Bomber Madness

[-Streven-]

The amount of minelayers found in a typical domination match on Harbinger has officially reached the point of rediculous. I know it's the same for other servers as well. A few weeks ago we still had lots of good dogfighting but not now. I played a few matches last night that had 5 or more bombers. That's half the squad. And as has been point out already, the best counter to a minelayer is another minelayer so its only getting worse. Clearly things are not balanced.

 

I'm holding out hope that some good counter strategies will emerge but I'm not very optimistic. Not many people have caught on to damage reduction pike builds as a defense against mines. I think there's hope that way but so few veterans fly strikes.

 

Count me officially frustrated. Clearing one bomber off a node can be a fun challenge. Having to clear three at once is infuriating.

 

/end rant

[SammyGStatus]

I think I would have much less of an issue with mines / rail guns sentries / missile sentries if A) the accuracy would be subject to evasion (I can't peg a scout running evasion while his buffs are on, but a machine can autohit everytime?), B) Mines obeyed LOS (If the mine is on the lower left *I understand position is relative, but this is an example, so left is whichever direction you want it to be* and you're on the upper right side of the node with the satelite breaking the LOS, you shouldn't take damage), c) missile sentries to have an actually lock on time instead of an instalock (especially in post-2.7 b/c of the need to pop more missile breaks rather than actually evading them). Those are my main issues at least

[Nemarus]

Clearing one bomber off a node can be a fun challenge. Having to clear three at once is infuriating.

 

 

Yeah, that's really the key issue right now. There are several viable counters to single Minelayers. But as soon as there are more than one Minelayer, those counters break down (even if you match the Minelayer numbers 1 for 1). Then the best counter becomes an equal or greater number of Minelayers. This is primarily due to the AOE nature of mines, and that these mines in particular ignore shields.

[-Streven-]

My thoughts at the moment are:

 

- cause mines to damage friendlies

- improve emp's so they are more effective against minefields

- convince more people to fly strikes with heavy lasers and charged plating

- decrease bomber effective hitpoints

- make all bombers Rainbow colored with pink afterburners and make all mines take the shape of a Unicorn

 

Any or all of these ssuggestions would be a nice start.

[Zharik]

My thoughts at the moment are:

 

- cause mines to damage friendlies

- improve emp's so they are more effective against minefields

- convince more people to fly strikes with heavy lasers and charged plating

- decrease bomber effective hitpoints

- make all bombers Rainbow colored with pink afterburners and make all mines take the shape of a Unicorn

 

Any or all of these ssuggestions would be a nice start.

 

No friendly fire for mines... No, no, NO!

Talk about an avenue for griefing!?!

 

T

[Nemarus]

No friendly fire for mines... No, no, NO!

Talk about an avenue for griefing!?!

 

T

 

This is true. Mines should not be allowed to affect allies. However, making a Bomber vulnerable to its own mines is a different story. It would force a Bomber to lay mines and then vacate the mined area.

 

Though I'm already imagining using Charged Plating to absorb damage from my own Interdiction/Seismic Mines.

[Kalphitis]

I still think the best way to fix domination matches is to either:

 

1) Make satellites move, so that mines will eventually get out of range of the satellite -- orbiting bombers will have to be continuously laying down mines. This also means you can't just hide in the corner of a satellite to avoid attacks...you will have to be in constant motion to stay in range of said satellite.

 

2) Have objective points/satellites vary over time (King of the Hill type gameplay). That way if bombers are camping a node, it might turn off and another objective elsewhere turns on. Then the bombers have the disadvantage of being the slowest to get to the new objective, but still retain the benefit of being the best to hold it when they get there (though for a minimal amount of time).

 

Having static objective nodes that can be camped by over-powered ships is just a recipe for failure.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

- improve emp's so they are more effective against minefields

 

Agreed. If their purpose is going to be so niche they should really excel in that niche, not just be average at it.

 

- convince more people to fly strikes with heavy lasers and charged plating

 

Convince more people to play strikers period would probably help, I still get the feeling sometimes that strikers are underestimated in their potential. I don't really expect you'll convince many veteran striker pilots, much less rookies, to use charged plating until the prevalence of armor piercing on weapons is addressed.

