confirmed statement by EA, subscribers are the main source of CC revenue on top of their subscription money.

[Maestrodomus]

Funny.... I hear about many people who are pretty capped out on upgrading their toons but are really just getting into ground PVP or GSF. Especially GSF is very well designed in terms of progression, giving people meaningful and visible goals to work towards.

 

Since I took a break a while back to play Mechwarrior Online and Final Fantasy XII, there is PLENTY for me to do even before we start talking about alts and PVP.

 

If you've been a moderate player since launch I don't think that's really plausible. By the time GSF hit a person playing roughly 5 hours a week will easily have 2-3 max level toons that are HM capable including a main that is well geared, probably 1 character valor 70+ and a couple more in the 40s or 50s from leveling and messing around.

 

I played GSF for a month or two after launch and mastered 2 fighters pretty easily. It's pretty fun but doesn't have the depth of the ground PvP; it's lacking maps, modes, and combat intricacies found in the ground game. It's fun but just a super mini-game that can easily be monetized.

[Daekarus]

If you've been a moderate player since launch I don't think that's really plausible. By the time GSF hit a person playing roughly 5 hours a week will easily have 2-3 max level toons that are HM capable including a main that is well geared, probably 1 character valor 70+ and a couple more in the 40s or 50s from leveling and messing around.

 

I played GSF for a month or two after launch and mastered 2 fighters pretty easily. It's pretty fun but doesn't have the depth of the ground PvP; it's lacking maps, modes, and combat intricacies found in the ground game. It's fun but just a super mini-game that can easily be monetized.

 

Like I said, I took a break, so the "moderate player since launch" doesn't apply to me. When I quit I had... 3 characters at level 50 and one at 46, none in end-game gear. Since I left they have gone F2P, released RotHC, done Oricon, and a whole bunch else - I have loads of catching up to do.

 

FWIW, I really hate the ground PvP game and see GSF as a waste of potential when I actually wanted a new version of X-wing and TIE Fighter singleplayer missions. If I want to play PvP, I'll go do it in a game specifically designed for it, like Mechwarrior Online.

[TravelersWay]

"Take a break" is not an acceptable response to what is either poor dev scheduling or slow dev work speed. Even if the game is "not designed for hardcore" as you keep insisting, even casual raiders need more than 10 bosses a year.

 

I am not sure why you are trying to excuse away the hardcore crowd, but without the hardcores, the casuals will suffer. No one will be there to write guides for them, to answer their in game questions, to take them through new operations.

Wrong.

 

Indeed. I take breaks quite often from every MMO I am playing (I currently have 8-9 I am focused on right now - a few of which are still in Alpha/Beta). Having all of them being Free to Play makes it even better and financially beneficial when doing so. Despite that, I still have two subbed accounts to SWTOR and still take breaks quite often (in fact, I have played very little the last couple of months at this point). Taking breaks helps to alleviate burnout.

 

In terms of hardcore vs. casual. There's a lot more that goes into it than just the overarching labels. There are plenty of "casual" players in every MMO community that also provide the services that the "hardcore" do. The hardcore audience (like the PvP community) is often vastly overrated in their overall importance to gaming.

[Vradic]

I'm sorry, I'm still in tears laughing at how he thinks hardcore guilds are the backbone of the community.

[Vis-Tecum]

I mean, we're talking about folks that like the game so much that they put way above average amounts of time and/or effort into playing it, and I think losing that kind of person hurts the game more than a lot of folks would seem to give credit for.

 

I would disagree here but that depends on what the definition of "hardcore" you go buy. the players out there logging in everyday running guilds doing podcasts and fansites I would consider hardcore but most if not all that I can think of and listen to wouldn't be considered hardcore in the raiding or pvp community. these are the people though that I think are the most important to the game form the player side. it would suck to lose whats left of the fansites and podcasts, sites like dulfy, torocast, enimity, sepc, and even shows like the republic and people like larry with hyperspace beacon

 

hardcore raiders and pvpers seem to mostly fall into the streamers and really they don't seem overly dedicated to the game as much as they use it for views. the streams who are raiders and pvpers would gladly hop on the newest game for views rather then a love for swtor or attempting to bring in viewers to the game for their love of the game. and that's fine they need subscribers / viewers to keep doing what they love too.

 

that said the forum guides and websites, class discussions, theory crafting posts, torparse, mr robot and fight videos the "hardcore" community provide to the game are very valuable. but in my opinion these are people who fall more into the ones who believe they can provide the help and just happen to be really good / "hardcore." most of the "hardcore" raiders on my server only log into raid and could care less if they were logging into swtor, wildstar, wow, or the next hotness. the pvpers mostly just troll fleet in between queues. though I guess they do fill out the teams of people who do put in time.

