Vandicus Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Are you going to explain how Minecraft does not fit that definition of MMO or are you just going to tell me that wikipedia is bad? Can we at least admit that Minecraft and SWTOR are in entirely different genres of gaming? They aren't remotely similar enough to suggest that SWTOR could benefit from being more Minecraft-like, any more than suggesting SWTOR should be more like Mount and Blade or CoD. The connection between minecraft and what most people mean when they say sandbox mmo is so tenuous that suggesting A. Minecraft is a succesful sandbox MMO. B. SWG is a sandbox MMO. C. Therefore SWTOR could be a succesful MMO if it became sandbox in a fashion similar to SWG is nonsense. Not only are they not analogous(SWG and minecraft that is), there's a huge jump in logic from "Minecraft is a succesful sandbox MMO" to the implicit assumption in C that "being a sandbox MMO is what makes an MMO succesful". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I like Star Wars. Minecraft is a super popular game in Sweden, and I'm Swedish. The Minecraft developers are also swedish. What game do I play? Star Wars. Have I even tried Minecraft out? No. ...what does this tell us? That you probably enjoy Swedish meatballs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrgames Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 That you probably enjoy Swedish meatballs? Who doesn't like meatballs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddballEasyEight Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 That you probably enjoy Swedish meatballs? Actually, swedish meatballs is a lie. It was actually brought from the ottoman empire after king Carl XII returned from there. So they are actually ottoman meatballs... with onions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewski Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 is nonsense. Not only are they not analogous(SWG and minecraft that is), there's a huge jump in logic from "Minecraft is a succesful sandbox MMO" to the implicit assumption in C that "being a sandbox MMO is what makes an MMO succesful". Not to mention that calling SWG a successful sandbox MMO is a bit of a stretch. I'm not down on the game, as it was an awesome game with some very dedicated fans, but the end result was a niche game that served a small group of people. As good as it was, in the end it wasn't worth keeping up. TOR certainly didn't meet the WoW killing expectations it had at launch, but it adapted, and has settled into a nice revenue generating themepark MMO that a lot of people enjoy. Enjoy it for what it is instead of expecting it to meet the unrealistic expectations your favorite dead game also failed to meet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBBP Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Nice way to put yourself on an exalted pedestal above the ignorant and lazy masses. I love attitudes like this. All you do is show how you think people who do not agree with you are beneath you. I played EVE for 4 years and loved it. I never enjoyed SWG at all. I want to gouge out my eyes after only a short while with the "MMO" Minecraft. I have been here since launch and thoroughly enjoy it (warts and all). Sometimes it is Sandbox vs Themepark, but it is ALWAYS how much fun I am having playing the game. That is the bottom line for most players. Your preference for more sandbox or more themepark says nothing about your need for instant rewards or hand holding. I didn't put myself on a pedestal. I simply stated that the masses want an easy and rewarding hand-held tour. Nowhere have I stated any sort of opinion on the masses. Or they've simply grown old enough that the amount of time they have to dedicate to any particular game is too low to truly be effective in a sandbox game. For my part, I used to have a lot more time to play "hardcore" games where you might need to log in at a moments notice to repel an attack or take advantage of a rare boss spawn. Those days, though, are far in the past for me. Work, family and other responsibilities take up more of my time, and my gaming time is limited to a couple hours a night a few nights a week. I still enjoy gaming, but have less time for it, so a more theme park game suits me now. I can keep active in my guild by playing a few nights a week, and enjoy content that's challenging at the level I can play. Like it or not, I am far more representative of the modern MMO community. Back when MMOs were a very small niche market they could afford to be nothing but hardcore. Nowadays they need broader appeal. TOR has it's nightmare content for people more hardcore than I, and it has it's really casual leveling content for those less so. For those who enjoy "hardcore sandbox" games, they are still out there. EVE is the most prominent, but others exist as well. If that's your thing, there's more than enough of them to fill the market. You just need to find the game that meets your needs instead of trying to force the game you play to change. I fully understand that part. However, we more seasoned MMOers are not the mass of the MMO population. Can we at least admit that Minecraft and SWTOR are in entirely different genres of gaming? They