Comparing Swtor to other MMOs: Community fracture

[DarthAgonny]

I dont think its just me here. When someone makes a comparison between swtor and other mmos (no matter how fair this one is), either gen chat or general discussion, there's always a group of people that will try to discredit the OP argument simply saying "go play that other mmo".

 

Comparisons are good cause they open a number of possible improvements for a game.

 

Been a Vanilla player i can trully say, had swtor never received critics and become subject of many comparisons with other mmos, we wouldnt have the game systems we currently have/will have (arenas/player housing/spacepvp/dye system) or the tools this game implemented (LFG is the one i remember).

 

It seems that whenever someone asks in the forums or comment on general chat about some things that should change or that this game lacks compared to other mmos, theres a bunch of players that will attack, not with arguments, but with comments such as, we don't need to be that <insert other mmo name> Game, or "invite" him to play that other mmo.

 

It's really sad to see this happen almost everytime i log and go to the fleet, only to log out and check that the forums/reddit just ran of suggestions as well (even more when the devs intentionally created the suggestion sub forum and began moving every single post that was on general discussion in order to reduce the number of critics/suggestion supporters)

 

It seems that those that wanted "the game as it is" -instead of those that want the best mmo ever- finally won.

[jessemacca]

I do agree. comparisons can be useful, and they have helped the game develop massively!

 

However, personally, and I think some will agree, I don't want SWTOR to be just another MMO with the same features as the rest, but something different and exciting.

 

I do agree with you about some of the community though, but you get people like that in all MMO's best thing to do is just ignore and move on enjoying the game

[RandomXChance]

I think what generally gets the community all aggravated is the wish for some players for this to be Star Wars Galaxies 2. Because it is the same IP and many players came here since that was shut down you get an unusual combination. Other MMO's make a follow up that follows the same overall game play as the predecessor.

 

In this case, the predecessor was very much a sandbox oriented game. This was built from day one as a themepark MMO. This has created an ongoing conflict between the two views that is not easily programmed over.

[AnthonyDraft]

Here is a comment from a reddit user(werbear) in Smite subreddit that I think is relevant to this thread.

 

"Wrong way to give suggestions: "Smite should be more like this game, and therefore we need this feature."

 

Better way to give suggestions: "This feature is quite usefull - it also works in this game, so it might work in Smite."

 

Giving other games as examples is not wrong by any means - but taking another game as the goal that Smite should strife to achieve is plain stupid."

[Kalfear]

Comparisons are not only useful but healthy for MMOs.

 

Truth is there is very little, short of technological advancements, new that can be done in MMOs right now.

 

Someone, somewhere has tried an alternate concept or idea.

 

The Danger zones arise when people think back at a different MMO like it was all roses and the perfect game.

 

UO/SWG players are terrible for doing this exact thing.

So after a while I think people get short with them because what their claiming is not in line with the factual reality of the statements made.

 

WOW players who played WOW as their first ever MMO also short sighted and pigeon holed by their limited experiences.

 

I know an awful lot of people who simply dismiss WOW players ideas because of their lack of experience and knowledge in the genre. Maybe thats not the right thing to do but anyone with any knoweldge of the genre knows WOW brought nothing new to the table. They just rehashed and dumbed down what was already present in the genre for years before.

 

But honestly thats no different then any topic.

Be it film, literature, gaming, politics, what ever.

 

You base your opinion on what you know. The more limited your scope of understanding is, the more rigid a person tends to be on the topic as a whole.

 

But I'll qualify that with one statement

Quite often you hear someone told to go play so and so game because they are speaking about said game as the perfect game, while they play SW:TOR.

 

I know for myself, when I got tired of TOR and truly felt there was better options out there.

I went and played those better options.

 

I think (for example ESO fans currently) that spam general chat about how great ESO is, are trolling, simple as that.

If they truly thought ESO was all that, they wouldn't waste another minute in SW:TOR. They would be in ESO building those characters. And this tends to be the problem with the next "big thing"

 

When it was (Gezzz forget game name now) , that was going to destroy TOR and show them how to do it

Those people were trolling for attention cause they didn't move to that game when it launch (well they were not gone more then a month)

 

So you have to be carefull between what is comparison and what is blind devotion ignoring the truth.

 

Truth is, while for long time MMO fans the concept of the almost perfect MMO seems pretty easy and obvious.

Yet that game STILL has not been made

You see games have a bit here, bit there, bit over there

And you always hear those bits are the best parts yet again

Yet no developer has put them all together yet

 

I know I been waiting 20+ years for someone to take all the successes of the genre over the past 2 plus decades and simple mesh them all together in to the Ultimate MMORPG.

