What exactly are feedback threads good for?

[varietasplus]

Why do you ask our oppinion on class changes if you do not give a **** about the feedback?

 

Doesn't it trouble you that you left a big pile of **** on scrappers with the knockdown nerf owing to the ridiculous whining from players who do not have a clue about the strengths/weaknesses of that class?

The root in exchange it totally useless, while using backblast facing the opponent is quite absurd (you understand, BACKblast, right?).

 

The Focus tree nerf was overdone as well, by removing both Force Sweep buffs you either admitted your designers went terrible wrong upon designing the tree or basicly you consider players to be utter crap, not being able to deal with even a softened one-trick pony.

 

Actually I can not even believe the sniper buff was removed temporary, I wonder what it took to step back from that glorious idea.

And yes, buffing Force Barrier was definitely to right solution to solve the problem of sages.

 

I wonder how it is possible that players and designers have such a different point of view on classes.

No wonder you want us to leave this game, at least based on the responds to FAQ.

[kaimelion]

I like the changes

[Master-Nala]

Why do you ask our oppinion on class changes if you do not give a **** about the feedback?

 

Hold this thought.

 

Doesn't it trouble you that you left a big pile of **** on scrappers with the knockdown nerf owing to the ridiculous whining from players who do not have a clue about the strengths/weaknesses of that class?

 

Two things:

 

1) This is a tough nerf on Scrappers/Concealment no doubt and takes away a really fun ability, that said;

2) As you note, this is based on feedback. You may see it as 'ridiculous whining' and it may very well be, but you can't say they don't listen to feedback while simultaneously saying they listen to feedback. You don't agree with some other players feedback and that's fair. But the devs have to consider even feedback that you or I might consider to be unreasonable or invalid.

 

Actually I can not even believe the sniper buff was removed temporary, I wonder what it took to step back from that glorious idea.

 

Feedback.

 

And yes, buffing Force Barrier was definitely to right solution to solve the problem of sages.

 

Agreed.

 

I wonder how it is possible that players and designers have such a different point of view on classes.

No wonder you want us to leave this game, at least based on the responds to FAQ.

 

Focus/Rage was a constant area of complaint for the last year, so I'm not sure that the devs should be take to task on that one. The 'Stun-locking' Operative (that always gets a giggle out of me) has also been an object of opprobrium for as long as the game has existed. Yes, it's 'bads' who do the complaining. But they can give feedback too.

[MidichIorian]

Last sorc/sage "buff" was just a disaster and did nothing. This time it feels like they've atleast tried to hit the mark but it's IMO with too many compromises or in the wrong places. If it was up to me I'd just revert insta-WW, lower the force costs and bring down fadeout to the lowest tier in the tree. There was no reason for touching Barrier and putting fadeout in tier two won't change the hybrid problem, the 7-point scarifice is too big. While having consistency on stack procs is good I don't see it changing the class much so it's basically a status quo change. Edited March 25, 2014 by MidichIorian

[varietasplus]

Hold this thought.

Two things:

 

1) This is a tough nerf on Scrappers/Concealment no doubt and takes away a really fun ability, that said;

2) As you note, this is based on feedback. You may see it as 'ridiculous whining' and it may very well be, but you can't say they don't listen to feedback while simultaneously saying they listen to feedback. You don't agree with some other players feedback and that's fair. But the devs have to consider even feedback that you or I might consider to be unreasonable or invalid.

 

1) Not only was it a fun ability, but a must for the class. Without it they do not stand a chance in the only thing they were good at: capping a node by killing the defender 1 on 1 or bursting down enemy healer. Whoever plays that class knows that a scrapper has a short window to do as much damage as possible, cause once it expires they are going down fast. I do not even really like this class, but this nerf is really pissing me off in general.

 

2) No, there is a difference here. Claiming somethings is OP without reasoning or trying to work it out is whining. Both nerfs were owing to L2P issues and to please casuals. I agree it was important that the combat team addressed the issues by proposing class changes, but the fact they did not want to hear out to opposite side (players who are aware of the advantages/disadvantages of the class) is a great problem and disrespect for all the good players reasoning against certain changes.

