The marketing system is broken due to the crafting system.

[skyknightandy]

I noticed that the market in this game has crashed a while back. What I mean by this is that raw materials are worth more than the finished product. I have a solution for this awful problem. The source of this problem lies within the crafting system itself. Now my solution to solve the market collapse is to: Eliminate the crit for purple materials. For example the Thermal Regulator which is a level 9 slicing material only found when a companion crits in one of their level 450 slicing mission. I think that the crit should be removed; when players send their companions on a mission to find materials they will get that material regardless. By doing that the raw material’s value will drop on the market, but the value of the finished product will stay the same; that should rebalance the market a little leaving crafters room for profit. At the moment a crafter does not make any profit from buying raw materials from the GTN and selling the finished product. Also would like to point out that the crits for crafting, for example: Sending out a companion to craft augment or a mod but crits and ends up making two augments or mods instead of one. That should not affect the price on the item that should be more of a bonus!

[JamieKirby]

I noticed that the market in this game has crashed a while back. What I mean by this is that raw materials are worth more than the finished product. I have a solution for this awful problem. The source of this problem lies within the crafting system itself. Now my solution to solve the market collapse is to: Eliminate the crit for purple materials. For example the Thermal Regulator which is a level 9 slicing material only found when a companion crits in one of their level 450 slicing mission. I think that the crit should be removed; when players send their companions on a mission to find materials they will get that material regardless. By doing that the raw material’s value will drop on the market, but the value of the finished product will stay the same; that should rebalance the market a little leaving crafters room for profit. At the moment a crafter does not make any profit from buying raw materials from the GTN and selling the finished product. Also would like to point out that the crits for crafting, for example: Sending out a companion to craft augment or a mod but crits and ends up making two augments or mods instead of one. That should not affect the price on the item that should be more of a bonus!

 

I like the idea, though i doubt the crafters that routinely abuse the market for max profit and low cost will let this happen, if it was in the pipeline.

[GatorAndy]

It's a free market. Nothing should ever be done to try to "fix" the market.

[Sidenti]

Typically, the proper solution would be to flood the market with materials as you would like, but it never happens in the manner that you're suggesting, original poster.

 

If raw materials prices are higher than the cost of the finished product, one of two errors has occurred:

 

* Production of raw materials is below demand, or

* Prices of finished product do not properly reflect cost of materials and labor

 

In a meatspace economy, these two issues are the ones that get addressed to remedy supply shortages. The former is the best solution in my eyes; ramping up production of raw materials has more net benefit for business and consumer alike than adjusting prices upward to help stem demand for product (which then causes a glut in supply, lowering prices).

 

But artificially pumping resources into an economy of any type can have severe consequences. Let's say the government of a country (the meatspace analog of an MMO's developers) has a pile of oil in reserve. Like, a big pile. Trillions of gallons and such. Now, we all know oil's pricey these days (solely due to increase in demand and production "failing" to meet it - but that's an advanced concept not totally related to this conversation and can wait for another time to be explained fully), and releasing those trillions of barrels to immediately boost supply WOULD cause a sizable drop in the price of a barrel. But there's a lot of wildcatters and well drillers out of work.

 

Same with resource gatherers here - artificially increasing supply hurts demand not only for the raw material, but for the services of those that acquire and sell them.

 

I don't feel your issue can be BEST solved by the manner you suggest. I believe you will find better results by working with resource gatherers on your server to get a better bulk price for goods - or, become one yourself and undersell, thereby driving down the price. A few good wholesalers can keep prices in check across an entire server. -bp

[Starglitter]

Mmm...

 

Thanks for the lesson in "supply and demand", and I agree with a reply that an intelligent crafter does not sell at a loss by underselling the finished item bewlo the cost they paid for its materials.

 

On the other hand, rare materials are made to scarce when you have to have special missions for your gatherers to take, for a pityful chance to get the desired material. Frankly, the need for a special unlocked mission to harvest them should not be needed, and specific regular missions should allow the gatherer to choose his harvest, while an unlockable mission guarantees a very large acquisition of materials such as 10 units and a crit would yield 20, while a specific gahtring mission would yield 2 pieces and a crit would yield 4.

