Thank you for no damage meter's

[Valadain]

I've never understood this argument that the guy/girl on the top of the damage meter is a baddy standing in bad stuff because he can't possibly be at the top of the damage meter and be self aware.

 

Have you seen a single solitary video of a raid in any game where the guy/girl doing the most damage ends up dying all the time?

 

You sort of have to survive the encounter to maintain that "top" spot. Its a complete mystery to me how all these baddies top damage meters yet stand in bad stuff in every posted example of the evil of damage meters and how unnecessary they are.

 

A good raider will be performing at their classes peak while addressing all the challenges inherent in an encounter.

 

In a good raid, they don't die, they soak up heals that often need to be used elsewhere. I've very often seen overall raid DPS decrease as we bring in someone who's individual DPS is the highest.

[Seismax]

In a good raid, they don't die, they soak up heals that often need to be used elsewhere. I've very often seen overall raid DPS decrease as we bring in someone who's individual DPS is the highest.

 

Good point, it's a shame you can't see who's healing him and tell them to stop... oh wait, Yes you can.

[Nikonidas]

In a good raid, they don't die, they soak up heals that often need to be used elsewhere. I've very often seen overall raid DPS decrease as we bring in someone who's individual DPS is the highest.

 

And this is not the meters fault. That is called a bad player...

[SlyJeff]

Honestly, I don't think that's at all accurate - they can make the fights challenging(heck they'd probably be even more challenging) without the meters.

 

I just no longer have the time in my life to spend hours upon hours trying to figure out what went wrong.

 

The tools exist to play the game and *quickly* analyze the data and not need to play guesswork at it, and possibly hurt feelings as I make calls based on my opinions and not necessarily facts.

 

If you do not have the tools to assess how much damage people (especially yourself) are doing, this limits the ability of Bioware to challenge raids and be sure they can output a high level of dps. I remember the days where guild were trying to get down Brutallis. I wasn't in any if those guilds, but the efforts they had to go through to make sure every individual was pumping out the necessary and that the raid was composed in such a way to leverage this dps enough to beat the enrage timer was pretty incredible. Perhaps he was tuned too tightly (I cannot say because I didn't ever get to him), but there's no way Blizzard could have tuned that fight so tightly (but certainly doable) if players didn't have the ability measure their performance objectively

 

If you cannot measure performance, you have to guess at how well the raid is performing and how to improve. This is true for the raid leader as well as individuals. And if people are guessing, the game simply cannot be tuned as difficult because people just don't have enough information available to know how to improve when they fail. I know plenty of aggressive players who talk a good game and simply aren't any good. You wouldnt know the were pulling the team down without a way to measure performance, and they wouldn't know themselves. Right now, I might be terrible but I wouldn't know it because I can't measure my performance. I have no idea if I'm carrying or being carried, despite trying my best.

 

If a raid is going to have a mix of players who are good and who are bad with no way to tell the difference between them, the raids will have to be tuned lower or no one will ever beat them.

 

I'd rather play content that challenges me and know where I need to improve to meet that challenge rather content that anyone can beat because it's tuned to allow for the kind of poor play that exists when there are no tools to improve.

[Nikolu]

In a good raid, they don't die, they soak up heals that often need to be used elsewhere. I've very often seen overall raid DPS decrease as we bring in someone who's individual DPS is the highest.

 

So explain to me how overall DPS decreases when you add a person who does more damage than another.

 

Are you claiming your healers can't prioritize healing targets, they allow other people to die healing this all-star? This makes no sense. A guy standing in bad stuff, dies. Healers don't heal stupid. Raid leaders should be easily aware of who is taking damage from what... oh wait that would require a damage meter... or combat log...

 

I mean how would you even know Mr All-star top of the meter was taking more damage than other people "soaking up heals that often need to be elsewhere" without the ability to look back over an attempt to see that sort of thing.

 

Such a strange circular argument.

[Valadain]

Who cares? Casuals shouldn't expect the best-in-game stuff anyway. That's not how games work.

 

Actually, that's really not how games work. That's how MMORPGs have been designed. I don't remember ever having to farm for a better monopoly piece or give up all of my spare time to progress in Mass Effect.

