Fix for Ion Railgun incoming in 2.7

[SammyGStatus]

So you deliberately derail a discussion by using ad hominem to compare people to nazis... and you think everyone else is oversensitive and trollish?

 

No, that's not how discussion works. Try again.

 

If you want people to read your message, make your message the most prominent part of your post -- don't bury it under a mountain of crap and expect people to pick through it for the gems.

 

You're so totally right!! OMG! My one statement was a total mountain of text. I compared YOUR opinion & ridicule of gunships to be the propoganda of calling GSs overpowered, when it clearly wasn't true. No, discussion works with free speech, and in your case, you use it to fill the forums with "OMG nerf GSs" in every message. This message that you wrote, trying to police, was a waste, and further derailment. When you're a moderator, you can tell me how I'm allowed to post. Till then, shhhhh

[Zoom_VI]

You're so totally right!! OMG! My one statement was a total mountain of text. I compared YOUR opinion & ridicule of gunships to be the propoganda of calling GSs overpowered, when it clearly wasn't true. No, discussion works with free speech, and in your case, you use it to fill the forums with "OMG nerf GSs" in every message. This message that you wrote, trying to police, was a waste, and further derailment. When you're a moderator, you can tell me how I'm allowed to post. Till then, shhhhh

 

Nobody is using any form of propaganda here.

Firstly propaganda only really works well with images, since images tend to stir the emotional right side of our brain. Wall of text like Arrmonddd likes to write engage the left portion of the brain which deals with logic and reasoning. The left side of the brain is not the side you want engaged if your trying to mount a propaganda campaign.

 

Now you seem to have been trying to call out the growing sense of "us vs them" that has been growing up between the dogfighter community and the gunship community. However calling out a individual on this is ridiculous since no one individual is actually trying to do such a thing. However human beings have natural tendency to split themselves into groups, where the groups tend to be irrationally biased towards their in-group. The fact that this is appearing now is no surprise at all, particularly since one's choice of class is a obvious dividing line. However calling out a individual on this is only going to exasperate the issue further.

 

Finally telling him to bug off because he is running around disagreeing with several people on balance, is downright bad. Dissent is a good thing, because dissent breeds moderation, without it the community would very quickly tend towards the very extreme edge of the spectrum.

 

Good now all you guys can shut about Nazis and go back to beating yourselves over the head with the same arguments that where going on back in 2.5.

[Zoom_VI]

Well guess I killed this thread. Pity it was actually getting kinda good.

[Beansoup]

Nobody is using any form of propaganda here.

Firstly propaganda only really works well with images, since images tend to stir the emotional right side of our brain. Wall of text like Arrmonddd likes to write engage the left portion of the brain which deals with logic and reasoning. The left side of the brain is not the side you want engaged if your trying to mount a propaganda campaign.

 

Now you seem to have been trying to call out the growing sense of "us vs them" that has been growing up between the dogfighter community and the gunship community. However calling out a individual on this is ridiculous since no one individual is actually trying to do such a thing. However human beings have natural tendency to split themselves into groups, where the groups tend to be irrationally biased towards their in-group. The fact that this is appearing now is no surprise at all, particularly since one's choice of class is a obvious dividing line. However calling out a individual on this is only going to exasperate the issue further.

 

Finally telling him to bug off because he is running around disagreeing with several people on balance, is downright bad. Dissent is a good thing, because dissent breeds moderation, without it the community would very quickly tend towards the very extreme edge of the spectrum.

 

Good now all you guys can shut about Nazis and go back to beating yourselves over the head with the same arguments that where going on back in 2.5.

 

Well spoken. Now, let's carry on with the issue at hand. Railguns.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Beansoup

[-Streven-]

I invoke Godwin's Law. Snipers lose.

[Pilgrim_Grey]

I haven't played enough to know if this change is having an effect in game. I haven't been put dead in the water so often, but I do seem to see fewer gunships... might be because we have a lot of 2xp people out there, and people trying out the newly available ships.

 

No matter what, I still think the tier 5 needs to be knocked down on the railgun... completely stopping energy regen for six seconds is ridiculous, even if the gunship won't necessarily drain half of your energy bars at the same time. Ion missiles do half of that regen debuff and they're siginificantly harder to apply, even with the missile break changes.

[SammyGStatus]

I haven't played enough to know if this change is having an effect in game. I haven't been put dead in the water so often, but I do seem to see fewer gunships... might be because we have a lot of 2xp people out there, and people trying out the newly available ships.

 

No matter what, I still think the tier 5 needs to be knocked down on the railgun... completely stopping energy regen for six seconds is ridiculous, even if the gunship won't necessarily drain half of your energy bars at the same time. Ion missiles do half of that regen debuff and they're siginificantly harder to apply, even with the missile break changes.

 

I need a way to stop a group of scouts coming at me, considering they're lethal to GSs in close range. That's the only insurance policy that I have to prevent that kinda issue when there are multiple bads on my side and 3 mastered Type 2s on my tail for the entire match. Scouts have the benefit of not needing as much coordination to fend off multiple attackers (because of your mobility, you can kite multiple attackers) whereas the gunship is screwed, and rather quickly at that.

