Ion Railgun change, EMP change

[Zoom_VI]

Definitely a little confused about the continuous nerfs to GSs, yet scouts BLCs haven't been adjusted at all... Nor their evasion. I'd have no issues if GS survivability was increased to compensate for our one saving grace (the ability to cripple) being nerfed. I always thought 6 seconds was too long, but I thought the eventual nerf would decrease the time to 3 seconds, not give a 55% regen rate still (booster overcharge can kind of mitigate this already). SF's could've used something to compensate

 

Probably something to do with the fact that they don't need to nerf BLC scouts because every time they go to add anything into GSF its always some new control/CC weapon (see: EMP missile/pulse, bombers, and the upcoming interdiction missile) Such control weapons are the bane of scouts since our survivability is directly linked to our maneuverability.

 

 

Also evasion really? You realize any nerf to evasion builds will hit your own prototypical gunship too?

[SammyGStatus]

Probably something to do with the fact that they don't need to nerf BLC scouts because every time they go to add anything into GSF its always some new control/CC weapon (see: EMP missile/pulse, bombers, and the upcoming interdiction missile) Such control weapons are the bane of scouts since our survivability is directly linked to our maneuverability.

 

 

Also evasion really? You realize any nerf to evasion builds will hit your own prototypical gunship too?

 

Manueverability makes senses for a scout. Having the ability to take down a GS or a bomber in under 3 seconds doesn't. That should be a job for strikes, but alas it's not.

 

I do understand that evasion loss would hurt my class. I still think that putting a cursor over something as a sniper shouldn't miss. This wouldn't be as much of a problem with this though if the buffs / debuffs always appeared when they should. I hate shooting at something 5 times and missing when I'm clicking dead in the center.

 

The fact that scouts are so manueverable + can close distance EXTREMELY quick + are so lethal up close makes them the goto. If I ion a scout, even full charge, assuming I even hit, doesn't do much to stop it from still being able to close the gap and zerg me. I have a decently geared ff on multiple toons... I know that they're the OP build ATM (well, bombers in domination, but that's fine b/c the emp field buff)

Edited May 2, 2014 by SammyGStatus

[Kuciwalker]

Probably something to do with the fact that they don't need to nerf BLC scouts because every time they go to add anything into GSF its always some new control/CC weapon (see: EMP missile/pulse, bombers, and the upcoming interdiction missile) Such control weapons are the bane of scouts since our survivability is directly linked to our maneuverability.

 

Why are you wrong so often? CC weapons are far more dangerous to non-scouts because non-scouts have fewer options to evade the CC.

[tunewalker]

Why are you wrong so often? CC weapons are far more dangerous to non-scouts because non-scouts have fewer options to evade the CC.

 

Ya pretty much this, first thought I had when I read a scout complaining about a interdiction missile was..... Thats on a gunship, fly out of its arc you break the missile, use your engine maneuver you break the missile, use your distortion feild you break the missile, if you are a T1 scout use EMP field break the missile and disable his engines and increase you ability to dodge him. Your a scout you have 2-3 get out of jail free's. Its the Strikes and the bombers that have 1.

 

The missile last i heard had a 12 second reload time, Retro's alone could probably dodge it near indeffinately with a 2 second lock time, and still have the maneuverability, speed and distortion up to handle any other missile some one might want to use.

[Verain]

I think it talents down to 8.

 

And I think this matters a lot. I think the longer reload time of the torps, ion, and emp, is a big part of why they aren't considered generally strong (the torps make up for it being being devastating when they do land). But ion and emp seem modeled after concussions, so it is strange to not be able to chain them like you can concussions.

 

Meanwhile, while you can easily lock and fire a cluster missile, you can also easily evade it- but that evasion leaves you very open. The 8 second interdiction missile is very likely relying on that for balance. Well, that and the fact that a gunship is a pretty poor dogfighter baseline- I think we agree that interdiction missile would be a lot harder to deal with on a flashfire. But either way, one reason clusters can't be turned off is their super short reload- give them an 8 second reload and you'd probably not see them be a very good missile at all.

 

 

The T3 Gunship is looking like he could be overpowered, but I really don't feel the existing gunships perform well in melee. Burst Laser Cannon doesn't let the Quarrel ownyface Flashfires, so I don't see why a thruster component would suddenly turn this game around.

[Fractalsponge]

I think some of the T3 gunship discussion is missing the point a bit. This ship isn't going OP like a Stingfire suddenly sprouting a railgun. I bet I can out-damage and probably out-kill the new T3 with my Mangler. The reason why this ship is so attractive is how relatively immobile gunships have become since 2.7, and how vulnerable that makes them to being hard-countered by an equivalently skilled pilot in a Stingfire.

