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DISCUSSION: So what, exactly, is a GSF Ace?


Sidenti

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I think gunship is one of the easiest ships to separate the best from the rest...On Ebon hawk there is a handful of GS pilots on each side that absolutely must be accounted for or they will absolutely wreck all kinds of havoc outside of those elites though everyone else is just another GS. No big deal...
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Agreed, but now I'm really starting to worry that this brand of contempt is something that's pervasive across the GSF community. I mean, I'll even sit and agree, some of our weapons are a little overdone, but does the sentiment against Gunships now extend to anyone who touches them?

 

Not only is this kinda personally hurtful, it's really tarnishing the image I have of GSF folks being a nicer breed of PvPer.

 

First ... I have flown and mastered every type of ship. My first big GSF character (pub side) flew primarily a Gunship because it fit his character. And at that time, I documented quite extensively how I felt that Gunships were unbalanced compared to Scouts and Strikes, as they offered the most raw firepower at both long and short range and the most tactical flexibility.

 

Eventually I got tired of flying the same build every other Gunship pilot was flying (there is only one or two viable builds of Quarrel after all, and all are very similar), and when 2.6 came out I devoted myself to innovating new builds that could be viable. That's how I came up with my TDM Blackbolt--if you've flown against Callem or Shayd on The Ebon Hawk, I think it's obvious it's pretty successful.

 

And when flying that Blackbolt, I will always go after Gunships the moment I spot one on my scanners. Always, even if there are much closer targets. Again and again, I'll kill the same Gunship pilots -- a couple of times, people have interpreted it as some kind of personal vendetta, and they log onto an Imperial character just to chew me out.

 

But it's not personal--it's just pragmatic. If a Gunship is not on the run, then it's getting kills. It's not trying to get kills, like a Scout or Strike. It's getting them. Any mildly competent Gunship pilot simply doesn't miss often. Every 2.7 seconds, one of my teammates (or me, or both!) is taking a crap-ton of damage from someone 15km away who we aren't even engaged with.

 

I think that's why people who fly Scouts and Strikes (and even Bombers) find Gunships so frustrating. Being hit by a railgun is an interruption, an interjection, an invasion of the moment. Perhaps I'm giving chase to someone in my Scout, zeroing in for the kill. Or perhaps I'm being chased, and I'm getting a buzz from skillfully evading, flying through canyons or weaving in and out of asteroids as I try to escape my pursuers. Both examples are cinematic moments of fun and exhilaration. We see each others' lasers whizzing by or damaging our shields. We hear missile locks see rocket contrails.Both examples involve a mental engagement between myself and another pilot. Surely we've all felt it ... you look at the person in your target window and you feel like you can sense their anxiety, frustration, excitement and exultation. It's predator and prey, up close and personal.

 

Then, all of a sudden, out of nowhere and without any warning, my shields are gone, along with either a chunk of my hull or half my engine and weapon energy. Was it the pilot I was chasing? One of the pilots who was chasing me? No, it was someone parked 15km away that I didn't even know was there. There was no connection with that Gunship pilot ... no mental engagement ... no bond of combat and respect. They're just some turret that shot me while I was busy doing something else. There was nothing I could've done ahead of time to avoid the railgun shot--all I can do is react.

 

Even the help of an ally Gunship can feel frustrating and unwanted. If I've chased Itkovian halfway across the map, exchanged several duels with him to the point where both our ships are smoking, and then suddenly he dies to some Gunship who wasn't even involved ... it's frustrating.

 

Now of course it's a team game, and there are few pure 1v1 duels, and the vast majority of kills are the product of team effort. But there's just something that sometimes makes Gunship pilots feel removed from the team. Maybe it's because GSF is so centered on spatial awareness and relative positioning ... at least for Scouts, Strikes, and Bombers. But for Gunships ... if they aren't under attack, they effectively aren't playing the same game. They are playing a mini-game where they hold down the mouse button and then release it when the cursor is over a small circle. I say this as someone who has two mastered Gunships.

