Congratulations, Bioware, you´ve managed to screw Concealment up beyond redemption.

[snave]

Pretty sure it's always had an ICD, at least as long as I can remember and weirdly I find myself having more TA's than before but subjective play is subjective.

 

It's probably due to me spamming laceration all the time that's giving me the impression of more TA.

[Maxajax]

Pretty sure it's always had an ICD, at least as long as I can remember and weirdly I find myself having more TA's than before but subjective play is subjective.

 

It's probably due to me spamming laceration all the time that's giving me the impression of more TA.

 

So you feel you have more TA, I feel I have Less TA, and the 5 preceding posters keep citing sources with numbers in them.

 

I guess if we use Evasion + Cloaking Screen + Acid Blade + Hidden Strike when we run out of TA, we'll be fine, right?

[Cordorian]

Hang on, did you just label Hidden Strike - Explosive Probe - Shiv - Debilitate - Backstab - Laceratespam as "How not to play concealment"?

 

I find that interesting for the following reasons:

1, it kills things extremely fast.

2, Every single high-end Conc Oper uses that routine on the Progenitor.

3, Snave can be seen using it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TiKjpx77SA&feature=youtu.be meaning that the high end opers on his server use it too.

 

Or were you referring to your own paragraph?

How about not spamming post but actually reading them... it is a bit annoying if you have to explain everything multiple times. Ofc i was referring to my paragraph. And i clearly wrote that.

[Adovir]

 

What you can't do is accuse me of being a bad player. When you beat a 2.7 Vengeance Jug wearing the new ranked gear + augs while using 2.7 concealment and wearing your old Conqueror mods gear + augs, then you can lecture me. Alternatively I will accept a video of you killing a Tank Spec Assa within 15 seconds. One that plays properly.

 

So do you have vids of that your self? Also I stopped playing my op and i dont intend on playing it for a while bc ive played it since launch so i need a long break from it. I've become so bored with most all of my classes the only one I care to play ATM is my commando

[Maxajax]

So do you have vids of that your self? Also I stopped playing my op and i dont intend on playing it for a while bc ive played it since launch so i need a long break from it. I've become so bored with most all of my classes the only one I care to play ATM is my commando

 

No, I consider recording naming and shaming. If I did start recording stuff like Snave does, I'd have to edit the footage to doctor out the names, otherwise people from my server might get upset. I'm personally happy enough showing off my skills to myself, although your attempt at mockery makes it very tempting to go figure out how this Twitch.tv thing actually works.

[zohawn]

No, I consider recording naming and shaming. If I did start recording stuff like Snave does, I'd have to edit the footage to doctor out the names, otherwise people from my server might get upset. I'm personally happy enough showing off my skills to myself, although your attempt at mockery makes it very tempting to go figure out how this Twitch.tv thing actually works.

 

 

enemies that arent there, bro.

[DOOMOCTAGON]

Seriously it's not that bad. People still freak out and get confused and use a stun break immediately except now they have used on something that builds no resolve. Now you get the full debilitate, full sever tendon, and even then full flash bang and still have not given them full resolve. A skilled player can definitely counter the opener better but that's like 5% of the population lol. I always felt retarded for opening on people with full resolve too but now I can still get benefit out of it. TBH I miss putting people on their face but for the good players I'd say operatives got a buff.

[RaulTheConquerer]

I am a returning player who just subbed and I agree with OP. I won't bother pulling punches. What game wreckers at bioware have done is change Operative beyond recognition.

 

What is hidden strike that no longer knocks down an opponent but just roots? Its an insta-knockback and root applied to myself via sniper OR an insta force push where I am the one who must get up from a knockdown.

Lets not forget this also happened in conjunction with an orbital strike nerf. Operative is the only real reason i came back and already I think there's no point in keeping this sub. Terrible changes that affect effectiveness, play style and the fun.

Complete and utter horse hockey. What are you all doing in your offices? Ridiculous nerf to a class that was always a step behind Assassin. Now i'm convinced of Devs confusion.

Edited July 14, 2014 by RaulTheConquerer

[Adovir]

I am a returning player who just subbed and I agree with OP. I won't bother pulling punches. What game wreckers at bioware have done is change Operative beyond recognition.

 

What is hidden strike that no longer knocks down an opponent but just roots? Its an insta-knockback and root applied to myself via sniper OR an insta force push where I am the one who must get up from a knockdown.

