Luke Skywalker is a fool

[Beniboybling]

Yes,and that's why this thread has the name it has.

From here on, it's a matter of agreeing to disagreeing.

Why are you accepting what Luke did as the best possible course of action is an interesting question.It probably has to do with the affection you feel towards him.

It says "Luke Skywalker is a fool" not "Luke Skywalker has psychological issues."

 

Anyway I assume this is your way of saying "I have no counter-argument". Very well.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Kaedusz]

Anyway I assume this is your way of saying "I have no counter-argument". Very well.

 

No this is my way of saying throwing it away was not necessary

Regarding the name of the thread- he was a fool to throw it away,surrendering himself to the whole rejecting darkness thing,while in fact the lightsaber itself had little to do with the darkness,even in his mind.

 

Saying he did it, so he had to do it, it just another way of worshiping the character to an extent that has similarity with fanboyism.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Beniboybling]

No this is my way of saying throwing it away was not necessary

Regarding the name of the thread- he was a fool to throw it away,surrendering himself to the whole rejecting darkness thing,while in fact the lightsaber itself had little to do with the darkness,even in his mind.

Which, as I have demonstrated, it did, among other things. But as you said you feel the need to agree to disagree on this point, which is fine. However I don't see the need for the not so sly dig at my integrity which strikes as a childish "well, your stupid!" attempt when all other avenues of argument have failed. Oh well, run along young one.

[Kaedusz]

However I don't see the need for the not so sly dig at my integrity which strikes as a childish "well, your stupid!" attempt

 

What the hell?Your affection towards Luke is endearing if anything,Never once did i mentioned it as a way of belittling you.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Beniboybling]

What the hell?Your affection towards Luke is endearing if anything,Never once did i mentioned it as a way of belittling you.

Saying he did it, so he had to do it, it just another way of worshiping the character to an extent that has similarity with fanboyism.

So I'm expected to not find being compared with a fanboy belittling? LOL.

 

When you assume, you make an @ss out of u and me. And assuming on the internet is just plain stupid. And comparing people to fanboys because they disagree with your opinions and your unable to counterattack then, well...

 

I think we are finished here, I was foolish to believe I could have an intelligent discussion with you.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Kaedusz]

Why are you so sensitive ? I didn't call you a fanboy outright and when i mentioned it it wasn't in the context of disagreeing with you on anything.I was merely expanding on your affection towards the one and only.It wasn't part of the official exchange regarding the topic of the thread.

 

Yes,and that's why this thread has the name it has.

From here on, it's a matter of agreeing to disagreeing.

Why are you accepting what Luke did as the best possible course of action is an interesting question.It probably has to do with the affection you feel towards him.

Why did this post touch a nerve is mystery.

* * *

And also what's so wrong with being a fanboy and why would you be insulted if someone call you one?(i didn't)

Is your ego that fragile?

Edited March 28, 2014 by Kaedusz

[DARTHOSIRUS]

Wow. Okay, so...well I can't even find words. It was a statement, okay? He was saying that he'd rather die than join the dark side. Throwing away the lightsaber was a symbol, because he'd earlier used that weapon in an attempt to strike at Palpatine in anger. Now he's throwing it aside and letting come what may. Dying "with his head held high" is exactly how he would've died even if Vader hadn't rescued him, because he would've died holding onto his morals, showing that he was above Palpatine's taunts. At that point, Palpatine was guaranteed to die anyways since the shield generator had been disabled. Luke didn't care. He was willing to die as long as it meant Palpatine died with him. He wasn't a fool, he was a hero, and you, sir, badly misunderstood–very badly–a very emotional scene, one of the best "turn away from evil" moments in any movie I've seen.

 

I did not misunderstand the scene. I understood all the symbolism. I understood he compared his mechanical hand to his father's and realized at that moment what he could become. Ok he didn't care about sacrificing his life, and he tossed the saber because he felt it was luring him to the darkside. Yes he turned away from evil, and spit in the Emperor's face. All I was suggesting is what did he hope to accomplish by doing this? He is prepared to die right there obviously, but how could giving his life right there really make a difference? You are suggesting Sidious would be destroyed anyway because the shield generator was disabled. I am sure Sidious could have escaped any moment of his choosing. He did not seem too worried at all. I am sure he had a private escape pod, or some kind of teleportation force power to escape. In the EU he had a cloning facility with a body on standby in case something ever happened to him. Luke would be a fool to think sacrificing himself wouldn't matter because The Emperor is going down anyway.

