Why Raise the Level Cap Again?

[Damask_Rose]

Have fun never having an abundance of content then I guess?

 

Since my interest in content isn't dependent on acquiring new gear, I already have an abundance of content and a level cap increase will not make older content irrelevant for me. Because I mostly solo and don't raid at all, out-leveling content opens up a lot of content for me to solo so I can see the stories. Your old, obsolete content becomes my fresh new content.

[kasanth]

I played only one game that refused to raise the level cap after going from 50 to 60.

That game had the plug pulled years ago.

 

They had everyone sitting at level 60 for years and kept adding new content for level

60s to do, and new gear to get. Problem was, people that didn't raid all the time was

left with leveling another alt.

 

Most of the players left within a few months after it was confirmed that there would

never be a new level cap. The hardcores that were able to keep up with the latest gear

stuck around. But even a lot of them left within the year.

 

No new level cap is fine for people that raid, raid, raid, and raid some more.

As well as PVPers. But those that like to do more, well, theres only so many

times you can level a new character to the same level.

Want to kill a game? Don't raise the level cap.

[Dokar]

With what they did the last time to our skill trees I had to get to 52 to get all the abilities back I had at 50 before the cap was raised.

[Raansu]

I played only one game that refused to raise the level cap after going from 50 to 60.

That game had the plug pulled years ago.

 

They had everyone sitting at level 60 for years and kept adding new content for level

60s to do, and new gear to get. Problem was, people that didn't raid all the time was

left with leveling another alt.

 

Most of the players left within a few months after it was confirmed that there would

never be a new level cap. The hardcores that were able to keep up with the latest gear

stuck around. But even a lot of them left within the year.

 

No new level cap is fine for people that raid, raid, raid, and raid some more.

As well as PVPers. But those that like to do more, well, theres only so many

times you can level a new character to the same level.

Want to kill a game? Don't raise the level cap.

 

Funny, that didn't stop FFXI from leaving the level cap at 75 for almost 10 years and running just fine. Maybe that game you were playing just had terrible content.

[Reno_Tarshil]

Why is raising the level cap considered lazy again?

[Cernow]

And no I don't want to bother to continue to level up my characters because they are already capped. How about releasing relevant content instead? Sorry, but raising the level cap is terrible. You like leveling so much then go make another alt.

 

Such as? New tiers of endgame gear that make characters more and more powerful against existing content, thus making existing content irrelevant in the same way a level cap raise would?

 

This game, like most MMOs, is about vertical progression in some form or other, be it levels, tiers of gear or whatever. There are a few MMOs that offer horizontal progression but this will never be one of them, it's just not designed that way.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Why is raising the level cap considered lazy again?

 

No clue what that dude is talking about lol

Edited March 23, 2014 by ZETA_SCORPII

[arunav]

A Nightmare Mode for all flashpoints at level 60 would solve the flashpoint issue. In fact, it'd make all the current level 50 HM flashpoints much more viable for endgame characters than they are currently.

 

Perhaps some sort of mode beyond Nightmare for the old operations could be made for level 60 characters.

 

I agree, or simply changing the mobs and bosses to level 60. That would be great, actually, and make for more endgame content than we have at 55.

 

The problem, though, is the team at BW is so small now I don't think this is likely to happen.

 

So we'll have the same problem we've had since launch, which was finally starting to get a little better - not enough endgame PVE content.

 

For people that like doing HM FPs in addition to Ops, just for fun instead of gear, it will really make the situation much worse, because all the good ones will be obsolete. We'll see Red Reaper (admittedly been waiting for HM of this since launch) and Colicoid War Game HM I'm guessing, alongside some of the newer ones coming up.

 

And for folks claiming new FPs and content will replace the older ones, I would point you to Czerka Core Meltdown, or try out the 2.7 ones on PTS. They aren't as good as what was made for the original release - EA doesn't give BW enough resources to make them that way.

 

And, yes, I'd rather play older content that's of high quality than have a few newer FPs of lower quality as HMs.

Edited March 23, 2014 by arunav

[Kalfear]

I dont see why anyone would complain about increased level cap

 

I just resubd 2 days ago

Played (was logged in longer but played is 10 hours) 10 hours over two days and im 55 on main

 

no xp boosts beyond the expected rested xp for being unsubbed 12 months

All I did was Black Hole dailes twice

Illum dailies twice

Section X once

CZ Dailes twice

And about 1/3rd Makeb (if that)

 

So at the insane rate of xp gain, why would anyone complain about more levels.

 

Even the most casual of casual can do 10 hours play in the shortest period of time

 

Now if they put in 5 more levels and it took to go from 55-60 the same amount of play time as it took to go from 1-55, then I could see and understand some complaints (personally Id love it but I hate ultra easy mode leveling).

