Hear ye & gather round - I've found an actual *rotation* for Tactics

[Cotlu-Hunlon]

While playing Tactics everything was coming off cooldown at different times causing a frantic, desperate and uncoordinated playstyle. I knew I was not the only person suffering this ordeal. After much gnashing of teeth during boss fights I'd had enough and pushed away my Group Finder button in disgust and went into exile aboard my Thunderclap spaceship; I would not leave until I had unlocked the secrets of this strange, contrived skill tree (which forces you to be in melee range so you can stab people despite your otherwise impressive arsenal). This resolved itself within 5 minutes, much to my horror, once I realised just like Moses being given the 10 commandments on Mount Sinai, there were 3 separate phases to the Tactics rotation and I merely had to harness their linearity.

 

Start Of A Fight + Running In

The normal Vanguard kerfuffle:

Preload your Cannon + Get 3 stacks of Pulse Cannon

 

Run in with: Sticky Grenade > Hammer Shot

 

Here comes the divine Tactics gospel

Phase 1

Gut > Pulse Cannon

 

Phase 2

Fire Pulse > Stockstrike > HIB

 

Phase 3

Ion Pulse > Hammer Shot > Ion Pulse > Hammer Shot

 

Battle Focus should be paired with Shoulder Cannon during Phases 1 + 2

 

Explanation

1) Gut comes first since because of the Triumph talent: all damage we deal to a target suffering Gut is increased by 3% thus it makes sense to do this first to increase all damage. Pulse Cannon at 3 stacks is our highest damage ability so that is next and puts it on cooldown quickly.

 

2) Fire Pulse, Stockstrike and HIB have long felt like the red-headed stepchildren of the Tactics skillset - partially due to Stockstrikes's 9sec cooldown compared with the 15s of the others. They would normally just fit in somewhere once off cooldown and were awkward to manage. No more. Used in that succession makes full use of all their procs and effects:

Fire Pulse makes SS free, and SS makes HIB autocrit so chain them in that order. If done correctly Fire Pulse comes off cooldown right after the end of Pulse Cannon in Phase 1 and it syncs beautifully.

 

3) I view the third phase as a 'recovery' phase. You need to build 3 stacks in time for Pulse Cannon coming off cooldown so 2 Ion Pulses are essential (on top of the 1st stack from Fire Pulse). The Hammer Shot then allows ammo to regain for Phase 1 again and also prevents you from clipping Gut (no Alacrity is essential here, and anyway Surge is stronger for VG's particularly because of Battle Focus increased crit% ).

 

These 3 phases are sustainable indefinitely.

Disciples of Tactics go test this for yourselves and rejoice

Edited March 28, 2014 by Cotlu-Hunlon

[drummerinthesun]

Your rotation is only 9 GCDs long. The cooldown on Pulse Cannon is 15 seconds, or 10 GCDs. It's inherently flawed, no? Or did you forget another ability? Why not have SS float where you have ion pulse and hammer shot? More uses on a strong ability means more dps. Ion pulse and hammer shot have no cooldown, so they can be substituted. You may have found a rotation, but it is far from optimal. You only need to watch for 4 cooldowns. SS, Railshot, Fire Pulse, and Pulse Cannon. That's not hard to track and fit into a rotation built around 15 seconds, which gives you a couple filler slots when you plot everything out around Pulse cannon. Gut, SS, and Fire pulse float, use everything else on cooldown, get 3 stacks for Pulse cannon. Edited March 27, 2014 by drummerinthesun

[Cotlu-Hunlon]

Your rotation is only 9 GCDs long. The cooldown on Pulse Cannon is 15 seconds, or 10 GCDs. It's inherently flawed, no? Or did you forget another ability? Why not have SS float where you have ion pulse and hammer shot? More uses on a strong ability means more dps. Ion pulse and hammer shot have no cooldown, so they can be substituted. You may have found a rotation, but it is far from optimal. You only need to watch for 4 cooldowns. SS, Railshot, Fire Pulse, and Pulse Cannon. That's not hard to track and fit into a rotation built around 15 seconds, which gives you a couple filler slots when you plot everything out around Pulse cannon. Gut, SS, and Fire pulse float, use everything else on cooldown, get 3 stacks for Pulse cannon.

