Xinika - What Three Questions Will You Be Asking?

[AGSThomas]

 

We're good as we are in PvP and that should not be touched, or even scratched at all.

 

This. I don't want our PvP capabilities changed in anyway. Except for a change to lacerate. It would be nice to have some sort of AoE. Right now its not even worth putting on my hotkeys much less casting.

[Omophorus]

Yeah, because we are totally balanced and rival sages, vanguards, or smashers as dps-ers in PvP.. Sure

 

The only thing we are quite good at is being regstars, nodeguards and ninjas. We can't rival the burst of Combat Sentinels, operatives (and others), we can't rival any AoE class at all, and it is almost impossible to do 2k+ dps in prolonged fights in PvP. Which is, you know, piece of cake for a sage or a good vanguard or just the mainstream smasher.

 

At least we have a bit better survivability than concealment operatives.. still, even they have better damage than us. Yeah, this leads to a nerf, but this is just a nerf to their 1v1 capabilities (no knockback).. They also get some buffs in the form of shield probe and the usage of backstab in the face.

 

My point is, we are not in a borderline OP position in PvP. Not at all.

 

This whole post is hilarious.

 

Combat/Carnage burst is nice in theory but brutally easy to counter in practice. Assassin burst is superior to Operative burst, by a big way (in no small part because of Recklessness and 10m range on the hard-hitting Force-based attacks). Certainly Deception lacks in AoE, but it has incredible single target and control abilities instead.

 

2k+ DPS in a sustained fight usually means fluffing. Multi-target Flamethrowers that don't kill anyone. DOT/Death Field spam. Smashtarding. It is good for pressuring the other team but lower DPS and more focused damage is better, since it generates more kills faster.

 

Concealment has better sustained damage, certainly, but the trade off is being so paper thin that you can't actually use that damage. Plus, the spec is dying in 2.7. Right now the main reason it's even worth considering in ranked is that you can delayed-open on a focus target to make sure it dies before being able to react and pop defensive CDs. With that gone, it'll be a regstar hero (and not even good at that since everyone and their mom has a stun/knockback and can easily counter + crush the squishiest class in the universe).

[DarrelK]

We aren't supposed to be doing that kind of dps. You get amazing burst at the trade of high sustained damage.

Which is, might I remind you, far more potent to sudden switches and smart play than sustained could ever be.

 

And I've done 1800 dps in full length arenas before. Your argument is invalid and the problem is you, not the class.

 

I said more than 2k. Not 1800. 1800 is nothing. I've done 1800 in Voidstars, arenas etc. And I know a sin who has done even 2ks in arena.

And I said *almost* impossible. Problem I don't have. It is the class that has very limited dps potential. You can play as well as you want, you still can't break a certain barrier. This is especially evident in PvE. So yes, PvE deserves the buff, and as I pointed out, we are not borderline OP in PvP so it won't put us in the OP section. Xinika's suggestions definitely make sense.

 

@jack__ and Omophorus We have burst. We don't have the best burst. We are not even second.

The point is that other classes CAN unleash a better burst. How hard or easy it is to counter is not relevant. They can always make the target waste CC breaker and then unleash hell. They have potential to improve and do it.

 

We are a class "jack of all trades, master of none." Totally not gonna be OP with a bit more rate consistency and crit chance .

Edited March 19, 2014 by DarrelK

[Evolixe]

I said more than 2k. Not 1800. 1800 is nothing. I've done 1800 in Voidstars, arenas etc. And I know a sin who has done even 2ks in arena.

And I said *almost* impossible. Problem I don't have. It is the class that has very limited dps potential. You can play as well as you want, you still can't break a certain barrier. This is especially evident in PvE. So yes, PvE deserves the buff, and as I pointed out, we are not borderline OP in PvP so it won't put us in the OP section. Xinika's suggestions definitely make sense.

 

@jack__ and Omophorus We have burst. We don't have the best burst. We are not even second.

The point is that other classes CAN unleash a better burst. How hard or easy it is to counter is not relevant. They can always make the target waste CC breaker and then unleash hell. They have potential to improve and do it.