aren't remotely similar enough to suggest that SWTOR could benefit from being more Minecraft-like, any more than suggesting SWTOR should be more like Mount and Blade or CoD. The connection between minecraft and what most people mean when they say sandbox mmo is so tenuous that suggesting A. Minecraft is a succesful sandbox MMO. B. SWG is a sandbox MMO. C. Therefore SWTOR could be a succesful MMO if it became sandbox in a fashion similar to SWG is nonsense. Not only are they not analogous(SWG and minecraft that is), there's a huge jump in logic from "Minecraft is a succesful sandbox MMO" to the implicit assumption in C that "being a sandbox MMO is what makes an MMO succesful". I do agree that the two games are not in the same genre of gaming. They are VERY different beasts. But I disagree with the notion that Minecraft is not an MMOG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) Are you going to explain how Minecraft does not fit that definition of MMO or are you just going to tell me that wikipedia is bad? I already did. Please go back and re-read. It's a massive scavenger hunt packaged in online format. Minecraft does indeed have millions of active players, playing across all platforms (the majority these days being smart phones and tablets).... but these players play largely in isolation, by design (ie: inside their own instance of the game). The player interaction level is quite limited and does not fit "Massive" "Multiplayer" "Online" anymore then Skyrim did. Edited June 19, 2014 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uruare Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) Classic sandbox requires a rather extreme level of dedication to get anywhere at all, and I will forever remember my UO experiences. If had its upsides, but I'd never do it again. Especially not now when mmo development has reached an all time record level of minimizing their effort while maximizing your tedium. A sandbox built by the common standards of mmos today would probably fleece you every which way possible, whether by making things take a really long time to do if they were sub hungry or making cash shop investments the only real way to get ahead in a non-excruciating manner. I mean honestly, if you think swtor here isn't going to cash in on all the good housing stuff by making it CM or gated behind yet more cartel packs, you're living in a delightful but delusional dream. Housing is just one of classically sandbox elements that can easily be turned into a cash printing press. Rift certainly does it in about as friendly a manner as I think any dev studio ever will, in which you can pay cash or in gals gold for lots of stuff, while certain select things are gated by achievements. Rift is much friendlier than SWTOR'S model shall ever pretend to be too. Housing might be cool. You WILL pay for anything worth having, and probably not by why of having equal chance to earn it all by playing the game normally. That's what sandbox winds up being all about anymore in functional reality. Edited June 19, 2014 by Uruare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZahirS Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Minecraft or "Mincecraft" while popular has been stated isnt as good economy wise as SWTOR. Multiplayer-games vary from the classic RTS with multiplayer to a full Sandbox MMO, the thing is sandbox while good in theory is very hard to put it to practice, player run economy and content for that you need some very good tools, loot, weapons, armor, metals, etc and even then players will find ways to break the sand-box. I definetly think Sandbox days are over finally, people like to be protagonists in some measure and most like to win in a game, a game made so very few people actually win = is not a good business model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Multiplayer-games vary from the classic RTS with multiplayer to a full Sandbox MMO, the thing is sandbox while good in theory is very hard to put it to practice, player run economy and content for that you need some very good tools, loot, weapons, armor, metals, etc and even then players will find ways to break the sand-box. EVE Online has player run economy and very good one too. Poor CCP already knows what to expect if they try to manipulate that economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBBP Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) I already did. Please go back and re-read. It's a massive scavenger hunt packaged in online format. Minecraft does indeed have millions of active players, playing across all platforms (the majority these days being smart phones and tablets).... but these players play largely in isolation, by design (ie: inside their own instance of the game). The player interaction level is quite limited and does not fit "Massive" "Multiplayer" "Online" anymore then Skyrim did. Again, you could not be more wrong. It is a sandbox game that many people have created their own MMOs out of. There are many servers out there that have thousands of players each on them. Edited June 19, 2014 by TheBBP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) EVE Online has player run economy and very good one too. Yeah EVE is the poster child in the industry for successful