 

Thankyou for pointing that out, I missed out the 2nd Hammer Shot in Phase 3.

 

You cannot fit SS as a filler in Phase 3 because by the time it's off cooldown, it is time to use Gut again (which has higher priority) and after Gut comes Pulse Cannon, again, which is higher priority, again with Fire Pulse, only then it is time to use SS so it's cooldown actually is better suited at 15seconds, and removes any cooldown tracking. The benefit of not watching cooldowns is you never once have to look at your buff bar or quickbar with this rotation allowing for more awareness and positioning. Also there is zero chance of messing this up compared to an ever-changing floating one.

[drummerinthesun]

EDIT: I had some bad info here.

 

This will be ok for SM ops, but consciously dropping dps is not going to be a good thing for HM or NiM ops. It makes it simple, but there's no way you're putting up good numbers, not to mention this is one of the weakest sustained dps specs as it is.

Edited March 28, 2014 by drummerinthesun

[TACeMossie]

Ah but this is wrong. You see, optimal DPS comes from using stockstrike 3 times every 30 seconds!

 

HOW IS THIS DONE!

 

Stockstrikes natural 9 second cooldown. So we get a 30 second rotation based off this. Fire Pulse, Gut, High Impact Bolt, and Pulse Cannon can not be juggled around.

 

Here is an example of what needs to be done:

 

[preload pulse generator]

# = Cooldown

1 - GUT

2 - HAMMER SHOTS

3 - PULSE CANNON

5 - FIRE PULSE

6 - STOCKSTRIKE

7 - HIGH IMPACT BOLT

8 - ION PULSE

9 - HAMMER SHOTS

10 - ION PULSE

11 - GUT

12 - STOCKSTRIKE

13 - PULSE CANNON

15 - FIRE PULSE

16 - HAMMER SHOTS

17 - HIGH IMPACT BOLT

18 - ION PULSE

19 - STOCKSTRIKE

20 - ION PULSE

 

The use of this 30 second rotation is superior to the one the OP provided, as it gets an extra stockstrike in, in exchange for not having to use a hammer shots. Sadly, its incredibly RNG dependant, as it needs Battering Ram to proc for stockstrike #2 or it starts hurting energy management. A lot. But if Battering Ram constantly procs, then this rotation ends up doing 3-5% more dps than the one the OP provided.

 

I guess I just don't understand why you're willingly losing 3 seconds of gut's bleed each use (not to mention the +3% damage increase to bleeding targets), and less uses of stockstrike. This will be ok for SM ops, but consciously dropping dps is not going to be a good thing for HM or NiM ops. It makes it simple, but there's no way you're putting up good numbers, not to mention this is one of the weakest sustained dps specs as it is.

 

Gut is a 15 second bleed. The rotation in the OP is 15 seconds

 

Gut, stockstrike, fire pulse, High Impact Bolt, Ion Pulse, Hammer shots, ion pulse, hammer shots = 8 cooldowns

pulse cannon = 2 cooldowns.

Edited March 28, 2014 by TACeMossie

[Cotlu-Hunlon]

That's just it, 15 seconds suits Tactics better. Now if there was a talent that reduced SS to 7.5secs then yes you could fit 2 inside the rotation. But 9s is incompatiable with 15 and it leads to some abilities coming off at the same time and the frantic and unflowing feeling.

 

Gut - 15s DoT

Pulse Cannon - 15s CD

Fire Pulse - 15s CD

HIB - 15 s CD

[Cotlu-Hunlon]

then this rotation ends up doing 3-5% more dps than the one the OP provided.