 

We are a class "jack of all trades, master of none." Totally not gonna be OP with a bit more rate consistency and crit chance .

 

The lack of sustained is the price we pay for having the burst that we have. If you would learn to utilize that properly, you would know that the position we are in right now.. might even be too strong as it is.

 

You don't know what you're talking about, because you aren't experienced enough with the class.

[Xinika]

The exaggeration that Assassins are 'borderline OP' in PvP is simply over the top. The spec performs solid in PvP and that's where it ends. A simple touch on sustainability will not break the spec. What would break the spec is additional burst.

 

As Rynis pointed out, there is far too much over thinking going on.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Xinika

[Sarafain]

Assassins/Shadows have control, reset combat, powerful defensives and high on call burst. Sealth gives the choice of who/when to open. The class does what it's supposed to in PvP, that doesn't make it OP.

 

So what about sustained for PvE?

 

I've posted on this talent a couple times as I believe it's weak in comparison. Assassins Mark/Shadows Mark - 2% per point, 6% in total increase to the dmg Maul/SS. Now look at slingers/sniper bottom tree of Sharpshooter/Marksman Steady shots 3% per point, 6% increase to 3 abilities. All 3 specs, and the hybrid use this talent.

 

Increasing the Shadows/Assassins Mark to include all melee hits is an easy fix that doesn't change the burst of PvP too much. CS/VS would hit a bit harder but it doesn't change the dmg of Shock/Project, Discharge/FB or Maul/SS. Assassinate/spinning strikes would hit harder which is a bit of an advantage in PvP, my thought is you only really get in 1 in PvP per kill b/c of the cooldown.

[Altheran]

More damage on Infiltration/Deception big hitters (namely Project/Shock and Force Breach/Discharge), for less crit amplitude (to keep the crit outcome unchanged).

 

With 10% more damage uncrit, but 20% less bonus damage on talents (down from 50% to 30%) :

- Crit damage will be ~200% of 110% => 220% instead of ~220% of 100% => 220 %.

-> Maximal burst unchanged.

-> Relative DPS improvement on those abilities (considering 25% crit chances) : 8%

-> Relative overall DPS improvement (considering Evolixe's Dummy Parse putting these abilities around 40% of total DPS) : 3.2% (3500 => 3615)

 

Insufficient alone but with various little changes like this one, it can lead to a good outcome.

[DarrelK]

The lack of sustained is the price we pay for having the burst that we have. If you would learn to utilize that properly, you would know that the position we are in right now.. might even be too strong as it is.

 

You don't know what you're talking about, because you aren't experienced enough with the class.

 

Lol. I'm not experienced enough with the class when I have both more ranked matches played across my shadows and sins, AND higher rating than you. Stop resorting to personal attacks, you lack the background for it. I don't mind someone disagreeing with me, but I'm personal attacks? Meh that's a sign of weakness.

 

 

P.S. I apologize for stooping so low that I also did a personal attack with this post. Couldn't resist.

Edited March 19, 2014 by DarrelK

[Sarafain]

More damage on Infiltration/Deception big hitters (namely Project/Shock and Force Breach/Discharge), for less crit amplitude (to keep the crit outcome unchanged).

 

With 10% more damage uncrit, but 20% less bonus damage on talents (down from 50% to 30%) :

- Crit damage will be ~200% of 110% => 220% instead of ~220% of 100% => 220 %.

-> Maximal burst unchanged.

-> Relative DPS improvement on those abilities (considering 25% crit chances) : 8%

-> Relative overall DPS improvement (considering Evolixe's Dummy Parse putting these abilities around 40% of total DPS) : 3.2% (3500 => 3615)

 

Insufficient alone but with various little changes like this one, it can lead to a good outcome.

 

This change will leave the highest potential burst, it also will bring up the lower damage end by a significant amount, so unless you hit that maximum you're still doing more burst. Basically your crit hit damage stay the same but your non crits go up. This will affect PvP too much.

 

The way to avoid increasing burst in PvP is with better PvE set piece or the abilities that PvP try to avoid using.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Sarafain

[DarrelK]

PvE set bonus can't work. This shouldn't be the fix. A set bonus shouldn't compensate for the 10% lower dmg (pulling the number off my ***, could be less/more) that shadows/sins have compared to other dps classes.