 

But I honestly dont see that happening

[ZETA_SCORPII]

I agree, or simply changing the mobs and bosses to level 60. That would be great, actually, and make for more endgame content than we have at 55.

 

The problem, though, is the team at BW is so small now I don't think this is likely to happen.

 

So we'll have the same problem we've had since launch, which was finally starting to get a little better - not enough endgame PVE content.

 

For people that like doing HM FPs in addition to Ops, just for fun instead of gear, it will really make the situation much worse, because all the good ones will be obsolete. We'll see Red Reaper (admittedly been waiting for HM of this since launch) and Colicoid War Game HM I'm guessing.

 

The devs did say that HM versions of the upcoming tactical FP's will be released later on so that will be nice.

[kasanth]

Funny, that didn't stop FFXI from leaving the level cap at 75 for almost 10 years and running just fine. Maybe that game you were playing just had terrible content.

 

 

 

 

It was Everquest Online Adventures, and it too lasted almost 10 years.

Would of lasted longer if they would have given more then just the raiders something to do

besides repeat the same leveling content over again for the 8th time.

Edited March 23, 2014 by kasanth

[DarthDymond]

The devs did say that HM versions of the upcoming tactical FP's will be released later on so that will be nice.

I've just assumed the reason they didn't release a HM of KDY and have said there won't be HMs in 2.7 for the Korriban/Tython FPs is that they're holding them back until the level cap increase. Between those three, Colicoid War Games and Red Reaper they'll be on par with the amount of HMs that were available the last time the level cap increased.

[BadOrb]

Been playing MMO's since UO. Doesn't mean I have to like level caps. I quit WoW for the very fact that the level cap was getting out of hand. I quit FFXI because the level cap had stayed at 75 for almost a decade then out of nowhere starts raising it to 99 making all the content over the years completely worthless. Abyssea killed that game. 5 levels didn't bother me too much in swtor but I still hate it. If it goes up to 60 I probably will leave. No point in playing a dying game that also loves to continue to kill content while adding new content at a ridiculously slow pace.

 

Level cap increases are not content, simple as that. Its lazy and it boggles my mind that people actually are in favor of such a lazy design.

 

Well going from 55-60 wont exactly kill too much content really now will it ? You will still be able to do the old content all the way from 55-60 and even level up again in the process. The only thing this minute level cap increase changes is it will bring in new content , but most of which will be spread out over the next year or so. Now if it becomes a cap increase of 10 levels then you would have a point. I do think it will aand it will probably be 5 levels again though.

 

I wonder when it will be , I have a feeling it will be towards the end of the year , but it could be with the release of the second NIM in June , but I doubt it. It does cause me a dilemma though , a personal goal , which was a far fetched one when I planned it , is to get all 16 advanced classes to 55 ( was 50 ) and I have 12 done and 2 almost done. So then , what do I do now , only play on my remaining 4 characters and go for it , or wait and see when the cap will go up ?

 

Cheers,

 

BadOrb.

Edited March 23, 2014 by BadOrb

[ZETA_SCORPII]

I've just assumed the reason they didn't release a HM of KDY and have said there won't be HMs in 2.7 for the Korriban/Tython FPs is that they're holding them back until the level cap increase. Between those three, Colicoid War Games and Red Reaper they'll be on par with the amount of HMs that were available the last time the level cap increased.

 

Sounds about right to me, I haven't heard confirmation on a KDY HM version, just the ones coming out in 2.7 but it wouldn't surprise me. All I know is that we continue to get new content and loads of stuff via the CM so I'm happy. I've never done player housing so I'm interested in that as well

[RaiderMid]

It's just speculation at this point. They might add NM modes for all FPs but it's hard to imagine they will recycle OPs like they did with RotHC. That storyline is over and the beginning of the new storyline is on it's way with the 2.7 FPs.

 

Wishful thinking but I would hope for no less than 2 new Ops based on the new storyline with the level cap increase.

[Kettu]

Has Bioware confirmed the level increase? And if so, where, please? I have missed this.

[DarthDymond]

Wishful thinking but I would hope for no less than 2 new Ops based on the new storyline with the level cap increase.

I hope you're right about that, because I would see only having one max-level Op going over just as well as only having one full Op at launch did*. Even if there almost certainly will be a TC-style boss too.

[BadOrb]

Has Bioware confirmed the level increase? And if so, where, please? I have missed this.

 

Yes at the cantina tour and they added that we will find out more sooner rather than later.

http://dulfy.net/2014/03/23/swtor-boulder-colorado-cantina-tour-flashdrive-files/

 

Cheers,

 

BadOrb.

[DarthDymond]

Has Bioware confirmed the level increase? And if so, where, please? I have missed this.

