2 GS, 1 Scout

[nyghtrunner]

There are alternate explanations for that.

I do not die to gunships I'm approaching.

 

This one is unworthy. This one bows to the Enkindler's infinite wisdom and grovels for forgiveness that this one ever questioned the Enkindler, who brought knowledge to the galaxy. The Enkindler is a perfect scout pilot, and its brilliance and insight has humbled this poor servant. This one humbly requests that the Enkindler impart this perfect knowledge that this one may one day strive to be the pilot the Enkindler is.

Edited May 7, 2014 by nyghtrunner

[Altheran]

That mate would have to be flying within 500m of you for that to work, and even if that's true you should evade anyway since at that range he could hit you even if he was aiming for your buddy.

 

[...]

 

TLDR if the gunship is looking at you, run away

 

And when you see them with a slight angle boost towards them thinking "good they didn't notice me" and shoot you, then you realize they don't have to perfectly face you.

 

TLDR you've been shot by a ship that gave you literally no hint you were the target.

 

No really in need to be 500m around someone else... Go in your Gunship once and use the infamous zoom out. You'll almost always have 2 or 3 people in your firing arc. When you're used to this, you can't take their direction too seriously unless they're really dead center on you.

 

(In before of "look at the target name plate" Zoom and I were speaking of those selecting someone else before shooting)

 

P.S. : these guys are very rare... To the point I suppose they're not doing it on purpose. But fact is I did it on occasional times, and the effect on players' behavior is huge.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Altheran

[Kuciwalker]

This one is unworthy. This one bows to the Enkindler's infinite wisdom and grovels for forgiveness that this one ever questioned the Enkindler, who brought knowledge to the galaxy. The Enkindler is a perfect scout pilot, and its brilliance and insight has humbled this poor servant. This one humbly requests that the Enkindler impart this perfect knowledge that this one may one day strive to be the pilot the Enkindler is.

 

See my earlier post in the thread where I detailed exactly how to deal with two gunships.

[Zoom_VI]

And when you see them with a slight angle boost towards them thinking "good they didn't notice me" and shoot you, then you realize they don't have to perfectly face you.

 

TLDR you've been shot by a ship that gave you literally no hint you were the target.

 

No really in need to be 500m around someone else... Go in your Gunship once and use the infamous zoom out. You'll almost always have 2 or 3 people in your firing arc. When you're used to this, you can't take their direction too seriously unless they're really dead center on you.

 

(In before of "look at the target name plate" Zoom and I were speaking of those selecting someone else before shooting)

 

P.S. : these guys are very rare... To the point I suppose they're not doing it on purpose. But fact is I did it on occasional times, and the effect on players' behavior is huge.

 

Zooming out does not change your tracking penalties. As Kuci explain earlier in this thread the window a gunship can hit a target in is very narrow. While it is true that a gunship could take a shot at you while not meeting the criteria in my previous post, that gunship has far less than half chance to hit you, to the point that no good gunship would even take that shot.

 

Now I might concede that this rule may not apply to ships with really low evasion as most of my experience is scout biased.

[Kuciwalker]

Zooming out does not change your tracking penalties. As Kuci explain earlier in this thread the window a gunship can hit a target in is very narrow. While it is true that a gunship could take a shot at you while not meeting the criteria in my previous post, that gunship has far less than half chance to hit you, to the point that no good gunship would even take that shot.

 

Now I might concede that this rule may not apply to ships with really low evasion as most of my experience is scout biased.

 

I will admit that I will take wider shots when I have Wingman up.

[nyghtrunner]

See my earlier post in the thread where I detailed exactly how to deal with two gunships.

 

This one will study it in great detail so that it too may know how to blow its enemies to bits.

 

I don't care to read your "how to" guide. I've said my piece. You didn't care, but quite frankly responded with a holier than thou attitude. You were totally dismissive to my statements. That's not an attitude that's going to endear me to whatever it is you have to say. I tried to disagree with you kindly with a counterargument to which you replied with dismissal and snark (something you've done to people all over this forum). So let me make my thoughts on this quite clear.

 

You're full of yourself, and I'm done engaging with you.

[WiseStranger]

This one will study it in great detail so that it too may know how to blow its enemies to bits.