[Altheran]

This change will leave the highest potential burst, it also will bring up the lower damage end by a significant amount, so unless you hit that maximum you're still doing more burst. Basically your crit hit damage stay the same but your non crits go up. This will affect PvP too much.

 

The way to avoid increasing burst in PvP is with better PvE set piece or the abilities that PvP try to avoid using.

 

At the moment, these ability are "burst" only if they crit. When they dont, they're just "another random ability".

 

Look at your tooltips. An uncrit fully stacked Force Breach/Discharge does around the same damage of a non-crit Clairvoyant Strike/Voltaic Slash (add the two hits). Project/Schock is even lower.

 

So even with this 10% when it doesn't crit, they still won't even worth to be called "burst". What will change is a marginally better "pressure".

 

If these "big hitters" (I'm using quotations because they're not real ones as they need to crit to be ones) were actually like Vigilance Guardian's Overhead Slash or Plasma Brand, being significantly better abilities than others, yes, I'd agree that it would mean "better burst". But as they stand for now, it's no burst.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Altheran

[Sarafain]

I agree that changing the 2 piece set is a cheap fix.

 

-Increasing proc rates will leave us with less RNG and more dmg and keeps the potential burst dps the same, but again you high dmg burst more frequently.

-Low slash would require a rehaul on priority and create a greater gap in force management.

-Increasing Dmg to Shock/Project, Discharge/FB and Maul/SS will have a huge impact on PvP.

 

It leaves CS/VS and saber strike to be altered, or something completely new that won't break PvP.

[Sarafain]

At the moment, these ability are "burst" only if they crit. When they dont, they're just "another random ability".

 

Look at your tooltips. An uncrit fully stacked Force Breach/Discharge does around the same damage of a non-crit Clairvoyant Strike/Voltaic Slash (add the two hits). Project/Schock is even lower.

 

So even with this 10% when it doesn't crit, they still won't even worth to be called "burst". What will change is a marginally better "pressure".

 

If these "big hitters" (I'm using quotations because they're not real ones as they need to crit to ones) where actually like Vigilance Guardian's Overhead Slash or Plasma Brand, being significantly better abilities than others, yes, I'd agree that it would mean "better burst". But as they stand for now, it's no burst.

 

I didn't mean to give the impression non crit abilities are bursty. What you're doing leaves the potential the same, in PvE it would work. When you look at PvP during your "pop CD's" burst rotation you're still doing more dmg as the change decreases the lowest potential opener. Take Evo's opener Discharge/FB, Shock/Project, VS/CS, VS/CS, Maul/SS, Shock/Project, Discharge/FB; taking the first 2 abilities off b/c of recklessness/?shrug? that's 3 abilities that would be affected, if non of them crit you're still doing an additional 1k to 1.5k dmg then you were able to do before. Over the course of a minute it's not a big deal, 7 cd's is less then 11 seconds, another 1k is substantial

[Altheran]

I didn't mean to give the impression non crit abilities are bursty. What you're doing leaves the potential the same, in PvE it would work. When you look at PvP during your "pop CD's" burst rotation you're still doing more dmg as the change decreases the lowest potential opener. Take Evo's opener Discharge/FB, Shock/Project, VS/CS, VS/CS, Maul/SS, Shock/Project, Discharge/FB; taking the first 2 abilities off b/c of recklessness/?shrug? that's 3 abilities that would be affected, if non of them crit you're still doing an additional 1k to 1.5k dmg then you were able to do before. Over the course of a minute it's not a big deal, 7 cd's is less then 11 seconds, another 1k is substantial

It will not even be an additional 1K. In this case if one didn't crit, aside the fact that this point the concerned abilities are outside of the burst and in the rotational course (a burst is 3-4 GCD at most), giving ten percents to an ability that does around 3K (because it hadn't crit) means adding 300. For two its 600.

 

Note that I didn't include Shadow Strike/Maul in the proposal, so in that example, at most two abilities can benefit from it.

