Class balance - Dev feedback

[SeanFM]

The other issue with changing flashbang from aoe to single target is that it made snipers less desirable in 4v4 ranked arenas. Before the nerf, snipers could be part of a hardswitch comp and could use their flashbang as the group cc. Now they can't...

 

In terms of TTK the issue (imo at least) is that it's ok in some scenarios and too short in others. In ranked 4v4 arenas I think the TTK is fine. I've never had the pleasure of playing them myself but from watching high level teams stream it seems to be in a reasonably good place. Some arenas go to the acid but most don't. Where as if you look at solo ranked arenas TTK is more of an issue.

 

In solo queue the majority of matches in my experience are with 4 dps on each team. Some classes struggle to survive one hard stun when the whole of the other team is focusing them and there is very little that can be done about that. I'm not suggesting that 1 person should be able to survive 4 people focusing them but they should at least be able to survive long enough that they can react and try to counter what is happening. In my opinion TTK is too short in 4 dps arenas.

 

Obviously it would be ridiculous to balance around solo queue and even more ridiculous to balance around 4 dps solo queue matches. But unless TTK can be adjusted separately for different scenarios then we are just going to have to accept the TTK in solo queue as group queue is more important.

[Galothor]

The nerf to OS was due to PvE. That is completely unrelated to OS's uses in PvP. No one in their right mind ever uses OS "rotationally" because in PvP people can just run out of it. Believe it or not, the 60% nerf to OS's damage actually nerfed sniper's survivability in PvP. Snipers would put OS on top of themselves and melee enemies would have to decided whether they should attack the sniper anyway and eat the OS damage (which could tick for around 7k in engineering) or if they should attack a different target. This meant that snipers weren't always the 1st target to be focused in arenas because it was suicide for a melee team to just stand in the OS.

 

As if the snipers didn't already have quite a few advantages over melee classes.

They can not be charged at.

They can dectect stealth.

They can not be interrupted.

They can not be stunned.

They have plenty of CC of their own.

 

Snipers can put a ton of damage on the melees before they can even touch them. That puts them in a unique position as every other class can be attacked directly (either by using gap closer or opening up from stealth).

 

And in addition to that you want to keep them waiting doing nothing but eating you damage or attack you and being severly punished for it?

 

I know why you say the flashbang nerf was good, because an instant aoe mezz with a 30m range was OP. But again it nerfed snipers' survivability. Before the nerf, if you had 2, 3 or 4 melee dps up your arse you could flashbang them all and have time to reposition. I wish they would reduce the range of flashbang and give back the aoe bit. At a time when snipers need more survivability it's annoying that they nerfed it

 

Well if you do that you should either nerf another cc or the dps a little bit, because compared to the amount of CC and the unique advantages mentioned above the sniper damage is in a very good place.

 

Besides I think they should rework the whole CC part of this game. I think the every classes should be relying more on their Damage mitigation while the squishy classes should be able to make up for their squishyness by have (more) CCs. Right now there is too much CC on too many classes in general (not saying that in the current state some classes might need some more CC, but that is due to other classes having more CC than they would actually need).

[JackNader]

 

In solo queue the majority of matches in my experience are with 4 dps on each team. Some classes struggle to survive one hard stun when the whole of the other team is focusing them and there is very little that can be done about that.

 

They could fix this with 1 change.

 

Alter the CC breaker so that it gives you a FULL resolve bar as soon as you use it. Full resolve should always mean 100% immunity to all roots, snares, stuns or controlling effects of any kind

[SeanFM]

As if the snipers didn't already have quite a few advantages over melee classes.

They can not be charged at.

They can detect stealth.

They can not be interrupted.

They can not be stunned.

They have plenty of CC of their own.

 

Snipers can put a ton of damage on the melees before they can even touch them. That puts them in a unique position as every other class can be attacked directly (either by using gap closer or opening up from stealth).

 

And in addition to that you want to keep them waiting doing nothing but eating you damage or attack you and being severly punished for it?

It is true that snipers have these benefits but some of them aren't as good as they seem on paper. I could explain why if you want but the fact is that snipers are the worst class in arenas atm. The stats are there for you to look at on the leaderboards. I know leaderboards don't mean everything but you can't deny that snipers are behind other classes in arenas. It's all very well listing what advantages snipers have, but that can be done for any class.

 

Also notice that all of those advantages you listed (other than the CC) require the sniper to be sitting still. Basically to gain the benefits of those advantages the sniper has to face tank, which inevitably leads to their quick death. In arenas the only way to survive being focused is to kite. When you are kiting you have none of those benefits. And apart from lethality, snipers can do very little significant damage whilst on the move.