 

This would assist to lower the prices on final manufactured items, for the materials needed to craft the item are more readily available.

 

Sue

[Cyberberus]

IMHO the system is broken due to the commodity market hawks that buy everything in a category then up the price to resell. I've heard people bragging that they make hundreds of thousands of credits a day just "playing the GTN"

[Styxx]

So you just want to keep the same price and increase your profit margin as a crafter, but slicers will have to suck it up and see the prices hit rock bottom from overflow of supply. Aren`t you a funny person, mr. OP?

 

BTW, mr. OP, the problem is not as awful as you think. You see, nobody is forcing you into crafting things that need thermals. You could choose something to craft that doesn`t involve top mats.

 

BUT, as a slicer, I have every right to make a profit, just as you do with your inflated augment prices. On Eclipse they are already around 16 - 17k, which is fair for the money it takes and lower crit chances. It was 8 - 10k for neurals back in the day, with better crit and cheaper missions.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Styxx

[Khevar]

I like the idea, though i doubt the crafters that routinely abuse the market for max profit and low cost will let this happen, if it was in the pipeline.

It would be interesting to debate Capitalism vs Statism with you some day. Do you have a similar view of business, trade and profit outside the game?

[Zharik]

... I agree with a reply that an intelligent crafter does not sell at a loss by underselling the finished item bewlo the cost they paid for its materials...

 

The problem is that there are so many crafters that don't actually check this, and THEY drive the market for said finished product down.

 

Actually the issue is that most everyone crafts *something*, so competition is high. Also zero diversity in the end product does not help at all. Use Skill Augments as an example. Fred's are the same as Luke's who are the same as Adam's, who are all the same as... well everyone who crafts Skill Augments. So the only difference between crafters is price.

[psandak]

This goes back to what DarthTHC said years ago and what I agree with:

 

Make credits not stuff: be aware of the values of materials and crafted goods because many times the materials are valued higher.

 

And what I add:

 

Diversity is a key to success: if you only craft one item for sale and that item no longer sells or the market crashes, you are screwed. Whether you have one character or a dozen, diversity in what you sell will calm the ebbs and flows of the GTN supply and demand markets.

 

Lastly one...

needs to market watch. Simply crafting stuff because you can and hope that it sells (at a profit) is not good business. Tracking of data in a document is one way to handle this but it is time consuming and IMO unnecessary. Before you jump into a market, take a look at what the item is selling for over the course of a few days to a week.

 

The point is that if materials are selling for more than the crafted item, why are you crafting the item in the first place? Sell the materials instead; remember "make credits not stuff." Eventually, with enough players taking the advice above materials' supplies will increase and the value will decrease. Sooo...one can start crafting at a profit again . But then more players craft and that market becomes flooded. Sooo...go back to materials. etc etc etc; Diversity calms those ebbs and flows

 

As a corollary: too many crafters base their goods' prices on cost to acquire versus GTN value. For example most grade 9 gathering skill materials (scavenging, archeology, bioanalysis) cost between 400 and 500 each per unit to acquire (by running missions), but most of them sell for close to 1,000 credits per unit on the GTN. Even worse, some believe that materials gathered from nodes is free .

 

And finally, the GTN is a 100% buyers' market - if the buyers don't buy then the price is too high. Sellers can post stuff on the GTN at whatever price they want, but there is a "sweet spot" where buyers and sellers agree that the price is right: buyers buy and sellers profit. A recent example: Advanced Shield Augment 28s were being priced at 110,000 credits on the GTN. There were only a handful, so I made a batch. It took me two weeks of re-posting to get those to finally sell at 85,000. Obviously, demand was non-existent at the 110k through 86k mark. Maybe it was a lack of need, but one cannot discount the possibility that buyers simply balked at the 110k price and waited until supply increased enough to bring the price down to a more acceptable level.

[JamieKirby]

It would be interesting to debate Capitalism vs Statism with you some day. Do you have a similar view of business, trade and profit outside the game?

 

I am going by ingame economy, not the real world.

 

I mean, in the game, they could spend 2k gathering the materials, could be less or more, depending on mission success and/or critical success or failure and each item could be sold for like 4k, its still a profit, but nope, they charge 15k, 20k.