Lets not forget this also happened in conjunction with an orbital strike nerf. Operative is the only real reason i came back and already I think there's no point in keeping this sub. Terrible changes that affect effectiveness, play style and the fun.

Complete and utter horse hockey. What are you all doing in your offices? Ridiculous nerf to a class that was always a step behind Assassin. Now i'm convinced of Devs confusion.

 

You're Beating more at a dead horse man. It's a shame we lost our KD but if you're that dependent on it then you're not all that great a player to begin with. You can still be successful with an operative it just takes a lot of skill. There is absolutely no class an operative can not kill, all it takes is just to manage your CDs and know when to int or stealth out and a lot of finess, if you're not willing to go through and embrace the grind that is the operative then here is the door and i bid you a farewell. A game needs a top and bottom and we're right down there at the bottom will we ever see the middle or top again? Idk but if you're not willing to be the bottom then you don't deserve to ever see the top

[RaulTheConquerer]

You're Beating more at a dead horse man. It's a shame we lost our KD but if you're that dependent on it then you're not all that great a player to begin with. You can still be successful with an operative it just takes a lot of skill. There is absolutely no class an operative can not kill, all it takes is just to manage your CDs and know when to int or stealth out and a lot of finess, if you're not willing to go through and embrace the grind that is the operative then here is the door and i bid you a farewell. A game needs a top and bottom and we're right down there at the bottom will we ever see the middle or top again? Idk but if you're not willing to be the bottom then you don't deserve to ever see the top

 

Yeah, i expected someone like you would turn up. Something else i noticed upon return was the terrible server population numbers. Funny how individuals like you hang around telling everyone," There's the door ",then cry "Please Queue for Wz's!, "when there are tumbleweeds blowing by. Soon you may get exactly what you want. Phase 2 of operation Server shutdown.

Dependent upon a bread and butter opener? That's how it was designed from the start. Or hadn't you noticed?

No class an operative cannot kill? You seriously oversimplify. "No afk player or player with a malfunctioning mouse an operative cannot kill". There. fixed. This is comparative and Operative simply doesn't measure up anymore in performance, or in style. And who are you to tell me what i deserve? I won't even get into mud slinging with you. This response of yours to another community member has already revealed what you are. Good day Sir.

Edited July 14, 2014 by RaulTheConquerer

[snave]

Yeah, i expected someone like you would turn up. Something else i noticed upon return was the terrible server population numbers. Funny how individuals like you hang around telling everyone," There's the door ",then cry "Please Queue for Wz's!, "when there are tumbleweeds blowing by. Soon you may get exactly what you want. Phase 2 of operation Server shutdown.

Dependent upon a bread and butter opener? That's how it was designed from the start. Or hadn't you noticed?

No class an operative cannot kill? You seriously oversimplify. "No afk player or player with a malfunctioning mouse an operative cannot kill". There. fixed. This is comparative and Operative simply doesn't measure up anymore in performance, or in style. And who are you to tell me what i deserve? I won't even get into mud slinging with you. This response of yours to another community member has already revealed what you are. Good day Sir.

 

Not really sure why you're getting so upset by his response, there are valid points in his post.

 

I'm not sure how long you've been away for but operatives are in the best state right now that they've been in since the great nerf of 1.2

 

Recently we've received several buffs including:

 

15% more damage to Hidden Strike

30% surge bonus to Lacerate

Guaranteed TA refresh on Lacerate

30% AOE damage reduction

20% on demand damage reduction

 

We've also received a couple of sideways nerfs on some abilities like roll for example. While I agree that the removal of the knockdown from Hidden Strike was a bad idea if you're suddenly having problems killing people because you no longer have 1.5s stun at the start then the problem is you, not the class.

 

You've just returned so maybe give it some time for you to get your "mojo" back, try watching some streams / videos to see how people are playing and adjust accordingly

 

Feel free to ask any specific questions you might have about gear / spec / rotation, be happy to help out where I can.

[Cordorian]

Yeah, i expected someone like you would turn up. Something else i noticed upon return was the terrible server population numbers. Funny how individuals like you hang around telling everyone," There's the door ",then cry "Please Queue for Wz's!, "when there are tumbleweeds blowing by. Soon you may get exactly what you want. Phase 2 of operation Server shutdown.