 

It is very easy to tell a good PVPer from a bad, you can easily identify them in warzones and yes, it is scarrying to be knocked down by a scrapper or to be lept by a smasher, but if you know your class and know your enemy, both can be dealt with.

 

Now slowly but surely each unique class mechanism and skill tree is removed, because casuals are not willing to learn about other classes but find the time to come to cry it out loud how badly they were beaten. Patch 2.7 will be awesome, snipers shooting at each other healed by operatives.

 

Now I feel better, a little whining helped me as well.

[kaimelion]

Countering smash is hard, and countering concealement without a breaker is also hard. By hard I mean the skill required to counter is alot higher, than the skill required to play these specs. 10k cleave autocrit, where alot of the PvP evolves around rather small scaled objectives is OP, especially since its so easy to accomplish. And the removal of the knockdown? OMG, now you need to deal with players fighting back. You say, that these changes remove the skill, without ever thinking, that the changes now actually require more skill, not on the taking side, but on the giving side.

 

But what should I say...arguing with someone, that thinks smash isnt OP

Edited March 25, 2014 by kaimelion

[foxmob]

Countering smash is hard, and countering concealement without a breaker is also hard. By hard I mean the skill required to counter is alot higher, than the skill required to play these specs. 10k cleave autocrit, where alot of the PvP evolves around rather small scaled objectives is OP, especially since its so easy to accomplish. And the removal of the knockdown? OMG, now you need to deal with players fighting back. You say, that these changes remove the skill, without ever thinking, that the changes now actually require more skill, not on the taking side, but on the giving side.

 

But what should I say...arguing with someone, that thinks smash isnt OP

 

you know...I wouldn't be so upset with smash if there weren't 3 or 4 of them in every WZ. and to be honest, how many times have I run into 3 or 4 smashers in solo rated queue? it's crazy. everybody's smashing. everybody. even when AP is a better aoe spec (back with the dps tank), I'd still see a 4:1 ratio of smashers to APs. it's exhausting. break that spec permanently. I'm sick to death of it. there are 4 other dps specs. do something with those (devs).

[cycao]

Countering smash is hard, and countering concealement without a breaker is also hard. By hard I mean the skill required to counter is alot higher, than the skill required to play these specs. 10k cleave autocrit, where alot of the PvP evolves around rather small scaled objectives is OP, especially since its so easy to accomplish. And the removal of the knockdown? OMG, now you need to deal with players fighting back. You say, that these changes remove the skill, without ever thinking, that the changes now actually require more skill, not on the taking side, but on the giving side.

 

But what should I say...arguing with someone, that thinks smash isnt OP

 

I play what is widely considered the ****test, weakest, most underpowered spec in the game and have no issue with smash.

Edited March 25, 2014 by cycao

[kaimelion]

I play what is widely considered the ****test, weakest, most underpowered spec in the game and have no issue with smash.

 

Might telling us what spec this is? Also, Smash is "okay" in 1v1 situations. But in a big zerg? Collateral 10k hits? Balanced? lol

Edited March 25, 2014 by kaimelion

[cycao]

Might telling us what spec this is? Also, Smash is "okay" in 1v1 situations. But in a big zerg? Collateral 10k hits? Balanced? lol

 

Plenty of abilities hit as hard or harder than smash. And it's madness assassin.

[kaimelion]

Plenty of abilities hit as hard or harder than smash. And it's madness assassin.

 

Are these abilities autocrits? Are these abilities cleaves? Can you use these abilities every 7GCDs? Do these abilities cost no resources? Are these abilities not RNG dependant?

Edited March 25, 2014 by kaimelion

[cycao]

Are these abilities autocrits? Are these abilities cleaves? Can you use these abilities every 7GCDs? Do these abilities cost no resources?

 

Which classes are you currently sucking at when it comes to rage/focus?

[kaimelion]

Which classes are you currently sucking at when it comes to rage/focus?

 

Every class that I need atleast a half decent positioning with, which is hard to get, without running into other people, who will then eat smashes.

Edited March 25, 2014 by kaimelion

[waterboytkd]

Are these abilities autocrits? Are these abilities cleaves? Can you use these abilities every 7GCDs? Do these abilities cost no resources? Are these abilities not RNG dependant?