 

As for snipers doing a "ton of damage" they can do no more damage than other classes. And please don't pull out engineering parses and say snipers do the most damage. First of all parsing is PvE and doesn't translate into PvP and second of all the highest sniper parses are with the roll bang, which can't be used too often in PvP as the roll needs to be saved for escaping/kiting.

 

I never said that the other players should wait and do nothing, I said they should attack a different target. Remember there are 4 people on each team. I also never said that how OS was before was balanced. I simply stated that the nerf to its damage was also a nerf to sniper survivability in PvP.

Edited June 22, 2014 by SeanFM
Punctuation missing

[JackNader]

@ galathor

 

Yes, snipers do have plenty of tools to keep a single "melee" target off them. That's as far as it goes.

 

The only tool snipers now have to deal with multiple melee targets attacking them is a single knockback... that's it. Beyond that their only option is to hunker down, pop ballistics, shield probe and eat the damage. Multiple ranged vs snipers is even worse.. especially if those ranged classes are dot sorcs.

[MotorCityMan]

Hi this is a thread about my pet peeves and me being mad at Bioware for not tailoring the game to suit me.

 

 

 

Inviting people to whine can't fail to get a response on these forums eh

Edited June 22, 2014 by MotorCityMan

[AdrianDmitruk]

The other issue with changing flashbang from aoe to single target is that it made snipers less desirable in 4v4 ranked arenas. Before the nerf, snipers could be part of a hardswitch comp and could use their flashbang as the group cc. Now they can't...

 

In terms of TTK the issue (imo at least) is that it's ok in some scenarios and too short in others. In ranked 4v4 arenas I think the TTK is fine. I've never had the pleasure of playing them myself but from watching high level teams stream it seems to be in a reasonably good place. Some arenas go to the acid but most don't. Where as if you look at solo ranked arenas TTK is more of an issue.

 

In solo queue the majority of matches in my experience are with 4 dps on each team. Some classes struggle to survive one hard stun when the whole of the other team is focusing them and there is very little that can be done about that. I'm not suggesting that 1 person should be able to survive 4 people focusing them but they should at least be able to survive long enough that they can react and try to counter what is happening. In my opinion TTK is too short in 4 dps arenas.

 

Obviously it would be ridiculous to balance around solo queue and even more ridiculous to balance around 4 dps solo queue matches. But unless TTK can be adjusted separately for different scenarios then we are just going to have to accept the TTK in solo queue as group queue is more important.

 

One possible way of addressing this would be to go through DCDs class by class and make a great deal of them usable while stunned.

 

That way CC still has use for hard swtiches (the CCed person can't aid a teammate) but it would allow a wider variety of Bioware's newly vaunted "counterplay" to the mess of unholy CCs in this game. At one point resolve was at least somewhat functional because TTK was a bit higher and it was therefore possible to survive a single stun, get a chance to get in an attack or two, and use your break on the second stun, and get a whitebar out of it. The conventional wisdom of "don't pop your break until you're whitebarred" will now get you killed in a lot of situations because burst has steadily crept up since 2.0 while our HP pools have barely increased at all.

 

As a sorc healer, I have two breaks, one of which is a semi-DCD. I'll tend to use Force Barrier before my actual break, especially if I'm not yet whitebarred, as the Barrier provides direct mitigation while the break does not. However if Barrier is on cooldown I simply can no longer rely on resolve to judge when I can use my break, as if I wait, I'll be dead. Even from full health, if I'm stunned by a random person and then a sin decides to open up on me, I just won't survive the stun. I have to use my break and force speed away hopefully before they can react/stun again to have any chance to survive whatsoever (having them bound to Z and X helps a lot with that, thankfully).

 

Now sorc heals might be a rather drastic example of problems with resolve/TTK as most everyone admits that spec needs help badly, at least for arena with yolo scoreboard targeting rendering positioning almost irrelevant, but hell half the reason why ED was/is compared to other DCDs is precisely because it can be used while stunned. It's not just a h2f, it's a h2f during a stun-and-gun. The vast, vast majority of DCDs can't be used like that, and if DCDs could be used for mitigation while stunned, ED would lose a bit of its (relative) luster. With burst so high relative to HP pools and so much CC in the game, perhaps its time to revisit the accessibility of our DCDs.