 

I don't care to read your "how to" guide. I've said my piece. You didn't care, but quite frankly responded with a holier than thou attitude. You were totally dismissive to my statements. That's not an attitude that's going to endear me to whatever it is you have to say. I tried to disagree with you kindly with a counterargument to which you replied with dismissal and snark (something you've done to people all over this forum). So let me make my thoughts on this quite clear.

 

You're full of yourself, and I'm done engaging with you.

 

I've read your last posts in this thread. It might be for the better that you stop engaging in this thread. What Kuci posted is correct and if you can't approach a gunship without being blown to bits - it's your personal skill problem. Top scout pilots don't have issues dealing with a gunship 1 vs 1.

It's rare when a hit from a slug railgun kills you from 100% Shields+Hull (lucky crit on a scout or damage overcharge are exceptions). If you don't get that you've been hit by a railgun - it's your problem being a bad pilot and having no awareness. Being hit with Ion Railgun is not a death penalty in many situations either. If you made a decision to engage when you need to run - it's your problem.

Railguns have extremely low accuracy at the edge of the firing arc. Combine that with targets evasion, and the chance to hit is close to 0%. If you still adamant on charging at a gunship head on or even BRing head on - blame yourself for your deaths.

[Altheran]

Now I might concede that this rule may not apply to ships with really low evasion as most of my experience is scout biased.

 

I'm a Strike diehard, so my low evasion (10%) may explain why I see this strategy working more than not.

 

But again this is a very rare behavior. There are maybe only one or two players who I'm sure they do it on purpose, one of them has moved to mine layers since it's FOTM (that guy is always on the lamest tactics. Parked Sting with 100% ? Done. Ion tap ? Done. Parked SIM ? Doing.), the other one has disappeared since BR nerf.

 

I've done it to try, I noticed it occasionally granted me some easier kills, but personally I think it's not worth the effort. But still, it had positive results. (Not surprising since there is no drawback but the effort of doing it and not seeing buffs/debuffs - not that it works fine anyway, nor that the target HUD give particularly interesting info)

[mr_sim]

I don't care to read your "how to" guide. I've said my piece. You didn't care, but quite frankly responded with a holier than thou attitude. You were totally dismissive to my statements. That's not an attitude that's going to endear me to whatever it is you have to say. I tried to disagree with you kindly with a counterargument to which you replied with dismissal and snark (something you've done to people all over this forum). So let me make my thoughts on this quite clear.

 

You're full of yourself, and I'm done engaging with you.

 

^This.

 

I'm pretty sure you are right, he is a closed minded person who thinks only his way is the right way, based upon the words he's said.

[tommmsunb]

^This.

 

I'm pretty sure you are right, he is a closed minded person who thinks only his way is the right way, based upon the words he's said.

 

Consdering I have yet to meet a better gunship pilot than kuci on 5 different servers I think he has a right to be close-minded and have made conclusions as to what is useless and what is useful. Feedback shields is garbage, plasma is situational at best, light laser cannons defeat the purpose of the ship, you might be successful against bad players but good players won't die to that.

[Scrabs]

This one will study it in great detail so that it too may know how to blow its enemies to bits.

 

I don't care to read your "how to" guide. I've said my piece. You didn't care, but quite frankly responded with a holier than thou attitude. You were totally dismissive to my statements. That's not an attitude that's going to endear me to whatever it is you have to say. I tried to disagree with you kindly with a counterargument to which you replied with dismissal and snark (something you've done to people all over this forum). So let me make my thoughts on this quite clear.

 

You're full of yourself, and I'm done engaging with you.

 

I'd like to know who you are/what server you play on?

 

Alex is a really good gunship so don't dismiss him like that, his points are solid.

 

Also from my scout experiences Feedback "can" be annoying if you're really low, but that's certainly very situational and doesn't help the gunship player every time you use it like DF would.

As for Plasma, meh I don't know. It's not something I'm afraid of as a scout, it can never beat the two other options imo.

 

As for the OP topic. Yes a scout should be able to 1v2 the gunships, ofcourse there are some circumstances/RNG that factor in, but you'd have to get pretty unlucky if it was ever a factor.

[mr_sim]

Consdering I have yet to meet a better gunship pilot than kuci on 5 different servers

 

That only proves it's the right build for him. Also 5 servers is not an impressive number as rumor has it that most servers are GSF suffering and there are possibly only 3 strong GSF servers. Though I will admit I see your on TEH and that server is on the "probably strong" list. I say probably as there is no extensive research I've ever seen comparing GSF across all servers.