 

What ability do smash monkeys use that costs no resources? Aside from Force Leap/Force Charge, which are rage/focus builders?

 

Sure, Smash is good right now, pre 2.7, but I've never had problems with it. Granted, I play Carnage/Combat mostly, so maybe saying the best thing to kill Smashers is Marauders. But if I'm not playing Carnage/Combat, I'm playing a deception sin, and still, no problems with Smash monkeys.

 

Seems like in this particular instance, Smash is the rock to your scissors. The Scissors to your paper. The paper to your--well, you get the idea.

[AdrianDmitruk]

What ability do smash monkeys use that costs no resources? Aside from Force Leap/Force Charge, which are rage/focus builders?

 

Sure, Smash is good right now, pre 2.7, but I've never had problems with it. Granted, I play Carnage/Combat mostly, so maybe saying the best thing to kill Smashers is Marauders. But if I'm not playing Carnage/Combat, I'm playing a deception sin, and still, no problems with Smash monkeys.

 

Seems like in this particular instance, Smash is the rock to your scissors. The Scissors to your paper. The paper to your--well, you get the idea.

 

To answer the actual question here, smash spec absolutely swims in resource, or at least it does for guardians/juggs (I never did get around to making a marauder so can't speak to that). Yes attacks cost focus but when your enrage (which you need to use for the stacks anyway) gives not only the 6 instant rage but also another 6 over time on a short cooldown...I don't see how it's even possible for a smash jugg to be resource starved unless he's RPing out of combat lol. Our armor debuff which we have to use for some filler generates a lot of resource too, and IIRC blade storm is free. Resource management is nonexistent in smash, you simply have/generate more resource than your attacks cost.

 

The problem with smash wasn't the damage per se, it was the damage combined with the ease of delivering such damage combined with lolezmode nonexistent resource management. A faceroll spec if there ever was one.

 

Again, can't speak for marauders as I never made one.

Edited March 25, 2014 by AdrianDmitruk

[kaimelion]

What ability do smash monkeys use that costs no resources? Aside from Force Leap/Force Charge, which are rage/focus builders?

 

Sure, Smash is good right now, pre 2.7, but I've never had problems with it. Granted, I play Carnage/Combat mostly, so maybe saying the best thing to kill Smashers is Marauders. But if I'm not playing Carnage/Combat, I'm playing a deception sin, and still, no problems with Smash monkeys.

 

Seems like in this particular instance, Smash is the rock to your scissors. The Scissors to your paper. The paper to your--well, you get the idea.

 

Force Scream is free and Smash is free too (double saber throw even builds focus in Rage). Both specs you mentioned you played have AoE reduction + alot of active cooldowns.

Smash is not the rock in this instance. Smash is the atomic bomb, as soon as there are 2 or more targets to hit.

[kaimelion]

To answer the actual question here, smash spec absolutely swims in resource, or at least it does for guardians/juggs (I never did get around to making a marauder so can't speak to that). Yes attacks cost focus but when your enrage (which you need to use for the stacks anyway) gives not only the 6 instant rage but also another 6 over time on a short cooldown...I don't see how it's even possible for a smash jugg to be resource starved unless he's RPing out of combat lol.

 

Again, can't speak for marauders as I never made one.

 

Same goes for marauders. When you need to use your basic attack, you are doing it wrong.

[waterboytkd]

Force Scream is free and Smash is free too (double saber throw even builds focus in Rage). Both specs you mentioned you played have AoE reduction + alot of active cooldowns.

Smash is not the rock in this instance. Smash is the atomic bomb, as soon as there are 2 or more targets to hit.

Maybe you should take a closer look at the spec. Smash is not free for them.

 

So Force Scream, which is decent single-target damage. Double Saber Throw is not normally a part of their rotation, and is only used situationally. So they have one ability that's free.

 

And you're right, both those specs have abilities that are good against Smash, which is why they are advantaged over Smash. Which is why it's a rock-paper-scissors metagame. Smash isn't the atomic bomb. For some specs, it's very easy to fight. Even if they're next to each other.

