Luke Skywalker is a fool

[DARTHOSIRUS]

The other day I watched the original trilogy after many many years. I enjoyed them a great deal, but now that I am a little older I tend to look more between the lines. With that said I'll get on with my argument. Why in God's name did Luke toss his lightsaber while the Emperor was goading him to strike Vader down, and take Vader's place as his new apprentice?

 

I cannot see the logic in Luke's decision to say "Never. I'll never turn to the Dark Side. You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me"

 

What was he really expecting by throwing his lightsaber, what was his ultimate plan? He claims to be a jedi yet he acts on pure emotion. Was he expecting Sidious to say

 

"Oh well I guess we tried, why don't we just play some pazaak until this battle ends and I annihilate your friends, then ill just have you sent back to Tatooine"

 

Luke had a few other options which significantly increased his chance of survival. The best option would be strike Vader down and become the Emperor's new apprentice. Luke would become more powerful than him anyway, and one day he would overthrow him, or he could have just placated Sidious until he was sent out on his first mission, at that point he could have simply never returned. The other option would be keeping his lightsaber and attacking Sidious. He would definitely go down, but he would die with his head held high instead of crying on the floor, in fact he might have even had a small chance of victory if he was able to lure Sidious near the reactor shaft and force push him down there.

 

Ultimately he threw away his lightsaber like a fool and spit in the Emperor's face. In the end he walked off the deathstar because he was very very lucky.

 

There was no guarantee Vader would betray his master, or that he was even capable of destroying him.

Edited March 28, 2014 by DARTHOSIRUS

[Beniboybling]

Soon I'll be dead, and you with me. ~ Luke Skywalker

 

Lets just establish this first, Luke didn't think he was going to survive anyway. He went to the Death Star to confront his father and effectively ensure the Emperor perished on the station along with everyone else. And even if Vader hadn't struck down the Emperor they still all would have died when the Death Star was finally destroyed.

 

He's a Jedi for crying out loud, funnily enough their first concern is not personal preservation.

 

On the other hand, striking down Vader who have led Luke to fall to the dark side. You can't just fall to the dark side, amass a bit of power, then walk away - it doesn't work like that. Look at Dark Empire, Luke submitted to the Emperor's will and became his apprentice because he knew he couldn't destroy him head on, so instead he tried to sabotage his operations from the inside. The Emperor knew what was happening all along and ultimately Luke became the Emperor's slave, saved from the dark side only be the strength of his sister's battle meditation. Not even taking into account what would happen to the Rebellion and assuming they survived the destruction of the Death Star.

 

And of course attacking the Emperor would have been no different, he would be giving in to his rage and fall to the dark side anyway - just

when Galen Marek tried that on Sidious in the DS ending.

 

The point is the Emperor wanted Luke to fight, and the only way Luke could resist the Emperor's will was by not fighting. So he stopped, because he was a Jedi, and he was willing to sacrifice his life in protection of that.

[tunewalker]

Soon I'll be dead, and you with me. ~ Luke Skywalker

 

Lets just establish this first, Luke didn't think he was going to survive anyway. He went to the Death Star to confront his father and effectively ensure the Emperor perished on the station along with everyone else. And even if Vader hadn't struck down the Emperor they still all would have died when the Death Star was finally destroyed.

 

He's a Jedi for crying out loud, funnily enough their first concern is not personal preservation.

 

On the other hand, striking down Vader who have led Luke to fall to the dark side. You can't just fall to the dark side, amass a bit of power, then walk away - it doesn't work like that. Look at Dark Empire, Luke submitted to the Emperor's will and became his apprentice because he knew he couldn't destroy him head on, so instead he tried to sabotage his operations from the inside. The Emperor knew what was happening all along and ultimately Luke became the Emperor's slave, saved from the dark side only be the strength of his sister's battle meditation. Not even taking into account what would happen to the Rebellion and assuming they survived the destruction of the Death Star.

 

And of course attacking the Emperor would have been no different, he would be giving in to his rage and fall to the dark side anyway - just

when Galen Marek tried that on Sidious in the DS ending.

 

The point is the Emperor wanted Luke to fight, and the only way Luke could resist the Emperor's will was by not fighting. So he stopped, because he was a Jedi, and he was willing to sacrifice his life in protection of that.

