Suggestion for a Raid Utility for Juggernaut/Guardian

[Picassoo]

I have played a Juggernaut tank since the start of the game and never ever stopped playing it and switched to another tank character, even when there was a time that Juggernaut's were not the ideal tank and nor were they at all the best dps.

So before I start with my suggestion let me say that Juggernaut tanks are in the best position they can be and that the Juggernaut Vengeance is good (but needs maybe a buff on the dots for shatter and impale to bring in line with other dps classes that is not my suggestion on this post).

But there is a lot of people who want a raid utility for Juggernaut DPS unique to any other classes and in fact my opinion is all classes that are dps should have a unique raid utility, I don't think that tanks nor healers should have a raid utility but rather there own unique abilities that effect themselves which they currently have and is excellent for every class that are tanks and healers.

I understand that Bioware mentioned it is hard for them to create a new ability without testing it extensively. Which is not what I am going to suggest and going to suggest instead an adjustment to the skill trees.

 

The skill that I will suggest should be moved is in the Immortal(Defense) tree called Sonic Wall. For anyone not familiar with it "Threatening Scream has a 50%/100% chance to protect all allies within range, excluding yourself, granting Sonic Wall, which absorbs a moderate amount of damage. Lasts 10 seconds."

This ability for a Tank is very hard to use in the current operations and I am guessing in the future as well if Bioware follow similar tactics. What I mean by this is that there are too many enemies/adds/targets that have to be tanked separately (for example 2nd,3rd,4th and possibly 5th boss of dread fortress, for dread palace the 1st and last boss) and therefore it is difficult for this ability to be used effectively without grabbing wrong targets.

There is a way around this however but it is maybe a very scary thing to do as a tank and that is to turn off soresu form or switch to shii-choo form and then use the ability this no longer taunts the wrong targets but causes you to lose too much agro as it becomes an agro dump!!

Which means this ability is hardly used effectively and tanks cannot use it for that reason except as a taunt.

 

This ability should be moved so that both a vengeance or a rage Juggernaut be able to use as there raid utility.

So this is my suggestion on different ways it could be moved.

 

- Merge Sonic Wall with Single Saber Mastery - This could give more dps as a Juggernaught Tank as more skill points to put in other area's but this means that less points are in the immortal tree. This also allows both Vengence and Rage to obtain the ability.

 

- Swap Sonic Wall with Pooled Hatred and put Sonic Wall under the Second Line with can only be used in shii-cho or shien form -

I understand that Pooled Hatred is not a great ability which is why I made the suggestion and tanks should in turn put points in thrown gauntlet. The reason why I say this is that the ability thrown gauntlet is hard to put points in without instead putting these points in other trees to provide more dps. Thrown Gauntlet is a very nice ability because force push finish's the cool down on Force Charge and makes chilling scream free to use.

 

- Make Deadly Reprisal a 2 point ability and swap with sonic wall and put Sonic Wall under the Second Line with can only be used in shii-cho or shien form -

Deadly Reprisal under the vengeance tree is an ability that has very little uses in, there are very little scenarios that can cause a stun unless in pvp. Again similar case with Pooled Hatred reason to be honest.

 

Those are my suggestions and my reason why Sonic Wall should not be given to a Juggernaut Tank but rather a Juggernaut DPS. Some of you may realize that my suggestion revolve around mostly the Immortal and Vengeance skill tree and not the Rage skill tree, this is because I am not as familiar with the rage skill tree and want to here from those people as well as everyone else your suggestion on a possible merger or change to allow Sonic Wall to be moved or if you have an entirely different idea.

 

My last point is Sith Warrior Marauders have a Offensive Raid Utility SO Sith Warrior Juggernaut DPS should have a Defensive Raid Utility. Exact Opposites

 

Thank you for Reading this suggestion and I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts on possible raid utility's for the Juggernaut DPS.

[hallucigenocide]

i've been gone for awhile so i'm not up to speed with what's what but i guess it would have to be something that does'nt make them seem OP but could still be usefull. so perhaps something in the lines of a cd that decreases alacrity for a couple of seconds? i mean juggernauts and guardians are meant to be feared so it would make sense if it was something in the lines of making the opponents hesitate(slower casting and what not) Edited May 10, 2014 by hallucigenocide

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

We have raid utility as DPS, Guardian leap, Offtanking adds (when needed) and high damage. What more do we need?

[wadecounty]

Armor debuff is also a big time raid utility. The only other classes that provide one are Mercs and Snipers, and only Mercs share the advantage of the armor debuff being in their rotation. I think Juggs overlook this simply because its static and always there, but it is huge.

 

And even if you have a tank jugg or merc in you raid as well, you still have the advantage of putting the armor debuff on as many targets as possible, which helps in a fight like nightmare Draxus.

[Picassoo]

i've been gone for awhile so i'm not up to speed with what's what but i guess it would have to be something that does'nt make them seem OP but could still be usefull. so perhaps something in the lines of a cd that decreases alacrity for a couple of seconds? i mean juggernauts and guardians are meant to be feared so it would make sense if it was something in the lines of making the opponents hesitate(slower casting and what not)

 

I agree with an ability that does not make us OP but could be useful just like how maruaders have bloodthirst. Which is why I suggested the ability called sonic wall that has raid utility function which already exists to be moved to dps juggernaut rather then a tank juggernaut simply to avoid them giving the argument that a new ability must go through several iteration's of testing. Just a quick reminder that Sonic Wall actually does not place anything on the caster but rather everyone around him making him/her vulnerable to incoming attacks.

 

We have raid utility as DPS, Guardian leap, Offtanking adds (when needed) and high damage. What more do we need?