[SpacerSebben]

Yes I think one issue is that T2/T3 Charged Plating Strikes as an answer to Bombers isn't common enough knowledge yet. Hopefully this video can circulate more.

 

 

I also want to stress that Charged Plating Bombers can really suck, but also keep in mind that EMP Field, EMP Missile and T3 Strike's new Remote Slicing at the top tier can all be made to disable shield abilities from being used.

 

However, I do think it sucks that it takes 35,500 requisition to pick up and unlock the tier necessary of EMP Field/Missile/Remote Slicing in order to counter the 5000 requisition investment one makes to pick up and upgrade Charged Plating to 20 second duration.

 

And Nemarus, it's also been on my mind as well that I feel like there should be a sense of diminishing return on how many Bombers you throw on a satellite. Like the idea that having one Bomber is good but the more Bombers you throw onto a satellite should ideally become detrimental to the overall team. Like the most extreme example being an 8 Bomber game means 8 T2/T3 Strikes could be their worst nightmare. In theory, this could work but I'm skeptical since I've yet to see it actually happen. I'd LIKE to see it happen though, hah!

[Verain]

Mostly this is an overreaction. One thing does stand out:

 

 

The EMPs are worthless for dealing with mines.

 

 

I want to pick on and emphasize this because:

 

1)- It is the stated purpose of these two moves.

2)- The devs seem to believe they actually serve this purpose, and they do NOT.

3)- Unlike many of the ludicrous suggestions ("The mines kill you and your friends and the satellites outrun bombers because this is all reasonable!"), these moves already exist, are in game, and the tweak is numbers instead of mechanics.

 

In other threads, I've suggested that the mine/drone effect of the EMP field be 6000m instead of 3000m, and that the EMP missiles be able to lock on mines and drones in like a quarter second or something.

 

 

I'll also point out that the OTHER mines actually need some large buffs. Ex: "Your seeker mines has a big radius, so it takes off and hits their shield for 900ish. Then they fly into your ion mine, which hits them for 900 shield damage. Then, since they are LOS of you and you can't dogfight because bomber, it all just heals in a few seconds.

 

Or maybe they only had 1000 shield. In that case, you did around 85 hull damage SO GOOD

 

The other mines need very large buffs. Not exactly to their damage, but to the order in which they attack, the area in which they guard, or the effects that they apply to enemy ships.

 

 

 

In the current setup, the easiest change is to just fix EMP so it at least clears the minefield out, which right now it doesn't do ever.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Verain

[Loc_n_lol]

Make mine AoE damage scale with distance from the epicenter (50% damage at the edge ?).

Make mines destroyed by weapons fire (but not by another mine), or the death of the bomber, not explode. (or only damage the killer, not his teammates)

Remove the full shield piercing from one of seismic or interdiction mines (probably interdiction).

Make the EMP debuff put affected abilities on cooldown rather than a flat duration. Make it lockout secondary weapons too ? EDIT: a more complex but better proposal maybe: make the EMP field linger around for ~30s after detonation and destroy any mines / disable any drones in the area for the duration

Edited April 24, 2014 by Loc_n_lol

[Urien]

- make all bombers Rainbow colored with pink afterburners and make all mines take the shape of a Unicorn

 

This suggestion wins the thread. I hope you're listening, BioWare.

[Loc_n_lol]

This suggestion wins the thread. I hope you're listening, BioWare.

 

Wouldn't that make even more people want to play bombers ?

[Verain]

Make mine AoE damage scale with distance from the epicenter (50% damage at the edge ?).

 

Obviously the mines would be greatly increased in damage then, right? Like, 80% more?

 

Also, mines essentially always deal damage at the edge of their explosion. If you think the listed damage for mines is only balanced around planting the mine directly up the tailpipe of an afk scout, that's obviously silly.

 

"Halve mine damage" is not a good idea.

 

 

Make mines destroyed by weapons fire (but not by another mine), or the death of the bomber, not explode. (or only damage the killer, not his teammates)

 

This would only help scouts. It isn't a bad idea though, if all mines destroyed by weapons fire just melted instead of exploding.