 

And I don't blame them. Gunships are a binary class of ship. They're either on the run or they are killing, and rarely can they do both at once. Whereas Strikes and Scouts (and even Bombers) are in a more constant dance of being on both offense and defense at once. But Gunships simply can't play the same game. If someone decides to kill them, they are going to die unless they flee to allies. Previously it was capital ships in TDM--now it's Bomber fences.

 

Now retreating to allies is a valid, intelligent tactic, and I would not expect Gunship pilots to do anything else. I wouldn't even say they are unbalanced tactics, though that may just be because I'm on The Ebon Hawk, where 100% Gunship/Bomber wings are not common.

 

But either way, can't you see why it might be a source of frustration? By the nature of its build and best available tactics, a Gunship pilot is always incentivized to be "the other". If it's on offense, it's interjecting itself into other people's battles from 15km out. If it's under attack, it's only real resort against a skilled pilot is to flee to drones and mines--to extract itself from Scouts' and Strikes' notion of combat.

 

It's like the kid who steals your toys, and then when you try and confront him about it, he runs to his parents and they believe his side of the story. You're left with nothing but frustration and a vague sense of "not fair".

 

Ultimately, this frustration leads to Scout and Strike pilots either playing GSF less frequently or switching to a Gunship or Bomber themselves. I've already had to do so in Domination matches, because Scouts and Strikes simply aren't as useful at taking and holding nodes as Gunships and Bombers. The "spatial dance" (i.e. traditional dogfighting) simply isn't the best use of anyone's time in Domination.

 

So yes ... when I am in TDM flying my Blackbolt, I have no choice but to keep all Gunships on the run, all the time. I am the hard counter to them, but they are also the hard counter to me. I cannot do anything to avoid being shot by a railgun except to kill every Gunship I see. Keeping them on the run or dead is the only way to keep their K/D spread negative. If I let up for even a second, a single Gunship is going to get at least one kill (likely me), and potentially many more kills and assists, before someone else kills them. Whereas I know that a Strike or Scout, even piloted by an enemy ace, is going to be putting itself in harm's way if it wants to get any kills, because it has to get in range of its prey.

 

It's nothing personal at all--and I'm sorry if anyone perceives me as "punishing" Gunship pilots. It's just a result of the tension BioWare has created between Scouts/Strikes and Gunships/Bombers.

 

My best piece of advice to everyone is to really try and fly at least one ship in every class regularly, even if you find it difficult. That way, instead of us naturally (as humans are wont to do) dividing ourselves into "Gunship pilots" and "Strike pilots" and "Scout pilots", we're all just "pilots". That way, we can all have more reasonable discussions about balance, without so many accusations of bias or agenda.

 

I know it's difficult, because we all want to identify with "our ship". All of our iconic pilot heroes have "their ship" and rarely mixed it up. Luke didn't fly an A-wing or a Y-wing. Maverick didn't moonlight in an F-16 Falcon. But I really do think mixing it up (not even evenly) really helps everyone keep a more balanced perspective, and less of a "my team vs. their team" philosphy. Honestly, we're getting to the point where Republic vs. Empire is far less important than "Gunship pilots" vs. "Scout pilots" vs. "Strike pilots" vs. "Bomber pilots".

Edited by Nemarus
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Not contemptuous of gunship pilots, if they didn't have ships for people who cant fly, GSF would be even more dead than it is now since the whole game is made for people who cant fly.

 

This might be true for some gunship pilots, but not if I'm going to call them good. The good gunship pilots are a pain to follow and shoot down whether they're sniping or not. Yes, they're helped a bit by how unbalanced ion railgun and BLC are, but they'd be dangerous even if they were more balanced.

 

Heck, I'm not that great at flying and being dangerous when I'm not sniping in a gunship, but I still give most people a run for their money when they get up close. And I know I'm at least a decent strike and scout pilot.

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Agreed, but now I'm really starting to worry that this brand of contempt is something that's pervasive across the GSF community. I mean, I'll even sit and agree, some of our weapons are a little overdone, but does the sentiment against Gunships now extend to anyone who touches them?

 

Not only is this kinda personally hurtful, it's really tarnishing the image I have of GSF folks being a nicer breed of PvPer.

