The BattleZone! Demo Match: 4-way Brawl

[Beniboybling]

Malgus can more than likely make afterimages, he also has made shields using his blade and also red smears with it, yeah she dodged lightsaber attacks from someone who hasn't shown to be anywhere near the capacity that Malgus is in terms of combat. Traya hasn't shown to be superior to Malgus in terms of saber combat nor speed.

 

Except this is fiction Beni, with something called The Force which throws logic out the window. Vader has shown superior speed to Kun, Kun has only shown being fast enough to create afterimages with his blade, Vader has done that and more.

 

So if were just gonna disregard feats, then what is the point of having battles or fights at all if were just gonna go on speculating?

 

But anyway I'm done, I just want this to be called already, we kinda agree anyway on who wins.

You need to take into account more than just feats, they are facts as well. Failing to do so gives you the incomplete and flawed picture that you currently have. Feats are only relevant if you can prove the limitations of a character.

 

Or would we use such logic to claim that Vader is faster, stronger etc. than the Father? Because he is featless.

[tunewalker]

He consciously heals his lungs partially which allows him to breathe without life support for as long as he maintains concentration.

 

He has healed his own wounds just by giving into rage(instantly healed his broken ribs to a permanent state) but he is also listed with Dark Healing in the Campaign Guides, also when he fought Baas the first time, Baas noticed that the cuts on Kun's face were fresh scars after Kun defeated him outright and his Master noticed that Kun didn't even seem to recognise this himself.

 

The handy thing with his personal brand of Dark Rage is that at times he is able to willingly consume himself in Dark Rage, a most impressive skill.

 

Also as far as Kun's physical endurance goes, he did manage to maintain his ability to travel great distances after having his ribs broken by the collapsing of a tomb on a Korriban, then walk to his ship while fighting 'dark side beasts', pilot the ship to Yavin IV successfully, survived extreme torture at the hands of the Massassi and thenhis Dark Rage first consumed him as he accepted the Dark Side after days of rejecting Nadd.

 

So I think his physical endurance is being underestimated.

 

Traya has used Dark Healing on many many occasions, including returning Tobin to a healed state instantly, Hanharr the same, walked off and presumably healed a self inflicted lightsaber to the abdomen and many many other times I won't bother to count

 

Traya's Dark healing that you just showed are all out of combat and none of them are instantaneous. If memory serves, the screen always fades to black in between the time when she starts healing and finishes suggesting a passage of time.

 

Vader could use Dark rage willingly as well, as it is the only means he had for Dark Healing and he did use it out side of combat.

 

Kun's endurance is impressive, just nothing by the comparison to Vader or Malgus, I shouldnt have to list the things Vader has survived or taken to the face and went.... ya what ev's.

 

As far as Kun's healing.... I am not seeing the example of in combat instantaneuous healing you were talking about. He has fresh scars.... ok that didnt say he got those scars in THAT fight. He has dark healing..... grats, that doesnt say anything about his skill WITH the ability.

[tunewalker]

You need to take into account more than just feats, they are facts as well. Failing to do so gives you the incomplete and flawed picture that you currently have. Feats are only relevant if you can prove the limitations of a character.

 

Or would we use such logic to claim that Vader is faster, stronger etc. than the Father? Because he is featless.

 

Actually I would argue that he is faster and stronger then father. But obviously Father beats him in all manners of force application, Telepathy, TK, illusions, so on and so forth.

[LadyKulvax]

Traya's Dark healing that you just showed are all out of combat and none of them are instantaneous. If memory serves, the screen always fades to black in between the time when she starts healing and finishes suggesting a passage of time.

 

Vader could use Dark rage willingly as well, as it is the only means he had for Dark Healing and he did use it out side of combat.

 

Kun's endurance is impressive, just nothing by the comparison to Vader or Malgus, I shouldnt have to list the things Vader has survived or taken to the face and went.... ya what ev's.

 

As far as Kun's healing.... I am not seeing the example of in combat instantaneuous healing you were talking about. He has fresh scars.... ok that didnt say he got those scars in THAT fight. He has dark healing..... grats, that doesnt say anything about his skill WITH the ability.

 

I am not overly familiar with Traya's feats but Beni and Selenial could surely answer this for me, but I am practically certain she was capable of this.

 

Vader can use Dark Rage, because he almost lives off of it, Kun however can Force Channel the Dark Side into him and go AWOL:

 

"Kun marched through the senate but as he turned his former master's presence became physical, realising precisely what would happen, he focused inwards and channelled directly into his body the power of the Dark Side, simultaneously he was fighting the Krevaaki Master and as each hit landed on both sides he could almost see the Dark Side itself and as it surrounded him and the beacon of light infront of him like a violet black smoke, he felt a clarity of pure power and finally he hit the staff of the old Jedi with such surity of purpose that it exploded in the air right infront of him, he felt the blade slide down through the shell of the Jedi and saw the light extinguish with a few meaningless words vanishing with it. He was truly a master of his own power now."

 

Kun was apparently splitting his attention and willingly channelled a dark rage through himself.

 

It is however a total 180 to the claim that he was physically squishy, which he was not by any measure.

 

1, He fought Sylvar and had three large cuts down his cheek, then he fought Baas and then fought Baas again, won and Baas noticed the cuts weren't bleeding infact they were now fresh scars.