Dependent upon a bread and butter opener? That's how it was designed from the start. Or hadn't you noticed?

No class an operative cannot kill? You seriously oversimplify. "No afk player or player with a malfunctioning mouse an operative cannot kill". There. fixed. This is comparative and Operative simply doesn't measure up anymore in performance, or in style. And who are you to tell me what i deserve? I won't even get into mud slinging with you. This response of yours to another community member has already revealed what you are. Good day Sir.

 

There hardly was anyone playing operative as concealment, finding that the 2.7 change to jarring strike was a good idea, but it doesn't make the spec useless. In fact the 2.6 brought laceration into play and made us less reliant on the opener. What Adovir said you can kill any class, (maybe not any player, but there arent so many demi gods left, that play their classes to max potential anyway) if you do it right, stun locking doesnt work anymore, but the changes to exfiltrate finally gave us a reliable gap closer and kiting tool, energy management got way easier and we even got some defensive buffs in the last patch, plus they added an interrupt to jarring strike, to give it a bit more utility again. Yes, it plays differently now, but it is possible to adapt and being capable of doing an operatives job.

And yes the class is still rather at the top, but heck it has always been like that. And yes the removal of an iconic effect hurts but in same ways they are in a much better place than they were around this time last year.

 

You said something about the snipers knockback root.... if that troubles you as an operative it is l2p or better l2cleanse&roll. Snipers are still easy prey for a mildly skilled concealment operative.

Btw on the bright side, the removal of the knowdown made withbarring a non issue, which helps a lot when you are attacking with another stealher. And you would believe how many people use their breaker on the root

[johnatters]

You're Beating more at a dead horse man. It's a shame we lost our KD but if you're that dependent on it then you're not all that great a player to begin with. You can still be successful with an operative it just takes a lot of skill. There is absolutely no class an operative can not kill, all it takes is just to manage your CDs and know when to int or stealth out and a lot of finess, if you're not willing to go through and embrace the grind that is the operative then here is the door and i bid you a farewell. A game needs a top and bottom and we're right down there at the bottom will we ever see the middle or top again? Idk but if you're not willing to be the bottom then you don't deserve to ever see the top

 

Dude's right, this is almost a troll response, whether it has good points or not. And "No class an operative can't kill", is simply not true. A skilled Deception Assassin will wipe the floor with you. And inb4 "Yeah well I 1 v 1 sins all the time", make note of the word "skilled", the proportion of skilled sins to the total number of sins out there is low.

 

And this "you have to play the lows to deserve to play the highs". LOL. This is a video game, that we (most of us) PAY TO PLAY. This almost sounds like Stockholm Syndrome, THE DEVS WILL REWARD ME IF I LET THEM PUNISH ME LAWL. It's a game, not a life lesson.

[Adovir]

Yeah, i expected someone like you would turn up. Something else i noticed upon return was the terrible server population numbers. Funny how individuals like you hang around telling everyone," There's the door ",then cry "Please Queue for Wz's!, "when there are tumbleweeds blowing by.

really where did i say that? because i really dont remember saying that in my post any where, take your time finding it and showing it to me. I personally dont have this problem because im a little more patient than other people, takes more than 2 minuets for a warzone que, what ever the server population is light when that happens takes me less than a minuet to get into a warzone when its standard on ToFN. so dont put words in my mouth because then youre just wrong at that point.

 

Soon you may get exactly what you want. Phase 2 of operation Server shutdown.

 

Again are you just assuming this or did i actually post this in my reply? If its the former then i must inform you that you sir are wrong. Also PS server shut downs, remember when we had 20 different servers that were all unused, thats when pvp and pve was all messed up because you couldnt get a que unless you were on the fatman. so what did swtor do? they closed down those servers and consolidated them so players could enjoy the game more, its not a acceptance of defeat but more hey lets do something that our players have asked for.

 

Dependent upon a bread and butter opener? That's how it was designed from the start. Or hadn't you noticed?

Oh **** really i havent noticed, because that alpha opener has changed quite a few times. It was different when it was a 3 second stun It changed when they made it a 1.5 seconds stun and it changed when the stun was removed, this is an MMO, things change you have to adapt. If you want to bring in your opening rotation to every situation and wonder why its not going to work then go right ahead, if you dont change or adapt to the changes then youll never find the class enjoyable.