sandbox MMOs IMO. It also effectively "sizes the market" too as it has been persistently successful for years.....yet can never break a million players (and frankly most EVE players are playing with multiple accounts too... so even the reported sub numbers are misleading. Baseon on EVEs long run.... it appears that about 5% of the player base in MMOs is keen for real sandbox. That's really not a big enough segment of the market to drive the big developers to feed it. So sandbox is going to continue to be a boutique business. This new scheme called "sandpark"....... jury is still out on that one. Poor CCP already knows what to expect if they try to manipulate that economy. LOL... yeah.... not that they have not tried several notable times though. Edited June 19, 2014 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalfear Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 But completing achievements doesn't reward you with anything meaningful...... a check in the box after doing something 1000 times is not content. /shrugs That's your opinion To me something that gives a title or an update is content Everything doesn't have to reward you with "meaningful rewards" (as you put it). Doing something because it puts you in a rare group that have accomplished it IS meaningful rewards. That's the problem with today's players Was a time when pride in ones character was enough Remember sitting for hours upon end learning languages in EQ Didn't really give you anything at all for learning (not even a title) but knowing you were part of a small circle who knew all the languages was enough and 100s of players would crowd around in Commons begging (or even paying) people to teach them different languages. You really don't need a speeder or armor set or companion or what ever for everything you do sometimes pride in accomplishment should be enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) Yeah EVE is the poster child in the industry for successful sandbox MMOs IMO. It also effectively "sizes the market" too as it has been persistently successful for years.....yet can never break a million players (and frankly most EVE players are playing with multiple accounts too... so even the reported sub numbers are misleading. Baseon on EVEs long run.... it appears that about 5% of the player base in MMOs is keen for real sandbox. That's really not a big enough segment of the market to drive the big developers to feed it. So sandbox is going to continue to be a boutique business. This new scheme called "sandpark"....... jury is still out on that one. Main reason is that New Eden is dark universe. You really have to be good if you want to avoid getting scammed/ganked. And the fact that you can't catch veteran players in skillpoints ever. LOL... yeah.... not that they have not tried several notable times though. What do you mean? Last one was 2011. That's your opinion He probably means that achievements that require you to kill something x number of times aren't good achievements and I agree. Good achievements are given for unusual things, something a normal gamer wouldn't even think about doing. Good example is sniper in Cartel Bazaar. Back when there was no achievements in games some gamers used to do things devs didn't even think was possible. Edited June 19, 2014 by Halinalle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomXChance Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I didn't put myself on a pedestal. I simply stated that the masses want an easy and rewarding hand-held tour. Nowhere have I stated any sort of opinion on the masses. . So saying people that do not like sandbox style do no like challenging games and "need to feel good about their time" is not condescending? That was stating your opinion on the masses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) What do you mean? Last one was 2011. Well, I don't want to rabbit jump the thread..... but the EVE devs have been caught multiple times over the years of EVE "tampering" with the economy, more so indirectly then directly. Honestly... their most egregious gaffs in this regard IMO are playing favoritism with certain corporations on items that provide long term strategic advantage to the recipients. Edited June 19, 2014 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReverendAnderson Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 If Sandbox MMO gaming is so bad, why does Minecraft have 10x the people SWTOR does?. Who said sandbox MMOs were bad? Galaxies was bad, but that wasn't because it tried to be a sandbox game. There's no more or less wrong with sandbox MMOs than there is with an MMO not being sandbox. SWTOR isn't a sandbox MMO though, and it's never going to become one, so pointing out that Minecraft is crazy, crazy popular really doesn't mean anything on this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) Well, I don't want to rabbit jump the thread..... but the EVE devs have been caught multiple times over the years of EVE "tampering" with the economy, more so indirectly then directly. Taking away FOTM isn't it though. It's balancing. Honestly... their most egregious gaffs in this regard IMO are playing favoritism with certain corporations on items that provide long term strategic advantage to