[Clasmae]

Well duhh...Focus/Rage is op, its a spec for nooby Maras and Juggs, that requires 0 RNG and everything is just practically given to you, but great and decent players got a hold of them which was a terrible thing to have happen...for sorcs/sages specifically

 

What ability do smash monkeys use that costs no resources? Aside from Force Leap/Force Charge, which are rage/focus builders?.

 

Lol way to dodge the issue

 

Sure, Smash is good right now, pre 2.7, but I've never had problems with it. Granted, I play Carnage/Combat mostly, so maybe saying the best thing to kill Smashers is Marauders. But if I'm not playing Carnage/Combat, I'm playing a deception sin, and still, no problems with Smash monkeys.

 

Yea, if you never had a problem with this spec with either of these two classes...makes me wonder if the ppl you were facing running Rage/Focus knew what they were doing...or you're just trying to flex on forums?

Edited March 25, 2014 by Clasmae

[waterboytkd]

Lol way to dodge the issue

 

In what way did I dodge the issue? I'll admit, I forgot about Force Scream. But other than Rage builders, that's the only free attack they can make.

 

Yea, if you never had a problem with this spec with either of these two classes...makes me wonder if the ppl you were facing running Rage/Focus knew what they were doing...or you're just trying to flex on forums?

 

I mean, I don't know everyone who plays the spec. Maybe they're terrible. Maybe they're good.

 

But both of the specs I mentioned have 30% AoE damage reduction from talents as well as good defensive cooldowns. And one of them has the same defensive cooldowns as Smash Mara/Sent, which are great defensive cooldowns. So that means a fight between a Carnage Mara and a Smash Mara will drag a bit...and do you know how good Smash sustained dps is? TERRIBLE! And do you know how good Carnage burst is when you're talking about a single target? As good, if not better than, Smash's. Again, pointing out that there are specs that are favored over Smash. It's rock-paper-scissors a lot of the time. It sucks if Smash beats you, but every time you wreck a spec that's soft against you, you know how that person feels.

Edited March 25, 2014 by waterboytkd

[Clasmae]

In what way did I dodge the issue? I'll admit, I forgot about Force Scream. But other than Rage builders, that's the only free attack they can make.

 

If I'm not mistaken, he was clearly pointing to the fact that they rarely have any problems with resources in a sarcastic manner

 

 

 

So that means a fight between a Carnage Mara and a Smash Mara will drag a bit...and do you know how good Smash sustained dps is? TERRIBLE! And do you know how good Carnage burst is when you're talking about a single target? As good, if not better than, Smash's...It sucks if Smash beats you, but every time you wreck a spec that's soft against you, you know how that person feels.

 

Yea, as a person who also runs Carnage, there is a high chance for Carnage to overcome the class, but what you are missing is that, everything that Smash contains is guaranteed, there is no chance that they will not have an ability proc when needed, will not run out of resources during the fight like Carnage is very capable of doing if the RNG isn't in your favor, and they don't have burst windows within 4.5 sec intervals, they have an excellent VT when it crits, and with 30% AoE damage reduction...you will still get hit for a decent amount of damage from the autocrit and will throw another one at you a couple secs later in a number of ways to reduce the CD on smash and gain 3 stacks of Shockwave. So just simply saying someone is "TERRIBLE!" if they lose to this spec is a no, no at the hands of a good player

Edited March 26, 2014 by Clasmae

[Jherad]

What exactly are feedback threads good for?

 

 

http://img.pandawhale.com/40989-Family-Guy-Peter-flossing-with-0dVo.gif

[kaimelion]

Maybe you should take a closer look at the spec. Smash is not free for them.

 

So Force Scream, which is decent single-target damage. Double Saber Throw is not normally a part of their rotation, and is only used situationally. So they have one ability that's free.

 

And you're right, both those specs have abilities that are good against Smash, which is why they are advantaged over Smash. Which is why it's a rock-paper-scissors metagame. Smash isn't the atomic bomb. For some specs, it's very easy to fight. Even if they're next to each other.

 

Smash IS free. If you ever played a Smasher you know, that their resourcemanagement is a cake.

And I dont know how often I need so say this. In 1v1 situations, smash is okay (still pretty strong though), it's the overpowered cleave, that's just so wrong.