 

Most pilots that don't have a deathwish are not going to be flinging this ship around like a dogfighter at every opportunity. In most cases, the optimal way to use it is going to be standing off with slug railgun as usual. What thrusters bring to the equation is that the T3 can exploit powerups and reposition after being chased or to help nodes much better. Right now I'm thinking regen thrusters for this ship, rather than turning thrusters, though I might adjust that with hands-on experience.

 

If the T3 gets chased, it no longer has to rely so much on peels to survive. Right now, if an ace comes at me in a Stingfire, my chances on my own of escaping or beating him is less than even. I think if I had clusters and either the mobility that extra regen gets me or 10% extra turning, my odds of forcing him to break off, killing him, or getting clear goes up dramatically.

 

The wild-card to T3 balance is interdiction. For at least 75% of the scout pilots that I see come after me, an interdiction missile hit means he's dead, unless he has enough friends to stop me bursting him down in short order. If it's too easy to land that hit, then this gunship is going to be overtuned. If not, it's just going to be another gunship, just one with a decent shot at getting out of a close-range fight that was forced on it by the relative scout mobility buff of the 2.7 meta.

 

I'd still trade the T3 away for even a 15s barrel roll cd.

[Verain]

People also forget that without an armor component, the average health of this T3 goes way down. Distortion and companion give you 14% evasion on this ship- that's crap compared to what a Quarrel offers (23%). The Quarrel during the actual button press is about 25% more defensive.

 

I think that the ship could go live as OP or UP and we wouldn't know. The devs mostly have their internal metrics- it requires heavy player interaction to actually test on the PTR, and so we are mostly stuck with QA or whatever tests their stuff. Those guys definitely play a bit different than on the live servers.

[Zoom_VI]

I do understand that evasion loss would hurt my class. I still think that putting a cursor over something as a sniper shouldn't miss. This wouldn't be as much of a problem with this though if the buffs / debuffs always appeared when they should. I hate shooting at something 5 times and missing when I'm clicking dead in the center.

 

And how is placing your railgun's cursor over someone any more important than aiming the cursor for every other primary weapon? The only real difference between the two is that regular primary weapons are fired while moving at closer ranges.

 

Your literally asking for railguns to get immunity to the only defensive mechanic that is effective against them (bombers are the only craft with enough shields and hull for those mechanics to be potent) that's like asking for a missile to get immunity to missile breaks. and on top of that your only reason for this is because it doesn't feel right...

 

Why are you wrong so often? CC weapons are far more dangerous to non-scouts because non-scouts have fewer options to evade the CC.

You mean exactly one fewer option? The only thing scouts get over others is the ability to take booster recharge. Also strikes the primary competition in functionality to scouts, have the option of just popping power to shields and weathering the CC, whereas scouts cannot afford taking any hits. Another caveat is that the prototypical t2 scout requires extreme close range to be effective, if I'm slowed I cannot achieve that, strikes and such all have much longer ranges so even if slowed/controlled they can still put up some offensive power.

[Kuciwalker]

Your literally asking for railguns to get immunity to the only defensive mechanic that is effective against them (bombers are the only craft with enough shields and hull for those mechanics to be potent) that's like asking for a missile to get immunity to missile breaks.

 

False. Strikes are highly durable as well, and are typically built in ways that amplify that. The only people who are actually terrified of slug railgun are max-evasion scouts - and they deserve to be, since they've taken the most fragile class and invested 100% of its defensive assets into a dodge-based defense. If your ship is on the absolute extreme dodge end of the defensive efficient frontier, you had better seriously regret it in the event that you fail to dodge.

[Kuciwalker]

You mean exactly one fewer option? The only thing scouts get over others is the ability to take booster recharge.

 

If your only defense against missiles is a lock break you're a bad player and I don't care about your opinion on game mechanics.

 

Scouts are far faster and more maneuverable than strikes. They have a much easier time simply getting outside of the lock area.

[Zoom_VI]

If your only defense against missiles is a lock break you're a bad player and I don't care about your opinion on game mechanics.

 

And your putting words in my mouth. I said making railguns ignore evasion would be like making missiles immune to lock breaks.

 

Now evasion is not the only defense against railguns and missile breaks are not the only defense against missiles. But both of those are the most effective in their respective situations.

 

A missile immune to being broken could be defended against, but it would be insanely more potent than before. Same with evasion immune railguns.