 

So, its not profit, its pure greed, i have calculated it all and it costs virtually nothing to make blue quality armourings, like level 17 armourings, other crafters charge between 10k-20k each, when it costs no more then 1-2k to make each item, via gathering the materials.

 

In the end, it has nothing to do with profit, its just how many zero's they can add before they never sell, i have made millions just selling to my guild, asking for either a flat fee or materials.

 

I go by cost of gathering the materials, the only thing that costs are the underworld metal gathering, unless you are too lazy to get the scavenging yourself, which i am sure most of them are, so i just charge the gathering cost x 2 and they always accept it, cause its still profit for me and they aren't getting ripped off by other players.

[Khevar]

I go by cost of gathering the materials, the only thing that costs are the underworld metal gathering, unless you are too lazy to get the scavenging yourself, which i am sure most of them are, so i just charge the gathering cost x 2 and they always accept it, cause its still profit for me and they aren't getting ripped off by other players.

Thanks.

 

Do you have some of your calculations as to cost of obtaining materials vs profitability of items sold? I'm quite interested in the numbers.

[JamieKirby]

Thanks.

 

Do you have some of your calculations as to cost of obtaining materials vs profitability of items sold? I'm quite interested in the numbers.

 

all in my head i am afraid, but it is very easily profitable, but i am thinking most of the crafters only see it as a profit if they can spend as little as 10k and charge as high as 100k, any less and they see it as not worth the time.

 

The thing that is funny is that even the level 50 blue quality mods that you can make from materials gained on makeb and any strong or higher droids that are level 51+ is quite cheaply made, because the blue quality UT metals cost like 1k-2k to get from crew missions, the level 50 purple quality stuff, i can understand being so expensive, the purple quality material from UT is so rare its insane.

 

I was surprised how cheap it is to make blue quality armourings and mods, even level 50 ones, the purple quality versions however are quite expensive, solely because of the rareness of the purple quality materials, Ultimately, players tend to just see how many 0's they can add instead of going by how common or how rare the materials used to make the item is.

Edited April 22, 2014 by JamieKirby

[Khevar]

Ultimately, players tend to just see how many 0's they can add instead of going by how common or how rare the materials used to make the item is.

I can't specifically disagree with you on this, because I can't look into anyone else's head.

 

But I think there is another side to this, which is the buyer. In any market that is not controlled by a select few, it is the buyer that determines the value of something, not the seller. Anyone can list a level 31 purple earpiece for 1 billion credits. If nobody is willing to pay that much for it, it isn't worth that.

 

Mind you, there are commodities in this game which are rare and can be controlled. But purple mats are not one of them. The availability is 100% under the control of any crafter with the requisite crew skill. Level up the companion affection, and run enough missions and you'll have a 20% return of purple mats.

 

Same with the schematics for lowbie gear. It doesn't depend on a rare operations drop. Anyone with the requisite crew skill can learn any schematic in the game as long as they spend the time doing Reverse Engineering.

 

In this situation, it is the buyer that determines the value of the item. What affects the buyers willingness to spend money is the fact that many lowbie toons have level 55 alts that can run dailies and email credits.

 

If you don't believe me, just imagine what would happen if we were not allowed to send either money OR GEAR to our leveling alts. That the only gear you had was what you bought on that toon, and the only credits was that which you earned on that toon.

 

The leveling alts would not be able to afford the expensive blue and purple gear. They wouldn't sell. And the crafters would lower their prices.

 

In a Capitalist economy (of which TOR is a microcosmic example) the buyer has more power than the seller to set the prices.

[JamieKirby]

I can't specifically disagree with you on this, because I can't look into anyone else's head.

 

But I think there is another side to this, which is the buyer. In any market that is not controlled by a select few, it is the buyer that determines the value of something, not the seller. Anyone can list a level 31 purple earpiece for 1 billion credits. If nobody is willing to pay that much for it, it isn't worth that.

 

Mind you, there are commodities in this game which are rare and can be controlled. But purple mats are not one of them. The availability is 100% under the control of any crafter with the requisite crew skill. Level up the companion affection, and run enough missions and you'll have a 20% return of purple mats.

 

Same with the schematics for lowbie gear. It doesn't depend on a rare operations drop. Anyone with the requisite crew skill can learn any schematic in the game as long as they spend the time doing Reverse Engineering.