 

Basically, there's 6.25% of chances to add nothing, 37.50% to add ~300, and 52.25% to add ~600, assuming a crit rate around 25%. It's an average improvement of 400-450.

Must be noted that having the best improvement means having the lower end.

 

It doesn't seem terrible. I don't see why they're forbidden such a low improvement.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Altheran

[Evolixe]

The exaggeration that Assassins are 'borderline OP' in PvP is simply over the top. The spec performs solid in PvP and that's where it ends. A simple touch on sustainability will not break the spec. What would break the spec is additional burst.

 

As Rynis pointed out, there is far too much over thinking going on.

 

A damage buff that would affect the current burst is the same.

 

PvE set bonus can't work. This shouldn't be the fix. A set bonus shouldn't compensate for the 10% lower dmg (pulling the number off my ***, could be less/more) that shadows/sins have compared to other dps classes.

 

It's lame I'll give you that. But it's also the best fix there could be.

No hassle, no touching PvP, nothing that can actually go wrong.

 

I wouldn't like to see it as a permanent solution, but as a temporary one it would most definitely have my absolute preferance over anything else.

 

Lol. I'm not experienced enough with the class when I have both more ranked matches played across my shadows and sins, AND higher rating than you. Stop resorting to personal attacks, you lack the background for it. I don't mind someone disagreeing with me, but I'm personal attacks? Meh that's a sign of weakness.

 

 

P.S. I apologize for stooping so low that I also did a personal attack with this post. Couldn't resist.

 

I wasn't even personally attacking you, I was just giving you a hint in the most polite yet direct way I could find.

The very fact that you take it as an attack speaks worlds about you.

 

But It's funny you mention arenas, rating and matches played.

I'm talking about actual skill, you can't put that into a number sir.

 

And yeah, I'm quite a tad better @ shadow than you are. Lol.

 

 

ps. My rating was gained in a timespan of about 6 hours. Not even trying, or interested in arena, for that matter.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Evolixe

[DarrelK]

Of course that's what you would say.

 

Set bonus can't be a fix. End of story. And a pve set bonus that gives such a massive damage increase will surely somehow get into PvP, exploiting the retarded bolster system and making a complete mess. No, that's not even a simple solution. Hard to see how you missed THAT, when you make elephants out of neglible changes..

Edited March 20, 2014 by DarrelK

[Evolixe]

Of course that's what you would say.

 

Set bonus can't be a fix. End of story. And a pve set bonus that gives such a massive damage increase will surely somehow get into PvP, exploiting the retarded bolster system and making a complete mess. No, that's not even a simple solution. Hard to see how you missed THAT, when you make elephants out of neglible changes..

 

(4) Set: Increases the Critical Strike chance of your Clairvoyant Strike and Voltaic Slash by 15%.

As well as increasing all damage to creatures by 10%.

 

Done. Fixed. Never going to impact PvP by even the slighest amount.

 

Kinda thought that would be obvious tbh, of course a flat out 10% everything buff would make it into PvP.. which is why you don't include PvP in it in the first place.

 

 

Bioware doesn't dare touching Infiltration because of it's state in PvP being in balance as well as it is.

This would circumvent any possible way to screw anything up.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Evolixe

[ConCube]

(4) Set: Increases the Critical Strike chance of your Clairvoyant Strike and Voltaic Slash by 15%.

As well as increasing all damage to creatures by 10%.

 

Done. Fixed. Never going to impact PvP by even the slighest amount.

 

Kinda thought that would be obvious tbh, of course a flat out 10% everything buff would make it into PvP.. which is why you don't include PvP in it in the first place.

 

 

Bioware doesn't dare touching Infiltration because of it's state in PvP being in balance as well as it is.

This would circumvent any possible way to screw anything up.

 

I dont really feel good about this fix, kinda lazy imo. Though i dont have any better suggestions.

[DarrelK]

(4) Set: Increases the Critical Strike chance of your Clairvoyant Strike and Voltaic Slash by 15%.

As well as increasing all damage to creatures by 10%.

 

Done. Fixed. Never going to impact PvP by even the slighest amount.