 

Remove the full shield piercing from one of seismic or interdiction mines (probably interdiction).

 

No. This is the entire reason bombers are viable.

 

make the EMP field linger around for ~30s after detonation and destroy any mines / disable any drones in the area for the duration

 

THIRTY SECONDS? Get real.

[Mikla]

One tweak you could make to the EMP missile is to make it into a Pulsar. Missile detonates and continues to pulse for 20 seconds, the second and subsequent pulse could occur at 5 second intervals with diminishing damage and blast radius. This effect would force ships to leave the area rather than staying put.

[-Streven-]

Most of my suggestions were meant to be exaggerations. I don't like making suggestions that go much beyond the current scope of the game. I think it's a lot more realistic to ask for modifications to current functionality mostly in the form of damage modifiers and the like rather than to ask for new functionality.

 

Having said that I can't believe nobody wants to seriously debate the merits of a rainbow and unicorn themed bomber?! /incredulous. (EDIT: I see there are some true believers out there. /points up)

 

The only suggestion I've heard so far that makes much sense to my way of thinking are Verain's emp suggestions. I do believe the devs should do something to increase emp effectiveness against bombers. I don't know any bomber that fears an emp burst. Those were supposed to be the main tool for countering bombers and right now they just plain stink in that regard.

Edited April 24, 2014 by -Streven-

[Verain]

It's an actual joke that EMP is that bad. The EMP range is slightly greater than the radius of any given mine, such that if you are trying to disarm both mines it may easily be impossible, and even EMPing one is very very hard- you have only a few hundred meters between "mine gets disarmed" and "mine blows you up". Given that the game isn't "you versus minefield" but "you versus everything, including the bomber and his mines", this is essentially impossible.

 

And if you DO pull it off? Grats on clearing 1 mine, max 2. And maybe turning off the weaker mine for a little bit, MAYBE. Even the perfect EMP is barely relevant.

[Ramalina]

Well, it's a difficult balance problem I think. Away from an objective that wins the game, bomber balance for all builds is somewhere between too weak and fine.

 

Away from cover bombers are easy kills to anything with: slug railgun, proton torpedo, thermite torpedo, heavy laser cannons, and doable if somewhat onerous and hazardous to the ships that don't.

 

In cover, bombers are so difficult to kill and so dangerous that it's simply not worth bothering them unless you have a damage overcharge and armor piercing weapons. Without a substantial boost though, the weapons that deal well with heavy damage reduction hulls are very unwieldy in close quarters, and the one exception (BLCs) are mounted on ships that get shredded before they have a chance to do serious damage if they fly into a minefield.

 

None of this is a problem until you make success in the game contingent on lots of ships spending lots of time in ideal bomber habitat.

 

The non-bomber build for countering bombers at this point would be a spaceframe that mounts charged plating, deflection armor, and burst laser cannons. The itty bitty problem being that this build is not possible.

 

Actually, that's probably too strong, get rid of the deflection armor and it might work though. So basically type 1 strikes with BLCs instead of rapids.

 

Not a buff that I really support, despite my love of strike fighters, just trying to point out that balancing this properly is not a trivial problem.

[Kuciwalker]

I still think the best way to fix domination matches is to either:

 

1) Make satellites move, so that mines will eventually get out of range of the satellite -- orbiting bombers will have to be continuously laying down mines. This also means you can't just hide in the corner of a satellite to avoid attacks...you will have to be in constant motion to stay in range of said satellite.

 

2) Have objective points/satellites vary over time (King of the Hill type gameplay). That way if bombers are camping a node, it might turn off and another objective elsewhere turns on. Then the bombers have the disadvantage of being the slowest to get to the new objective, but still retain the benefit of being the best to hold it when they get there (though for a minimal amount of time).

 

Having static objective nodes that can be camped by over-powered ships is just a recipe for failure.

 

These are both excellent ideas.

[Kheld]

Bioware need to do something.

 

In nearly all the matches I played last night the Imps were fielding 4 bombers spamming seismic & interdiction mines.

 

The worst thing is the Bombers were even taking out the Gunships trying to kill them!