 

2, He was about to be devoured by a Giant Sith Wyrm and embraced the Dark Side completely, this sent him into an enormous bout of rage, force waving all the warriors around him, Force Blasting the Wyrm and healing all his injuries simultaneously.

[tunewalker]

I am not overly familiar with Traya's feats but Beni and Selenial could surely answer this for me, but I am practically certain she was capable of this.

 

Vader can use Dark Rage, because he almost lives off of it, Kun however can Force Channel the Dark Side into him and go AWOL:

 

"Kun marched through the senate but as he turned his former master's presence became physical, realising precisely what would happen, he focused inwards and channelled directly into his body the power of the Dark Side, simultaneously he was fighting the Krevaaki Master and as each hit landed on both sides he could almost see the Dark Side itself and as it surrounded him and the beacon of light infront of him like a violet black smoke, he felt a clarity of pure power and finally he hit the staff of the old Jedi with such surity of purpose that it exploded in the air right infront of him, he felt the blade slide down through the shell of the Jedi and saw the light extinguish with a few meaningless words vanishing with it. He was truly a master of his own power now."

 

Kun was apparently splitting his attention and willingly channelled a dark rage through himself.

 

It is however a total 180 to the claim that he was physically squishy, which he was not by any measure.

 

1, He fought Sylvar and had three large cuts down his cheek, then he fought Baas and then fought Baas again, won and Baas noticed the cuts weren't bleeding infact they were now fresh scars.

 

2, He was about to be devoured by a Giant Sith Wyrm and embraced the Dark Side completely, this sent him into an enormous bout of rage, force waving all the warriors around him, Force Blasting the Wyrm and healing all his injuries simultaneously.

 

He is physically quishy with out his force powers. In the one time we see him striped of his powers a hit to the head with a Projectile practically knocked him out cold. His physical durability is dependent on his abilities with Dark Rage and Force Valor.

 

While he has shown great feats of durability with these abilities it does take energy from him to handle it. Vader's suite means he needs less use of Valor and Dark Rage to sustain himself, but is still capable of using both to an equal or greater degree then Kun for the purposes of Endurance.

 

 

1. Deffinate passage of time depicted.

 

 

2. Seems potentially a 1 time thing. Vader has replicated, except for the permanent aspect of it being fair though Vader's normal injuries are more severe.

 

 

Edit: why are we still talking about this, this fight isnt 1v1 almost all of this is stuff we know and is the reason Kun has the advantages he does. This doesnt make any difference.

Edited May 15, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Traya's Dark healing that you just showed are all out of combat and none of them are instantaneous. If memory serves, the screen always fades to black in between the time when she starts healing and finishes suggesting a passage of time.

This seems to be brought up every time lawls:

 

 

 

Instantaneous, both times, you remember incorrectly. Also quoting Wookieepedia:

 

Initial levels required meditation, but greater aptitude usually granted faster regeneration, without need of meditation. Greater levels of attainment were also able to mend far more severe injuries, even major damage to flesh and bone and even going as far as to mend internal damage, such as damage to the heart, lungs, and so forth.

 

As a high level master of Force Healing, I expect she will have little difficulty healing her injuries if given the slightest reprieve. Though it may even be possible for her to channel healing energies in the midst of combat, given that she and other Force Users can channel energy in-situ for things like Force Valor and such.

[Beniboybling]

I think Kun has versatility and adaptibility, Vader and Malgus will both be subject to the darker arts of both Kun and Traya, whilst Vader and Malgus have shown durability, these feats are not comparable to the effects of being drained, being hit with a Force Blast of pure Dark Side energy or any other darker arts.

 

Meanwhile both Kun and Traya have shown the ability to sustain injury and heal themselves almost instantaneously.

Due to that reason I think this edge for Malgus and Vader is being overstated, yes they can take serious injury, but Kun and Traya can both heal themselves of said injuries, the other two can't.

 

Whilst Malgus is likely a master Form V practitioner, Traya is likely to be a master or at least a highly skilled practitioner of multiple forms here, her telekinetic lightsaber combat is something none of them have seen before, which is an advantage.

 

Kun's personal combat techniques are being underestimated here, hearing of something and facing it are two different things, Kun is the best Niman practitioner of all time, he completely redesigned the form at the highest levels and incorporated mastery of Ataru and Juyo as well, it essentially became a whole other form unto itself, we must also consider the fact that facing a dual-bladed lightsaber and facing one with the length of a single hilt and which randomly shortens and lengthens each blade or ignites and extinguishes altogether is a completely different thing to facing a regular one likely weilded with Juyo purely.

 

Both Traya and Kun have weapons and techniques that are almost completely unknown to the others.

 

I am more and more of the opinion that this may end between Traya and Kun.

 

I think therefore Kun wins as he simply has a more effective bag of tricks against her than she has against him.

I think Vader's ability to sustain massive injury with little hindrance, and his ability to shrug off powerful attacks with only suffering cosmetic damage matches if not surpasses Traya or Exar Kun's ability to heal themselves.

 

The main reason is shock factor, if Exar Kun or Traya are injured they will suffer its effects until they can heal themselves, it will cause a momentary lapse in their ability to fight, whereas Vader can just push straight past it, he can even use it to make him stronger. However I think the reason Vader will win is because everyone will perceive Kun as the biggest threat, and therefore focus on him, and Kun will falter under multiple assaults.