 

Kinda thought that would be obvious tbh, of course a flat out 10% everything buff would make it into PvP.. which is why you don't include PvP in it in the first place.

 

 

Bioware doesn't dare touching Infiltration because of it's state in PvP being in balance as well as it is.

This would circumvent any possible way to screw anything up.

 

#Most-OP-set-bonus-2014

 

Ok, there we go, the other classes also take the armorings. Boom 5k parses. Losing a bit of mainstat but gaining flat damage bonus (ofc depends on percentage.. if it is like 1% probably won't be worth it.. but 10% or anything close to that.. hell yeah!) and a bit of unusable willpower.. so cool, woot!

 

A PvE set bonus is not the solution, seriously, get it already.

Edited March 20, 2014 by DarrelK

[Torcatoth]

#Most-OP-set-bonus-2014

 

Ok, there we go, the other classes also take the armorings. Boom 5k parses. Losing a bit of mainstat but gaining flat damage bonus (ofc depends on percentage.. if it is like 1% probably won't be worth it.. but 10% or anything close to that.. hell yeah!) and a bit of unusable willpower.. so cool, woot!

 

A PvE set bonus is not the solution, seriously, get it already.

 

Bro if the other classes picked that up the only thing they would be gainning is a loss of main stat, the moves evolixe talked about are exclusive to assassin/shadows, and the damage to creatures i would supose that's done by the same moves

Edited March 20, 2014 by Torcatoth

[THoK-Zeus]

I think most of the people will aggree, that assassin dps needs some more buffs.

 

A few thoughts:

It's very difficult to compare top dummy parses, but i will try:

You have to be sure, that you just compare specs with a very similar number of hits and crits for example.

If you compare a spec with 100 hits with a spec with 1000 hits over 5 minutes, then the probability to get a lot higher crit rates then usual is a lot higher.

 

Therefore i will compare madness assassins with (hybrid) lethality snipers. Both are dot specs and have an aoe in their Standard Rotation and also have a very similar amount of hits and crits over a dummy parse duration.

 

If you don't count the rolling through the dummy then there's almost no difference (~1%) between the actual parses of lethality and madness. If you compare madness to hybrid snipers, then you see roughly a 3,4% difference in damage.

 

Deception on the other hand is a single target burst spec. Therefore i will compare it to carnage (although carnage has more hits over a dummy duration).

The difference in damage output on a dummy, between the 2 specs is (surprsingly) 3,4% aswell.

 

I think a actual dps buff for assassins should be somewhere in that region for pve (3-3,5%).

 

(4) Set: Increases the Critical Strike chance of your Clairvoyant Strike and Voltaic Slash by 15%.

As well as increasing all damage to creatures by 10%.

 

Done. Fixed. Never going to impact PvP by even the slighest amount.

 

Kinda thought that would be obvious tbh, of course a flat out 10% everything buff would make it into PvP.. which is why you don't include PvP in it in the first place.

 

 

Bioware doesn't dare touching Infiltration because of it's state in PvP being in balance as well as it is.

This would circumvent any possible way to screw anything up.

 

A 10% flat buff would giving Deception more sustained dps then carnage, while having superior burst and an even more superior sub 30% phase aswell.

With a 10% flat buff madness would go over the top, making it the highest parsing spec in the game (let aside concealment operatives, but that spec has a lot of problems in actual pve encounters anyway). Not quite the position you want an aoe spec to have.

 

Even worse: That suggestion would buff sorceror dps by ~10% aswell (and would buff them to OPness aswell) and would force them to take that set-bonus aswell.

 

Most likely Juggernauts and Marauders would also take that set-bonus aswell, depending on their spec and the amount of Force Damage their attacks actually do.

 

As long as their amount of non-weapon damage is over 20% (true for most of the warrior specs afaik) a flat 10% damage increase from a willpower set-bonus will be favorable over their current set Bonus.

 

You can't create set-bonuses that are 5 times stronger then normally. That will just break the game and will force half of the dps classes in the game to take that set bonus.

Edited March 20, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[keimox]

I'd be happy if they do something about removing some RNG factors from deception and maybe removing RNG from chain-shock so if shock crits then chain-shock crits and if not then both would be non-crit.