 

In this situation, it is the buyer that determines the value of the item. What affects the buyers willingness to spend money is the fact that many lowbie toons have level 55 alts that can run dailies and email credits.

 

If you don't believe me, just imagine what would happen if we were not allowed to send either money OR GEAR to our leveling alts. That the only gear you had was what you bought on that toon, and the only credits was that which you earned on that toon.

 

The leveling alts would not be able to afford the expensive blue and purple gear. They wouldn't sell. And the crafters would lower their prices.

 

In a Capitalist economy (of which TOR is a microcosmic example) the buyer has more power than the seller to set the prices.

 

To a point you are correct, but not completely.

 

I personally HATE crafting, but when i had the choice of either paying over 200k per upgrade, which was every 5-6 levels, even low level to just paying a tiny amount of credits to get enough materials for all the armourings i could ever need, it was a no brainer, my credits went up by 10mil just by selling the spares made via critical successes and thats via selling the items for 2x gathering costs.

 

The difference between me and majority of the crafters is, that i am not greedy.

[Khevar]

The difference between me and majority of the crafters is, that i am not greedy.

I hear you.

 

I would argue that it is likely that majority of all sales of crafted materials work this way:

 

1. Make item.

2. Open GTN.

3. Shift-click on item to search by name.

4. Sort by descending price.

5. List below that.

 

I believe that many crafters don't have the faintest clue what their actual profit margins are. They just see what someone else is selling, and sell below that. Sometimes a little below, sometimes a lot.

 

There will occasionally be a market that is empty. It is only in this situation that a seller has the opportunity to "add as many zeroes as they can"

 

The typical crafter, who is listing below the current cheapest listing: Do you consider them to be greedy?

Edited April 22, 2014 by Khevar

[JamieKirby]

I hear you.

 

I would argue that it is likely that majority of all sales of crafted materials work this way:

 

1. Make item.

2. Open GTN.

3. Shift-click on item to search by name.

4. Sort by descending price.

5. List below that.

 

I believe that many crafters don't have the faintest clue what their actual profit margins are. They just see what someone else is selling, and sell below that. Sometimes a little below, sometimes a lot.

 

There will occasionally be a market that is empty. It is only in this situation that a seller has the opportunity to "add as many zeroes as they can"

 

The typical crafter, who is listing below the current cheapest listing: Do you consider them to be greedy?

 

Well no, i mean if they looted something that was worth say 10k and put it for sale at 100k+, then its greed, but if they put it on the GTN for around 5% of its worth, above or below, then its fine.....as in 95% or 105% of its worth....not just 5%. lol

[Korithras]

Crafting materials will always be in higher demand than any finished product from a crafting profession. This is true for any MMO not just swtor. Why? Because not everybody is necessarily looking for the finished product you're looking to sell, more people need the raw materials for their own crafting.

 

Nothing is "broken" you're just playing the wrong game to try and make money.

[Khevar]

Well no, i mean if they looted something that was worth say 10k and put it for sale at 100k+, then its greed, but if they put it on the GTN for around 5% of its worth, above or below, then its fine.....as in 95% or 105% of its worth....not just 5%. lol

My point is these players probably don't know what it is inherently "worth". They're not calculating their costs and adding a small margin.

 

They see what someone ELSE thought it was worth, and list just below that. I wouldn't be but a bit surprised to see that most all GTN listings are like that.

 

I just don't see this as greed. Greed implies intent. Motive. An attempt to bilk buyers out of their cash.

 

Most of these crafters simply want to make money so they can buy X thing that they want, or to cover their repair fees, or are tired of running dailies. So they make something. They list it on the GTN. If they list it just below whatever the cheapest price is, that's not (to me) the same thing as greed.

 

Even if they could list it for lower and still make a profit.

[JamieKirby]

Crafting materials will always be in higher demand than any finished product from a crafting profession. This is true for any MMO not just swtor. Why? Because not everybody is necessarily looking for the finished product you're looking to sell, more people need the raw materials for their own crafting.

 

Nothing is "broken" you're just playing the wrong game to try and make money.

 

Sometimes that is true, but most of the time, it is totally wrong.