 

Now I do agree that Exar Kun's lightsaber abilities will have Vader on the back foot, but he is capable of hunkering down and can regain the advantage with Force-based attacks which in terms of application Vader wins out.

[tunewalker]

This seems to be brought up every time lawls:

 

 

 

Instantaneous, both times, you remember incorrectly. Also quoting Wookieepedia:

 

Initial levels required meditation, but greater aptitude usually granted faster regeneration, without need of meditation. Greater levels of attainment were also able to mend far more severe injuries, even major damage to flesh and bone and even going as far as to mend internal damage, such as damage to the heart, lungs, and so forth.

 

As a high level master of Force Healing, I expect she will have little difficulty healing her injuries if given the slightest reprieve. Though it may even be possible for her to channel healing energies in the midst of combat, given that she and other Force Users can channel energy in-situ for things like Force Valor and such.

 

Yoda can channel Valor in situ as well, but is noted as having difficulties using other powers in situ. Valor is very differenet then the rest and healing even more so.

 

That being said she is shown SOMEWHAT healing those 2 instantly. Notice how both are still very clearly in pain when they awaken. And thats not herself so....but thank you for showing me those, I was looking for them but couldnt find them .

 

 

Edit: not saying she cant some what heal herself if she gets a reprieve, fully believe and know she can. I just dont know she is going to get that reprieve honestly and dont think she can do so in combat with any kind of great affect.

Edited May 15, 2014 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

I think Vader's ability to sustain massive injury with little hindrance, and his ability to shrug off powerful attacks with only suffering cosmetic damage matches if not surpasses Traya or Exar Kun's ability to heal themselves.

 

The main reason is shock factor, if Exar Kun or Traya are injured they will suffer its effects until they can heal themselves, it will cause a momentary lapse in their ability to fight, whereas Vader can just push straight past it, he can even use it to make him stronger. However I think the reason Vader will win is because everyone will perceive Kun as the biggest threat, and therefore focus on him, and Kun will falter under multiple assaults.

 

Now I do agree that Exar Kun's lightsaber abilities will have Vader on the back foot, but he is capable of hunkering down and can regain the advantage with Force-based attacks which in terms of application Vader wins out.

 

by force application of course you mean in situ application.

[Beniboybling]

Yoda can channel Valor in situ as well, but is noted as having difficulties using other powers in situ. Valor is very differenet then the rest and healing even more so.

 

That being said she is shown SOMEWHAT healing those 2 instantly. Notice how both are still very clearly in pain when they awaken. And thats not herself so....but thank you for showing me those, I was looking for them but couldnt find them .

Such as? Is healing one of them? Yoda is a very different character to Traya, namely as a scholar he had needed time to gather his energies before attacking, Traya displays no such weakness. This seems like tenous circumstantial evidence to me.

 

I see little difference between Force Valor and Healing, both involve channeling energy through the body.

 

Considering that they were both close to death, I'm not surprised. It should also be easier to heal herself considering she doesn't need to exert her powers on the environment around her, drawing on the sphere of Alter.

[tunewalker]

Such as? Is healing one of them? Yoda is a very different character to Traya, namely as a scholar he had needed time to gather his energies before attacking, Traya displays no such weakness. This seems like tenous circumstantial evidence to me.

 

I see little difference between Force Valor and Healing, both involve channeling energy through the body.

 

Considering that they were both close to death, I'm not surprised. It should also be easier to heal herself considering she doesn't need to exert her powers on the environment around her, drawing on the sphere of Alter.

 

Force Valor, even for those that are inable to use powers in situ can be used in situ. Force Valor is one of those in situ only powers. It is a very very bad example of using powers in situ. That was the point. We already noted that starting out healing requires meditation, thus depending on the level of the person depends on how in situ they can do it. Valor is very different as all jedi can do so in situ but not all can heal in situ.

 

The issue I am having is I dont know if we have enough evidence to suggest she can do it easily in situ, but minor healing does seem possible should she be given 5 seconds to gather her energies. Like she isnt going to be healing mid saber sequence but the speed of which she healed the others does suggest minor healing ability should she get a couple seconds reprieve.

 

The whole herself vs others is why I think she can do it in combat at all.

 

Just was trying to note some one using Valor in Situ is a very poor example and reason for using other powers in situ.

[LadyKulvax]

I think Vader's ability to sustain massive injury with little hindrance, and his ability to shrug off powerful attacks with only suffering cosmetic damage matches if not surpasses Traya or Exar Kun's ability to heal themselves.

 

The main reason is shock factor, if Exar Kun or Traya are injured they will suffer its effects until they can heal themselves, it will cause a momentary lapse in their ability to fight, whereas Vader can just push straight past it, he can even use it to make him stronger. However I think the reason Vader will win is because everyone will perceive Kun as the biggest threat, and therefore focus on him, and Kun will falter under multiple assaults.

 

Now I do agree that Exar Kun's lightsaber abilities will have Vader on the back foot, but he is capable of hunkering down and can regain the advantage with Force-based attacks which in terms of application Vader wins out.