Edited June 22, 2014 by AdrianDmitruk

[Galothor]

@SeanFM

 

It is true that you have to spent a lot of time in the same place. But as I said before you got plenty of time to do damage before they reach you.

Survivability when being focused by several classes might be a problem, but then again you can't really shut down the sniper (unlike the other range classes) and as a sniper one got more than to put out damage until being hit by the full force of the oppeonents' damage.

 

If you increase the survivability of the sniper you have to reduce either the CC/immunity or the damage output to some degree. Otherwise you will make the sniper OP.

That 10m mezz might be helpful, but it would mostly affect melees and snipers are already the worst oppoenents for melees. And even for ranged classes snipers are pretty tough as they got plenty of CC but are barely affect by CCs themselves.

 

I never use parses for PvP because that's just stupid. As if you could stand still and pull of your optimal rotation perfectly. And I always criticized BW for doing so (or something similar)! Doing so just shows how little the person knows about actual PvP.

 

@JackNader

 

As I said survivability against multiple opponents might be a problem, but

a) it is not quite a sever as it would be for other classes

b) if you get some more CC or DCD you will have to give up some DPS or other CC/DCD potential in return. Otherwise snipers will be too powerful.

 

And if you compare snipers to lightning sorcs (for exampe) you will find that damage-wise the snipers have nothing to complain about. The only major differences between those 2 classes are that the sorc can move around and got its force barrier. But what is the price for that? They are constantly interrupted and almost completely shut down. They have trouble keeping the enemies at bay as they can both sneak up and charge at them (which is nothing less that a gap closer combined with an interrupt, a root, and a short stun). By the time the sorc will have put out its first major attack the sniper will already have forced his opponent to use his DCDs. Or at least drained a significant amount of hp.

In addtion that Inqui Knockback is not even half as effective as the sniper knockback. The distance is shorter. It only affects opponents infront of you, and do to constant server lag / positioning problems (courtesy of BW) the knockback misses quite frequently. So the lightning sorc is not better off than the sniper. They might be able to delay their death by 12 secs but in return they will have put out far less damage.

 

This is also true for other classes!

 

But in general a class is not supposed to win a fight versus several opponents at once.

[JackNader]

it is not quite a sever as it would be for other classes

 

There is a reason people focus the hell out of snipers at the start of an arena. Snipers have the highest probability of being killed by an outright gank than any other class.

[Master-Nala]

What does TTK mean? I pretty much agree with everything you said here, just need to understand that one.

 

TTK = Time to Kill

 

And I agree it's too low, but healing is going to have to take a beating for it to be raised.

[Master-Nala]

There is a reason people focus the hell out of snipers at the start of an arena. Snipers have the highest probability of being killed by an outright gank than any other class.

 

That, and letting a sniper free cast is one of the classic blunders. The most famous of which is never get involved in a land war on Balmorra!

Edited June 22, 2014 by Master-Nala

[xMaranathax]

Concealment operatives and Scrapper scoundrels should be nerfed a tad. Its pretty bad when I'm on my VG/PT tank and I'm at half health when I come out of their debilitate.

 

BUFF pvp tanks. IMO, one tank should survive 2 dps, but not three. Not saying that tanks should 1v2 and win. What I mean is that 2 dps should have a very long TTK on a tank. One way of doing this is to allow shields to absorb critical hits as well as non-critical hits.

 

Carnage Marauders should either have Unstoppable, or have a reset to Ravage, such as their Vengeance counter parts.

 

Undying rage should take HP away at beginning of ability, not at end. Lower it to 25% HP taken.

 

Cap Enraged Defense heals to 50% total HP.

 

Extended ICD of Assassinate proc for madness assassins to 20 seconds.

 

Either make Accuracy a stat that matters in PvP, or place a diminishing returns on Power.

Edited June 22, 2014 by xMaranathax

[JP_Legatus]

Concealment operatives and Scrapper scoundrels should be nerfed a tad. Its pretty bad when I'm on my VG/PT tank and I'm at half health when I come out of their debilitate.

 

BUFF pvp tanks. IMO, one tank should survive 2 dps, but not three. Not saying that tanks should 1v2 and win. What I mean is that 2 dps should have a very long TTK on a tank. One way of doing this is to allow shields to absorb critical hits as well as non-critical hits.

 

Carnage Marauders should either have Unstoppable, or have a reset to Ravage, such as their Vengeance counter parts.

 

Undying rage should take HP away at beginning of ability, not at end. Lower it to 25% HP taken.

 

Cap Enraged Defense heals to 50% total HP.