 

Guardian Leap/Intercede can sacrifice huge amounts of dps and is often used more of an escape then its actually abilities. Offtanking for a dps is an extremely rare case in pve end game.

 

Armor debuff is also a big time raid utility. The only other classes that provide one are Mercs and Snipers, and only Mercs share the advantage of the armor debuff being in their rotation. I think Juggs overlook this simply because its static and always there, but it is huge.

 

And even if you have a tank jugg or merc in you raid as well, you still have the advantage of putting the armor debuff on as many targets as possible, which helps in a fight like nightmare Draxus.

 

Mercs have off-heal's and snipers have there shield which protects at a certain range. Both of these classes can self cleanse as well as put armor debuff far faster then a Juggernaut can.

Then what is the point of taking a Juggernaut DPS to endgame pve when they have nothing to add to the raid?

[Adaliaya]

I think Juggs are at good position, really. If we presume group is balanced 2 mDPS and 2 rDPS only reason I can imagine to take other class over Guardian is Inspiration. If there is already Sentinel in group there is zero reasons to pick any other class unless guy/girl who plays that class is more skilled and if so he/she deserves to be chosen regardless of class

[Vodrin]

I'd hate to see that ability changed from a PvP perspective as well. The combination taunt/absorb shield is awesome in PvP.

[Vid-szhite]

I agree with an ability that does not make us OP but could be useful just like how maruaders have bloodthirst. Which is why I suggested the ability called sonic wall that has raid utility function which already exists to be moved to dps juggernaut rather then a tank juggernaut simply to avoid them giving the argument that a new ability must go through several iteration's of testing. Just a quick reminder that Sonic Wall actually does not place anything on the caster but rather everyone around him making him/her vulnerable to incoming attacks.

 

I don't think it's needed. Juggs can already cheese some mechanics through Saber Reflect -- the orbs in HM/NM DF are a great example. They are also by far the most durable DPS in the game.

 

Guardian Leap/Intercede can sacrifice huge amounts of dps and is often used more of an escape then its actually abilities. Offtanking for a dps is an extremely rare case in pve end game.

 

This is true. It's usually not a DPS's job to offtank unless both tanks are dead, but in such a case, a taunt can go a long way towards giving the healers just a few more seconds to get the tank back up, and Juggs are extremely durable even without tank talents, so you can do the job better than just about anyone else. If you do need to stance dance, Jugg is also the only AC that can do so instantly and on the move, no matter how much resource you have. Intercede is also a VERY useful movement tool when you need to reach the back line in a hurry. It is instant, completely wipes threat from your target, and it bypasses any height gap that might exist. I've used it dozens of times as a DPS just to get back to the fight faster when charge is on cooldown, or to reach a ranged DPS when a nasty mechanic forced me out of melee range.

 

Mercs have off-heal's and snipers have there shield which protects at a certain range. Both of these classes can self cleanse as well as put armor debuff far faster then a Juggernaut can. Then what is the point of taking a Juggernaut DPS to endgame pve when they have nothing to add to the raid?

 

In the last paragraph, you state that Jugg offtanking isn't useful, then immediately point to Mercs' Offhealing like it's somehow different. Mercs' offhealing is just as useful as Juggs' offtanking, because without talents, Mercs' healing is really bad. If a Merc does choose to offheal, it not only badly impacts their heat generation and wastes a ton of DPS uptime, but if they are Arsenal, they must also blow ALL their stacks of tracer lock when they use healing scan, which means a massive portion of their DPS is wasted, since most of it hinges on that big 10k Heatseeker Missile that you get from having 5 stacks of tracer lock. Arsenal is also the only merc tree with an armor reduce, so if you bring a Pyro merc, you don't get an armor reduction without a Jugg or a Sniper, and a Sniper must lower his DPS to use Shatter Shot. You DO want to bring a Pyro merc instead of arsenal, as well, because Pyro is more mobile, and its DPS output is higher than Arsenal, likely because Arsenal has an armor reducing ability.

 

I wonder why you state that Mercs can place an armor debuff on the target faster than the Jugg can, when the Jugg can literally do it with his Saber Throw opener before the merc has even finished casting Tracer Missile. Jugg not only can use Armor Reduce in the opening salvo, he reapplies it in his rotation. Yes, self-cleanse is an option for both Snipers and Mercs, but Snipers' self cleanse is on a 60-second cooldown, so it is not that reliable.

 

Keep in mind, with all that's been said, you still have much more reason to bring a Jugg DPS than a Powertech DPS, and my guild does run with a Powertech DPS in HM DP, and they are glad to have him. You DO want a melee DPS during the Dread Council fight, because Calphayus reflects damage unless you're standing very close to him, and he must be kited, so you can't possibly sic an Arsenal Merc or Sniper on him. You need mobility. Besides, your arsenal merc is better suited to attacking Tyrans and Bestia during this phase. If your melee DPS chasing Calphayus is one that can reduce his armor, even better.

 

Speaking of DP, the Tyrans fight has a LOT of movement, and that can wreak havoc on an Arsenal/Sniper's DPS. Yes, it does hurt Juggs too, but it hurts the Merc/Sniper just as much, if not more. This isn't "move away from the evil circle" style movement, either, it's "you're about to BECOME an evil circle, get it away from our group and when it drops at your feet, run the hell back before it kills you dead." Everyone's DPS suffers during the "run away" part, but Juggs can get right back into the fight instantly with Force Charge, so we can handle the movement in that fight better than almost anyone else. We're the example Powertechs point to when asking for a gap closer. That should tell you something.

 

There's ample reasons to bring a Jugg DPS. Things we take for granted like Saber Reflect and Force Charge are actually among those reasons. Juggs are in a better place than you think. We don't need more utility, we've got plenty.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Vid-szhite