Courtesy of Dulfy:

Here is the Q&A [from the Boulder, CO Cantina Tour] provided by StellaArtois from JC

• The level cap IS going up and we should hear something about that sooner than later
  

 

Plus the announcement on the Roadmap:

"Expect to see two digital expansions in 2014 just like you did last year, with one similar to Galactic Starfighter in scope [this is almost certainly Strongholds] and one more closely resembling Rise of the Hutt Cartel."

Seems likely the RotHC-sized DLC will include a level cap increase, especially given the comment at the Cantina Tour.

 

EDIT: BadOrb beat me to it.

Edited March 23, 2014 by DarthDymond

[kirorx]

Why is raising the level cap considered lazy again?

 

Probably we are afraid we will just get new rehashed old flashpoints with maybe only 1 or 2 new ones like they did last time.

 

Basically well just have to regrind doing a lot of the same content again, much like we have been doing.

 

Hard mode red reaper wouldn't be something new.

 

As far as pvp goes, no gain for PvPers at all, they just end up in obsolete gear the have to regrind once again with only 1 new warzone.....huttball, that would be really frustrating because pvp gear has been updated and outdated too any times already

Edited March 23, 2014 by kirorx

[Eanelinea]

but I doubt it. It does cause me a dilemma though , a personal goal , which was a far fetched one when I planned it , is to get all 16 advanced classes to 55 ( was 50 ) and I have 12 done and 2 almost done. So then , what do I do now , only play on my remaining 4 characters and go for it , or wait and see when the cap will go up ?

 

Oi! What's taking you so long? Why, I have 18 55s and are working on my last 4. No life here whatsoever. Dang game has caught me by the bosom and won't let go!

 

(I DO have that many toons/55s, but I'm messing with you about taking too long)

[arunav]

Probably we are afraid we will just get new rehashed old flashpoints with maybe only 1 or 2 new ones like they did last time.

 

Not only this about the FPs, but there will be about 6 again. It takes that portion of PVE endgame, something that could be fun even if you are over-geared for it, and makes it completely boring. For no other reason than BW insists on increasing the level cap.

 

Take a look at Group Finder right now, and look at what's available for (50-55) FPs and then 55. Imagine both were in one catagory right now at 55, and how much more fun it would be to queue up for, especially since the newer FPs generally aren't as good.

 

At 55, the older 50 HM FPs are so easy, you can't in earnest queue for them and have a fun experience. Raise the cap to 60, and all of those instances will be even more obsolete.

 

And this is in a game that doesn't produce endgame content at a brisk pace - EA simply doesn't provide the resources.

 

Same goes for new Ops. We'll be back to having 1-2, and then perhaps they'll add 2 next year.

 

Why not keep the cap at 55 and add more to the game instead of taking things away that are enjoyable? The 50 Ops are so easy they aren't fun. Same thing will happen to the 55 ones now.

 

Pretty much all your players are going to buy a new planet and whatever else comes with it no matter if you raise the cap or not - everyone will want to play through what's been made.

Edited March 24, 2014 by arunav

[Arkerus]

I think what a lot of you are missing is that bumping the level cap is a necessary evil.

 

yes, yes. I get the whole "horizontal progression" thing. And yes, there are some great things about horizontal progression. I think a lot of you have already named most of them. The problem is, however, that horizontal progression doesn't solve the longetivity problem.

 

If you don't periodically raise the generic "power" of a player in a game such as this, the natural human tendency is see the game as no longer expanding. Sure, you can add tons of news gear sets or create new worlds but eventually level capping (and the math behind it) start to cap your character. They can't just release NEW, more powerful armor sets either because then someone at fresh 55 is so far behind the curve they might as well be level 54...and stuck there.

 

In progression games such as this you can only get 3 to 4 effective gear levels into progression before a fresh level cap player is simply too far behind. Imagine being a fresh 55 level player and being 7 or 8 gear levels behind the "max" gear level. It would simply be too staggering and a person would stop playing. It would really hurt alts and anyone who wanted to get a new character to max gear level would be stuck as a fresh 55. Most likely the content that a fresh 55 would do would be abandoned so gearing up would be even harder.

 

You might say, "ok, make basic comms always good for the 3rd to max gear level". Well that starts to look really bad when you have green level 55 gear and suddenly basic comms buy gear that is basically double your effective power level. The gear jump would be absurd.

 

By raising the level cap, the developers have a chance to "reset the game." It's almost a new start for everyone. Now the journey for a new player (and old players) is level 60 (for example). Now when you hit 60 you aren't massive levels behind the power curve.

 

Now I do agree there are some issues. Power creep is a huge issue. I hope bioware has a plan to handle it. Old content does become obsolete. It would be great so have a "classic" mode of operations where you are de-leveled so old content is still fun and challenging.

[arunav]

I think what a lot of you are missing is that bumping the level cap is a necessary evil.