I doubt this is as true against the Force attacks Traya and Kun will use, I mean Bane was a superb juggernaut and could take metric tons and still fight on, but against Zannah's sorcery he went into the fetal position and rolled around like a kid with a boo boo until he attempted Essence Transfer as a final gambit, he was helpless.

 

Also I still don't understand where people are getting this happy tree friends grouping up mentality from, Vader is a Rule of Two Sith Lord who wants to rule the galaxy and any force user he comes across he either fashions into an apprentice or just kills them, Malgus wants to be Emperor, free of Sith politics and Traya is well known for using others to her own ends, neither Vader or Malgus are stupid enough to trust her nor do they have reason to.

 

These aren't Jedi, they are competing Dark Lords of the Sith.

 

I also highly disagree in Force application, Kun has the absolute advantage here, Vader's TK is better but not so much so that he can just ragdoll Kun or pelt him with objects all he wants, Kun has multiple ways to defend himself:

 

Simply fly or jump out of the way of large enough objects, which considering how easily he leapt over and acrobatically flung himself at Ulic, who is noted as an extremely fast combatant in every regard, will be easy for Kun or he can Force Wave multiple objects at the same time or tank any direct TK attacks, channel the anger/pain he recieves and then send Vader a nasty fairly powerful reply straight away.

 

Or the best yet, if he's channelling himself: he unleashes a mini-nuke sized Force Blast instantaneously, disintegrates the object thrown at him and significantly injures or hampers Vader on the spot, given the sheer radius of those max level blasts, Vader is not getting out of the way and Vader won't just be tanking or shrugging it off, it's a big f'n beam of Dark Side energy, he's gonna feel it hard.

 

Vader yet again on the otherhand has one defense: get out of the damn way, which isn't exactly efficient as Kun can keep doing this.

 

Kun has strong physical endurance, rage amp, stupid strong Force Barriers, permanent and instantaneous Dark Healing induced by Rage, dodging or flying out of the way and a chestplate made of Beskar.

 

Vader has zombie type physical endurance, rage amp, strong armor, tough but beatable Force Barriers, dodging, highly efficient Form V defenses.

 

Difference here is: Kun's combined defences and endurance is going to work efficiently against essentially anything Vader can throw at him, essentially every defence Vader has is no use against Kun's sorcery, his physical endurance like Bane's will also count for little against that.

 

This is the glaring advantage Kun has here, he has a capable defence against all his opponents and a bag of tricks all to himself that the others either have no knowledge of or just aren't nearly as good at, the other three cannot claim the same.

[Beniboybling]

Force Valor, even for those that are inable to use powers in situ can be used in situ. Force Valor is one of those in situ only powers. It is a very very bad example of using powers in situ. That was the point. We already noted that starting out healing requires meditation, thus depending on the level of the person depends on how in situ they can do it. Valor is very different as all jedi can do so in situ but not all can heal in situ.

 

The issue I am having is I dont know if we have enough evidence to suggest she can do it easily in situ, but minor healing does seem possible should she be given 5 seconds to gather her energies. Like she isnt going to be healing mid saber sequence but the speed of which she healed the others does suggest minor healing ability should she get a couple seconds reprieve.

 

The whole herself vs others is why I think she can do it in combat at all.

 

Just was trying to note some one using Valor in Situ is a very poor example and reason for using other powers in situ.

Of course Force Valor requires less concentration than Force Healing, but it operates under the same principles, and high caliber masters do not require meditation. Using in in situ is therefore very possible.

 

On the other hand if she has a brief reprieve, I'm sure she can accomplish more than just "minor healing" if she is capable of bringing people back from the brink of death, that can be used to recover from near-mortal wounds.

[tunewalker]

Of course Force Valor requires less concentration than Force Healing, but it operates under the same principles, and high caliber masters do not require meditation. Using in in situ is therefore very possible.

 

On the other hand if she has a brief reprieve, I'm sure she can accomplish more than just "minor healing" if she is capable of bringing people back from the brink of death, that can be used to recover from near-mortal wounds.

 

Well she brings them back from near death, but if some one were to barely tap them they would be out cold again. That to me is minor healing. Yes she can heal herself from a broken bone, but she isnt going to be healing if nearly all of her bones are broken. The heal she did when she got stabbed in the gut is the one I am still possitive there may have been a fade to black if I am wrong then I am wrong and she could even heal near fatal stab wounds in a matter of seconds, but its still time to a degree, time enough for any one to finish the job.

[tunewalker]

I doubt this is as true against the Force attacks Traya and Kun will use, I mean Bane was a superb juggernaut and could take metric tons and still fight on, but against Zannah's sorcery he went into the fetal position and rolled around like a kid with a boo boo until he attempted Essence Transfer as a final gambit, he was helpless.

 

Also I still don't understand where people are getting this happy tree friends grouping up mentality from, Vader is a Rule of Two Sith Lord who wants to rule the galaxy and any force user he comes across he either fashions into an apprentice or just kills them, Malgus wants to be Emperor, free of Sith politics and Traya is well known for using others to her own ends, neither Vader or Malgus are stupid enough to trust her nor do they have reason to.

 

These aren't Jedi, they are competing Dark Lords of the Sith.