 

No class an operative cannot kill? You seriously oversimplify. "No afk player or player with a malfunctioning mouse an operative cannot kill". There. fixed. This is comparative and Operative simply doesn't measure up anymore in performance, or in style.

 

We have a decent bag of tricks we can dip into, use them right and you can achieve at a higher level. Like i said in my post you need alot of finesse to play the class, which inherently means you need alot of skill because you need to know how to use them correctly. Just because you your self are not the greatest so you cant do it doesnt mean others in cant.

 

And who are you to tell me what i deserve? I won't even get into mud slinging with you. This response of yours to another community member has already revealed what you are. Good day Sir.

Im telling you what i believe about classes in general because, there are 8 advance classes with 3 specs so 24 total specs and 18 total dps specs. since there is more than 1 dps class in the game there is inherently going to be the number one dps for pvp and then a real reality is that there is going to be a class that is number 18, and guess what we're some where near number 18 because off the top of my head, lightning sorcs, rage in general and pyro mercs arent all that hard to beat because for the first and third we can interrupt them all day and rage hasnt been all that good in fighting a 1v1 IMO. oh and like someone said before snipers are fairly easy to kill as an operative, even the god of roll bangs Cryyc will die to an operative(or at the time a scoundrel:p).

 

Also really what does my previous post say about me, or reveal about me? please enlighten me i would love to hear this.

 

Dude's right, this is almost a troll response, whether it has good points or not. And "No class an operative can't kill", is simply not true. A skilled Deception Assassin will wipe the floor with you. And inb4 "Yeah well I 1 v 1 sins all the time", make note of the word "skilled", the proportion of skilled sins to the total number of sins out there is low.

So one class makes the class as a whole terrible? i know that there are other classes that can "wipe the floor" with us but like i said before it takes a certain level of skill to be very good on an operative, it takes considerably less skill for an assassin so to beat an assassin you have to be on your A game. I used to run with TOFN's evolix and i had a general idea of how he played his class so when i caught him off guard on his assassin, exilove(the not fully minmaxed brut but equal more or less to my scoundrel), it was a mix of luck and skill that got me to win the fight, discharge not critting and getting a lucky guess with my evasion so his maul would miss yea ill take it to win the fight.

 

And this "you have to play the lows to deserve to play the highs". LOL. This is a video game, that we (most of us) PAY TO PLAY. This almost sounds like Stockholm Syndrome, THE DEVS WILL REWARD ME IF I LET THEM PUNISH ME LAWL. It's a game, not a life lesson.

 

actually i do pay for this game out of my own pocket as a highschool student, tutor, baby sitter and mcdonalds cashier, so lets stop that argument right there.

 

Stockholm's? no i dont have it, like i previously stated if you are not willing to be at the bottom for a time you shouldnt be allowed to see the top, those are my beliefs right there. I remember back before 1.2 when we were originally deemed unvialbe, when we quite literally 2 shot people for a good few months we were at the top and now we have been going lower and lower down the totem pole, we havent hit the bottom just yet because there are other classes that really arent all that good either but we are close. yes it is a game but you can take a bit from it something like patients is a virtue and if you dont like something pursue better and greener pastures are somethings i can think of right now. Dont want to work hard? play an assassin or a jug or a madness sorc or a pyro PT its not all that hard to get to 55. Am i a troll, well you think so so youre entitled to your opinion there, or maybe i am someone who believes in something and said it to another person and you didnt agree with it. i said in some other thread somewhere that if you are going to play an operative you need to learn to adapt to survive and if youre not willing then get out because this class doesnt need you, and am i a troll because of that?

[johnatters]

You said this.

There is absolutely no class an operative can not kill.

 

Then you said this.

i know that there are other classes that can "wipe the floor" with us.

 

You also said this.

So one class makes the class as a whole terrible?

 

And this.

there are 8 advance classes with 3 specs so 24 total specs and 18 total dps specs. since there is more than 1 dps class in the game there is inherently going to be the number one dps for pvp and then a real reality is that there is going to be a class that is number 18, and guess what we're some where near number 18.

 

 

Also really what does my previous post say about me, or reveal about me? please enlighten me i would love to hear this.

 

Lets not actually get into personal jabs, hmmm?

 

actually i do pay for this game out of my own pocket as a highschool student, tutor, baby sitter and mcdonalds cashier, so lets stop that argument right there.