 

And I think Ill be waiting another 20 years year to be honest because for what ever weird and strange reason. Developers refuse to put it all together. Maybe its ego, maybe its they dont understand the genre, couldn't tell you.

 

All I know is when someone finally does do it.

It will eliminate the argument that you need F2P rather then subscription base.

Because if someone finally puts it all together correctly

People will gladly pay the monthly sub because they will feel they get quality for their dollars.

 

But until then, its always going to be

 

This game does this right

That game does that right

This other game does this other thing right

And so on and so on and so on.

[slafko]

Here is a comment from a reddit user(werbear) in Smite subreddit that I think is relevant to this thread.

 

"Wrong way to give suggestions: "Smite should be more like this game, and therefore we need this feature."

 

Better way to give suggestions: "This feature is quite usefull - it also works in this game, so it might work in Smite."

 

Giving other games as examples is not wrong by any means - but taking another game as the goal that Smite should strife to achieve is plain stupid."

No matter how you word your suggestions, you're still going to get trolled.

[PLynkes]

I tend to zone out when I see the three letters S.W.G. in the first sentence or so of a thread. Because the thread is going nowhere good, and what the post almost always amounts to is a long-winded way of saying "I wish this game was SWG."

 

Now that's a valid point of view, but that dead horse has been well and truly flogged, and it really has become rather tiresome.

[Rafaman]

OP, I had to chuckle at your post. Now, now, don't get all defrosted and hear me out before you start in on me. I will be as brief as possible.

 

First, gen chat... yeah, you shouldn't even include it in this discussion. If you are looking for a reasonable discussion about anything in gen chat, you are looking in the wrong place. Trolls are chomping at the bit, not matter what you say.

 

Now, on to the forums. I am jaded which is why I laugh. There have been times when in these very forums the exact opposite of you claim was true. When anything positive, or any praise was met with derision and hate. It was popular to hate the game early on and it continued for sometime by those that no longer played but loved to come stir things up. In fact, it still continues. There are trolls here that get banned and return using new accounts just to stir things up because they have an irrational hate for the game. One or two have accounts numbering in the double digits. How or why they do it, I will leave for another time.

 

And there are others who have been conditioned by such activities to attack negative posts card blanche. Quite simply, they won't give you the benefit of the doubt because in the past ia reasonable discussion was not what the OP was after. They are trolls themselves and ironically they like to take the bait.

 

And yet there are still others that welcome criticism and praise both. They can have reasonable discussions when there is something reasonable to discuss. They aren't few and far between as many would have you believe, but they get drowned out by the afore mentioned trolls.

 

So... the best thing to do is post whatever it is you are going to post. Separate the wheat from the chaff on your own and only engage those that want to truly discuss things or argue reasonably by counter point. That's it. Haters will hijack your thread to continue their shenanigans, white knights will derail your thread to continue theirs. Don't get caught up in that and you will actually find good feedback for and against your arguments.

 

Last... this process is not unique to these forums by any means. It applies to all MMO forums. By definition, because it is the internet, it is all fractured.

[Styxx]

I have a suggestion - let`s make this game into Battlefield Heroes, which is another MMO. That game doesn`t have pay 2 win, it only makes free players and players in general to have access to top equipment ONLY with cold cash.

 

On second thought, I want this game to be like Lineage - max level in 6 months playing 10 hours a day and recipes with 60% success chance or lose all the mats, which some took months of farming.

 

On third thought, let`s sell money directly, like GTA 5 does, at absolutely funny prices, too.

 

I could have more ideas, but then it will turn into a too great of an MMO and then I`ll feel bad about my excellent ideas used without being paid a penny.

_____________________________

 

And just remember, be constructive and don`t troll me for having such great ideas.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Styxx

[ninjonxb]

Regardless of the reason for this being... SWTOR is a joke in the gaming community.

I am not saying this because it is a bad game but it is perceived this way.

 

Most people outside of those of us who play it see it as a game that launched after being reportedly the most expensive game ever made. And quickly failing and needing to go F2P.

 

Unfortunately this has made many players extremely touchy on the subject and get very defensive quickly.

 

But this is also not exactly unique to this game either. Go hop in WoW or any other MMO and start talking about how any other MMO is better at a particular thing and they will be attacked as well.

[Manweth]

Don't be melodramatic.

 

Accept MMO market as it is:

 

A non-creative wasteland where dreams die and doe-eyed devs become codeline-spamming drones.

 

It will never get better.

 

 

NOT IN A THOUSAND YEARS IT WILL BE BETTER!!!

 

DESPAIR MORTALS!