[Zoom_VI]

I need a way to stop a group of scouts coming at me, considering they're lethal to GSs in close range. That's the only insurance policy that I have to prevent that kinda issue when there are multiple bads on my side and 3 mastered Type 2s on my tail for the entire match. Scouts have the benefit of not needing as much coordination to fend off multiple attackers (because of your mobility, you can kite multiple attackers) whereas the gunship is screwed, and rather quickly at that.

 

You do realize there is no such thing as being kitied by melee right?

[SammyGStatus]

You're chasing after me? You're being kited. When I call for a scout to kite, he knows to fly towards be and bring his followers in the range of my slug. That's all I meant

[Zoom_VI]

But we scouts just thinks your gunship looks cute. We just chase you so we can lub you, and hug you, and call you George.

 

Also no gunships don't need a way to get away from scouts , just like scouts don't need a way to negate bombers.

 

Welcome to Rock/Paper/Scissors balance, I'm paper, you're rock, and scissors is over there.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[Armonddd]

Welcome to Rock/Paper/Scissors balance, I'm paper, you're rock, and scissors is over there.

 

Eff that.

 

It's zero fun knowing you're hard countered by someone because you're playing a class you enjoy.

 

Ideally, all classes would have a realistic chance to counter every other, depending on skill and playstyle. Realistically, that kind of happens with scouts and strikes, but every other engagement does not.

 

This is honestly the worst part of GSF and what's making me play less and less (and I'll likely quit when my sub runs out in a few weeks).

[Zoom_VI]

Eff that.

 

It's zero fun knowing you're hard countered by someone because you're playing a class you enjoy.

 

Ideally, all classes would have a realistic chance to counter every other, depending on skill and playstyle. Realistically, that kind of happens with scouts and strikes, but every other engagement does not.

 

This is honestly the worst part of GSF and what's making me play less and less (and I'll likely quit when my sub runs out in a few weeks).

 

Yeah I don't like it either, but that's how the game was designed.

[Pilgrim_Grey]

What about this change suddenly reversed everything that was before 2.7? Energy drain wasn't keeping scouts off a gunships tail, it was tagging ship after ship from afar and setting them up for the kill shot. And that's not really any different from what can happen now.

 

If all that was making a gunship viable was being able to spam barrel roll and then distortion field, then there was even more of a balance issue for gunships than was suggested. Is it sensor dampening being weakened so much?

 

I dunno... I'm having a hard time believing gunships are so hurt now with this small of a change to ion. And I was chased all over the map by three scouts before 2.7 in a gunship, too, so I'm doubting it's just barrel roll... I'm really wondering what is distorting perspective this much, unless I'm missing some angle in here.

[Kuciwalker]

If all that was making a gunship viable was being able to spam barrel roll and then distortion field, then there was even more of a balance issue for gunships than was suggested. Is it sensor dampening being weakened so much?

 

Sensor dampening was basically never terribly useful because of the 15km limit. If the dampening nerf were accompanied by the removal of that limit, sensor components may actually be worth something, but I don't think that's really a good way to buff the GS (if someone is hitting you you should be able to target them).

[Lendul]

Eff that.

 

It's zero fun knowing you're hard countered by someone because you're playing a class you enjoy.

 

Ideally, all classes would have a realistic chance to counter every other, depending on skill and playstyle. Realistically, that kind of happens with scouts and strikes, but every other engagement does not.

 

This is honestly the worst part of GSF and what's making me play less and less (and I'll likely quit when my sub runs out in a few weeks).

To be fair you are the one pigeon-holing yourself.

[Armonddd]

To be fair you are the one pigeon-holing yourself.

 

...Yes. I'm pidgeon-holing myself by refusing to play unfun classes. That's definitely it.

[SammyGStatus]

I played a lot last night - mainly on Jung'Ma vs penumbral, then on TEH. The ion rail gun nerf isn't the main one in 2.7 - the BR Nerf is the one that hit GS pilots the most. I am a frequent target for focus, and after I blow my cool downs (including using what limited boost energy I have as a result of the nerf) I am now a sitting duck for a group of scouts / strikes who're missile locking me. Prior to the nerf, I could maneuver enough to break the locks without popping cool downs. Now, they're my only hope because I don't have the boost to be able to evade multiple opponents anymore. That, is more detrimental to my ions which still cripple.

 

I must say though that good piloting will still give you solid scores - I was being focused by tsukoyomi, isaacrooks, and one other person in a TDM. We lost 50-10, but I had 9 kills, 1 assist, and 4 deaths. I still was top in the match though for kills and damage. Removing the ability to survive doesn't make the GS less dangerous - it just makes them able to be killed where before it was pretty dang tough to take us down. I really don't mind the nerf (I do mind y boost usage though lol). Ions = not much changed except for those who exploited ions pre-2.7.