 

Pedantic I may seem here but at no point in my OP did I ever say mine was the best DPS. No one brings a Tactic Vanguards into any serious raid content anyway (except maybe Bestia etc). This is a quality of life improvement for me and hopefully for anyone else reading this who wants to give Tactics a go. Also 3-5% is not much considering that your 30sec can be messed up very very easily and lead to not using Gut / PC / FP / HIB on their cooldowns.

 

This one will *always* use those 4 highest damaging abilities on CD at the expense of SS. And most importantly, like I said before, you will never have to look at your quickbars with this one.

[drummerinthesun]

I would put that disclaimer in the OP, then. Otherwise you get posts like ours trying to fix what's wrong for the best dps. Solid work though on working out a easy-to-remember rotation.

 

Also, C-tor is still crushing content (NiM DF right now) and he rolls tactics often (Draxus, Corrupter) and does fantastic dps.

Edited March 28, 2014 by drummerinthesun

[MGNMTTRN]

Pedantic I may seem here but at no point in my OP did I ever say mine was the best DPS. No one brings a Tactic Vanguards into any serious raid content anyway (except maybe Bestia etc). This is a quality of life improvement for me and hopefully for anyone else reading this who wants to give Tactics a go. Also 3-5% is not much considering that your 30sec can be messed up very very easily and lead to not using Gut / PC / FP / HIB on their cooldowns.

 

This one will *always* use those 4 highest damaging abilities on CD at the expense of SS. And most importantly, like I said before, you will never have to look at your quickbars with this one.

I run Tactics on my Vanguard on Draxus, Grob'thok, Corruptor Zero, Bestia, and Calphyas sometimes. I have some 69 gear, a 72 barrel, two Arkanian SA relics, and unaugmented Oriconian implants and ear. I was consistently one of the top 3 DPS in my 16man group. Tactics brings serious AOE damage.

Edited March 28, 2014 by MGNMTTRN

[Cotlu-Hunlon]

I run Tactics on my Vanguard on Draxus, Grob'thok, Corruptor Zero, Bestia, and Calphyas sometimes. I have some 69 gear, a 72 barrel, two Arkanian SA relics, and unaugmented Oriconian implants and ear. I was consistently one of the top 3 DPS in my 16man group. Tactics brings serious AOE damage.

 

But single target suffers unfortunately and Assault Spec is only a bit better

 

I hope that if we do get a buff, as Eric Musco said, it's just the right size and not too large like the recent Scrapper buff causing a nerf U-turn

[Davionix]

Phase 1

Gut > Pulse Cannon

 

Phase 2

Fire Pulse > Stockstrike > HIB

 

Phase 3

Ion Pulse > Ion Pulse > Hammer Shot > go back to phase 1

 

You need only 1 hammer shot for ammo neutral tactics rotation.

 

When you are using rotation with battle focus & adrenal during burn phase completely eliminate hammer shot and squeeze in a 3r ion pulse even though you will have 3 stacks of pulse generator already.

 

After that you can use reserve powercell with pulse cannon to go back to neutral ammo rotation.

[Cotlu-Hunlon]

Phase 1

Gut > Pulse Cannon

 

Phase 2

Fire Pulse > Stockstrike > HIB

 

Phase 3

Ion Pulse > Ion Pulse > Hammer Shot > go back to phase 1

 

You need only 1 hammer shot for ammo neutral tactics rotation.

 

When you are using rotation with battle focus & adrenal during burn phase completely eliminate hammer shot and squeeze in a 3r ion pulse even though you will have 3 stacks of pulse generator already.

 

After that you can use reserve powercell with pulse cannon to go back to neutral ammo rotation.

 

I think your APM is lower than it should be because there should be 4 attacks in Phase 3, otherwise there is a time delay between the 3rd attack and the subsequent Gut.

 

And really Phase 3 is more like:

Ion Pulse > Ion Pulse > Hammer Shot > Ion Pulse

especially since VG's get more ammo in an actual fight from AoE damage. I won't alter the original post with what you said because then it devalues the discussion down here

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

I think your APM is lower than it should be because there should be 4 attacks in Phase 3, otherwise there is a time delay between the 3rd attack and the subsequent Gut.