 

I think he has a right to be close-minded and have made conclusions as to what is useless and what is useful.

 

Reread those words of your then continue to reread them until you understand what you actually just said. If you don't figure it out, remember that this is a DISCUSSION forum.

 

Feedback shields is garbage

 

True

 

plasma is situational at best

 

Same can be said of Ion rail

 

light laser cannons defeat the purpose of the ship

 

Combine them with rotational engines and it changes. If your defining GS as strictly a long range sniper then really is there a such thing a purposeful primary weapon?

 

Let's just not talk about the fact that the new Type 3 is basically a strike fighter with a rail gun. and the type 2 is defiantly 33% strike fighter too. No seriously don't discuss it unless we are going to start a whole new thread, then I'll happily participate.

 

 

All seriousness you boy does not seem interested in what other people are saying. I fully support anyone who thinks that he is tiresome and not worth engaging in a discussion, from what I've observed they appear to be correct in their assessment of his lack of FORUM etiquette.

[SammyGStatus]

Same can be said of Ion rail

 

There is no bad time to use ion rail . There are definitely times where plasma is a bad option (which is every time). You CC your opponent, which is amazing AND helpful for both yourself and your team. Who cares if you don't get the last kill? You're still helping your team out. Plasma leaves a light tickle after you get hit... Not much else.

 

And the fact that he's one of the best gunship pilots to play the game should lend credence to his beliefs. The dude literally works with numbers all day, and knows the possibilities of every weapon at every range (and has done the proper math to back up his claims).

 

Sure you can play with the other components and have a different build.... but you're going to be VERYYYYYY worse off as a result, and won't be able to come close to the numbers that are consistently output by this build against GOOD pilots. There will always be an optimal build, regardless of balancing efforts, and this gunship build isn't only the best for him.... It's the best for everyone. You die less, you do more damage, you're able to get more kills because there are no energy issues, etc. You may not like his tone (he is holier than thou too jk), but he's had this conversation so much with so many people who just seem to love being wrong. There's a reason why we're backing him up here Sim - he's not wrong when he's talking about this stuff.

 

I will agree that Scrab and Tom could probably provide an interesting scenario for a 2v2 against Alex n myself. 1v2 imo still favors the scout.

 

BTW, LLCs on a Gunship = noob status. If I see a GS using these, I laugh. Relative to BLCs, they're just absolute garbage. Two shots cripple scouts assuming you can hit them. I use turning for my T3 BR, and while I can circle a scout and gain opportunity to hit him, LLCs are a detriment in any and all cases. It is known

Edited May 7, 2014 by SammyGStatus

[mr_sim]

There is no bad time to use ion rail . There are definitely times where plasma is a bad option (which is every time). You CC your opponent, which is amazing AND helpful for both yourself and your team. Who cares if you don't get the last kill? You're still helping your team out. Plasma leaves a light tickle after you get hit... Not much else.

 

And the fact that he's one of the best gunship pilots to play the game should lend credence to his beliefs. The dude literally works with numbers all day, and knows the possibilities of every weapon at every range (and has done the proper math to back up his claims).

 

Sure you can play with the other components and have a different build.... but you're going to be VERYYYYYY worse off as a result, and won't be able to come close to the numbers that are consistently output by this build against GOOD pilots. There will always be an optimal build, regardless of balancing efforts, and this gunship build isn't only the best for him.... It's the best for everyone. You die less, you do more damage, you're able to get more kills because there are no energy issues, etc. You may not like his tone (he is holier than thou too jk), but he's had this conversation so much with so many people who just seem to love being wrong. There's a reason why we're backing him up here Sim - he's not wrong when he's talking about this stuff.

 

Never said he was wrong. in fact I said "there are other effective builds on a type 1 GS".

 

I think you miss the benefit of diversity. For example 2 ion rail guns are not more powerful then 1, this thread describes a scenario of 2 GS, if both had identical build then in aggregate both would be weaker then 2 GS with diverse builds.

 

Lets agree that true n00b status is not having SRG. But essentially only a limited number of GS need IRG as their strengths do not really stack, PRG does offer an armor debuff and therefor does offer a team value, perhaps more so then a second IRG would. the fact is that SRG is the only thing to actually kill things with so the second secondary is always going to be a if this then that topic with GS.

 

I will agree that Scrab and Tom could probably provide an interesting scenario for a 2v2 against Alex n myself. 1v2 imo still favors the scout.