 

And btw, someone on the ebon hawk said GSs take less skill than a scout / pilot? I say they take just as much, especially when being focused by multiple enemies at all times AND STILL putting out top numbers with minimal deaths. Those who say different should have a go at doing what good GS pilots do before they talk. PLEASE stop saying GSs don't need skill to use until you can post even close to similar numbers as consistently as some of us do.

Edited April 16, 2014 by SammyGStatus

[Pilgrim_Grey]

Sensor dampening was basically never terribly useful because of the 15km limit. If the dampening nerf were accompanied by the removal of that limit, sensor components may actually be worth something, but I don't think that's really a good way to buff the GS (if someone is hitting you you should be able to target them).

 

I agree that sensor dampening doesn't make a huge difference (and before I knew about the 15 km limit, I was confused as heck by people seeing me when I thought they shouldn't, since how sensor dampening works is not super clear). There just seems to be a lot of drama about how gunships are at the mercy of scouts now, even though 2.7 changed things up pretty minimally for only gunships.

 

I'm still getting drained pretty handily by gunships and I've seen gunships doing quite well in the rankings, too, so I guess I'm not sure what people think seems to have changed so drastically (and again, I really do want all the ships to be balanced well).

 

*added*

 

For those gunship pilots saying "Now I'm cannon fodder for a group of scouts or strikes," this is smacking of "I should be able to 1 vs 4 with no problems." If you're getting focused by 3-4 people, you shouldn't be able to escape with blatant ease just because you barrel roll spammed. This sounds more like people want to be able to ignore a coordinated group going after them (which gunships could do before).

Edited April 16, 2014 by Pilgrim_Grey

[Kuciwalker]

I agree that sensor dampening doesn't make a huge difference (and before I knew about the 15 km limit, I was confused as heck by people seeing me when I thought they shouldn't, since how sensor dampening works is not super clear). There just seems to be a lot of drama about how gunships are at the mercy of scouts now, even though 2.7 changed things up pretty minimally for only gunships.

 

No, barrel roll is not a minimal change for gunships. Managing BR was the most important part of defensive flying for a gunship (and secondarily the key to cross-map gunship mobility).

 

I'm still getting drained pretty handily by gunships and I've seen gunships doing quite well in the rankings, too, so I guess I'm not sure what people think seems to have changed so drastically (and again, I really do want all the ships to be balanced well).

 

*added*

 

For those gunship pilots saying "Now I'm cannon fodder for a group of scouts or strikes," this is smacking of "I should be able to 1 vs 4 with no problems." If you're getting focused by 3-4 people, you shouldn't be able to escape with blatant ease just because you barrel roll spammed. This sounds more like people want to be able to ignore a coordinated group going after them (which gunships could do before).

 

No, it's not that you can be taking down by 3-4 people. A perfectly flown gunship would easily be killed by 3-4 competent pilots. The issue is that now a single competent scout pilot will kill a gunship 100% of the time if he closes to 5km.

[Armonddd]

The issue is that now a single competent scout pilot will kill a gunship 100% of the time if he closes to 5km.

 

I don't disagree with your thesis, but hyperbole serves no one.

[Pilgrim_Grey]

No, barrel roll is not a minimal change for gunships. Managing BR was the most important part of defensive flying for a gunship (and secondarily the key to cross-map gunship mobility).

 

No, it's not that you can be taking down by 3-4 people. A perfectly flown gunship would easily be killed by 3-4 competent pilots. The issue is that now a single competent scout pilot will kill a gunship 100% of the time if he closes to 5km.

 

That raises all kinds of concerns for me right now. Before, a gunship could literally fly from one end of the map to another, dodging chasers (I know, I had it happen to me more than once). You're arguing that they need that type of maneuverability and survivability if someone closes with them, but... that's really overpowered. They can do large amounts of damage out of range of any other type of ship, and then you seem to be asking for them to be able to run away from every other type of ship when they get close (whether you meant it that way or not).

 

If a scout or a strike is able to close with a gunship, they should have a decent chance at killing it, otherwise everyone might as well be flying gunships (which quite a few were before 2.7).

 

Gunships are kind of supposed to be support ships... that's what a sniper is. If you're sniping by yourself and you get jumped, that's not unfair, that's a balanced game. It's no different from a healer getting jumped in ground pvp when they're away from their friends (and gunships do have plenty of tools to get back to their friends... more than most healers have in ground pvp, actually).

 

This all is probably an argument for Fortress Shield and the like to get some buffs, but even then, I haven't found gunships to be toothless at close range in 2.7. The good ones will still snipe you no matter how evasive you are, and almost all will have BLCs that are pretty easy to use. And that's not counting teammates... part of why Xi'ao from Shadowlands has so many records is because he's generally playing with competent teammates that watch his back. If I or anyone else starts shooting him, he just runs and his teammates pounce all over us, and then he comes back to do what he was doing when we temporarily interrupted him (although it's wonderful when my team is coordinated to keep him and his friends on their toes and we can have an even match).