 

And really Phase 3 is more like:

Ion Pulse > Ion Pulse > Hammer Shot > Ion Pulse

especially since VG's get more ammo in an actual fight from AoE damage. I won't alter the original post with what you said because then it devalues the discussion down here

 

Slight Necro, but i dont feel like making a new topic for the same thing.

 

You didnt throw in where to use Shoulder Cannon, and also during Phase 3, could you substitute one of the Ion Pulses for an Explosive Surge for add heavy fights E.G. Draxus, Grob'thok, and Bestia?

 

Also, I've had some kind of "epiphany", but i want to see how you guys feel about it. Would it be a good idea to run a Devestating Vengeance Relic with the Main-Stat relic for the extra Crit for using the 30% Surge from the Havoc Training talent? my thoughts with that is that even though crit is already a gamble, the 30% Surge from Havoc Training plus the 70% - 75% Surge from gear and stuff, would be enough to make the gamble reasonably decent, that would mean we could see Pulse Cannon Crits on each tick for 4k+, now I do know that we have Battle Focus, but Battle Focus is only a 25% Crit buff, i think on my Operative, with 3k+ cunning, and 0 Crit gear, i have atleast 25% crit, so that only would bring up my crit to 50% which is not the same as 100% crit. Also i do know that Crit has a high as Mount Everest DR, and i hope that the DR on crit is changed to be less steep so that we can have builds that benefit from Crit, benefit more.

[Cotlu-Hunlon]

Slight Necro, but i dont feel like making a new topic for the same thing.

 

You didnt throw in where to use Shoulder Cannon, and also during Phase 3, could you substitute one of the Ion Pulses for an Explosive Surge for add heavy fights E.G. Draxus, Grob'thok, and Bestia?

 

I did mention Shoulder Cannon, it's written just below Phase 3.

 

Also, I've had some kind of "epiphany", but i want to see how you guys feel about it. Would it be a good idea to run a Devestating Vengeance Relic with the Main-Stat relic for the extra Crit for using the 30% Surge from the Havoc Training talent? my thoughts with that is that even though crit is already a gamble, the 30% Surge from Havoc Training plus the 70% - 75% Surge from gear and stuff, would be enough to make the gamble reasonably decent, that would mean we could see Pulse Cannon Crits on each tick for 4k+, now I do know that we have Battle Focus, but Battle Focus is only a 25% Crit buff, i think on my Operative, with 3k+ cunning, and 0 Crit gear, i have atleast 25% crit, so that only would bring up my crit to 50% which is not the same as 100% crit. Also i do know that Crit has a high as Mount Everest DR, and i hope that the DR on crit is changed to be less steep so that we can have builds that benefit from Crit, benefit more.

 

Only one way to find out, equip and run some parses. DR doesn't affect a flat percentage buff like that so it seems like a good idea.

[TACeMossie]

Slight Necro, but i dont feel like making a new topic for the same thing.

 

You didnt throw in where to use Shoulder Cannon, and also during Phase 3, could you substitute one of the Ion Pulses for an Explosive Surge for add heavy fights E.G. Draxus, Grob'thok, and Bestia?

 

Also, I've had some kind of "epiphany", but i want to see how you guys feel about it. Would it be a good idea to run a Devestating Vengeance Relic with the Main-Stat relic for the extra Crit for using the 30% Surge from the Havoc Training talent? my thoughts with that is that even though crit is already a gamble, the 30% Surge from Havoc Training plus the 70% - 75% Surge from gear and stuff, would be enough to make the gamble reasonably decent, that would mean we could see Pulse Cannon Crits on each tick for 4k+, now I do know that we have Battle Focus, but Battle Focus is only a 25% Crit buff, i think on my Operative, with 3k+ cunning, and 0 Crit gear, i have atleast 25% crit, so that only would bring up my crit to 50% which is not the same as 100% crit. Also i do know that Crit has a high as Mount Everest DR, and i hope that the DR on crit is changed to be less steep so that we can have builds that benefit from Crit, benefit more.