 

Extended ICD of Assassinate proc for madness assassins to 20 seconds.

 

Either make Accuracy a stat that matters in PvP, or place a diminishing returns on Power.

 

Problem with buffing tanks is that in the current optimal 2/1/1 setup it already is fairly balanced.

 

You buff tanks now and soon arenas will be a stalemate every game.

[Maudril]

Pure DPS classes should always do more dps than hybrid classes that can off heal. Period.... facing a class that can equal or out dps you while doing some decent healing is ridiculous.

 

This would be valid if offhealing was worth a damn. It isn't. so its not valid.

 

The Jug/Guard to Mara/Sent balance is off though. Not in the case of Vengeance VS Carnage/Anni, but in the case of Rage. Jug has higher average output because of the way the shockwave stacks are generated, whereas Mara has higher average survivability (Cloak of Pain, Obfuscate, and Force Camo >>> Endure Pain and Saber Reflect. But Enraged Defense >>> Undying Rage)

 

 

There is ONE case where offhealing is viable. That is in the Corruption/Madness hybrids, or skankhealers. GUESS WHAT?!?! Skankhealers don't put out the damage of DPS specs, so I guess by the way you speak of them they are balanced nicely.

[Brunner_Venda]

[quote=JediMasterSLC;7496286

2. Stop whining about sins. Madness >= deception now anyway.

 

My vanguard can at least put up a good fight against deception before dying.

My sniper doesn't even get the courtesy of a rape whistle or a pillow to scream into.

 

Inviting people to whine can't fail to get a response on these forums eh

 

Here's the problem. The majority of people aren't whining. They're leaving. I would rather people do the former and just vent a little.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Brunner_Venda

[JediMasterSLC]

Concealment operatives and Scrapper scoundrels should be nerfed a tad. Its pretty bad when I'm on my VG/PT tank and I'm at half health when I come out of their debilitate.

 

LOL, good one m8.

 

One way of doing this is to allow shields to absorb critical hits as well as non-critical hits.

 

That would only make a difference against autocrits and recklessness.

 

Carnage Marauders should either have Unstoppable, or have a reset to Ravage, such as their Vengeance counter parts.

 

No thanks, class homogenization is bad.

 

Undying rage should take HP away at beginning of ability, not at end. Lower it to 25% HP taken.

 

One of those things should be done, but probably not both.

 

Either make Accuracy a stat that matters in PvP, or place a diminishing returns on Power.

 

Um..... what?

[DerSchneider]

 

Carnage Marauders should either have Unstoppable, or have a reset to Ravage, such as their Vengeance counter parts.

 

Undying rage should take HP away at beginning of ability, not at end. Lower it to 25% HP taken.

 

Cap Enraged Defense heals to 50% total HP.

 

.

 

Sure UR must take hp at the beginning and it costs too much.

But when you say "nerf juggs, nerf ED" and "carnage is a counter of vengeance" please don't forget that marauders hit much harder than juggs. You can do up to 25k damage with gore+ravage+scream combo. Juggs don't have such burst. So when you ask to give maras ravage reset/unstoppable - then juggs must receive gore. Doesn't this sound funny to the poor sorcs?

Edited June 22, 2014 by DerSchneider

[Maudril]

Sure UR must take hp at the beginning and it costs too much.

But when you say "nerf juggs, nerf ED" and "carnage is a counter of vengeance" please don't forget that marauders hit much harder than juggs. You can do up to 25k damage with gore+ravage+scream combo. Juggs don't have such burst. So when you ask to give maras ravage reset/unstoppable - then juggs must receive gore. Doesn't this sound funny to the poor sorcs?

 

^

Yup Something needs to happen to Carnage, but it does not need to be major. at all.

[Adovir]

Also to the whole can't be jumped to thin for snipers, yes that only works in a 1cv1 but when you have a teammate near you they just jump to them then beat on you. Stealth detect is a joke because it only works Infront of you and it takes so long to build I can get behind you before it even matters. Shield probe blocks something like 3k every 20 seconds if your not lethality, but like someone posted before when was the last time lethality was viable? The sniper shield is nice for the group but inevitably it does you no good if your gettin dogged on and you need to run because you no longer have the damage reduct. While on paper their defensives are beautiful in a 1v1 situation but when it comes down to it, they aren't really as good.

[Doomleeonn]

Pure DPS classes should always do more dps than hybrid classes that can off heal. Period.... facing a class that can equal or out dps you while doing some decent healing is ridiculous.