[Drockter]

Comparative analysis is always a good thing.

 

Look at what people like about XYZ MMO, and see if a similar mechanic can be put into your game. Not a direct copy, of course, but a similar mechanic. What works well for one, can work well for you. In my RL industry, we look at this as "Best Practice", and "Best of Breed".

 

On the flip side, we also pay close attention to what customers of our competitors really dislike about their product... to a) see if we can improve upon the service, or b) make sure we do not make a similar mistake.

 

I do not see how this can be a bad thing in the MMO world.

 

Admittedly, I do not have a wealth of knowledge of a lot of MMO's out there. However, there are things that I have experienced, that I would LOVE to see implemented (in some fashion) here. That being said, this has become my primary game because of how many things/mechanics I like here.

[Lord_Thorne]

see the fine-print sig below...

[TUXs]

I dont think its just me here. When someone makes a comparison between swtor and other mmos (no matter how fair this one is), either gen chat or general discussion, there's always a group of people that will try to discredit the OP argument simply saying "go play that other mmo".

 

Comparisons are good cause they open a number of possible improvements for a game.

 

Been a Vanilla player i can trully say, had swtor never received critics and become subject of many comparisons with other mmos, we wouldnt have the game systems we currently have/will have (arenas/player housing/spacepvp/dye system) or the tools this game implemented (LFG is the one i remember).

 

It seems that whenever someone asks in the forums or comment on general chat about some things that should change or that this game lacks compared to other mmos, theres a bunch of players that will attack, not with arguments, but with comments such as, we don't need to be that <insert other mmo name> Game, or "invite" him to play that other mmo.

 

It's really sad to see this happen almost everytime i log and go to the fleet, only to log out and check that the forums/reddit just ran of suggestions as well (even more when the devs intentionally created the suggestion sub forum and began moving every single post that was on general discussion in order to reduce the number of critics/suggestion supporters)

 

It seems that those that wanted "the game as it is" -instead of those that want the best mmo ever- finally won.

Great post! I agree 100%...but I also think you're hitting on another issue...

 

I believe the Devs will be 100x's more likely to read the threads telling them how awesome they are and will likely avoid any thread critical of anything they've done...to them, it's personal and I think it's a fairly natural reaction.

[GalacticKegger]

Forums are intended to be community information centers that invariably become faceless wimp havens. The growing number of people with a morbid need to abuse the physical untouchability that online communities provide is merely this generation's increasingly narcissistic culture in microcosm imho. I blame poor parenting in combination with technological advancements that allow derelicts to feel free of consequence.

 

Someone texting behind the wheel of a moving vehicle getting pissed off at drivers who have the audacity to interrupt their texting by honking at them is a real world manifestation of derelict stupidity. This self-indulgent generation, which is rapidly devolving into chat bubbled cliques who publicly brandish an impressive collection of hot-keyed "talk to the hand" emotes without even realizing they are doing it, will be our next generation of leaders.

 

Houston ... we have a problem.

 

The SWTOR community was merely a next step in this evolution. MMO communities that succeed it (F2Ps in particular) will be progressively worse. Sometimes I wish the grid would just disintegrate, forcing people out of their fragile little shells and back into face-to-face reality.

Edited April 28, 2014 by GalacticKegger

[Aerilas]

Comparisons are not only useful but healthy for MMOs.

 

Truth is there is very little, short of technological advancements, new that can be done in MMOs right now.

 

Someone, somewhere has tried an alternate concept or idea.

 

The Danger zones arise when people think back at a different MMO like it was all roses and the perfect game.

 

UO/SWG players are terrible for doing this exact thing.

So after a while I think people get short with them because what their claiming is not in line with the factual reality of the statements made.

 

WOW players who played WOW as their first ever MMO also short sighted and pigeon holed by their limited experiences.

 

I know an awful lot of people who simply dismiss WOW players ideas because of their lack of experience and knowledge in the genre. Maybe thats not the right thing to do but anyone with any knoweldge of the genre knows WOW brought nothing new to the table. They just rehashed and dumbed down what was already present in the genre for years before.

 

But honestly thats no different then any topic.

Be it film, literature, gaming, politics, what ever.

 

You base your opinion on what you know. The more limited your scope of understanding is, the more rigid a person tends to be on the topic as a whole.

 

But I'll qualify that with one statement

Quite often you hear someone told to go play so and so game because they are speaking about said game as the perfect game, while they play SW:TOR.

 

I know for myself, when I got tired of TOR and truly felt there was better options out there.

I went and played those better options.

 

I think (for example ESO fans currently) that spam general chat about how great ESO is, are trolling, simple as that.