 

LOL, calm down. Even I fly a gunship when I have to. When the enemy team stacks bombers and gunships I reluctantly get in my gunship. (but I draw the line at bombers, I wont put one on my bar.) IMO You can be a good gunship pilot , but you cant be an Ace, because your ship does not do that. the same reason there are no Ace B-24 pilots.

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This might be true for some gunship pilots, but not if I'm going to call them good. The good gunship pilots are a pain to follow and shoot down whether they're sniping or not. Yes, they're helped a bit by how unbalanced ion railgun and BLC are, but they'd be dangerous even if they were more balanced.

 

Heck, I'm not that great at flying and being dangerous when I'm not sniping in a gunship, but I still give most people a run for their money when they get up close. And I know I'm at least a decent strike and scout pilot.

 

Sorry I don't buy it, If you can get away from and kill a pilot after you in a scout or strike its not your skill winning the day, its their lack of skill.

 

Ive never been killed by the gunship im going after, but ive killed many people who went after me in my gunship. Not because im good but because they aren't.

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See my thread here and tell me this doesn't qualify for the definition of an Ace. I don't agree with this foolish mentality that GS requires no skill to play. Hop on any gunship and pull off anything close to these numbers, and then we can talk. Till then though, this nonsense about GS's being OP or non-skilled is ridiculous and insulting.
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See my thread here and tell me this doesn't qualify for the definition of an Ace. I don't agree with this foolish mentality that GS requires no skill to play. Hop on any gunship and pull off anything close to these numbers, and then we can talk. Till then though, this nonsense about GS's being OP or non-skilled is ridiculous and insulting.

 

Nobody is saying that gunship aces are bad pilots. (or at least nobody reasonable is) People are just having issues with the fact that exceptional gunship aces are capable of pulling off feats that simply are not possible by the exceptional aces of any other class.

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See my thread here and tell me this doesn't qualify for the definition of an Ace. I don't agree with this foolish mentality that GS requires no skill to play. Hop on any gunship and pull off anything close to these numbers, and then we can talk. Till then though, this nonsense about GS's being OP or non-skilled is ridiculous and insulting.

 

LOL,So you completely destroyed a group of noobs? what does that prove? how does it make you an ace? that doesn't even qualify you as a good gunship pilot much less an ace.

 

Any decent pilot has had atleast a few matches like that, all that needs to happen is that you be the best player on the field. A crappy team vs a crappy team with one decent pilot is a recipe for huge numbers no matter what ship you fly.

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LOL,So you completely destroyed a group of noobs? what does that prove? how does it make you an ace? that doesn't even qualify you as a good gunship pilot much less an ace.

 

Any decent pilot has had atleast a few matches like that, all that needs to happen is that you be the best player on the field. A crappy team vs a crappy team with one decent pilot is a recipe for huge numbers no matter what ship you fly.

 

Dude chill, your being ridiculous. People like you are what are causing all the bad scout pilot stereotypes.

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LOL,So you completely destroyed a group of noobs? what does that prove? how does it make you an ace? that doesn't even qualify you as a good gunship pilot much less an ace.

 

Any decent pilot has had atleast a few matches like that, all that needs to happen is that you be the best player on the field. A crappy team vs a crappy team with one decent pilot is a recipe for huge numbers no matter what ship you fly.

 

Look at what happened. The entire team was a field of competent pilots who killed all the newbs on my team, not the other way around. You're argument is based on speculation. My numbers are actual results of what an Ace should be (even in the face of defeat, you're still performing optimally to help your team out in any scenario).

 

Edit: I have screenshots of at least 15 more games like this. To not even say that getting 27 kills is "decent" just makes me think you're perspective really is skewed beyond any sense of reasonableness

 

Thanks Zoom. I appreciate that not ALL scout pilots are that delusional

Edited by SammyGStatus
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Look at what happened. The entire team was a field of competent pilots who killed all the newbs on my team, not the other way around. You're argument is based on speculation. My numbers are actual results of what an Ace should be (even in the face of defeat, you're still performing optimally to help your team out in any scenario).