 

I also highly disagree in Force application, Kun has the absolute advantage here, Vader's TK is better but not so much so that he can just ragdoll Kun or pelt him with objects all he wants, Kun has multiple ways to defend himself:

 

Simply fly or jump out of the way of large enough objects, which considering how easily he leapt over and acrobatically flung himself at Ulic, who is noted as an extremely fast combatant in every regard, will be easy for Kun or he can Force Wave multiple objects at the same time or tank any direct TK attacks, channel the anger/pain he recieves and then send Vader a nasty fairly powerful reply straight away.

 

Or the best yet, if he's channelling himself: he unleashes a mini-nuke sized Force Blast instantaneously, disintegrates the object thrown at him and significantly injures or hampers Vader on the spot, given the sheer radius of those max level blasts, Vader is not getting out of the way and Vader won't just be tanking or shrugging it off, it's a big f'n beam of Dark Side energy, he's gonna feel it hard.

 

Vader yet again on the otherhand has one defense: get out of the damn way, which isn't exactly efficient as Kun can keep doing this.

 

Kun has strong physical endurance, rage amp, stupid strong Force Barriers, permanent and instantaneous Dark Healing induced by Rage, dodging or flying out of the way and a chestplate made of Beskar.

 

Vader has zombie type physical endurance, rage amp, strong armor, tough but beatable Force Barriers, dodging, highly efficient Form V defenses.

 

Difference here is: Kun's combined defences and endurance is going to work efficiently against essentially anything Vader can throw at him, essentially every defence Vader has is no use against Kun's sorcery, his physical endurance like Bane's will also count for little against that.

 

This is the glaring advantage Kun has here, he has a capable defence against all his opponents and a bag of tricks all to himself that the others either have no knowledge of or just aren't nearly as good at, the other three cannot claim the same.

 

those max level blasts do not seem possible, he only did them with the help of the gauntlet and the nexus so he cant do the blasts of which you speak. (wolf already said this to which no one responded)

 

I dont know where you get this "all the combatants are idiots" mentality. Kun is the ONLY combatant that all 3, regardless of any special knowledge being granted, would have knowledge of. He is incredibly famous, well known and well regarded by all 3 of them. Thus he is a clear and present threat to all 3 of them.

 

Will the Battle be chaotic?..... yes. Will the majority of the fighters go in with the goal to take out Kun? YES A BIG YES.

 

Vader is a master of playing opponents against each other and a master of Dun Moch. He can and will get people to even unknowingly strike at Kun.

 

And again we have seen what has happen to kun getting force pushed by a high level master, he marginalized the damage... not nigated it entirely. Vader is much stronger. From what I am seeing I think the Force blasts that Kun can unleash with out circumstances helping him out is being over estimated, and Vader's Tk is being underestimated, but thats up to Aurbere to decide.

 

Honestly guys we are spinning are wheels we have said all of this already its time to just let Aurbere decide.

 

 

Edit: I want to make it clear, I largely agree with you on one factor, that Kun's in situ application may be underestimate, he was a master of Niman and as such should be capable of chaining force based attacks into his saber sequences. I dont think he can do so to the caliber of which you speak.

 

That said I dont think it matters. this isnt a 1v1 duel its a 1v1v1v1 duel a chaotic battle. And like Anakin vs Obi-wan while one combatant may have the stronger Force power, and better saber skill the one with the mind that allows them to pit others against each other will win. For this fight that is Vader and Traya and between the 2 Vader is the better, but again spinning wheels. We have already said all this.

Edited May 15, 2014 by tunewalker

[LadyKulvax]

Is that why he did the same thing twice? Once to Nadd and once to the Wyrm, this wasn't just some one time display, he did it the first time and then did it a second time to an even more impressive yield.

 

Oh and nothing is being stated but sourcing canonical facts here, whilst the comparison i made was my own it is based off of factual analysis, Vader's TK is not being underestimated here, Kun simply has many ways to at the least mitigate the effects of if not block Vader's assaults outright and there is no overestimating of his Blasts here either, I have used canonical events to prove my point on all of my examples here, Kun's Force Blast is not something Vader like Bane will have faced before.

 

Oh and I am not stating that these combatants are idiots AT ALL, I stated precisely the opposite, they are all smart, two of them are proud and none of them will trust each other.

 

Vader's Rule of Two is all about undermining and killing your master, it is the most brutal form of Sith 'politics' in the canon and Malgus will despise him for it, he will hate Traya absolutely for her nature alone, Malgus is also incredibly prideful, has shown many times that he prefers to stand on his own two feet and proved in Decieved that he wanted to get his kills himself, add to that fact he won't trust anyone here with so much as a pause in combat and the evidence stacks against the idea he would form some little temporary cease fire.

 

Vader is cunning, he also has only ever killed or taken as an apprentice any Force User he has met, he is a Rule of Two Sith Lord and his very nature will push him into killing everyone here if he can.

 

Traya isn't trustworthy but also is the smartest here, why try forming a committee when she can just hide it out, this tactic works in her favour more than any other, if she is however spotted, whomever does the spotting is not going to allow her to play her game of Dejariik here.

 

Sorry but their personalities and mentalities do not in any way mesh here, so I don't see how the simple fact that Kun is powerful will all of sudden have them swapping holonet devices.