I agree with u.. some people don't know how to read and talk like "know everything" not a jedi atitude i supose.

Well my opinion was given

[PhatMcMuffins]

Pure DPS classes should always do more dps than hybrid classes that can off heal. Period.... facing a class that can equal or out dps you while doing some decent healing is ridiculous.

 

Then there would be no point to ever bringing a non-pure dps class as your dps in a 4s game. Everyone fills a singular role. @ dps do damage, a tank tanks and a healer heals. Off heals and taunts are nice for a dps to have but do not help them fulfill their role. If pure dps do more damage, then your dps choices are sniper or mara.

 

You realize you can't heal and attack at the same time, right? You're at least spending a gcd not doing damage (and thats if its an instant heal)

[Doomleeonn]

Then there would be no point to ever bringing a non-pure dps class as your dps in a 4s game. Everyone fills a singular role. @ dps do damage, a tank tanks and a healer heals. Off heals and taunts are nice for a dps to have but do not help them fulfill their role. If pure dps do more damage, then your dps choices are sniper or mara.

 

You realize you can't heal and attack at the same time, right? You're at least spending a gcd not doing damage (and thats if its an instant heal)

 

well, the point is: PURE DPS CLASSES SHOULD DO MORE DAMAGE.

Snipers are doing a great damage and have a great survivability, but if u are a sentinel u cant solo a jugg (a tanker with dps)

[Maudril]

well, the point is: PURE DPS CLASSES SHOULD DO MORE DAMAGE.

Snipers are doing a great damage and have a great survivability, but if u are a sentinel u cant solo a jugg (a tanker with dps)

 

If offhealing or offtanking as a DPS spec is not viable, then why should pure DPS classes put out objectively more damage.

 

If you are carnage and you can't solo a jug, you are either bad or the jug is really, really good.

 

Tanker with DPS? Wasn't the Tank/Vengeance hybrid killed in 2.0? I think the current skanktank would get mauled by a decently played Carnage mara now, right?

[daveyggg]

LOL, good one m8.

 

 

 

That would only make a difference against autocrits and recklessness.

 

 

 

No thanks, class homogenization is bad.

 

 

 

One of those things should be done, but probably not both.

 

 

 

Um..... what?

 

+1 with the LOL at concealment op nerf.

[Ottoattack]

TTK right now is surely too low. It was the solution BW thought to counter that healing is overtunned. It works well in group ranked. While I am a firm believer that balancing should be done from the most competitive PvP environment, was not increasing the healing debuff a better solution?! Since the majority of PvP encounters do not have healers or tanks, TTK in most of WZs and solo ranked is way off. On most of my dps toons I am currently dying on average 8-9 times in WZs up from 4-5 times pre 2.7. Getting globaled something used to happen once every 15-20 games, now 2-3 times a game.

 

As for class balance:

 

PTs: AP is under performing. Generally, I am not seeing dps PTs doing good, even with buff to pyro.

 

Merc: still under performing as dps. I think they forever will at this point. The class dps mechanics does not work in PvP.

 

Sins: fairly balanced all trees. Dec needs to lose a bit of burst in favor of gain in sustained damage.

 

Sorc: full lighting is weak. Corruption is worst healer by a huge margin. Madness/hybrid are in a good spot.

 

Ops: still stronger than the other 2 healers, but at least mercs are close. Concealment much better now than before, but I am not sure how they work in ranked. Lethality only works in group ranked. Weak otherwise.

 

Sniper: weak. Under focus fire dies so quickly.

 

Jugg: veng defensive capabilities are way out of whack. I like how BW nerfed ED from 40 secs to 10 secs, as if that was the problem. Like the constant change in TTK, the re-structure of veng DCDs in 2.7, is another example of devs re-creating the wheel and spending humongous resources, balancing and re-balancing, instead of making minor tweaks. Juggs have another dps tree. I wounder why no one plays it?

 

Marauder: I can't talk about annihilation, but it still feels fairly weak. Carnage was powerful through pre 2.7, not sure how it works now. I barely see ppl play it anymore. Okay, focus. What is the purpose of this tree again?

 

The buff of ranged classes in 2.7 did not work well except for sorc. The drop in TTK makes game play terrible, unless you are playing on the top end of competition, which 99% if the population does not do anyway. All of the changes devs made to PvP since 2.7, while good in theory, were implemented incorrectly. Again, as usual, BW always try to re-create the wheel. Add on top of that the declining PvP population and the whole PvP experience now sucks.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Ottoattack