 

Thank you beni, exactly right . This was the one path the emperor could not foresee. He saw Luke killing his father and succumbing to him or attacking him and being overwhelmed and thus succumbing to him. The only path that he could not foresee was the boy's refusal to fight. To do nothing. And it was the only correct awnser. Luke didnt intend to survive any way. All he intended to do was to right the wrongs with his father. He sought to make sure the Emperor stayed there for the destruction of the Death Star ensuring the success of the Rebellion and he sought his own spiritual elightenment above his own survival. A Jedi if ever there was one.

[Ionlyplayoneontv]

The thing with getting older and reading between the lines is, you may not yet understand the lines between the lines that you are reading between the lines of.

 

Did that confuse you?

 

It confused the hell out of me and I wrote it.

 

My point is, what you think was going on in that battle and what was going on in that battle are two different things.

 

Luke was not going into that battle with the goal of survival. More to the point, his goal was more than JUST survival. Not just surviving physically, which he could have done by accepting the Emperor's offer to replace his father, but the survival of his soul (if you will). He knew that killing his father and becoming the Emperor's apprentice would bring him closer to the dark side (possibly completely over the line) and that he might not recover from that, since his father did not.

 

Luke was not going into the battle hoping that some sort of heroic sacrifice on his part would randomly lead to good things. He did not intend to throw his life away, although I think he was willing to do that if he had to.

 

Luke knew that one not-fully-trained Jedi had no chance of defeating two very powerful and experienced Sith lords. His strategy in the throne room was based on one important factor. The Emperor thought that he and Darth Vader were battling Luke for control of his soul. Luke understood that the real battle was actually him battling the Emperor for control of his father's soul. The lightsaber battle between Luke and Vader was important, but was not the main part of Luke's strategy. Luke stated previously that he felt the conflict in Vader between doing what the Emperor wanted and doing what was right. He knew that his only chance against the Emperor was to turn Darth Vader away from the Emperor's influence.

 

So, when Luke had beaten Darth Vader, he stood in front of the Emperor and said, "You've failed, Your Highness. I'm a jedi now, like my father before me" and tossed his lightsaber aside. What WAS Luke doing at that point (since that is the main question here)?

 

What Luke was not actually doing, was depriving himself of a meaningful weapon. There was no way that Luke could defeat the Emperor with his lightsaber. The Emperor could defeat him at any point with the wide variety of force powers he possessed.

 

That statement and action were a symbolic gesture, meant to accomplish multiple things at once. He showed the Emperor that he was rejecting not just his offer, but the darkside/Sith path in general. His statement was also a subtle way of reminding his father of the fact that he also used to be a Jedi. The fact that he was leaving himself defenseless and taunting the Emperor was what caused the Emperor to finally attack him himself. Luke's willingness to sacrifice himself and plea to his father was the final catalyst needed to make Darth Vader finally turn against the Emperor.

 

Was Luke foolish or brave? He may have been playing some long odds that things would turn out his way in the end. Or, maybe he wasn't. Obi-wan and Yoda taught Luke that the Dark Side isn't stronger, and that when you act in harmony with the Force things will go your way. Another way of saying that is that it required Luke to take a leap-of-faith. But Luke took that leap of faith based on the fact that he believed that there was still good in his father and that the Force would lead him back to it.

[Kaedusz]

Soon I'll be dead, and you with me. ~ Luke Skywalker

 

 

Except by the time he tossed his saber,the emperor convinced him his friends down bellow would fail,that is also one of the main reasons he lashed out against Vader.Not only because they would fail alone, but also because after the failure his captured sister would be on Vader's mercy.

 

So yes,the whole toss the light saber away part is pretty retarded and OP is awesome for bringing it up.

 

 

And of course attacking the Emperor would have been no different, he would be giving in to his rage and fall to the dark side anyway

 

Yes it's better to lie down and be electrocuted do death, but remain with clear conscience than to at least try to do something vs Palpatine.This is so selfish that Vitiate's evil pales in comparison.

Not to mention absurd.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Beniboybling]

Except by the time he tossed his saber,the emperor convinced him his friends down bellow would fail,that is also one of the main reasons he lashed out against Vader.Not only because they would fail alone, but also because after the failure his captured sister would be on Vader's mercy.

 

So yes,the whole toss the light saber away part is pretty retarded.

I understand this, I was merely demonstrating how uninterested Luke was in his own self preservation. If he was willing to die if and when the Death Star was destroyed, why would he care of the Emperor kills him now? Turning to the dark side would be a fate worse than death. That said we cannot assume Luke had lost all hope.