Also would be nice if chain-shock didn't spend recklessness stack.

 

Imo there was also some good suggestions @ shadow questions thread.

[Xinika]

Hey, we do have 2 other specs, need I remind you. Nothing else to say on those?

[Altheran]

I think most of the people will aggree, that assassin dps needs some more buffs.

 

A few thoughts:

It's very difficult to compare top dummy parses, but i will try:

You have to be sure, that you just compare specs with a very similar number of hits and crits for example.

If you compare a spec with 100 hits with a spec with 1000 hits over 5 minutes, then the probability to get a lot higher crit rates then usual is a lot higher.

 

Therefore i will compare madness assassins with (hybrid) lethality snipers. Both are dot specs and have an aoe in their Standard Rotation and also have a very similar amount of hits and crits over a dummy parse duration.

 

If you don't count the rolling through the dummy then there's almost no difference (~1%) between the actual parses of lethality and madness. If you compare madness to hybrid snipers, then you see roughly a 3,4% difference in damage.

 

Deception on the other hand is a single target burst spec. Therefore i will compare it to carnage (although carnage has more hits over a dummy duration).

The difference in damage output on a dummy, between the 2 specs is (surprsingly) 3,4% aswell.

 

I think a actual dps buff for assassins should be somewhere in that region for pve (3-3,5%).

I assume you like what I proposed :

More damage on Infiltration/Deception big hitters (namely Project/Shock and Force Breach/Discharge), for less crit amplitude (to keep the crit outcome unchanged).

 

With 10% more damage uncrit, but 20% less bonus damage on talents (down from 50% to 30%) :

- Crit damage will be ~200% of 110% => 220% instead of ~220% of 100% => 220 %.

-> Maximal burst unchanged.

-> Relative DPS improvement on those abilities (considering 25% crit chances) : 8%

-> Relative overall DPS improvement (considering Evolixe's Dummy Parse putting these abilities around 40% of total DPS) : 3.2% (3500 => 3615)

 

Insufficient alone but with various little changes like this one, it can lead to a good outcome.

Edit - Noticed that my math is wrong, the abilities would improve by 6% on average, for 2.4% of overall improvement

 

---

 

Xinika : as for other specs, there's not much to talk about, if not Balance/Madness boring-ness, or ask if they intend to keep the DoT requirement for Mind Crush/Crushing Darkness proc, that Sages/Sorcerers do not have. For Tank... I haven't even a question. If I'd were free to ask anything I want, I'd ask a question about the animation lame-ness rather than a Tank question.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Altheran

[THoK-Zeus]

I assume you like what I proposed :

 

 

Xinika : as for other specs, there's not much to talk about, if not Balance/Madness boring-ness, or ask if they intend to keep the DoT requirement for Mind Crush/Crushing Darkness proc, that Sages/Sorcerers do not have. For Tank... I haven't even a question. If I'd were free to ask anything I want, I'd ask a question about the animation lame-ness rather than a Tank question.

 

I like the direction of the idea, but a straight buff for the heavy hitters would not be very good for pvp.

 

My addition to your suggestion:

A 8% damage buff instead of a 10% for Shock and Discharge.

A 4,82% (calculated with knightriders top deception parse) straight damage buff for Voltaic Slash and Surging Charge.

Still the 20% (with correct math this should 21,3% reduction but whatever) reduction of crit damage from Shock and Discharge.

 

With doing that we have the same 3,2% overall damage increase from your changes.

 

With my suggestion this comes at the expensive of losing 5,33% of your absolute maximum burst (tough you would still gain dps if shock and discharge don't crit).

 

Of course, there are a lot of ways to balance these numbers.

 

I think when you buff deception sustained damage, you also have to nerf it's burst a bit on the other hand. A straight damage increase might not be that usable for pvp, but it is still a buff that is not really needed.

 

For tanks i don't have any questions at all and i can't think of anything i would want or ask for (and assassin tank is my absolute main).

 

Edit: Math corrected.

Edited March 20, 2014 by THoK-Zeus