 

those filthy casuals though seem to be playing the game because they like to play it, some of the more vocal "hardcore" act like its such a burden

Edited June 29, 2014 by Vis-Tecum

[Gnoblesse]

I would disagree here but that depends on what the definition of "hardcore" you go buy. the players out there logging in everyday running guilds doing podcasts and fansites I would consider hardcore but most if not all that I can think of and listen to wouldn't be considered hardcore in the raiding or pvp community. these are the people though that I think are the most important to the game form the player side. it would suck to lose whats left of the fansites and podcasts, sites like dulfy, torocast, enimity, sepc, and even shows like the republic and people like larry with hyperspace beacon

 

hardcore raiders and pvpers seem to mostly fall into the streamers and really they don't seem overly dedicated to the game as much as they use it for views. the streams who are raiders and pvpers would gladly hop on the newest game for views rather then a love for swtor or attempting to bring in viewers to the game for their love of the game. and that's fine they need subscribers / viewers to keep doing what they love too.

 

that said the forum guides and websites, class discussions, theory crafting posts, torparse, mr robot and fight videos the "hardcore" community provide to the game are very valuable. but in my opinion these are people who fall more into the ones who believe they can provide the help and just happen to be really good / "hardcore." most of the "hardcore" raiders on my server only log into raid and could care less if they were logging into swtor, wildstar, wow, or the next hotness. the pvpers mostly just troll fleet in between queues. though I guess they do fill out the teams of people who do put in time.

 

those filthy casuals though seem to be playing the game because they like to play it, some of the more vocal "hardcore" act like its such a burden

 

This isn't meant to be a slam on the game, but if someone is streaming for views, honestly, they're probably not going to be streaming SWTOR. This game's Twitch viewership is pretty low compared to other games they could be streaming if that's what they're concerned about. As of right this second, I checked, and there's four times as many watching streams of Super Mario 64. Someone could have all 84 SWTOR viewers and they'd still have 4000 less than the total number of people who are watching Minecraft streams.

 

I think there's also an added affect on people's perception of a game's stability. (Not exclusive to the "top" guilds but I think they add to it.) A top guild that's managed to keep a steady group raiding (or PvPing) for several years has the effect of saying to new folks, "hey, this game has got some longevity." Because that's really difficult to pull off if a game's not solid. (Again, not limited to "top" guilds, but often "top" guilds are quite visible and vocal in the community.)

[Maestrodomus]

I'm sorry, I'm still in tears laughing at how he thinks hardcore guilds are the backbone of the community.

 

I feel sorry for you if you read that post and came to that conclusion; is it possible that you're drunk?

[BeeblesTV]

The thread in question.

 

I know we as gamers may often sound whiny when we say there should be new content, but endgame content in this game has basically come to a standstill. Flashpoints are nice for advancing a story, but they are not a substitute for operations for PvE players. If I had a choice between the five flashpoint released in the last year or a new operation, I would take the new operation each time, and I think most endgame PvEers would agree.

 

This wouldn't be so bad except there has been no talk of operations in the near future. We are almost 9 months removed from 2.4 with not even a sniff of something new. And guilds are suffering for it. Serious, hardcore guilds that have become the backbone of the community like Hatred are gone or going. These guilds that are based on PvE are basically giving up hope.

 

In short, give us something. We shouldn't be 9 months away from the last operation without even a hint of when to expect new content.

 

Plenty of MMOs out there if you want to raid. I think SWTOR needs to focus on its one unique aspect to survive, the personal story.

[annabethchase]

Wrong.

 

Taking a break takes more money out of the game, lowering our future development. Suggesting people take a break is the worst thing you could possibly say.

[Gnoblesse]

Taking a break takes more money out of the game, lowering our future development. Suggesting people take a break is the worst thing you could possibly say.

 

 

Exactly. On a purely practical level, I don't think telling people "stop giving BW money, please" is wise. (Leaving aside the fact it's trying to tell people what to do with their own money or time, which I have issues with on another level.)

[BuriDogshin]

Taking a break takes more money out of the game, lowering our future development. Suggesting people take a break is the worst thing you could possibly say.

Nonsense.

 

Suggesting people to quit and never come back is worse.

 

Also worse is suggesting that people who are not enjoying SWTOR should continue paying for it anyway, just to fund future BW developments that they also may not enjoy. Do you really think BW has no funds in the bank for development, after turning a huge profit on SWTOR last year?