 

Also you are really starting to sound like Tsuk.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[Zoom_VI]

False. Strikes are highly durable as well, and are typically built in ways that amplify that. The only people who are actually terrified of slug railgun are max-evasion scouts - and they deserve to be, since they've taken the most fragile class and invested 100% of its defensive assets into a dodge-based defense. If your ship is on the absolute extreme dodge end of the defensive efficient frontier, you had better seriously regret it in the event that you fail to dodge.

 

If max evasion wasn't the only thing worth doing on a scout that argument might be valid. As for strikes, sure they can stack tons of shields like most do, but any railgun hit guarantees a sizable chunk of hull damage. And strikes while possessing a strong HP, don't have so much HP as to be able to strug off hull damage.

[Kuciwalker]

And your putting words in my mouth. I said making railguns ignore evasion would be like making missiles immune to lock breaks.

 

Now evasion is not the only defense against railguns and missile breaks are not the only defense against missiles. But both of those are the most effective in their respective situations.

 

You are misstating Lego's position. Railguns shouldn't have a special immunity to evasion; evasion (as a mechanical statistic) shouldn't exist.

 

My response to Lego's position is that evasion does exist, this fact is unfortunate, but it isn't going away so we ought to just propose designs that reflect its existence.

[Ramalina]

And how is placing your railgun's cursor over someone any more important than aiming the cursor for every other primary weapon? The only real difference between the two is that regular primary weapons are fired while moving at closer ranges.

 

Your literally asking for railguns to get immunity to the only defensive mechanic that is effective against them (bombers are the only craft with enough shields and hull for those mechanics to be potent) that's like asking for a missile to get immunity to missile breaks. and on top of that your only reason for this is because it doesn't feel right...

 

 

You mean exactly one fewer option? The only thing scouts get over others is the ability to take booster recharge. Also strikes the primary competition in functionality to scouts, have the option of just popping power to shields and weathering the CC, whereas scouts cannot afford taking any hits. Another caveat is that the prototypical t2 scout requires extreme close range to be effective, if I'm slowed I cannot achieve that, strikes and such all have much longer ranges so even if slowed/controlled they can still put up some offensive power.

 

If I read it right what he was complaining about was actually UI glitchiness. In that a smart GS pilot looks at target buffs and if an evasion cooldown is active either uses an accuracy cooldown or waits it out before trying to shoot. The problem is that sometimes the presence/absence of the icon does not reflect the true state of presence/absence of the evasion buff.

 

No strike I've flown can survive the damage that follows a CC by popping a shield cooldown. In theory charged plating might work, provided you can convince the opposing team to never use BLCs, Rocket pods, Slug railguns, or Thermite torpedoes on you.

 

Also I think there's some conflation of defenses, missiles, and CC going on here, probably because defending against a missile that CCs came up.

 

Scouts have excellent anti-missile defenses, and really should never get hit by anything other than the occasional cluster missile if they fly well. Of course, gunships do almost as well at this.

 

With evasion stacking scouts have on demand ability to almost ignore direct fire weapons. Gunships have sort of a partial ignore.

 

After getting hit with a CC effect, scouts have the option to use booster recharge if they experienced a strong engine drain, but don't really get anything against shield/system/engine disables or snare effects.

 

It not a single source direct CC counter, but the toolsets of typical scout builds are the best ones available for dealing with an environment with a lot of CC, followed at a modest distance by the popular GS build, followed at a pretty large distance by everything else.

[Kuciwalker]

If max evasion wasn't the only thing worth doing on a scout that argument might be valid.

 

Exactly the opposite! The fact that max evasion is a clearly dominant defensive option for scouts suggests that more than anything else it needs to make the pilot feel regret when it fails. Things that make quick-charge shield weaker wouldn't be appropriate because it's already a weaker option.

 

An evasion scout has a base 33% chance of simply not taking any damage at all from a shot (and for railguns that will typically be much higher, around 50% or more). Dodge-based defense is by definition a high-variance play. It has a large chance of a really huge upside relative to other defenses. That means it needs a corresponding huge downside - viz., if you actually get hit you are really sad.

 

If you actually tried building your scout to use a more balanced mitigation strategy (+hull and +shields) you would find that successful slug hit to be a fair bit less scary.

 

I will also note that ANY (optimized) scout build, even the max evasion one, can survive two full-charge slug shots just by orienting so that the undamaged shield arc is facing the gunship.

 

As for strikes, sure they can stack tons of shields like most do, but any railgun hit guarantees a sizable chunk of hull damage. And strikes while possessing a strong HP, don't have so much HP as to be able to strug off hull damage.