 

Vader tricked Luke into attacking him by making that claim, to make him fall to the dark side. And if he had his sister would have been no safer than if he had died then and there and the Death Star had been destroyed. We can't seriously assume that after discovering the existence of Leia the Emperor would not pursue her as well.

 

The only thing that would be "retarded" is playing into the Emperor's hands and turning to the dark side. And what would that have achieved exactly, accept his own self-preservation for which he clearly was not concerned?

[Beniboybling]

Yes it's better to lie down and be electrocuted do death, but remain with clear conscience than to at least try to do something vs Palpatine.This is so selfish than Vitiate's evil pales in comparison.

Not to mention absurd.

So becoming a pawn of Palpatine is the preferable option? There wasn't anything Luke could do to stop the Emperor other than hope his friends would be successful in destroying the Death Star. Turning the the dark side would have ensured the death of the Rebellion, the death of his friends and his failure as a Jedi.

[Kaedusz]

...

That's a rationalization only a fan/outside observer can make.

Inside the Star Wars ''Matrix'', Luke would hardly have this thought in his mind,at this time.

The main Dark Side danger for him was from the fight with his father.A potential confrontation with Palpatine,even if unsuccessful is a separate issue.

 

Also this ''attacking someone,especially Palpatine ,will make you fall the dark side'',that we observed in The Force Unleashed, is very overrated , absurd and hardly valid,outside of TFU's context and Marek's particular circumstances.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Beniboybling]

That's a rationalization only a fan/outside observer can make.

Inside the Star Wars ''Matrix'', Luke would hardly have this thought in his mind.

The main Dark Side danger for him was from the fight with his father.A potential confrontation with Palpatine,even if unsuccessful is a separate issue.

 

Also this ''attacking someone,especially Palpatine ,will make you fall the dark side'',that we observed in The Force Unleashed, is very overrated , absurd and hardly valid,outside of TFU's context.

My email tells me your referring to this:

 

There wasn't anything Luke could do to stop the Emperor.

 

Darth Sidious is an immensely powerful Force User who subdued Luke with complete ease. In his presence Luke would have most certainly been able to sense his power and have been aware of the futility of him attempting to challenge it. That and he'd be doing exactly what the Emperor wanted considering it was Sidious who goaded him into attacking him in the first place. No Luke could not have predicted the future, but nothing good could have come from it.

 

But there is more to it than that, by throwing away his lightsaber Luke was throwing away the dark side. Sidious wanted him to kill Vader, to give into his anger and replace him. Luke saw the trap for what it was and refused, going as far as to throw his lightsaber away. Basically he was saying "Look, Palpy, your plan isn't going to work, I'm not going to become your apprentice, so you may as well just kill me." And Luke didn't care if he did.

 

Anyway, I'm interested in what you think Luke should have done, and what it would have achieved.

[Kaedusz]

That and he'd be doing exactly what the Emperor wanted considering it was Sidious who goaded him into attacking him in the first place.

 

in order to preach to him while he was sparring with his father.

* * *

I personally don't want anything in particular.However i would have enjoyed more a similar scenario:

same outcome as in the movie,except Luke would be on the ground Force Lightning-ed, after a 3 sec confrontation with Palpatine.

Turning him while prolonging an eventual fight with him would be futile,because Palpatine would have sensed he made a confident step towards the Light Side,after his refusal to strike down his father.

 

This 3(or w/e)seconds confrontation would have been good for nerdgasm purposes ,because Palpatine would have demonstrated his awesomeness.A can picture something similar to what Palpatine did to Maul in the CW(the last toss around then electrocute part).-something in that fashion.Luke run towards him with turned on saber,then Palpatine proceeds to own him,while telling him how he is no match for the Dark Side.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Adaliaya]

One moment of foolishness doesn't make person complete fool. Better title for this thread would be "Luke was fool to throw out his lightsaber" that's right. But then again, he is not a fool. He did a lot good deeds. And, for sure Albert Einstein sometimes miscalculated things. That doesn't make him any less genius.

[Beniboybling]

in order to preach to him while he was sparring with his father.

* * *

I personally don't want anything in particular.However i would have enjoyed more a similar scenario:

same outcome as in the movie,except Luke would be on the ground Force Lightning-ed, after a 3 sec confrontation with Palpatine.

Turning him while prolonging an eventual fight with him would be futile,because Palpatine would have sensed he made a confident step towards the Light Side,after his refusal to strike down his father.