 

Luke did not have a plan really, he was just being a self righteous fool in front of the Emperor, I guess it's debatable if his plan involved vader coming to his rescue once the emperor started in with the force lightning. I doubt Luke would look that far ahead, he had an impulsive nature and that was clealy demonstrated when he abandoned his training with Yoda on Dagobah. Even if that was his plan, it was a real longshot to pin all your hopes on someone who is corrupted as Darth Vader, and who at that point was disarmed.

 

Luke would have been better off becoming the emperor's apprentice if he ever hoped to destroy him. Lord Scourge had a smarter plan when he faced Emperor Vitiate. Scourge joined forces with Vitiate and in the end Vitiate was taken down by Scourge's machinations.... Yes I know Vitiate might still be alive at this point.

Edited March 28, 2014 by DARTHOSIRUS

[Beniboybling]

I did not misunderstand the scene. I understood all the symbolism. I understood he compared his mechanical hand to his father's and realized at that moment what he could become. Ok he didn't care about sacrificing his life, and he tossed the saber because he felt it was luring him to the darkside. Yes he turned away from evil, and spit in the Emperor's face. All I was suggesting is what did he hope to accomplish by doing this? He is prepared to die right there obviously, but how could giving his life right there really make a difference? You are suggesting Sidious would be destroyed anyway because the shield generator was disabled. I am sure Sidious could have escaped any moment of his choosing. He did not seem too worried at all. I am sure he had a private escape pod, or some kind of teleportation force power to escape. In the EU he had a cloning facility with a body on standby in case something ever happened to him. Luke would be a fool to think sacrificing himself wouldn't matter because The Emperor is going down anyway.

 

Luke did not have a plan really, he was just being self righteous fool in front of the Emperor, I guess it's debatable if his plan involved vader coming to his rescue once the emperor started in the force lightning. I doubt Luke would look that far ahead, he had an impulsive nature and that was clealy demonstrated when he abandoned his training with Yoda on Dagobah. Even if that was his plan, it was a real longshot to pin all your hopes on someone who is corrupted as Darth Vader, and who at that point was disarmed.

 

Luke would have been better off becoming the emperor's apprentice if he ever hoped to destroy him. Lord Scourge had a smarter plan when he faced Emperor Vitiate. Scourge joined forces with Vitiate and in the end Vitiate was taken down by Scourge's machinations.... Yes I know Vitiate might still be alive at this point.

It really doesn't make any sense for Luke to become Sidious' apprentice in that situation, first considering that that would have to mean he'd have to kill Vader, his Father, and effectively give in to the dark side. This is not a plan, this is letting the enemy win. If he chose to become Sidious' apprentice it would be at the expense of his own being, there is no possibility that he could have simply pretended. And this of course would doom the Rebellion and his friends.

 

And considering there is no way Luke can actually stop the Emperor without giving in to his aggressive feelings and/or simply being destroyed then yes, he had no alternative options. Better to die a Jedi than become a Sith.

 

I can't pretend to know what was going through Luke's head at the time, maybe he thought his friends would pull through, maybe he thought his father would save him. But one things for sure he knew that no good could come from swinging around his flashy light sword so he threw it away. And he was right, I don't think that makes him a fool.

 

EDIT: Though if Luke thought the Rebels had failed, there is point in him trying to "stop" the Emperor anyway.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Maaruin]

Luke did not have a plan really, he was just being self righteous fool in front of the Emperor, I guess it's debatable if his plan involved vader coming to his rescue once the emperor started in the force lightning.

 

Luke's original plan did not involve meeting the Emperor. He wanted to see Vader and convince him to leave the Emperor and the Dark Side behind.

 

Luke says to Vader:

 

"I know there is good in you. The

Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully. That

is why you couldn't destroy me. That's why

you won't bring me to your Emperor now."