[waterboytkd]

If I'm not mistaken, he was clearly pointing to the fact that they rarely have any problems with resources in a sarcastic manner

 

When I asked which abilities were free, and he replied with Force Scream and Smash, and even mentioned Double Saber Throw (which is incorrect, as Smash is not free), I guess I don't see that as "clearly" pointing out their easy resource management "in a sarcastic manner." What I see is someone trying to tell me that Smash is free, which it isn't in that spec.

 

The reason I harp on this is that the VAST majority of complaints I see about Smash on these forums comes from people that demonstrate they not only have never played the class, but they in fact have no idea how it works. I mean, when I see people calling for a nerf to Smash/Force Sweep for all Knights/Warriors, because it's an AoE that does 10K+ damage, it's very clear that person has no clue what they're on about, and are just nerd-raging on the forums.

 

Yea, as a person who also runs Carnage, there is a high chance for Carnage to overcome the class, but what you are missing is that, everything that Smash contains is guaranteed, there is no chance that they will not have an ability proc when needed, will not run out of resources during the fight like Carnage is very capable of doing if the RNG isn't in your favor, and they don't have burst windows within 4.5 sec intervals, they have an excellent VT when it crits, and with 30% AoE damage reduction...you will still get hit for a decent amount of damage from the autocrit and will throw another one at you a couple secs later in a number of ways to reduce the CD on smash and gain 3 stacks of Shockwave. So just simply saying someone is "TERRIBLE!" if they lose to this spec is a no, no at the hands of a good player

 

Two things: first, losing to a good player happens regardless of the classes/specs involved. I never said anyone was "TERRIBLE!" for losing to Smash. I said Smash's sustained dps was "TERRIBLE!"

 

Second, who cares HOW a spec works, as long as the end results are balanced against other classes? I mean, Smash doesn't use RNG. Carnage does. If "there is a high chance for Carnage to overcome the class", then what does that mean on the importance of RNG vs no RNG?

 

Now whether you consider Smash balanced against other classes is the actual argument. I don't see the problem in it. Some specs beat it, some lose to it. It's AoE quality is great against people who don't realize that clustering is bad when you see a Marauder 30m away. The class suffers greatly against those who do realize that. In my experience, it performs well enough to be played, without being so OP as to ruin games. But that's my experience.

 

 

Smash IS free. If you ever played a Smasher you know, that their resourcemanagement is a cake.

And I dont know how often I need so say this. In 1v1 situations, smash is okay (still pretty strong though), it's the overpowered cleave, that's just so wrong.

 

See everything above. Especially my last paragraph. Beating an "overpowered cleave" just requires some situational awareness.

[Clasmae]

because it's an AoE that does 10K+ damage, it's very clear that person has no clue what they're on about, and are just nerd-raging on the forums.

 

Thats exactly why ppl QQ about it...what other class you know hits that high on an AoE attack...and just simply saying if you see a smasher from a distance and reacting helps (first of all, as soon as you see him in 30m and see what stance he is running he is already on you), and how long does it take to Force Charge + Smash = amazing results?

 

 

 

Two things: first, losing to a good player happens regardless of the classes/specs involved. I never said anyone was "TERRIBLE!" for losing to Smash. I said Smash's sustained dps was "TERRIBLE!"

Correct, you said "it sucks if Smash beats you"...but shutting down Carnage is just too easy for another mara....Gore + Ravage "Oh? Obfuscate"....Execute lol i'll eat that.....Slaughter procs (very easy to tell cause you flash in your mh lightsaber color) Gore + VT/Execute "Lmao Nice try Force Choke" How are you gonna fight off smash..."Ehh..i'll obfuscate em?" Shockwave will outlast that..."IR" Sure mezz me I'll smash your *** as soon as you hit me.."Force Choke"Just wasting time. If that wasn't just a mildly funny walkthrough of that fight then i want to see another one..

 

Second, who cares HOW a spec works, as long as the end results are balanced against other classes? I mean, Smash doesn't use RNG. Carnage does. If "there is a high chance for Carnage to overcome the class", then what does that mean on the importance of RNG vs no RNG?

 

Eh...meant Rage/Focus not Carnage to overcome the class due to how easy it is to shut Carnage down...but i do agree that Carnage's single target is levels better than Rage/Focus if everything goes right