 

I think I might not have made this one clear, that was a reference to people who are f2p or pref. I assure you mate, I don't care if you work at McDonalds.

 

Stockholm's? no i dont have it, like i previously stated if you are not willing to be at the bottom for a time you shouldnt be allowed to see the top, those are my beliefs right there. I remember back before 1.2 when we were originally deemed unvialbe, when we quite literally 2 shot people for a good few months we were at the top and now we have been going lower and lower down the totem pole, we havent hit the bottom just yet because there are other classes that really arent all that good either but we are close. yes it is a game but you can take a bit from it something like patients is a virtue and if you dont like something pursue better and greener pastures are somethings i can think of right now. Dont want to work hard? play an assassin or a jug or a madness sorc or a pyro PT its not all that hard to get to 55. Am i a troll, well you think so so youre entitled to your opinion there, or maybe i am someone who believes in something and said it to another person and you didnt agree with it. i said in some other thread somewhere that if you are going to play an operative you need to learn to adapt to survive and if youre not willing then get out because this class doesnt need you, and am i a troll because of that?

 

Oh boy, you fluff more than lethality. Again, I'm sure your moral integrity stands you well in real life, but you shouldn't have to go through lows to play highs in a video game. And for the record, playing an assassin or a jugg, and actually playing it 'well', is far more complicated than a concealment operative. Speaking about the advanced class itself, not player vs. player.

 

I have no idea who these European peoples are.

 

I'll just point out for the record that I too have played an operative/scoundrel since the good old days, that it is still my main, and all that jazz. I'll echo something the gosh darned Snave said at least once, "What I enjoy about the concealment operative is that if I beat you, I know that I out played you, not my class. The psychological effect that has, is why I play this class". Paraphrasing, of course.

 

I'm 100% still with the class, though I actually play scrapper scoundrel more these days. But let's not pretend it's something it's not. Good concealment operatives are dangerous because the player is skillful, if you put that player into a well rounded class, you tell me honestly, that they wouldn't be even better. When we can compete in ranked (as DPS), then we can talk. Until then, WE ARE LIONS (in regs).

[Haystak]

You're Beating more at a dead horse man. It's a shame we lost our KD but if you're that dependent on it then you're not all that great a player to begin with. You can still be successful with an operative it just takes a lot of skill. There is absolutely no class an operative can not kill, all it takes is just to manage your CDs and know when to int or stealth out and a lot of finess, if you're not willing to go through and embrace the grind that is the operative then here is the door and i bid you a farewell. A game needs a top and bottom and we're right down there at the bottom will we ever see the middle or top again? Idk but if you're not willing to be the bottom then you don't deserve to ever see the top

 

In the defence of DPS operatives/scoundrels who are disapointed with the class i think this needs to be said, we were only viable for competetive play in the very early stages of the game, before they nerfed "everything" that increased burst. Even then, merc healers could out heal our damage more often than not, and sin/shadow tank hybrids wrecked us like no ones business, so before you can say " enjoy the highs and endure the lows" realize that dps scouperatives never really got the high's that you mention. Also the suck it up or leave attitude isnt really going to help, their are only a handful of successful scouperatives left on this game, no need to put more nails into the coffin.

 

Would have more but works proxy is blocking a lot of stuff

Edited July 14, 2014 by Haystak

[Adovir]

yes i did say that there is no class that we cant kill because there isnt. One of the things i dont like about responding over computers is that i cant clearly express what im saying because i cant put the entasis on what im saying clearly. when i said "wipe the floor with us" i mean that there are classes that can beat us fairly easily, but, that doesnt mean we can not kill them, because we can infact kill that class. Also when i said "So one class makes the class as a whole terrible"? just because class X has a hard time with class Y doesnt mean that class X cant kill Y or that class X is completely useless, it just has a hard time and more often than not you are going to lose but you still can win. Lastly all im saying is that not every class can be top dog in pvp and that there has to be a bottom and a top, some classes are better for pvp and such. Most of the classes we call OP for pvp right now have had their time at the bottom and are now at the top, but soon another class will come and be buffed in a way which makes it more favorable than one of these classes so they go from number 1 to number 2. Those two people i names also Cryyc was the number 1 solo ranked pvper for a while i havent checked in for ever(only checked because i wanted to know the hype about the guy) and evolix is supposed to be one of the best assassins in the game so i took two of the most well known/skilled players i know ive beaten to prove that an operative can kill any class. I took care to think of "Skilled" players because you specifically said "Skilled" in your post above