 

This 3(or w/e)seconds confrontation would have been good for nerdgasm purposes ,because Palpatine would have demonstrated his awesomeness.A can picture something similar to what Palpatine did to Maul in the CW(the last toss around then electrocute part).-something in that fashion.Luke run towards him with turned on saber,then Palpatine proceeds to own him,while telling him how he is no match for the Dark Side.

i.e. in order to goad him into using his aggressive feelings while fighting Vader, if he had fought Sidious the Emperor would have done the same, goading him into using his aggression to strike him down just like he did with Galen Marek when Marek attacked and knocked down the Emperor. Essentially he's back to square one, just fighting another Sith.

 

But just maybe the Emperor would have decided that Luke is too much of a Jedi to be turned, in such an instance he would have just slapped Luke down, and I'm pretty sure Luke was aware that the Emperor could slap him down. Essentially there is no logical reason that Luke could possibly construct for trying to engage Palpatine.

 

Again it would have been a futile gesture, better to reject conflict all together and taken another step to the light.

 

In response to your alternate scenario, flashy visuals and fan service is no match for the panache of symbolic significance, kid. How very lame and anti-climatic that would have been, each to their own I guess.

[Maaruin]

That's a rationalization only a fan/outside observer can make.

Inside the Star Wars ''Matrix'', Luke would hardly have this thought in his mind,at this time.

The main Dark Side danger for him was from the fight with his father.A potential confrontation with Palpatine,even if unsuccessful is a separate issue.

 

Also this ''attacking someone,especially Palpatine ,will make you fall the dark side'',that we observed in The Force Unleashed, is very overrated , absurd and hardly valid,outside of TFU's context and Marek's particular circumstances.

 

Luke probably wouldn't have these thoughts on his mind. What he had on his mind was what Palpatine told him again and again:

"Attack me (or Vader) and you fall to the dark side."

At this point Luke did not have a clear enough mind to separate his thoughts from what the Emperor had told him.

[Kaedusz]

 

In response to your alternate scenario, flashy visuals and fan service is no match for the panache of symbolic significance, kid. How very lame and anti-climatic that would have been, each to their own I guess.[/color]

 

That's the point of the whole thing. There was nothing symbolic at throwing away the light saber. You are giving meaning to something insignificant just for the sake of it.

 

PS: kid? really?

 

better to reject conflict all together and taken another step to the light.

nope,it's better to at least try something,than to feel self-righteous for rejecting conflict,while you,your friends and the Rebel fleet dies.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Aurbere]

That's the point of the whole thing. There was nothing symbolic at throwing away the light saber. You are giving meaning to something insignificant just for the sake of it.

 

PS: kid? really?

 

That moment was entirely symbolic.

[Kaedusz]

That moment was entirely symbolic.

 

Yes,In the context of his confrontation with his father,not with his interaction with Sidious-which is what we are talking about at the moment.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Aurbere]

Yes,In the context of his confrontation with his father,not with his interaction with Sidious-which is what we are talking about at the moment.

 

No, the entire confrontation was filled with symbolism.

[Kaedusz]

No, the entire confrontation was filled with symbolism.

That's immaterial.

We are talking about tossing the saber away.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Aurbere]

That's immaterial.

We are talking about tossing the saber away.

 

Yes, we are.

[Kaedusz]

Yes, we are.

 

senile much?

[Beniboybling]

That's the point of the whole thing. There was nothing symbolic at throwing away the light saber. You are giving meaning to something insignificant just for the sake of it.

 

PS: kid? really?

 

nope,it's better to at least try something,than to feel self-righteous for rejecting conflict,while you,your friends and the Rebel fleet dies.

Well it's a shame that went over your head, as did the Star Wars reference it seems. Not a fan of the OT I presume?

 

Anyway as I've explained, it would not only be a futile gesture but one that could cause his turn to the dark side and in doing so put his friends in all the more danger. However you don't seem to be prepared to counter those arguments.

 

Instead we are resorting to cherry picking it seems, not that I'm surprised.

 

And it has nothing to do with self-righteousness - as Maaurin mentioned Luke's thoughts and feelings were clouded and he knew full well the dangers of engaging in combat and what the Emperor was trying to do. I full well expect that if Luke had attacked the Emperor he still would have attempted to turn him to the dark side, only by rejecting confrontation completely could Luke show the Emperor and himself that he could not be turned.

 

Again a pointless and dangerous move i.e. attacking Sidious, is the only action that would make look a fool.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

senile much?

 

That point sailed over your head.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Yeah if Luke did kill Vader, he would have fallen. Because already within the presense of the Emperor + his emotions, he would have fallen. He even thought of this before arriving to meet him.