 

Which leads me to another point, we recognise Kun as the most powerful, but how will the rest? Traya is the only one here who isn't too egotistical to think she is the big shot, Vader thinks he's the second only to Sidious, the chosen one and is likely to consider this just another mop up of non-Rule of Two Force Users regardless of ability, hence his recklessness in handling Galen Marek and his clones.

 

Malgus became disillusioned with the power of the Dark Council and the Emperor himself and didn't even consider the possibility he could lose in his personal revolution, hence fighting 4 on 1 against a striketeam and still believing he'd win, he even dismissed his Imperial Guard he was so confident.

 

Traya is the only one here who doesn't have an ego the size of the outer-rim.

 

So I don't see how the 3 on 1 will even start nevermind work.

 

As far as the meatgrinder situation goes, yes this is the most likely fight, I do not think however cunning wins out above all else, much more needs to be taken into account, including survivability, lethality, adaptibility, the environment, tunnel visioning and something that comes with four ways naturally: watching your back.

[tunewalker]

Is that why he did the same thing twice? Once to Nadd and once to the Wyrm, this wasn't just some one time display, he did it the first time and then did it a second time to an even more impressive yield.

 

Oh and nothing is being stated but sourcing canonical facts here, whilst the comparison i made was my own it is based off of factual analysis, Vader's TK is not being underestimated here, Kun simply has many ways to at the least mitigate the effects of if not block Vader's assaults outright and there is no overestimating of his Blasts here either, I have used canonical events to prove my point on all of my examples here, Kun's Force Blast is not something Vader like Bane will have faced before.

 

Oh and I am not stating that these combatants are idiots AT ALL, I stated precisely the opposite, they are all smart, two of them are proud and none of them will trust each other.

 

Vader's Rule of Two is all about undermining and killing your master, it is the most brutal form of Sith 'politics' in the canon and Malgus will despise him for it, he will hate Traya absolutely for her nature alone, Malgus is also incredibly prideful, has shown many times that he prefers to stand on his own two feet and proved in Decieved that he wanted to get his kills himself, add to that fact he won't trust anyone here with so much as a pause in combat and the evidence stacks against the idea he would form some little temporary cease fire.

 

Vader is cunning, he also has only ever killed or taken as an apprentice any Force User he has met, he is a Rule of Two Sith Lord and his very nature will push him into killing everyone here if he can.

 

Traya isn't trustworthy but also is the smartest here, why try forming a committee when she can just hide it out, this tactic works in her favour more than any other, if she is however spotted, whomever does the spotting is not going to allow her to play her game of Dejariik here.

 

Sorry but their personalities and mentalities do not in any way mesh here, so I don't see how the simple fact that Kun is powerful will all of sudden have them swapping holonet devices.

 

Which leads me to another point, we recognise Kun as the most powerful, but how will the rest? Traya is the only one here who isn't too egotistical to think she is the big shot, Vader thinks he's the second only to Sidious, the chosen one and is likely to consider this just another mop up of non-Rule of Two Force Users regardless of ability, hence his recklessness in handling Galen Marek and his clones.

 

Malgus became disillusioned with the power of the Dark Council and the Emperor himself and didn't even consider the possibility he could lose in his personal revolution, hence fighting 4 on 1 against a striketeam and still believing he'd win, he even dismissed his Imperial Guard he was so confident.

 

Traya is the only one here who doesn't have an ego the size of the outer-rim.

 

So I don't see how the 3 on 1 will even start nevermind work.

 

As far as the meatgrinder situation goes, yes this is the most likely fight, I do not think however cunning wins out above all else, much more needs to be taken into account, including survivability, lethality, adaptibility, the environment, tunnel visioning and something that comes with four ways naturally: watching your back.

 

 

Just based on the last part, Adaptability, enviroment, Tunnel Vissioning and watching back has all to do with the cunning.

 

The most tunnel vision of the group is Kun and Malgus, The most adaptable of the group is Vader and Kun, the one who utilizes the enviroment the best is Vader and the best at watching their backs is Vader and Traya. All the mental stuff benefits Vader.

 

Vader is a master of the Dun Moch tactic and a master of the Larger distraction end of things. He is extremely adapt at playing opponents against each other and in this case this means playing Kun against Malgus and Traya and Malgus and Traya against Kun.

 

Malgus Tactical Tunnel Vission is where this will hurt Kun. Malgus once pushed towards Kun will keep Kun busy while Vader and Traya do their usual trechery. Kun will take time to fight Malgus and meet his power blows all the while Traya and Vader will prep a well time large object through that Malgus's tactical tunnel vission will set Kun up for. Aka trying to set him up for somethign for MALGUS to do not realizing both Kun and Malgus are being played against each other by Vader and Traya.

 

And while they all admitedly have ego we both know that it is cannon fact they knew Kun and spoke highly of him. Every sith spoke highly of Kun. Thats the problem, they know he is strong. Vader is the least arogant of the bunch here. While yes he thinks he is hot stuff, he knows that is in part because of his ability to manipulate people into doing what he wants whether they know it or not. He knows his connection to the force is hampered.