[johnatters]

yes i did say that there is no class that we cant kill because there isnt. One of the things i dont like about responding over computers is that i cant clearly express what im saying because i cant put the entasis on what im saying clearly. when i said "wipe the floor with us" i mean that there are classes that can beat us fairly easily, but, that doesnt mean we can not kill them, because we can infact kill that class. Also when i said "So one class makes the class as a whole terrible"? just because class X has a hard time with class Y doesnt mean that class X cant kill Y or that class X is completely useless, it just has a hard time and more often than not you are going to lose but you still can win. Lastly all im saying is that not every class can be top dog in pvp and that there has to be a bottom and a top, some classes are better for pvp and such. Most of the classes we call OP for pvp right now have had their time at the bottom and are now at the top, but soon another class will come and be buffed in a way which makes it more favorable than one of these classes so they go from number 1 to number 2. Those two people i names also Cryyc was the number 1 solo ranked pvper for a while i havent checked in for ever(only checked because i wanted to know the hype about the guy) and evolix is supposed to be one of the best assassins in the game so i took two of the most well known/skilled players i know ive beaten to prove that an operative can kill any class. I took care to think of "Skilled" players because you specifically said "Skilled" in your post above

 

 

Ok, L2Paragraph.

 

Also, look up class balance. You're justifying BW's failing attempts.

 

Your posts are so full of your desperate need to justify the class, you can't even put together a coherent argument for it.

 

just because class X has a hard time with class Y doesnt mean that class X cant kill Y or that class X is completely useless, it just has a hard time and more often than not you are going to lose but you still can win.

 

I actually laughed out loud when I read this. GG.

 

Seriously though, I do enjoy how positive you always try to be about the class, and I do appreciate you know the class well. But you can admit that we're flawed and still play and enjoy it.... It's ok to admit it... need a hug?

 

Essentially what you're saying is, in fact no, I have no idea what you're actually trying to say. Are you admitting the class is broken or not? If so, we all agree and we can stop posting. If not, I can't help you anyway, and I'm stopping posting.

[Cordorian]

 

Oh boy, you fluff more than lethality. Again, I'm sure your moral integrity stands you well in real life, but you shouldn't have to go through lows to play highs in a video game. And for the record, playing an assassin or a jugg, and actually playing it 'well', is far more complicated than a concealment operative. Speaking about the advanced class itself, not player vs. player.

 

I have no idea who these European peoples are.

 

I'll just point out for the record that I too have played an operative/scoundrel since the good old days, that it is still my main, and all that jazz. I'll echo something the gosh darned Snave said at least once, "What I enjoy about the concealment operative is that if I beat you, I know that I out played you, not my class. The psychological effect that has, is why I play this class". Paraphrasing, of course.

 

I'm 100% still with the class, though I actually play scrapper scoundrel more these days. But let's not pretend it's something it's not. Good concealment operatives are dangerous because the player is skillful, if you put that player into a well rounded class, you tell me honestly, that they wouldn't be even better. When we can compete in ranked (as DPS), then we can talk. Until then, WE ARE LIONS (in regs).

 

Seriously Vengence is one of the easiest spec in game now, it is borderline boring, and in its state now one of the most forgiving spec the game has. Smash never really was rocket science, so dont get the point about juggs. Assassins well yeah, there is some juice to deception rotationally, but you can get the hang of the basics quickly and get way better results compared to concealment.

 

Concealment is relatively boring rotationally now, but the thrill always came from trying to stay alive, since its defense are still underwelming.

As in the state of the game it is easier to get better results on juggs and assassin compared to dps operative.

 

The Eximen was on Pot5 as well, but it doesnt matter, he is generally considered good, despite having a kind of interesting personality.

 

Now the last part. This Thread is about the removal of the KD... and again nobody playing the class wanted that to happen (at least not in his sane mind)... but when you speak about what now is ranked the KD is about the most useless thing you can imagine. For hard switches it only filled unnecessary resolve and had no additional benefit. If the concealment operative wasnt immediately burnt we would actually be quite useful in there, the 30s CD on hard stun, the possibilty to cleanse operative flashs and yeah quite some serious burst, while still offering good sustained damage (a rare combination in this game). If the survivability wasnt that meh, we could have a solid spot in group ranked.... but ranked is dead anyway.