the recipients. Oh, you mean Technetium. They move it around to make more conflicts in nullsec. When CFC stops attacking others, nullsec gets calm and "boring". Edited June 19, 2014 by Halinalle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomXChance Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Well, I don't want to rabbit jump the thread..... but the EVE devs have been caught multiple times over the years of EVE "tampering" with the economy, more so indirectly then directly. Honestly... their most egregious gaffs in this regard IMO are playing favoritism with certain corporations on items that provide long term strategic advantage to the recipients. During my years playing EVE I forgave them for those missteps because they handled them pretty well, and it showed that the dev's really were involved in playing the game. I wonder about that here sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBBP Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 So saying people that do not like sandbox style do no like challenging games and "need to feel good about their time" is not condescending? That was stating your opinion on the masses. Call it condescending if you like. It is true that the masses want an easy ride with quick rewards. That is why WoW skyrocketed to being a huge thing at a time when MMOs were still fairly niche. It is why EA directed BioWare to make this game the way that it did. It is why gold (credit) sellers have a big foothold in the market. Very few relish themselves in the true challenge of these games, which is to figure out how the tough, high-end content is beaten. The rest of us read the guide or watch the vid. These themepark MMOs are insanely easy outside of a small percentage of the Hard and Nightmare modes of endgame content. You cannot dispute that. So, it would be disingenuous to disregard any notion that the ease of these games is part of what makes them so popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomXChance Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) Call it condescending if you like. It is true that the masses want an easy ride with quick rewards. That is why WoW skyrocketed to being a huge thing at a time when MMOs were still fairly niche. It is why EA directed BioWare to make this game the way that it did. It is why gold (credit) sellers have a big foothold in the market. Very few relish themselves in the true challenge of these games, which is to figure out how the tough, high-end content is beaten. The rest of us read the guide or watch the vid. These themepark MMOs are insanely easy outside of a small percentage of the Hard and Nightmare modes of endgame content. You cannot dispute that. So, it would be disingenuous to disregard any notion that the ease of these games is part of what makes them so popular. Now I can agree with most of that. The way I look at is a bit different though. The more challenging you make the entire game, the smaller your market. Having a variety of difficulties in activities is key to a game with broad appeal. I just had issue with the challenge of a game being related to sandbox vs themepark. Edited June 19, 2014 by RandomXChance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewski Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Now I can agree with most of that. The way I look at is a bit different though. The more challenging you make the entire game, the smaller your market. Having a variety of difficulties in activities is key to a game with broad appeal. I just had issue with the challenge of a game being related to sandbox vs themepark. True enough about difficulty scaling with your market size. Truth be told, what people really want is something just difficult enough to provide a challenge, but not so challenging that they can't accomplish it. Add in the fact that most people aren't very good, and you get why "standard" content in most games is pretty easy. That kinda puts developers in a rough spot when it comes to developing hard content. If you make exclusive content for "hardcore" players, you get complaints from the masses about being excluded. If you make all content accessible to everyone, you get complaints from the better players about how the game is too easy. So they are trying to walk the line by offering various levels of difficulty for the same content, but that too brings criticism. So I say (again) just play the game you enjoy at the level you enjoy it. There are lots of options out there for the casual and the hardcore player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kourage Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Minecraft is not a MMORPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Minecraft is not a MMORPG It certainly can be. It doesn't have to be, but it can be. My son used to host a Minecraft server that him and his friends played on all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kourage Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 It certainly can be. It doesn't have to be, but it can be. My son used to host a Minecraft server that him and his friends played on all the time. And that's a MMORPG how ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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