 

BW is not a charity, and not a cause, it's a business. People should feel free to not pay for SWTOR if they aren't enjoying it, and take a break from SWTOR if the current content isn't doing it for them. That's fair to the players, fair to BW, fair to everyone. And it may even improve long-term retention by lowering the amount of burn-out.

Edited June 29, 2014 by BuriDogshin

[mokkh]

Taking a break takes more money out of the game, lowering our future development. Suggesting people take a break is the worst thing you could possibly say.

 

Exactly. On a purely practical level, I don't think telling people "stop giving BW money, please" is wise. (Leaving aside the fact it's trying to tell people what to do with their own money or time, which I have issues with on another level.)

 

That's not what they are saying. On a purely human level, it's more selfish to want other people to keep putting their money into the game for your benefit when they are clearly better off not doing so. I've taken breaks before, I came back and the game had rectified a lot of the issues that had previously rubbed me wrong. Taking a break is a good thing, I went and played other games and came back with a fresh perspective.

 

Moreover, I needed that break because I had literally been over-playing the game so much that it made what would otherwise be trivial concerns into myopically magnified gamebreakers.

 

I have no problems with anyone telling me that I need to take a step back. And if I feel like it's in someone's best interest on a emotional, spiritual, and physiological level to not blow a gasket over things that are happening in a virtual world, I will do so every time.

 

So, if you insist that people continue with behaviors that are clearly to their detriment so that you can be the beneficiary of their misfortune, and you're ok with that... then please continue.

 

I'd rather tell them to

, but it's only because I love to cha cha. Edited June 29, 2014 by mokkh

[Gnoblesse]

That's not what they are saying. On a purely human level, it's more selfish to want other people to keep putting their money into the game for your benefit when they are clearly better off not doing so. I've taken breaks before, I came back and the game had rectified a lot of the issues that had previously rubbed me wrong. Taking a break is a good thing, I went and played other games and came back with a fresh perspective.

 

Moreover, I needed that break because I had literally been over-playing the game so much that it made what would otherwise be trivial concerns into myopically magnified gamebreakers.

 

I have no problems with anyone telling me that I need to take a step back. And if I feel like it's in someone's best interest on a emotional, spiritual, and physiological level to not blow a gasket over things that are happening in a virtual world, I will do so every time.

 

So, if you insist that people continue with behaviors that are clearly to their detriment so that you can be the beneficiary of their misfortune, and you're ok with that... then please continue.

 

I'd rather tell them to

, but it's only because I love to cha cha.

 

That's why I said on a practical level. Purely on a practical level, that's exactly what they're doing, regardless of how well intentioned the motives behind it may be. And I'm not suggesting the alternative as the opposite, either - telling them they should keep playing. I'm saying that decisions re: how someone spends their gaming time and money are personal, and not really anyone else's business. I mean this consistently, btw, across all the different arguments that someone else is spending either time or money "incorrectly," whether it be gamestyle (PvE, PvP, etc,) level of commitment/playtime (hardcore,casual, etc) and so on. People obviously figured out how to sub in the first place, if they need to take a break, that's their own determination and I assume they know how to take a break (or not) without me telling them to (or how to.)

 

I respect that you and others may be trying to do things in other's best interests, I just have issues with people trying to determine what someone else's best interests actually *are,* and what they should or shouldn't be doing with their own personal resources.

 

 

Suggesting people to quit and never come back is worse.

 

 

Or we could consider a novel approach like not telling other people how to spend their own time and money to begin with.

 

I'd like to note, by the way, that this would apply JUST as equally to anyone who would try to tell people who are happy with the game that they shouldn't play/sub. It does go both ways.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Gnoblesse

[Andryah]

I'm sorry, I'm still in tears laughing at how he thinks hardcore guilds are the backbone of the community.

 

Yeah. Well.. in MMOs, like in real life..... every special interest group likes to emphasize the "special" in "special interest group". As though an MMO was some kind of Platinum Access & Perks just for them and the other members of their minority interest.

 

And as we can see....some will even call you names over it.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Andryah

[Andryah]

Taking a break takes more money out of the game, lowering our future development. Suggesting people take a break is the worst thing you could possibly say.

 

You know.. you can take a break while maintaining a subscription if that really worries you so much. Besides... any particular person taking a break (for their own mental/emotional well being) has no measurable impact on the games revenue stream. Not to mention.. some players leave... others subscribe. It's a revolving door in MMOs these days... which is why business models other then subscriber-only are so popular with players as a whole. It gives them the option to be much more casual, yet still stay in touch with guild mates and friends in game when they want to.

 

But I digress... this game does just fine it appears with large numbers of non-subscribed.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Andryah