 

Its not about their ego's its about who they know is the strongest BESIDES themselves. They all may think they are top dog, but there is one person they will see as the biggest threat besides themselves and for every single one of them.... that's Kun. They arent communicating... they are attacking, its just going to be Vader's natural nature to play Malgus and Traya against Kun. A tactic he wields with practiced ease. Malgus once on some one isnt going to get off and besides himself he will know Kun to be top dog other then himself thus tunnel Vission. Traya is oportunistic, Vader pitting Malgus against Kun and Malgus essentially unwittingly playing the fool while Vader preps, Traya will take the hint and the Opportunity to take out the one she veiws as the most deadly and possibly take out Malgus as well. 2 for 1 special.

 

 

Again I am not sure what you are refering to. Are you refering to the blasts? in which case we are going to be more specific. Again as far as I am aware Wolf already debunked blasts that can do massive damage to durasteel and what not by the fact that everytime he did so was either Dark side nexus or Gaunlet enhancing his powers. Just cus he does so when his powers are enhanced consistantly doesnt mean he can do so with out his powers enhanced. That just means we can tell what he can do with his powers enhanced. Further more he didnt use these blasts though he would assumed have enough time to do so in several of his duels, suggesting as beni said it would take him time to gather his energies for such blasts, enough time that ANY ONE can interupt him and in a meat grinder like this it means those blasts arent even going to come into play.

 

Just like I doubt Malgus's Maelstrom will come into play.

Edited May 15, 2014 by tunewalker

[ShadowMudkip]

Just based on the last part, Adaptability, enviroment, Tunnel Vissioning and watching back has all to do with the cunning.

 

The most tunnel vision of the group is Kun and Malgus, The most adaptable of the group is Vader and Kun, the one who utilizes the enviroment the best is Vader and the best at watching their backs is Vader and Traya. All the mental stuff benefits Vader.

 

Vader is a master of the Dun Moch tactic and a master of the Larger distraction end of things. He is extremely adapt at playing opponents against each other and in this case this means playing Kun against Malgus and Traya and Malgus and Traya against Kun.

 

Malgus Tactical Tunnel Vission is where this will hurt Kun. Malgus once pushed towards Kun will keep Kun busy while Vader and Traya do their usual trechery. Kun will take time to fight Malgus and meet his power blows all the while Traya and Vader will prep a well time large object through that Malgus's tactical tunnel vission will set Kun up for. Aka trying to set him up for somethign for MALGUS to do not realizing both Kun and Malgus are being played against each other by Vader and Traya.

 

And while they all admitedly have ego we both know that it is cannon fact they knew Kun and spoke highly of him. Every sith spoke highly of Kun. Thats the problem, they know he is strong. Vader is the least arogant of the bunch here. While yes he thinks he is hot stuff, he knows that is in part because of his ability to manipulate people into doing what he wants whether they know it or not. He knows his connection to the force is hampered.

 

Its not about their ego's its about who they know is the strongest BESIDES themselves. They all may think they are top dog, but there is one person they will see as the biggest threat besides themselves and for every single one of them.... that's Kun. They arent communicating... they are attacking, its just going to be Vader's natural nature to play Malgus and Traya against Kun. A tactic he wields with practiced ease. Malgus once on some one isnt going to get off and besides himself he will know Kun to be top dog other then himself thus tunnel Vission. Traya is oportunistic, Vader pitting Malgus against Kun and Malgus essentially unwittingly playing the fool while Vader preps, Traya will take the hint and the Opportunity to take out the one she veiws as the most deadly and possibly take out Malgus as well. 2 for 1 special.

 

 

Again I am not sure what you are refering to. Are you refering to the blasts? in which case we are going to be more specific. Again as far as I am aware Wolf already debunked blasts that can do massive damage to durasteel and what not by the fact that everytime he did so was either Dark side nexus or Gaunlet enhancing his powers. Just cus he does so when his powers are enhanced consistantly doesnt mean he can do so with out his powers enhanced. That just means we can tell what he can do with his powers enhanced. Further more he didnt use these blasts though he would assumed have enough time to do so in several of his duels, suggesting as beni said it would take him time to gather his energies for such blasts, enough time that ANY ONE can interupt him and in a meat grinder like this it means those blasts arent even going to come into play.

 

Just like I doubt Malgus's Maelstrom will come into play.

 

Your overstating Malgus' tunnel vision problems. In Deceived, yes he tunneled Satele, but only because she was the only Jedi in his vicinity. I seriously doubt Malgus will tunnel vision anyone for an extended period of time in a small arena type setting. Plus, why wouldn't Malgus use Force Maelstrom?

[Aurbere]

Your overstating Malgus' tunnel vision problems. In Deceived, yes he tunneled Satele, but only because she was the only Jedi in his vicinity. I seriously doubt Malgus will tunnel vision anyone for an extended period of time in a small arena type setting. Plus, why wouldn't Malgus use Force Maelstrom?

 

He fought Ven Zallow in Deceived, and, yes, he did display a degree of tunnel vision.

[ShadowMudkip]

He fought Ven Zallow in Deceived, and, yes, he did display a degree of tunnel vision.

 

I never said Malgus didn't have any tunnel vision, just that he doesn't have it as bad as is being pointed out. But yea Malgus got bad tunnel vision during the Sacking of Coruscant.

[Aurbere]

I never said Malgus didn't have any tunnel vision, just that he doesn't have it as bad as is being pointed out. But yea Malgus got bad tunnel vision during the Sacking of Coruscant.