 

The thought was at once repugnant and compelling. Destroy Vader—and then what. For the first time, Luke had a brief murky image of himself, standing on his father’s body, holding his father’s blazing power, and sitting at the Emperor’s right hand.

 

-Taken from ROTJ

 

Besides his emotional state/feelings....well...

 

“You no longer need those,” he added with no-bless oblige—and made the slightest motion with his finger in the direction of Luke’s wrists. At that, Luke’s binders simply fell away, clattering noisily to the floor. Luke looked at his own hands—free, now, to reach out for the Emperor’s throat, to crush his windpipe in an instant...

 

The Emperor was unarmed. He could still strike. But wasn’t aggression part of the dark side? Mustn’t he avoid that at all costs? Or could he use darkness judiciously, and then put it away? He stared at his free hands...he could have ended it all right there—or could he? He had total freedom to choose what to do now; yet he could not choose. Choice, the double-edged sword.

 

Luke flashed with anger at himself, now, to have revealed so much, unwillingly, unwittingly. Anger and self-doubt. He strove to calm himself—to see all, to show nothing; only to be.

 

The Emperor smiled. “Good. I can feel your anger. I am defenseless—take your weapon. Strike me down with all of your hatred, and your journey toward the dark side will be complete.” He laughed, and laughed.

 

Luke was able to resist no longer. The lightsaber rattled violently on the throne a moment, then flew into his hand, impelled by the Force. He ignited it a moment later and swung it with his full weight downward toward the Emperor’s skull.

 

Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost, he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet. Luke wasn't ready for that, emotionally.

 

So...you get the picture, striking down Vader would have just sealed his fate over towards the darkside and he would have become the Emperor's new apprentice.

 

Throwing away his saber was, as said a symbolic meaning. Luke throwing his saber, was meaning he was denouncing the darkness from within and staying true as a Jedi Knight.

 

Luke stared at his father beneath him, then at the Emperor, then back at Vader. This was Darkness—and it was the Darkness he hated. Not his father, not even the Emperor. But the Darkness in them. In them, and in himself. And the only way to destroy the Darkness was to renounce it. For good and all. He stood suddenly erect, and made the decision for which he'd spent his life in preparation. He hurled his lightsaber away. “Never! Never will I turn to the dark side! You have failed, Palpatine. I am a Jedi, as my father was before me.”

 

--Taken from Return of the Jedi

Edited March 28, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

That's immaterial.

We are talking about tossing the saber away.

Your joking, right?

 

How is tossing the lightsaber away not symbolic? Did it not clearly represent Luke rejecting the dark side and the Emperor's "offer" to become his new apprentice? Of him rejecting the path of his Father? i.e. throwing it away.

 

I mean did the blatant symbolism surrounding the lightsaber/gloved hand representing the dark side and Vader really go completely over your head? That's a tad embarrassing considering how explicit they made it.

 

I'm sure even the OP will admit the obvious symbolism. Why do you think they made him do it in the first place? Cause YOLO? I must admit Kaedusz, while you are often quite annoying you are at the very least sometimes entertaining.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Kaedusz]

Anyway as I've explained, it would not only be a futile gesture but one that could cause his turn to the dark side and in doing so put his friends in all the more danger. However you don't seem to be prepared to counter those arguments.

 

Don't know what you mean by arguments.It's opinions.My opinion is that he made a decisive step towards the Light Side after he refused to kill his father.A fight with Palpatine would have resulted most probably with his(Luke's) death or would have ended the same,with Palpatine flying down.

 

Your opinion is that he would be turned to the dark side,bringing Marek as an example,despite that fact that Marek's particular case is unique and can't be applied to Luke.

 

 

How is tossing the lightsaber away not symbolic? Did it not clearly represent Luke rejecting the dark side and the Emperor's "offer" to become his new apprentice? Of him rejecting the path of his Father? i.e. throwing it away.

 

 

He could have just as easily done those things without throwing away his saber.

I mean did the blatant symbolism surrounding the lightsaber/gloved hand representing the dark side and Vader really go completely over your head?

 

You going senile too? All i am talking about is objective action of throwing away your saber,alone, and then put it through a reality check,without putting on glasses consisting of corny symbolism mushiness.

I must admit Kaedusz, while you are often quite annoying you are at the very least sometimes entertaining.

You should see my performance in the Imperial Fleet's general chat.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Kaedusz