 

Edit: I have screenshots of at least 15 more games like this. To not even say that getting 27 kills is "decent" just makes me think you're perspective really is skewed beyond any sense of reasonableness

 

Thanks Zoom. I appreciate that not ALL scout pilots are that delusional

 

27 kills Is awesome if you were on a team that were killing stuff too. You weren't. Talk about delusional....

 

There used to be people on this board that understood how that worked. You get a lot more kills if you on a team that cant kill anything.

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27 kills Is awesome if you were on a team that were killing stuff too. You weren't. Talk about delusional....

 

There used to be people on this board that understood how that worked. You get a lot more kills if you on a team that cant kill anything.

 

Ya, and if your team is dead for 90% of the match, ya think the opponents just sit there instead of go after the only player doing anything? There used to be people on this board that understood causality. You're wrong, plain and simple. You'd probably say that even though I'm outperforming the "Aces" on this forum, that I'm still not doing what an ace does.

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27 kills Is awesome if you were on a team that were killing stuff too. You weren't. Talk about delusional....

 

There used to be people on this board that understood how that worked. You get a lot more kills if you on a team that cant kill anything.

 

Yes your correct on how it works, but you still have to know what your doing to get 27 kills, bad teammates just give you the opportunity to do so, gunships are not that overpowered

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Yes your correct on how it works, but you still have to know what your doing to get 27 kills, bad teammates just give you the opportunity to do so, gunships are not that overpowered

 

Ive never said they were over powered. And yeah you do need to know what youre doing to get 27 kills but it doesn't make you an ace, it makes you the best player in your poorly matched up game.

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Even the help of an ally Gunship can feel frustrating and unwanted. If I've chased Itkovian halfway across the map, exchanged several duels with him to the point where both our ships are smoking, and then suddenly he dies to some Gunship who wasn't even involved ... it's frustrating.

 

Yes... yes it is. :)

 

Mind you, getting killed is definitely more frustrating than getting "kill stolen", but your post definitely illustrates the main issue with gunships (and, to a lesser extent, bombers).

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Ive never said they were over powered. And yeah you do need to know what youre doing to get 27 kills but it doesn't make you an ace, it makes you the best player in your poorly matched up game.

 

You've backtracked from saying that my performance wasn't even decent to now I know what I'm doing. Glad you really know what you're talking about. I was the best in that match, and I'm often the best in MANY other matches (I'd say less than 2% of the time I'm not either the top or 2nd), regardless of teammates and opposition. Why? BECAUSE AN ACE KNOWS HOW TO USE HIS SHIP TO THE FULLEST! Since my roll is damage dealer, I'm doing that roll admirably, as I should considering this is how I view an "ace".

 

Just be happy you're not on my server Mall - you'd be even more butthurt than you apparently already are :cool:

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You've backtracked from saying that my performance wasn't even decent to now I know what I'm doing. Glad you really know what you're talking about. I was the best in that match, and I'm often the best in MANY other matches (I'd say less than 2% of the time I'm not either the top or 2nd), regardless of teammates and opposition. Why? BECAUSE AN ACE KNOWS HOW TO USE HIS SHIP TO THE FULLEST! Since my roll is damage dealer, I'm doing that roll admirably, as I should considering this is how I view an "ace".

 

Just be happy you're not on my server Mall - you'd be even more butthurt than you apparently already are :cool:

 

Im glad youre happy with your performance, and yes I too wish I was on your server. But im sure we have "Ace Gunship Pilots" on the harbinger that are almost as good as you are.

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Sorry I don't buy it, If you can get away from and kill a pilot after you in a scout or strike its not your skill winning the day, its their lack of skill.

 

Ive never been killed by the gunship im going after, but ive killed many people who went after me in my gunship. Not because im good but because they aren't.

 

You obviously haven't fought good gunship pilots then. That or selective memory.

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Yeah I cant wait for the day I finally see one, ill probably be riding a unicorn or flying a bomber at the time, theyre all about as likely.

 

Come to the Shadowlands and see when Xi'ao is playing for the Imps. He'll show you the error of your ways. There are a couple other decent ones there, but he's the one that always stands out to me.

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