If they truly thought ESO was all that, they wouldn't waste another minute in SW:TOR. They would be in ESO building those characters. And this tends to be the problem with the next "big thing"

 

When it was (Gezzz forget game name now) , that was going to destroy TOR and show them how to do it

Those people were trolling for attention cause they didn't move to that game when it launch (well they were not gone more then a month)

 

So you have to be carefull between what is comparison and what is blind devotion ignoring the truth.

 

Truth is, while for long time MMO fans the concept of the almost perfect MMO seems pretty easy and obvious.

Yet that game STILL has not been made

You see games have a bit here, bit there, bit over there

And you always hear those bits are the best parts yet again

Yet no developer has put them all together yet

 

I know I been waiting 20+ years for someone to take all the successes of the genre over the past 2 plus decades and simple mesh them all together in to the Ultimate MMORPG.

 

And I think Ill be waiting another 20 years year to be honest because for what ever weird and strange reason. Developers refuse to put it all together. Maybe its ego, maybe its they dont understand the genre, couldn't tell you.

 

All I know is when someone finally does do it.

It will eliminate the argument that you need F2P rather then subscription base.

Because if someone finally puts it all together correctly

People will gladly pay the monthly sub because they will feel they get quality for their dollars.

 

But until then, its always going to be

 

This game does this right

That game does that right

This other game does this other thing right

And so on and so on and so on.

 

Your post looks like a poem ^^.

[Infernixx]

Great post! I agree 100%...but I also think you're hitting on another issue...

 

I believe the Devs will be 100x's more likely to read the threads telling them how awesome they are and will likely avoid any thread critical of anything they've done...to them, it's personal and I think it's a fairly natural reaction.

 

Bias projection and speculation.

 

You have no way of knowing what's going on in someone else's head and your biases are well documented when it comes to a number of subjects in this game.

[TUXs]

Bias projection and speculation.

 

You have no way of knowing what's going on in someone else's head and your biases are well documented when it comes to a number of subjects in this game.

Those are my OPINIONS, not biases. My opinions are based upon my experiences. Discount them if you like - I discount yours quicker I'm sure.

[Infernixx]

Those are my OPINIONS, not biases. My opinions are based upon my experiences. Discount them if you like - I discount yours quicker I'm sure.

 

Semantics. The only mindset you know for certain is your own and you're projecting that mindset onto others.

 

It's an interesting insight into how you think.

[TUXs]

Semantics. The only mindset you know for certain is your own and you're projecting that mindset onto others.

 

It's an interesting insight into how you think.

OMG you love your drama lol! "Projecting" and "mindset"...geezus...you make me sound like Professor freaking X...

 

Opinions, assumptions, speculation...nothing magical here Magneto.

[psandak]

Truth is, while for long time MMO fans the concept of the almost perfect MMO seems pretty easy and obvious.

Yet that game STILL has not been made

You see games have a bit here, bit there, bit over there

And you always hear those bits are the best parts yet again

Yet no developer has put them all together yet

 

I know I been waiting 20+ years for someone to take all the successes of the genre over the past 2 plus decades and simple mesh them all together in to the Ultimate MMORPG.

 

And I think Ill be waiting another 20 years year to be honest because for what ever weird and strange reason. Developers refuse to put it all together. Maybe its ego, maybe its they dont understand the genre, couldn't tell you.

 

All I know is when someone finally does do it.

It will eliminate the argument that you need F2P rather then subscription base.

Because if someone finally puts it all together correctly

People will gladly pay the monthly sub because they will feel they get quality for their dollars.

 

But until then, its always going to be

 

This game does this right

That game does that right

This other game does this other thing right

And so on and so on and so on.

Part of this is the adage: "You can please some of the people, some of the time; some of the people all of the time; but not all the people all the time"

 

Too many MMOs now try - and fail - to please everyone. If more developers focused on specific niches they might please more players within that niche rather than failing to please all market segments. But game development is a business and the best business practice is to try to attract as many customers as possible and this translates into trying to please everyone and invariably fails to happen.

 

Another (lesser known) adage comes from retail customer service: "if one customer has a good experience, you've retained one customer. But if one customer has a bad experience, you've just lost ten customers." The point is that it is human nature to gripe more than praise.

 

Transition this sentiment to an MMO and its forums and you get a vast majority of forum-goers griping about a lot of things even if it is relatively minor. These are the players who have had a "bad experience" and are therefore spreading the word. Meanwhile tens if not hundreds of thousands of players play the game because they enjoy it - they are having a good experience - and never think to praise the game for its virtues.