 

@Haystak

I think atm there are more DPS scoundrel and operative in game since a long time. The class is still no where it should be. But we are clearly no longer worst in slot. I know you edited your post but just one thing.

 

The assassin 10k mauls arent as frequent as they are often made on this forum. Even with the force crits buffing melee crits it only happens once and so often. Assassin have more control over their burst, sure, but this effectively has and a half minute cooldown and it can completely go wrong. Sure Deception is the better PvP spec, but i dont think there is a point in focusing on assassins too much. Assassin game play is quite dissimilar concealments if you look at it. And they have quite different strength and weaknesses. Our Burst is more dependent on RNG and we are more dependent on force/tech attacks (while assassin have quite some stuff that is melee), but the main is remains that we just melt too easily.

[Haystak]

Ok, L2Paragraph.

 

Also, look up class balance. You're justifying BW's failing attempts.

 

Your posts are so full of your desperate need to justify the class, you can't even put together a coherent argument for it.

 

 

 

I actually laughed out loud when I read this. GG.

 

Seriously though, I do enjoy how positive you always try to be about the class, and I do appreciate you know the class well. But you can admit that we're flawed and still play and enjoy it.... It's ok to admit it... need a hug?

 

Essentially what you're saying is, in fact no, I have no idea what you're actually trying to say. Are you admitting the class is broken or not? If so, we all agree and we can stop posting. If not, I can't help you anyway, and I'm stopping posting.

 

You and adovir are pretty much of the same mind as far as the class goes. Im basing this off of earlier posts i have seen of his.

 

I believe what hes trying to say though, is to keep your negativity down, as you sound like an agnst ridden teen.

 

You can make valid arguments without insulting everyone who differs in opinion.

 

Dont be that guy.

[Haystak]

@Haystak

I think atm there are more DPS scoundrel and operative in game since a long time. The class is still no where it should be. But we are clearly no longer worst in slot. I know you edited your post but just one thing.

 

The assassin 10k mauls arent as frequent as they are often made on this forum. Even with the force crits buffing melee crits it only happens once and so often. Assassin have more control over their burst, sure, but this effectively has and a half minute cooldown and it can completely go wrong. Sure Deception is the better PvP spec, but i dont think there is a point in focusing on assassins too much. Assassin game play is quite dissimilar concealments if you look at it. And they have quite different strength and weaknesses. Our Burst is more dependent on RNG and we are more dependent on force/tech attacks (while assassin have quite some stuff that is melee), but the main is remains that we just melt too easily.

 

Caught my rant eh. I tried editing for clarity but the proxy kept going ******* and failed to post, so I just deleted it, and kept the original paragraph.

 

Mostly what I was trying to hint at, is that scrapper doesnt really feel like a burst class any more. Yeah you got some hard hitters, but when other classes have harder hitting abilities(im talking by like 20 to 30% harder), and your whole rotation can be defeated by a cleanse, whats the point of even bringing it. Scrapper does not fill any role in warzones, or arenas, Dirty Fighting does not fill any roles in warzones or arenas. We make decent node gaurds, and smuggle is probably one of the best team utilities you can use to take an off node with a friend. Outside of those two things however, scrappers and dirty fighting are ill equipped to excel in combat. Only class who I think has it worse are sentinels, but you cant feel to bad for them, they had smash for almost 2 years.

 

Scrapper isnt an alpha burst class anymore, took me a bit to realize that, but if it isnt alpha burst then its sustained. Problem is we dont have the class mechanics to be sustained. Meanwhile abilities that would make scrappers a viable class in the sustained category are put on other ACs. This isnt just pvp though, its also in pve against bosses that have PBAoE abilities. granted all melee suffer. Scrappers seem to suffer worst of all when dealing with these boss mechanics(best example...dreadful entity, you might do half of what the next ranged dps does as your spending more time outside of the hitbox than in.)

[Cordorian]

Caught my rant eh. I tried editing for clarity but the proxy kept going ******* and failed to post, so I just deleted it, and kept the original paragraph.