 

When Vader made it clear that he would bring him to the Emperor, Luke gave up hope:

 

"Then my father is truly dead."

 

 

From this point he had no plan besides hoping that his friends would succeed. In the Emperor's throne room he made decision on the fly.

"I should attack the Emperor... no I shouldn't... yes I should, my friends will run into a trap... no I shouldn't... the Death Star is attacking the rebel fleet, die Emperor!

...Oh, I'm fighting with Dad now... there is conflict in him? Maybe I can convince him now... nope, didn't work, better hide... hey, he is looking for me, maybe tell him I won't fight... they want to turn Leia, the bastards!

*bash* *bash* *bash* I hate you, Dad. *bash* *bash* *bash* Oh, dad is down.

...become the Emperor's apprentice? Oh sh*t, I'm turning into Vader.... no, I don't want you... screw you, Emperor, I'm not playing by your rules! *throws saber away*... Hey Emperor, I'm a Jedi, deal with it."

 

If you want to call not having a plan "being a fool", then yes, Luke is a fool. I'd say he just ended up in a situation he wasn't prepared to deal with and tried to handle it as best as he could.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Maaruin

[Kaedusz]

 

I can't pretend to know what was going through Luke's head at the time,

 

/facepalm

[Beniboybling]

If you want to call not having a plan "being a fool", then yes, Luke is a fool. I'd say he just ended up in a situation he wasn't prepared to deal with and tried to handle it as best as he could.

This is a good point, he was very much reacting to his immediate feelings at the time.

[YoshiRaphElan]

You are suggesting Sidious would be destroyed anyway because the shield generator was disabled. I am sure Sidious could have escaped any moment of his choosing. He did not seem too worried at all. I am sure he had a private escape pod, or some kind of teleportation force power to escape.

 

Nah, Palpatine was too distracted torturing Luke to escape. There's never been any indication Palpatine has any kind of teleportation ability, and even if he did, his hubris would've kept him there. It's the same thing as Tarkin: "Evacuate? In our moment of triumph?" Palpatine could not conceive that he would lose so he never would've fled because it would've shown weakness. He did not believe the "pitiful little band" of Rebels could've ever smashed his toy. On the other hand, Luke had complete confidence in his friends. But it's not even about that. It's about Luke taking a stand. So he threw away his lightsaber. So what? It's also about good movie making. Would it have been as emotional a scene if he'd said "I'll never fall to the dark side" and then clipped the lightsaber to his belt? No, it wouldn't have. Throwing it away was not only symbolic, it was an amazing movie moment.

 

Luke would have been better off becoming the emperor's apprentice if he ever hoped to destroy him. Lord Scourge had a smarter plan when he faced Emperor Vitiate. Scourge joined forces with Vitiate and in the end Vitiate was taken down by Scourge's machinations.... Yes I know Vitiate might still be alive at this point.

 

Er, what? Luke becoming the Emperor's apprentice would've been totally defeating the emotional context of that scene, because he would've been going against not only his own personal morals, but everything that Obi-Wan and Yoda had taught him. He would've basically been saying "Two wrongs make a right." There's a reason Scourge is a Sith and Luke's a Jedi. I'd take one Luke over a thousand Scourges any day of the week because Scourge was the kind of man who had no faith in the light bringing victory, whereas Luke was always confident that good would triumph in the end.

Edited March 28, 2014 by YoshiRaphElan

[DarkAngelRiku]

He was fully trained, it was just his emotions(like Anakin) that he had a tough time keeping under control. Difference is, Luke went one way and Anakin went the other.

 

No he wasn't LOL. He left Dagobah mid training against the warnings of both Yoda and Obi-Wan to go try and save Leia. By the time he went back Yoda was dying.

[Beniboybling]

No he wasn't LOL. He left Dagobah mid training against the warnings of both Yoda and Obi-Wan to go try and save Leia. By the time he went back Yoda was dying.

He trained himself though with the help of Obi-Wan's journal I believe. The idea was that by the time of Return of the Jedi he was a proper Jedi Knight. However his training was informal and short.