 

A full-charge slug does 28-33% of a strike fighter's hull damage in shield piercing (33% if they aren't running +hull). That isn't something you can "shrug off", no, but you shouldn't be able to "shrug off" a full-charged railgun shot any more than you can a concussion missile. It will be noticeable and annoying, but it won't be terrifying or crippling.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[tunewalker]

Exactly the opposite! The fact that max evasion is a clearly dominant defensive option for scouts suggests that more than anything else it needs to make the pilot feel regret when it fails. Things that make quick-charge shield weaker wouldn't be appropriate because it's already a weaker option.

 

An evasion scout has a base 33% chance of simply not taking any damage at all from a shot (and for railguns that will typically be much higher, around 50% or more). Dodge-based defense is by definition a high-variance play. It has a large chance of a really huge upside relative to other defenses. That means it needs a corresponding huge downside - viz., if you actually get hit you are really sad.

 

If you actually tried building your scout to use a more balanced mitigation strategy (+hull and +shields) you would find that successful slug hit to be a fair bit less scary.

 

I will also note that ANY (optimized) scout build, even the max evasion one, can survive two full-charge slug shots just by orienting so that the undamaged shield arc is facing the gunship.

 

 

 

A full-charge slug does 28-33% of a strike fighter's hull damage in shield piercing (33% if they aren't running +hull). That isn't something you can "shrug off", no, but you shouldn't be able to "shrug off" a full-charged railgun shot any more than you can a concussion missile. It will be noticeable and annoying, but it won't be terrifying or crippling.

 

Slug of course you realize is much more crippling then a concussion right.

[Kuciwalker]

Slug of course you realize is much more crippling then a concussion right.

 

1. Not really, given that concussion has substantial debuffs attached.
   
2. Railguns are supposed to be more powerful than missiles, for a bunch of really obvious reasons such as the fact that you can use missiles at the same time as lasers and while moving.
   
3. Against any ship but a scout, slug just plain isn't "crippling". It is a solid but tolerable chunk of damage.
   

Edited May 2, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[Armonddd]

If you actually tried building your scout to use a more balanced mitigation strategy (+hull and +shields) you would find that successful slug hit to be a fair bit less scary.

 

Not really. I run large reactor and lightweight armor, and the shield damage is still scary (1152 vs my 1430 shields means my shields are gone with a couple laser hits). The hull damage (448 vs 950) is just under a two-shot (47%), and is definitely a two-shot with bypass (changes to 976 shield, 624 hull). Conversely, with reinforced armor, I have 1140 hull -- meaning a single charged slug takes out 39% of my shields, or 55% with bypass.

 

In short, I go from a three shot to a three shot without bypass, and from a two shot to a two shot with bypass. In both cases, my shields are so far gone that it's very easy for anyone else to finish me off. Because of how hard it is to heal hull damage, I'm liable to be picked off after surviving a close dogfight, getting tagged by an aimbot drone, or taking other incidental hull damage.

 

And before you say "fly better", I've been tagged at 15 km by fully charged railgun shots by a gunship who was protected by dampening until I got to 15 km. And, since other weapons have significantly shorter range, trigger a blaring lock-on warning, and/or actually respect shields, there is honestly less you can do about a railgun shot than nearly anything else in the game.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Armonddd

[SammyGStatus]

Not really. I run large reactor and lightweight armor, and the shield damage is still scary (1152 vs my 1430 shields means my shields are gone with a couple laser hits). The hull damage (448 vs 950) is just under a two-shot (47%), and is definitely a two-shot with bypass (changes to 976 shield, 624 hull). Conversely, with reinforced armor, I have 1140 hull -- meaning a single charged slug takes out 39% of my shields, or 55% with bypass.

 

In short, I go from a three shot to a three shot without bypass, and from a two shot to a two shot with bypass. In both cases, my shields are so far gone that it's very easy for anyone else to finish me off. Because of how hard it is to heal hull damage, I'm liable to be picked off after surviving a close dogfight, getting tagged by an aimbot drone, or taking other incidental hull damage.

 

And before you say "fly better", I've been tagged at 15 km by fully charged railgun shots by a gunship who was protected by dampening until I got to 15 km. And, since other weapons have significantly shorter range, trigger a blaring lock-on warning, and/or actually respect shields, there is honestly less you can do about a railgun shot than nearly anything else in the game.

 

What're those super quick lock-on missiles? There's nothing I can do against those in a GS more often than not, and they use up both my cds before I can even LOS ever since 2.7

[Kuciwalker]

Not really. I run large reactor and lightweight armor, and the shield damage is still scary (1152 vs my 1430 shields means my shields are gone with a couple laser hits).