 

Mostly what I was trying to hint at, is that scrapper doesnt really feel like a burst class any more. Yeah you got some hard hitters, but when other classes have harder hitting abilities(im talking by like 20 to 30% harder), and your whole rotation can be defeated by a cleanse, whats the point of even bringing it. Scrapper does not fill any role in warzones, or arenas, Dirty Fighting does not fill any roles in warzones or arenas. We make decent node gaurds, and smuggle is probably one of the best team utilities you can use to take an off node with a friend. Outside of those two things however, scrappers and dirty fighting are ill equipped to excel in combat. Only class who I think has it worse are sentinels, but you cant feel to bad for them, they had smash for almost 2 years.

 

Scrapper isnt an alpha burst class anymore, took me a bit to realize that, but if it isnt alpha burst then its sustained. Problem is we dont have the class mechanics to be sustained. Meanwhile abilities that would make scrappers a viable class in the sustained category are put on other ACs. This isnt just pvp though, its also in pve against bosses that have PBAoE abilities. granted all melee suffer. Scrappers seem to suffer worst of all when dealing with these boss mechanics(best example...dreadful entity, you might do half of what the next ranged dps does as your spending more time outside of the hitbox than in.)

 

Ranting is fine with me... and yeah there a lot of things wrong with the class, but in a way we have to be reasonable as well (not that i am saying you are not).

 

I dont think having burst and sustained does necessarily exclude each other.... carnage/combat actually has both, one of the burstiest specs in game, but still a really good sustained for that. and i think the current state of concealment is close to that. I think our rotation just became more spammy (and easier), but i think we can fairly say the burst potential despite still being hardly controllable, is higher than it was pre 2.6.

 

For PvE (which i havent done in any remotely serious sense in like 5 months), the situation is like similar to a marauder. You cant just really do all the end game pve content with just one spec. Some fights prefer Anni (tank and span), some carnage (burn stuff quickly) and some even call for rage ( AoE Adds down).

 

When I was still doing PvE there was just one thing blatantly obvious, some fight prefer lethality and some are classical concealment fight, (yes strangely i was allowed to DPS). Those fights with many adds where you eventualy have to tank some (yes that happens) there is no way concealment would work. Tank and Spank is concealment land for sure. And yeah this game doesnt really have many melee friendly fights, but as you said that affects all melee... actually vanguards and operative a bit less, then say assassins, maras and juggs, since we have some pseudo range to still have some up time.

 

I see what you mean, but i think the burst is still there (even better than it used to be for a long time), but the class feels really different now. We now have a gap closer that can actually be used without screwing up your energy management..

 

 

Is the situation fine, no absolutely it is not, but i dont think it is sensible to make is sound worse than it is.

[Adovir]

Is the class rough to play? yes.

Can you still achieve with the class? yes.

Can you achieve as highly as other classes? no.

Can you still beat other classes? yes.

Does it take alot of skill to beat other classes? Depends on the class and player but often yes.

Can you kill skilled players of other[top] Classes? yes.

Can other classes give us a hard time? yes.

Are we the worst spec in the game? no.

Is the class still fun? In my opinion yes.

Have i said that there are no flaws in the class? no i havent

Would i like a hug?..... from a random guy on the internet i dont know, no. From this chick in my history class that is a different story:p

[Cordorian]

Is the class rough to play? yes.

Can you still achieve with the class? yes.

Can you achieve as highly as other classes? no.

Can you still beat other classes? yes.

Does it take alot of skill to beat other classes? Depends on the class and player but often yes.

Can you kill skilled players of other[top] Classes? yes.

Can other classes give us a hard time? yes.

Are we the worst spec in the game? no.

Is the class still fun? In my opinion yes.

Have i said that there are no flaws in the class? no i havent

Would i like a hug?..... from a random guy on the internet i dont know, no. From this chick in my history class that is a different story:p

 

/hug

 

and yeah ^this

[Adovir]

Caught my rant eh. I tried editing for clarity but the proxy kept going ******* and failed to post, so I just deleted it, and kept the original paragraph. *snip snip*

 

I caught the rant too and you did make quite a few good points in it. i think the main thing that it kinda pointed out was that in the Xpac alot of classes had serious changes which made them very powerful or gave them moves which could be easily changed around to make them stronger while we did not. Honestly we have to wait until 3.0/next Xpac so we can get a new set of skills/ talents which will help us because that is what we need, right now we are only going to get bandaids when we need to get out the suturing kit.