 

I find what you say here confusing, please clarify.

 

if as you say 1v2 already favors scout(ignore the fact that I disagree) how does 2v2 change anything? is that 2 scout v 2 GS? Does that not just make it so the GS are even more dead?

 

BTW, LLCs on a Gunship = noob status. If I see a GS using these, I laugh. Relative to BLCs, they're just absolute garbage. Two shots cripple scouts assuming you can hit them. I use turning for my T3 BR, and while I can circle a scout and gain opportunity to hit him, LLCs are a detriment in any and all cases. It is known

 

T3 BR? maybe I'm running low on mental bandwidth but I have no idea what that is, unless that's one of the new PTS ships.

 

As for LLC they are not as you say "a detriment in any and all cases". Are you refering only on GS or to the LLC component on all classes. If it's the latter then you are simply wrong and I welcome you to my server any day and will introduce you to LLC + frequency capacitor. As far as LLC on GS they appeal to a limited play style and yes in general are inferior to BLC. However if you are like me and are very experienced with LLC from other classes then they can be made effective. Remember before you reply that Rail guns are the true weapon on T1 GS and the lasers are in the end more of a trim option lets not make a mountain out of it.

[tommmsunb]

Not quoting that because block but first T3 BR is the third upgrade for Barrel roll, also the benefits do indeed stack. Because of weapon power and for possible angles from which to hit, second of all, I have been to all of the big GSF servers. But thanks for discounting my words based on assumption, third of all, i stand by what i said about alex having a right to be closed minded.

[SammyGStatus]

I think you miss the benefit of diversity. For example 2 ion rail guns are not more powerful then 1, this thread describes a scenario of 2 GS, if both had identical build then in aggregate both would be weaker then 2 GS with diverse builds.

 

From a diversity perspective, yes. From a fundamental performance perspective, I disagree. Diversity is always an advantage because you can have different aspects brought in, but when those different aspects will offer poorer results, it doesn't make sense to stack diversity there (If I'm shooting at a target IRL that's a kilometer away, I'd want two snipers and not a sniper / sub machine gun).

 

Lets agree that true n00b status is not having SRG.

WE AGREE!!!

 

But essentially only a limited number of GS need IRG as their strengths do not really stack, PRG does offer an armor debuff and therefor does offer a team value, perhaps more so then a second IRG would.

Two ion shots destroy shields completely, reduce all power, and prevent regen. Count the AOE effect if they're close together, and they won't be able to fire or move (save popping booster overcharge that's at least T3 (I believe that's when you get the 'restore 20 engine power' perk). The reduced armor doesn't make a difference because without shields, they target will fall to a not-even-full slug on a scout. The Slug's T3 has 100% armor ignore, so the plasma's armor drain is still worthless.

 

the fact is that SRG is the only thing to actually kill things with so the second secondary is always going to be a if this then that topic with GS.

As I stated before, the Slug's T3 ignores armor which is the biggest draw that you've pointed out to using Plasma (reduced armor). Also, the plasma's ability to inflict damage on hulls period is countered by the slug's main purpose of destroying. Either way, you still need to hit your target, and that is hell'a easier if that target can't move or regen energy.

 

I find what you say here confusing, please clarify.

Roger that!

 

if as you say 1v2 already favors scout(ignore the fact that I disagree) how does 2v2 change anything? is that 2 scout v 2 GS? Does that not just make it so the GS are even more dead?

I believe that against THE RIGHT scout, a 2 GS v 1 scout will be favored for the scout (particularly Alex in his scout because he specifically hunts GSs EXTREMELY EFFECTIVELY as I recall from my JM days). If played properly (depending on what map too), a scout will be able to close the distance on one GS and zerg him quicker than the other GS would've been able to deter the scout. I haven't tested the scenario yet, so I don't know for sure, but I know that Alex has a serious advantage against me in his scout 1v1 when I'm on my GS, and with the amount of evasion going on, there is no reason to believe that another gunship would be able to hit what I could not because of the ridiculous evasion of a scout.

 

Since Scrab and Tomeatsjeans are the top two scouts I've flown with / against, they'd be the two pilots I could see providing a pretty damn solid assessment for the scenario, because I think the results may change with a 2 v2 (the AOE of the ion may cause a peel, one could overexert, get caught out of position, etc.)

 

T3 BR? maybe I'm running low on mental bandwidth but I have no idea what that is, unless that's one of the new PTS ships.