 

I honestly don't believe it to be a major factor in this battle. In fact, his experience with chaotic battlefields should serve him well here.

[LadyKulvax]

Since when does Kun tunnel vision again? Ulic tried to play off tunnel vision, attacking him with lightsaber and pillar at the same time, Kun blocked both effortlessly.

 

How does environment go to Vader? Kun can fly and a massive dome structure like this is perfect for his ludicrously fast style, his Ataru will love the environment and more to the point, any time he is in trouble he can easily regroup and advance again whenever he likes.

 

Malgus is another contender for environment as his Force Maelstrom is perfect for this arena.

 

Vader isn't the most cunning here, Kun knows when it's time to back off or go all in, hence literally facepalming when Ulic took the Mandalorians and Krath to invade Coruscant.

 

Malgus is cunning but over-confident and Traya is by a mile the smartest one here.

 

Lethality has to be between Traya and Kun as they are the ones with the most lethal techniques which both Vader and Malgus will have a tough time of countering, but I would give it to Kun as we know for a fact that he is immune to Force Drain whereas Traya's ability to defend against Force Blast is guesswork.

 

I think the survivability factor here is too close to call, though I would say Kun and Traya's ability to heal themselves permanently instead of just sustaining themselves is far more efficient.

 

This is nowhere near as clear cut as you would like to believe Tune.

[Beniboybling]

Also I still don't understand where people are getting this happy tree friends grouping up mentality from, Vader is a Rule of Two Sith Lord who wants to rule the galaxy and any force user he comes across he either fashions into an apprentice or just kills them, Malgus wants to be Emperor, free of Sith politics and Traya is well known for using others to her own ends, neither Vader or Malgus are stupid enough to trust her nor do they have reason to.

 

These aren't Jedi, they are competing Dark Lords of the Sith.

You answered your own question right there. Traya is a manipulator and she all to often has others do her dirty work for her. This battle in which frankly she is outclassed by both Vader and Kun and has little chance of defeating them on her own, especially when it becomes clear they are immune to her draining powers, is going to end up using them against each other by maneuvering Vader into fighting Kun.

 

This is pretty simple to do, she takes herself out the picture with invisibility and then attacks and takes Malgus out of the picture, Vader at this point is probably already gunning for Kun and will continue to do so.

 

And in that instance Traya can easily bombard Kun from a far without getting in Vader's way. And Vader, who knows he'll need all the advantages he can get to defeat Kun, isn't likely to stop her helping him win.

 

P.S. As a relative unknown however, I doubt anyone will know of her particular exploits.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

How does environment go to Vader? Kun can fly and a massive dome structure like this is perfect for his ludicrously fast style, his Ataru will love the environment and more to the point, any time he is in trouble he can easily regroup and advance again whenever he likes.

Force Flight is all well and good, but not exactly something you can apply in a lightsaber duel, which:

 

To use this Force power took a great deal of concentration.

 

--Wookieepedia

 

Vader can easily chain a Force-based attack into his lightsaber sequence, while still fighting.

 

And of course while levitated, Exar Kun will be quite vulnerable, effectively making himself a big target in the sky - one aimed Force Push will send him crashing down - especially if he attempts it in conjunction with an attack.

 

Even if Exar Kun is at a distance, Vader can still hit him by throwing up a dust storm while simultaneously pelting him with rocks, bones, loose rubble etc. he'll be mometarily blinded and stunned and before he can react the objects will impact. Ultimately though this ability to manipulate the environment is most useful as an interrupt for Kun's sorcery.

 

And even still, he can manipulate the environment better than any one else, nor is he at any disadvantages.

 

P.S. I don't think falling back to recuperate will be all that easy in a brawl, someone else will just attack him, especially likely if Traya decides to blast him from afar, he won't get a chance at reprieve in this battle.

[LadyKulvax]

You answered your own question right there. Traya is a manipulator and she all to often has others do her dirty work for her. This battle in which frankly she is outclassed by both Vader and Kun and has little chance of defeating them on her own, especially when it becomes clear they are immune to her draining powers, is going to end up using them against each other by maneuvering Vader into fighting Kun.

 

This is pretty simple to do, she takes herself out the picture with invisibility and then attacks and takes Malgus out of the picture, Vader at this point is probably already gunning for Kun and will continue to do so.

 

And in that instance Traya can easily bombard Kun from a far without getting in Vader's way. And Vader, who knows he'll need all the advantages he can get to defeat Kun, isn't likely to stop her helping him win.

 

P.S. As a relative unknown however, I doubt anyone will know of her particular exploits.

 

that is smart... until Vader turns his attention on her and she gets killed as well.... the flaw in your argument is that Traya wouldn't think through the steps ahead and notice as soon as it is just the two of them she gets stomped.

 

She is in this to win it, if she does anything she just waits till they have both seriously injured each other, one goes for the kill and then goes in herself whilst the 'winner' is distracted killing the other, this is her best chance to win be it either Vader or Kun, because her remaining opponent will have almost definitely thrown in all they had.

 

Traya gets to sit on the sidelines whilst the other two wreck each other, once a victor stands alone she goes all in against her now likely exhausted and expended opponent which will probably be Kun, and with the element of surprise, it depends on if he gets a reprieve he may get his rage mode and win, if he doesn't she has a good chance of killing him.