 

Whoever told you that about crit is a liar

 

Crit doesn't have bad diminishing returns. It has bad returns in general

 

In fact, if KBNs numbers have anything to say, you can get up to about 2330 crit before the diminishing returns start to kick in using a "Half Life" system. Surge is at ~250, Alacrity & accuracy at ~1100, and tank ones are around 1400.

 

but yeah, when at 0 crit, 1 crit gives a mere 0.021% bonus crit per point, while power is giving a full 0.2415 (buffed) force/tech power per point... yeah

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Only one way to find out, equip and run some parses. DR doesn't affect a flat percentage buff like that so it seems like a good idea.

 

Well, my 55 Vanguard is in some pretty bad tank gear, and i just converted him to Tactics, so running parses will take awhile, i may try it on a WZ dummy when i get full Oberon gear, and have both the Dev Vengeance relic and the Serindip Assault Relic, that would give a rough estimate. then when i get atleast 69 gear and both Dev Vengeance and Serindip Assault relics either Arkanian or just use the Oberon till i get UW. I hate the fact though that Operative's got nerfed into the ground, and my Operative is the one with the UW Main-Stat relic... I hope that the Legacy Cargo Hold will allow for transfers of Bound items, like already worn gear from one toon in your legacy to another, because if it does... then i would like give Bioware like tons of money if i had it, then promptly tell them to hire new class devs with said theoretical money, but that's a whole nother situation.

 

Back to Tactics Vanguard and crit. It seems like it would be a decent DPS increase to have Crit, because of Havoc Training, which is 30% Surge to Gut, Stockstrike, and Fire Pulse. And now that i think of it, why isnt atleast Shoulder Cannon, if not also Pulse Cannon on that list? Or, could it just be a flat 15% Surge to all skills PLZ? This would be a raw DPS increase if you think about it... Also, PLZ make Shoulder Cannon off GCD (It says it's off the GCD and it isnt, as far as i have seen, i may have to look into it again), and useable when channeling other skills! This would be a DPS increase also! Another thing, they should put Frontline Defence into Battering Ram, would reduce talent point usage, and add a new talent that could be useful, like say this.

 

Rifle Augments: Reduces the Cooldown of Stockstrike by 0.5/1.5 Seconds, also increases the damage of Stockstrike by 1.5%/3%

 

This would make the spec flow better by allowing for 2 Stockstrikes in a rotation (someone was noting that somewhere, cant remember where...) and increases the damage of it by a slight amount.

[Cotlu-Hunlon]

You just can't use off-GCD skills during channeling, that's just how it works; you can't use Retaliation on a Guardian whilst channeling Master Strike either.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

You just can't use off-GCD skills during channeling, that's just how it works; you can't use Retaliation on a Guardian whilst channeling Master Strike either.

 

Well, that's a given that you cant use Riposte while channeling Master Strike. But it makes no sense that while your using Pulse Cannon or Full Auto you cant use your Shoulder Cannon, the 2 arent connected in any way shape or form. and i think that from what ive seen Shoulder Cannon isnt truly Off the GCD, i think it purely doesnt proc a GCD, but several times i have tried to use Shoulder Cannon at the same time as say Fire Pulse or HiB, and hitting the key said on error text, This Ability is Not Ready, or something to that effect.

[Cotlu-Hunlon]

Well, that's a given that you cant use Riposte while channeling Master Strike. But it makes no sense that while your using Pulse Cannon or Full Auto you cant use your Shoulder Cannon, the 2 arent connected in any way shape or form. and i think that from what ive seen Shoulder Cannon isnt truly Off the GCD, i think it purely doesnt proc a GCD, but several times i have tried to use Shoulder Cannon at the same time as say Fire Pulse or HiB, and hitting the key said on error text, This Ability is Not Ready, or something to that effect.