Tier 3 BR offers either speed or turning, and I always take turning for combat against those pesky T2 (Type 2) Scouts

 

As for LLC they are not as you say "a detriment in any and all cases". Are you refering only on GS or to the LLC component on all classes. If it's the latter then you are simply wrong and I welcome you to my server any day and will introduce you to LLC + frequency capacitor. As far as LLC on GS they appeal to a limited play style and yes in general are inferior to BLC. However if you are like me and are very experienced with LLC from other classes then they can be made effective. Remember before you reply that Rail guns are the true weapon on T1 GS and the lasers are in the end more of a trim option lets not make a mountain out of it.

Only on GS brosef. I can guarantee you will not do more DPS / Damage / get more kills with LLCs on a GS than I would running BLCs because 1 slug plus 1 shot BLC = dead scout (again, assuming their evasion cd's have expired)

 

That was my first breakdown assessment Very fun!

[mr_sim]

Not quoting that because block but first T3 BR is the third upgrade for Barrel roll, also the benefits do indeed stack. Because of weapon power and for possible angles from which to hit, second of all, I have been to all of the big GSF servers. But thanks for discounting my words based on assumption, third of all, i stand by what i said about alex having a right to be closed minded.

 

Thanks for the clarification on T3 BR.

 

To be clear I was not at all insulting TEH, the opposite in fact. To my knowlege the 3 most active GSF servers are:

 

The Harbinger

The Ebon Hawk

Jedi Covenant

 

Nobody to my knowledge has done comprehensive and consistently accurate research on which servers are the most active. BioWare obviously isn't going to release that info. As for how I came up with the above 3, is based on reading peoples feedback in these forums and weighing consistent consensus.

 

Lastly please explain to my why in a DISCUSSION FORUM anyone would want to interact with a closed minded poster? Certainly anyone has the right to be closed minded, I don't believe that they have the right to be respected for their closed mindedness.

[tommmsunb]

Thanks for the clarification on T3 BR.

 

To be clear I was not at all insulting TEH, the opposite in fact. To my knowlege the 3 most active GSF servers are:

 

The Harbinger

The Ebon Hawk

Jedi Covenant

 

Nobody to my knowledge has done comprehensive and consistently accurate research on which servers are the most active. BioWare obviously isn't going to release that info. As for how I came up with the above 3, is based on reading peoples feedback in these forums and weighing consistent consensus.

 

Lastly please explain to my why in a DISCUSSION FORUM anyone would want to interact with a closed minded poster? Certainly anyone has the right to be closed minded, I don't believe that they have the right to be respected for their closed mindedness.

 

Because this discussion wasn't about the build, it was about a hypothetical situation. What you're doing is similar to going up to an evolutionary biologist and presenting an opinion on how humans evolved and then when he tells you you're incorrect for the billionth time in a more aggressive tone telling him he's worthy of your contempt for not giving your opinion a look.

 

And for the record, I have done the research, the Harbinger is where you'll find the most consistently good players any time of the day. When we left JM we checked out Ebon Hawk, Jedi Covenant, POT5 and The Harbinger. POT5 was dying when we got there, Ebon Hawk will die because a good number of players are more willing to quit than improve when faced with a challenge, this includes the list of so-called "aces" that they made, there are a few gems like Tolgid and Nine who will keep queueing no matter the circumstances but I was overall letdown by the way people behaved. I was told that I am whats wrong with GSF, that I farm people, and even after all of the winning people doubted what I had to say on every subject. Furthermore, I was told I flew a bomber by somebody who people considered an ace, I was asked about my gunship build by somebody who people considered an ace. I don't fly any of those ships.

 

, Jedi Covenant according to Leggo didn't have any competition worth noting.

 

Finally, The Harbinger consistently had the most pops as well as the most challenging games.

Edited May 7, 2014 by tommmsunb

[Kuciwalker]

I'm happy to be conciliatory in cases where there is a reasonable debate, but Type 1 gunship building isn't one. This has been well-known for months and there's been a longstanding consensus both conversationally and on this forum that the Type 1 gunship has only a single viable build (and that this is a problem). If we were talking about optimal Flashfire builds I would express no certainty.