[DarknessInLight]

 

What was he really expecting by throwing his lightsaber, what was his ultimate plan?

 

He didn't listen to what Yoda told him when he was at the diminutive Jedi Master's bedside:

 

Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor........... or suffer your father's fate you will.

 

He had no ultimate plan. He didn't listen to Yoda. He underestimated Darth Sidious, and it almost cost him his life.

Edited March 31, 2014 by DarknessInLight

[DarknessInLight]

He trained himself though with the help of Obi-Wan's journal I believe. The idea was that by the time of Return of the Jedi he was a proper Jedi Knight. However his training was informal and short.

 

He was far from being a proper Jedi Knight.

 

Yoda: No more training do you require. Already know you, that which you need.

 

Luke: Then I am a Jedi.

 

Yoda: No. Not yet. One thing remains. Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

 

Confronting a Dark Lord of the Sith would be his trial to pass from Padawan Learner to Jedi Knight.

[Wolfninjajedi]

He was far from being a proper Jedi Knight.

 

Yoda: No more training do you require. Already know you, that which you need.

 

Luke: Then I am a Jedi.

 

Yoda: No. Not yet. One thing remains. Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

 

Confronting a Dark Lord of the Sith would be his trial to pass from Padawan Learner to Jedi Knight.

 

Which he did confront Vader, so yes he was a Jedi Knight fully. His training as a Jedi was complete though, all he had to do was then confront Vader to be fully recognized as a Jedi.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

He was far from being a proper Jedi Knight.

 

Yoda: No more training do you require. Already know you, that which you need.

 

Luke: Then I am a Jedi.

 

Yoda: No. Not yet. One thing remains. Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

 

Confronting a Dark Lord of the Sith would be his trial to pass from Padawan Learner to Jedi Knight.

Good point, but in reality confronting his Father and refusing to strike him down or the Emperor was a completion of his Jedi training.

[Kaisernick]

its that moment that if u look back (to the prequels) that make me see what GL was doing with them, Palpatine used Anikans fear of loosing loved ones to turn him, i believe (though there is no proof) that palps was using the force to show Anikan those visions in episode 3 to manipulate him.

It also shows that fatal flaw in palpatines actions in episode 6 the very thing he used to turn vader was in turn used against him by Luke.

[Kaedusz]

Palpatine used Anakin's fear of loosing loved ones to turn him

You should read the novel based on the movie.It's deeper than that.

 

Even without the novel, the fear of losing a loved one was just the last straw.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Kaisernick]

You should read the novel based on the movie.It's deeper than that.

 

Even without the novel, the fear of losing a loved one was just the last straw.

 

i know its not the only reason but its still a big part.

[phalczen]

You know, in the scene where he's dragging up the now redeemed Anakin on the ramp of the imperial shuttle, he has his saber on his belt clip. He has it also during the funeral pyre. But, we don't see him use the Force to retrieve it while still in the Emperor's chambers, we are left to assume he did. That doesn't speak to foolishness, if he stopped to retrieve the signature weapon of a Jedi, in the midst of a dying father and a collapsing superstructure.

[forkedtail]

Luke is stupid.

 

The Jedi are not really known for their intelligence. The Jedi receive a clone army that was ordered by a long dead Jedi Master and unwilling to look a very suspicious gift horse in the mouth, act surprised when said clone army turns on them.

 

The Jedi war credo is all about luck and faith in cute little furries.

Edited April 1, 2014 by forkedtail
addendum

[DARTHOSIRUS]

More I think I about it, Luke and Vader should not have been fighting, they should have been fighting the emperor. Vader wanted to take the emperor down anyway. Remember when Sidious taunted Luke to strike him down with his lightsaber and Luke loses it and goes in for the kill only to be thwarted by Vader. What should have happened is when Vader watches Luke go for it he should not have blocked the blow, but used his own lightsaber to run Sidious through. He would never have seen it coming either, he had that utmost confidence Vader would not betray him, obviously he was wrong. Vader is a fool to. He tells Luke his grand plan to destroy the emperor and rule the galaxy as father and son yet when a perfect opportunity presents itself he blows it.

[Beniboybling]

They had a blog on StarWars.com about this, I'll try and find it.