 

It has 0.5 second cooldown betwen each rocket fired, otherwise you could just spam out all the rockets at once which would be far too powerful.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

It has 0.5 second cooldown betwen each rocket fired, otherwise you could just spam out all the rockets at once which would be far too powerful.

 

Not really, each rocket for me does about 1k, which in Tactics would be ~7k Damage. If it didnt have the CD of 0.5 seconds, it would be perfectly fine, if it's off GCD. Besides, Tactics single target DPS Sucks as is, they need as much love for Single Target DPS as possible...

[LanceCorporalDan]

I think your APM is lower than it should be because there should be 4 attacks in Phase 3, otherwise there is a time delay between the 3rd attack and the subsequent Gut.

 

And really Phase 3 is more like:

Ion Pulse > Ion Pulse > Hammer Shot > Ion Pulse

especially since VG's get more ammo in an actual fight from AoE damage. I won't alter the original post with what you said because then it devalues the discussion down here

 

You don't need two more Ion Pulse in phase three as you already have an additional stack of Pulse Generator from the previously used Fire Pulse. This will help on your resource management.

 

Also, I pop Battle Focus at the same time as Reserve Power Cell before I go into a blast of Pulse Cannon. Reason being, they are both on the same CD and Pulse Cannon puts the largest dent in my resources.

 

Keep in mind I play mainly PvP with my guild but still down SM content easily with them and are pushing through HM. So the two worlds may be different in terms of what to do. Just my two cents

[Cotlu-Hunlon]

You don't need two more Ion Pulse in phase three as you already have an additional stack of Pulse Generator from the previously used Fire Pulse. This will help on your resource management.

 

Ammo management doesn't need any help at all, there is *too much* ammo leftover only doing 2 Ion Pulses in phase 3 which is why I suggest 3 there because Ion pulse does more damage than Hammer Shots.

 

I already explained in my Original Post about phase 3 that Fire Pulse grants a stack, I know this thanks ...

[Gyronamics]

when at 0 crit, 1 crit gives a mere 0.021% bonus crit per point, while power is giving a full 0.2415 (buffed) force/tech power per point... yeah

To someone without any idea that would suggest that power is 10 times better than crit.

 

Crit is a damage increase over power by taking ~200 points in it.

 

Going past that all the way to ~400 there is a trivial difference in damage between crit and power with crit stacked being the marginally weaker route.

[TACeMossie]

To someone without any idea that would suggest that power is 10 times better than crit.

 

Crit is a damage increase over power by taking ~200 points in it.

 

Going past that all the way to ~400 there is a trivial difference in damage between crit and power with crit stacked being the marginally weaker route.

 

 

Good point, I should have worded it better.

 

I do advocate taking some crit though. My assault armor in dread forged gear has 3 mods + 1 enhancement, and my tactics dread forged armor has 1 mod + 1 enhancement, and if I ever get dread masters its gonna be 4/2 and 2/2. Both also have a crit crystal in the offhand.

Edited April 15, 2014 by TACeMossie

[LanceCorporalDan]

Ammo management doesn't need any help at all, there is *too much* ammo leftover only doing 2 Ion Pulses in phase 3 which is why I suggest 3 there because Ion pulse does more damage than Hammer Shots.

 

I already explained in my Original Post about phase 3 that Fire Pulse grants a stack, I know this thanks ...

 

I didn't see that part, must've misread.

 

I find myself in a different situation sometimes, but like I said I PvP mostly... and with that, you have to switch your rotation on the fly based on the situation. Either way, I still find it best to use Reserve Powercell with Battle Focus before the Pulse Cannon. As I mentioned, it puts the largest dent in resources compared to other abilities.

 

I'm not saying that 3 Ion Pulse is bad, just that it isn't needed if your Pulse Cannon comes off CD beforehand.

Edited April 15, 2014 by LanceCorporalDan