 

The case for every gunship component is very easy to make even a priori:

 

Blasters

 

Gunships do not like being at close range. It is unhappy. If you are at close range you want to get out of it ASAP. Additionally your close-range engagement is going to be one of two circumstances:

 

1. Head-to-head: this is mostly likely against an oncoming fighter that you have hopefully just railgunned in the face. In this case the fact that the enemy will soon be at extremely close range and his wounded state argue strongly for BLC as a finisher.
   
2. Being pursued: if you are being shut down (by a scout, let's be serious) you are not going to have the option of the kind of sustained fire LLC needs to shine. BLC lets you sneak in hits when you can get them.
   

 

Additionally BLC is the single fastest way to take down turrets (if you are already on the node it is far better than slug) and is overwhelmingly the best weapon for fights on the node generally.

 

All of the reasons that Flashfires prefer BLC apply here, PLUS gunship-specific reasons that militate for it even more strongly.

 

Railguns

 

First, you have to have slug. It just isn't optional. You need the ability to hit armored targets from range if only to deal with turrets; bombers seal the deal. You are crippled without slug.

 

But then, even if you didn't need it for the armor pen it would still be better than plasma by a longshot. It has +8% accuracy (for a gunship, accuracy is everything). The shield pen has very high utility value. And damage now >> damage later. The enemy's death six seconds from now is little consolation for your death, now, when he gets off the killing blow that slug could have prevented.

 

So the only comparison left is ion vs plasma. Well, the thing is we already have slug for dealing damage. In terms of raw DPS plasma does just shy of 15% more damage. BUT. Plasma only ignores at best 20% of armor (I haven't tested whether that pen actually applies to the fixed portion of the damage or only to the dot). So that's a 5-10% dps loss against everyone but a scout. But it also has 8% less accuracy than slug, which hurts it most against scouts! So effective dps from slug is actually equalish or better in every real-world situation.

 

I said I was going to compare plasma to ion, then did a bunch of math comparing plasma to slug. What gives? Well, the point was that plasma is not even situationally better than slug. You just don't ever want to use it if you have a slug railgun equipped. Ion is very definitely better than slug in some circumstances (a lot of circumstances!) which means it is the only legitimate choice for your second railgun.

 

Shield

 

Distortion field is the only one that gives you a lock break. That sentence alone is enough to answer this question, but it gets even worse for Feedback and Fortress.

 

Feedback: this doesn't actually defend you except in the extreme corner case that it kills your target. Most of the time that won't be the case - most of the time the damage will go to shields and be wasted - and so you are leaving yourself at a serious defensive disadvantage. Distortion dramatically reduces incoming damage for its duration even aside from the lock break, and it's on a short cooldown.

 

Fortress: this may be the worst trap component in the game. Fortress shield makes you more vulnerable while you're using it. Aside from the obvious fact that sitting still is the worst thing to do when attacked, I know from the feeling in my gut when I see a target pop Fortress that it's a bad call. I have a Pavloving sense that I am going to be rewarded momentarily with a free kill.

 

Engine

 

Barrel roll is the only one that gives you a lock break. Again, this is basically enough to seal the deal, but things get worse.

 

Interdiction drive is a worse use of engine energy than actually just boosting for the same duration. It's ridiculous. I don't know how they think this is a good idea.

 

Weapon power converter would be amazing if you never had to get anywhere and were never attacked. But gunships actually have to find the action, and they are high-priority targets. You need a defensive engine.

 

Rotational thrusters might actually be a defensible choice if they had a lock break - but they don't, and at the same time they also don't provide the tremendous defensive or travel benefits of barrel roll.

 

Armor

 

Back in the bad old days of love taps, it was very, very obvious why you had to maximize evasion at any cost.

 

Since I am usually grouped with the only other gunship I know that has the presence of mind to use ion, I lack recent experience of the receiving end of ion stunlock. But the straightforward mathematics that tell scouts to stack evasion are relentless, and apply with similar force to gunships. You're running dfield, which means you have a solid base evasion, and evasion becomes more powerful as you have more of it. You have a much larger shield than hull pool, and evasion defends both your shield AND your hull, which makes it mathematically far better than DR or +hull. (Also, DR is neutered by far too many weapons, some of which are the ones you are most worried about.)

 

Magazine

 

OK, come on. Regen magazine is just ridiculously superior to power pool magazine given the current weapon regen rates. The math here isn't even close.