 

Large reactor + lightweight armor is precisely the max-evasion build I've been talking about. You don't get credit for your choice of large reactor when that is the only acceptable reactor choice for any build that isn't using directional shields, and none of your other reactor choices increase your evasion anyway.

 

The +shields you can get as a tradeoff from evasion is by running directional shields (or S2E on a Type 1).

 

The hull damage (448 vs 950) is just under a two-shot (47%), and is definitely a two-shot with bypass (changes to 976 shield, 624 hull).

 

Bypass is irrelevant because good gunships don't run bypass, and it has a minute cooldown anyway. Good gunships run Wingman.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[Armonddd]

1.Not really, given that concussion has substantial debuffs attached.

 

And, to compensate, there's a blaring tone in the other guy's ear for the entirety of the time you need to maintain LoS.

 

2.Railguns are supposed to be more powerful than missiles, for a bunch of really obvious reasons such as the fact that you can use missiles at the same time as lasers and while moving.

 

I agree that railguns need to be more powerful than missiles if they're going to be viable, but they have several advantages that missiles don't (range, LoS, burst capability, in most cases more shield piercing, versatility of firing before full charge, etc).

 

3. Against any ship but a scout, slug just plain isn't "crippling". It is a solid but tolerable chunk of damage.

 

448 hull damage is scary to anyone, even strikes with reinforced. That's over a quarter of your hull gone in one shot, plus over half of your shields (in most cases given the current meta). Losing hull integrity is scary, period. It has a dramatic influence on your safety and tactics no matter what you're flying.

[Armonddd]

Bypass is irrelevant because good gunships don't run bypass, and it has a minute cooldown anyway. Good gunships run Wingman.

 

"I don't like it, therefore I won't address it."

 

The fact remains that reinforced armor does not significantly help manage fully charged slug shots.

 

What're those super quick lock-on missiles? There's nothing I can do against those in a GS more often than not, and they use up both my cds before I can even LOS ever since 2.7

 

I'm sorry, I thought we were addressing how much damage slug does to scouts, not how you feel about clusters.

[Kuciwalker]

448 hull damage is scary to anyone, even strikes with reinforced. That's over a quarter of your hull gone in one shot, plus over half of your shields (in most cases given the current meta). Losing hull integrity is scary, period. It has a dramatic influence on your safety and tactics no matter what you're flying.

 

You're playing semantic games with scary/terrifying/crippling/etc. No **** a strike fighter doesn't want to get hit by a fully charged slug. No one should be happy to be hit by a fully-charged railgun shot. That's the entire design behind railguns! That's the fundamental idea behind a weapon that requires multiple seconds to charge!

 

The difference is that a strike fighter that gets hit by one fully charged slug hasn't just lost the game, or even close. It has faced a setback, but has a solid three second before it can face a similar setback, which is a lot of reaction time. And even if it doesn't proactively work at evading the next shot, slug hits are by no means guaranteed! The tracking penalties on railguns, combined with their base accuracy, combined with the fact that a lot of important fighting happens around incidental LOS, means that each shot has a decent baseline chance of just doing nothing at all. (Yes, with skill you can mitigate this chance. That's good! Skill should do something!) And in fact even a strike that responds stupidly to a slug hit, by flying directly at the offending gunship, will usually manage to close with the gunship before the gunship gets off the three shots necessary to kill it.

 

(Upgraded) strikes take a lot of a gunship's resources to kill, even when flown poorly. They are on the whole still easier to skill than scouts mostly because A) I think better pilots tend to gravitate to scouts and B) evasion scouts just have extremely high chance of taking 0 damage at all.

[Kuciwalker]

"I don't like it, therefore I won't address it."

 

If your complaint is just that bypass exists then I am perfectly fine with it being nerfed again or something. I do not care about bypass, I don't think it is an important part of the game one way or another, and I don't think corner cases that don't actually show up in high-level play aren't relevant to game balance.

 

The fact remains that reinforced armor does not significantly help manage fully charged slug shots.

 

Yes, it does, I showed the math earlier in the thread.

[SammyGStatus]

I'm sorry, I thought we were addressing how much damage slug does to scouts, not how you feel about clusters.

 

"And, since other weapons have significantly shorter range, trigger a blaring lock-on warning, and/or actually respect shields, there is honestly less you can do about a railgun shot than nearly anything else in the game."

 

Don't be rude when I'm refuting something YOU stated. You opened that door. Sorry YOU have to be condescending when I was asking for the name of something that I can do less maneuvers to avoid than a slug (such as LOS, moving quickly, flying behind someone / rapidly changing directions, or being aware of where the GS is and when that giant colored aura around him appears).

Edited May 2, 2014 by SammyGStatus