 

My overall point is for those who come to forums do not wholly judge the game by what others say here.

Edited April 28, 2014 by psandak

[ZionHalcyon]

lol, you're no professor. Sorry if I gave that impression.

 

You really enjoy trolling, don't you?

[Kalfear]

Part of this is the adage: "You can please some of the people, some of the time; some of the people all of the time; but not all the people all the time"

 

Too many MMOs now try - and fail - to please everyone. If more developers focused on specific niches they might please more players within that niche rather than failing to please all market segments. But game development is a business and the best business practice is to try to attract as many customers as possible and this translates into trying to please everyone and invariably fails to happen.

 

 

See I dont really agree with what you said there because to many MMOs that have been accused of trying to be all things to all players would look drastically different if they truly were pandering to be all inclusive.

 

Lets look at SW:TOR and how it would be different (just off top of my head here, no personal bias here, just topic off top of head proven to work in previous MMOs) if it truly was trying to be all things to all people.

 

1) You wouldnt have any Warzones. Warzones over time of this genre have proven to be the far distant 10th choice of the PVP crowd. The most popular and most respected version of PVP has always been RVR (excluding those with no clue that scream zerg zerg zerg as some sorta fit all complaint regarding RVR)

 

2) There would be a OFFICAL RP server with naming rules enforced for the RPers

 

3) There would be a year huge pay for expansion that brought out larger then Makeb amount of content

 

4) There would be monthly smaller content upgrades (not charged to subscribers)

 

5) Would have 24/7 365 1-800 customer service lines available to subscribers

 

6) Housing would have been in game at start

 

7) Mini games such as Pazaak and Swoop Racing would have been in at start

 

8) Appearence tabs for quick changes to different gear sets (hugely popular in other games)

 

9) Saved specs and hot bars so its a simple matter of switching from tank to DPS or Healer to DPS with a click of the button rather then being forced to redo it all every time (again hugely popular in other games)

 

That's 9 just off top of my head, If I put serious thought into it I could probably come up with 20-30 concepts that have received huge applauds for design and implication before SW:TOR even started production. That BW ignored and went with their own designs, despite history telling us what works already and what doesn't.

 

There has only been 1 game that tried to be all things to all people and that was WOW.

 

They took other peoples ideas (good call)

Dumbed it down (bad call)

and draw cartoon graphics (worse call)

 

And its only been the most successful MMORPG of all time because of it.

 

BTW: Im not asking for cookie cutter MMOs here (just so we clear)

Creativity is great and welcomed.

Loved that SW:TOR added class storylines and fully voice acted dialog.

GREAT CREATIVE ADDITION TO GENRE.

But its how they outright ignored or pushed aside areas of MMO development where the answer is already known that shows clearly they were not trying to be all things to all people.

 

And they were hurt for it.

 

And now you see 2+ years after fact they are starting to add those concepts they rejected pretty much outright.

It will not be that long until we see pazaak and swoop racing in game as well

 

Because that core game design already has a template that players want and developers should follow.

[Lium]

I think what generally gets the community all aggravated is the wish for some players for this to be Star Wars Galaxies 2. Because it is the same IP and many players came here since that was shut down you get an unusual combination. Other MMO's make a follow up that follows the same overall game play as the predecessor.

 

In this case, the predecessor was very much a sandbox oriented game. This was built from day one as a themepark MMO. This has created an ongoing conflict between the two views that is not easily programmed over.

 

I agree with this to an extent. The folks that played SWG would naturally migrate to another Star Wars MMO, but I feel like they should have known that this game was never going to be even a spiritual successor to Star Wars Galaxies. Both games were developed by different developers with different target audiences in mind.

 

SWTOR was always intended for mass consumption as a theme park game. SWG was originally intended for niche gamers despite the Star Wars IP as a sandbox game. SOE later tried to make it a theme park game with bad consequences as everyone saw.

 

Not to mention I remember reading and hearing the original SWG pre-NGE was terrible and bleeding subs, which is why they went with the upgrade to begin with. Nostalgia has a funny way of clouding reality.

 

Anyway, what the OP said is valid. However, I would invite him to play other AAA titles, such as GW2, Tera, and TSW. Those games are actually missing many of the basic quality of life elements you would expect a major MMO to have nowadays.

 

And I know because I play them all regularly. The Secret World doesn't even have a real group finder. You sign up for a dungeon and then go to Agartha and spend hours spamming the LFG channel.

[JimG]

Keep in mind, they can't just simply copy what other games do. That's illegal. Also, there needs to be a better reason for something to be changed or added to the game than "game X does it". Sorry, but that's not a good enough reason.