 

Reactor

 

I have posted extensively on the choice between Large, Regen, and Turbo reactors in multiple threads before, with mathematics included. The Cliff's Notes version is that Turbo only outperforms Large in a very narrow range of circumstances (that you are not very likely to encounter), and Large is superior in all others. (This analaysis is reversed if you are running Directional Shields, but those are not available on a Type 1.) Regen isn't even close. And Large's value is increased, proportionally, by the fact that dfield has a shield pool penalty - since Large is calculated as a proportion of your base shields.

 

Large is also tactically superior for gunship defensive flying, which emphasizes escape into temporary safe zones where you can rest to recuperate engine pool.

 

Sensors

 

This component is virtually irrelevant, but the advantages of Dampening are very, very clear.

[Kuciwalker]

I think you miss the benefit of diversity. For example 2 ion rail guns are not more powerful then 1

 

False, actually. Ion scales linearly pretty well due to the dispersed natural of GSF, and AOE has good stacking value. Finally, in the "worst case" where you both full-charge ion one target, you have now guaranteed that he is at zero engine and weapon pool for the next 6s, the hardest CC in the game short of sabo probe.

[mr_sim]

I'm happy to be conciliatory in cases where there is a reasonable debate, but Type 1 gunship building isn't one. This has been well-known for months and there's been a longstanding consensus both conversationally and on this forum that the Type 1 gunship has only a single viable build (and that this is a problem). If we were talking about optimal Flashfire builds I would express no certainty.

 

The case for every gunship component is very easy to make even a priori:

 

 

 

Blasters

 

Gunships do not like being at close range. It is unhappy. If you are at close range you want to get out of it ASAP. Additionally your close-range engagement is going to be one of two circumstances:

 

1. Head-to-head: this is mostly likely against an oncoming fighter that you have hopefully just railgunned in the face. In this case the fact that the enemy will soon be at extremely close range and his wounded state argue strongly for BLC as a finisher.
   
2. Being pursued: if you are being shut down (by a scout, let's be serious) you are not going to have the option of the kind of sustained fire LLC needs to shine. BLC lets you sneak in hits when you can get them.
   

 

Additionally BLC is the single fastest way to take down turrets (if you are already on the node it is far better than slug) and is overwhelmingly the best weapon for fights on the node generally.

 

All of the reasons that Flashfires prefer BLC apply here, PLUS gunship-specific reasons that militate for it even more strongly.

 

Railguns

 

First, you have to have slug. It just isn't optional. You need the ability to hit armored targets from range if only to deal with turrets; bombers seal the deal. You are crippled without slug.

 

But then, even if you didn't need it for the armor pen it would still be better than plasma by a longshot. It has +8% accuracy (for a gunship, accuracy is everything). The shield pen has very high utility value. And damage now >> damage later. The enemy's death six seconds from now is little consolation for your death, now, when he gets off the killing blow that slug could have prevented.

 

So the only comparison left is ion vs plasma. Well, the thing is we already have slug for dealing damage. In terms of raw DPS plasma does just shy of 15% more damage. BUT. Plasma only ignores at best 20% of armor (I haven't tested whether that pen actually applies to the fixed portion of the damage or only to the dot). So that's a 5-10% dps loss against everyone but a scout. But it also has 8% less accuracy than slug, which hurts it most against scouts! So effective dps from slug is actually equalish or better in every real-world situation.

 

I said I was going to compare plasma to ion, then did a bunch of math comparing plasma to slug. What gives? Well, the point was that plasma is not even situationally better than slug. You just don't ever want to use it if you have a slug railgun equipped. Ion is very definitely better than slug in some circumstances (a lot of circumstances!) which means it is the only legitimate choice for your second railgun.

 

Shield

 

Distortion field is the only one that gives you a lock break. That sentence alone is enough to answer this question, but it gets even worse for Feedback and Fortress.

 

Feedback: this doesn't actually defend you except in the extreme corner case that it kills your target. Most of the time that won't be the case - most of the time the damage will go to shields and be wasted - and so you are leaving yourself at a serious defensive disadvantage. Distortion dramatically reduces incoming damage for its duration even aside from the lock break, and it's on a short cooldown.

 

Fortress: this may be the worst trap component in the game. Fortress shield makes you more vulnerable while you're using it. Aside from the obvious fact that sitting still is the worst thing to do when attacked, I know from the feeling in my gut when I see a target pop Fortress that it's a bad call. I have a Pavloving sense that I am going to be rewarded momentarily with a free kill.

 

Engine

 

Barrel roll is the only one that gives you a lock break. Again, this is basically enough to seal the deal, but things get worse.