 

yes, yes. I get the whole "horizontal progression" thing. And yes, there are some great things about horizontal progression. I think a lot of you have already named most of them. The problem is, however, that horizontal progression doesn't solve the longetivity problem.

 

If you don't periodically raise the generic "power" of a player in a game such as this, the natural human tendency is see the game as no longer expanding. Sure, you can add tons of news gear sets or create new worlds but eventually level capping (and the math behind it) start to cap your character. They can't just release NEW, more powerful armor sets either because then someone at fresh 55 is so far behind the curve they might as well be level 54...and stuck there.

 

In progression games such as this you can only get 3 to 4 effective gear levels into progression before a fresh level cap player is simply too far behind. Imagine being a fresh 55 level player and being 7 or 8 gear levels behind the "max" gear level. It would simply be too staggering and a person would stop playing. It would really hurt alts and anyone who wanted to get a new character to max gear level would be stuck as a fresh 55. Most likely the content that a fresh 55 would do would be abandoned so gearing up would be even harder.

 

You might say, "ok, make basic comms always good for the 3rd to max gear level". Well that starts to look really bad when you have green level 55 gear and suddenly basic comms buy gear that is basically double your effective power level. The gear jump would be absurd.

 

By raising the level cap, the developers have a chance to "reset the game." It's almost a new start for everyone. Now the journey for a new player (and old players) is level 60 (for example). Now when you hit 60 you aren't massive levels behind the power curve.

 

Now I do agree there are some issues. Power creep is a huge issue. I hope bioware has a plan to handle it. Old content does become obsolete. It would be great so have a "classic" mode of operations where you are de-leveled so old content is still fun and challenging.

 

I don't agree that, at this point, keeping the cap at 55 would become too much of a burden to overcome for fresh 55 players.

 

All that would need to be done is some balancing with what drops in HM FPs and older Ops, and what basic and elite comms can purchase.

 

If we can all agree on something, it's gearing in this game is generally easy. 2nd BiS is craftable/purchasable, but is so easy to obtain it's usually not worth the credits (unless you have a lot doing nothing, or want a main-hand hilt/barrel quickly).

 

I agree with you that the cap would need to be raised eventually. Just not so soon after 2.0. It's a waste to discard all the new content that has been introduced since, not to mention limiting to endgame players.

 

The reason you hear most often for leaving is a lack of enough raids and FPs at 55, and the output being too slow. There will always be players that burn through whatever is released, but being here since January 2012 and playing through the classes and all content slowly, I can say this is accurate. There just wasn't enough to do at endgame in 2012, and now that we have something a little bit better, it's a terrible time to revert back.

 

Guilds need enough Ops, FPs, and other activities to keep people engaged. So many folks in mine were excited by Oricon and GSF. But it's been so long since any new Op has arrived, and the maps for GSF have been really limited. We've seen a lot of people leave as a consequence.

 

And these are players that have also been around a long time, and want to stick to SWTOR as their MMO of choice. Some are also disillusioned by how much is focused on the CM, but that is a different topic.

Edited March 24, 2014 by arunav

[Arkerus]

I don't agree that, at this point, keeping the cap at 55 would become too much of a burden to overcome for fresh 55 players.

 

All that would need to be done is some balancing with what drops in HM FPs and older Ops, and what basic and elite comms can purchase.

 

If we can all agree on something, it's gearing in this game is generally easy. 2nd BiS is craftable/purchasable, but is so easy to obtain it's usually not worth the credits (unless you have a lot doing nothing, or want a main-hand hilt/barrel quickly).

 

I agree with you that the cap would need to be raised eventually. Just not so soon after 2.0. It's a waste to discard all the new content that has been introduced since, not to mention limiting to endgame players.

 

The reason you hear most often for leaving is a lack of enough raids and FPs at 55, and the output being too slow. There will always be players that burn through whatever is released, but being here since January 2012 and playing through the classes and all content slowly, I can say this is accurate. There just wasn't enough to do at endgame in 2012, and now that we have something a little bit better, it's a terrible time to revert back.

 

Guilds need enough Ops, FPs, and other activities to keep people engaged. So many folks in mine were excited by Oricon and GSF. But it's been so long since any new Op has arrived, and the maps for GSF have been really limited. We've seen a lot of people leave as a consequence.

 

And these are players that have also been around a long time, and want to stick to SWTOR as their MMO of choice. Some are also disillusioned by how much is focused on the CM, but that is a different topic.

 

You can disagree all you want but new content will push the power curve up even further away from base level 55. The further you go, the more people are turned off by the power curve. Some power curve is needed and drives the games longetivity. It gives us all something to enjoy and strive for. They already completely removed one tier of gear. I don't think we want to see another whole set disappear.

 

Generally speaking, I agree with the level cap increase. I do, however, see the dangers in it.