 

Interdiction drive is a worse use of engine energy than actually just boosting for the same duration. It's ridiculous. I don't know how they think this is a good idea.

 

Weapon power converter would be amazing if you never had to get anywhere and were never attacked. But gunships actually have to find the action, and they are high-priority targets. You need a defensive engine.

 

Rotational thrusters might actually be a defensible choice if they had a lock break - but they don't, and at the same time they also don't provide the tremendous defensive or travel benefits of barrel roll.

 

Armor

 

Back in the bad old days of love taps, it was very, very obvious why you had to maximize evasion at any cost.

 

Since I am usually grouped with the only other gunship I know that has the presence of mind to use ion, I lack recent experience of the receiving end of ion stunlock. But the straightforward mathematics that tell scouts to stack evasion are relentless, and apply with similar force to gunships. You're running dfield, which means you have a solid base evasion, and evasion becomes more powerful as you have more of it. You have a much larger shield than hull pool, and evasion defends both your shield AND your hull, which makes it mathematically far better than DR or +hull. (Also, DR is neutered by far too many weapons, some of which are the ones you are most worried about.)

 

Magazine

 

OK, come on. Regen magazine is just ridiculously superior to power pool magazine given the current weapon regen rates. The math here isn't even close.

 

Reactor

 

I have posted extensively on the choice between Large, Regen, and Turbo reactors in multiple threads before, with mathematics included. The Cliff's Notes version is that Turbo only outperforms Large in a very narrow range of circumstances (that you are not very likely to encounter), and Large is superior in all others. (This analaysis is reversed if you are running Directional Shields, but those are not available on a Type 1.) Regen isn't even close. And Large's value is increased, proportionally, by the fact that dfield has a shield pool penalty - since Large is calculated as a proportion of your base shields.

 

Large is also tactically superior for gunship defensive flying, which emphasizes escape into temporary safe zones where you can rest to recuperate engine pool.

 

Sensors

 

This component is virtually irrelevant, but the advantages of Dampening are very, very clear.

 

OK I managed to pry my fingers away from my face long enough to reply. I am full aware of the build that you describe I've been aware of it for a very long time. I'm also aware of it merits I've been aware of them for a very long time.

 

I even agree that it is the most effective build for a Type 1 GS. This also I have known for a very long time.

 

My words were: There are other effective builds.

 

NOT more effective.

 

Just simply exist.

 

We can argue the philosophy of why you must only use the most effective build. OR we can enjoy our gameplay and experiment for ourselves which build we enjoy playing.

 

BTW My true expertise is in Strike Fighters and I tend to fly a GS too much like a Strike fighter too. Weird? certainly, but it works for me.

[Kuciwalker]

My words were: There are other effective builds.

 

NOT more effective.

 

Just simply exist.

 

We can argue the philosophy of why you must only use the most effective build. OR we can enjoy our gameplay and experiment for ourselves which build we enjoy playing.

 

"Effective" but objectively and strictly dominated builds cease to be "effective" in high-level play.

 

A stock ship is "effective" when piloted by a veteran player against green pilots.

[SammyGStatus]

I wonder what desired result you would be building an alternative GS for? Underwhelming performance? :D If you enjoy flying it, it's good enough for you then

[mr_sim]

I wonder what desired result you would be building an alternative GS for? Underwhelming performance? :D If you enjoy flying it, it's good enough for you then

 

Isn't hacker culture about pounding on things to see what breaks to make it better?

 

Aren't hybrid builds telling the Devs you have a better idea?

 

The "Best" build that we are all refering to is basically the stock build with only few minor tweaks and changes. The build is certainly not like the from the ground up rebuilds I have on some of my strike fighters. Really you guys should encourage those who venture into the unknown who knows what they my find.

 

I'm not refering to me BTW, I'm just a goofy Strike fighter pilot who wanted another mastery achievement. My Mangler(now mastered) isn't even on my ready bar anymore, just my Dustmaker until I too master it, and that ship has a really goofy build.

 

Back to topic: Scout vs 2 GS, I vote GS.

[Kuciwalker]

The "Best" build that we are all refering to is basically the stock build with only few minor tweaks and changes. The build is certainly not like the from the ground up rebuilds I have on some of my strike fighters. Really you guys should encourage those who venture into the unknown who knows what they my find.

 

We don't need to, because that area isn't "unknown" and we know precisely what they will find.