 

Personally, I'd rather the game developers have more time to build in depth of game play than constantly building and balancing multiple levels of content so that people can look at statistics and generally fail to understand what they mean in the first place.

 

In the many, many raid guilds I've been in, I have yet to see one where meters made a positive impact. I have, on the other hand, seen plenty of MMOs lose their player base because they spent all their time balancing and re-balancing and never improving the actual game.

[Aaluria]

I have personally never been in a raid where the raid leader used meters to find blame for the wipe. They have used it to decide who to bring to a raid. Maybe this is because I have never really done much PUGing.

 

The thing that noone seems to point out in these threads are that there are many different types of players. I will try to give them all names...

1. "Elitists" as everyone calls them care about being in a group where all 10 are the best at what they do. They want to finish content no matter what the cost is.

2. "Raiders" are people that want to do relatively well in raids but don't want to put in the time to master every aspect of the game.

3. "Casual Raiders" would be the type that raid every once in a while but it really does not matter to them if they finish the raid as they are just in there to have fun.

4. I can't come up with a name for what I want to say but there are people that go into raids because they enjoy the story. These guys sure are not going to care about numbers at all.

 

I am sure there are more catagories you can put people in. The point is, if you do not like the attitude of an "elitist" then don't play with them. In my opinion though, everyone should have the tools that they need for the level of play that they want to achieve. Telling someone who really cares about having the best DPSers in their raid that they shouldn't feel that way is just as crazy as telling someone who doesn't care about their DPS that they need to care.

 

I actually agree with you on this, and to be perfectly honest I am fine with those tools in the hands of responsible people. But <and you knew there would be one> there are people who are not responsible and they can and do ruin experiences for others, or reputations or just out and out are rude and unyeilding. "MORE DOTS !@#@$@$@"

 

I am fine with personal meters, and if people want to share their dps or whatever with their raid leader thats fine. I am against the information being available to everyone. Meaning we should have the choice to share those numbers, like we share other important types of information, it's not shared with everyone unless YOU choose to do so. A few posts back someone else said it best. I am not saying it very well. I hope its clearer now. I just absolutely hate the thought that this game may turn into WoW. I just don't want to see that taint here.

[Caelrie]

Actually, that's really not how games work. That's how MMORPGs have been designed. I don't remember ever having to farm for a better monopoly piece or give up all of my spare time to progress in Mass Effect.

 

Personally, I'd rather the game developers have more time to build in depth of game play than constantly building and balancing multiple levels of content so that people can look at statistics and generally fail to understand what they mean in the first place.

.

 

Actually, Mass Effect has difficulty modes resulting in better stuff and higher levels too. That sorta wrecks your point.

[Skeelol]

Actually, Mass Effect has difficulty modes resulting in better stuff and higher levels too. That sorta wrecks your point.

 

Yep and not the only example.

[Aaluria]

Who cares? Casuals shouldn't expect the best-in-game stuff anyway. That's not how games work.

 

I knew you would say this, and how many of those casuals out number you elistists? You just opened the flood gate with your insulting inuendo.

[Caelrie]

I knew you would say this, and how many of those casuals out number you elistists? You just opened the flood gate with your insulting inuendo.

 

Numbers don't matter. Casuals don't quit because they can't do everything in the game at the hardest level. Hard-cores DO quit if the game is too easy. There was nothing insulting about what I said.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Caelrie

[Valadain]

So explain to me how overall DPS decreases when you add a person who does more damage than another.

 

Are you claiming your healers can't prioritize healing targets, they allow other people to die healing this all-star? This makes no sense. A guy standing in bad stuff, dies. Healers don't heal stupid. Raid leaders should be easily aware of who is taking damage from what... oh wait that would require a damage meter... or combat log...

 

I mean how would you even know Mr All-star top of the meter was taking more damage than other people "soaking up heals that often need to be elsewhere" without the ability to look back over an attempt to see that sort of thing.

 

Such a strange circular argument.

 

Raid leaders should, but the meters tend to blind more people than they help. The point I'm making isn't that meters are useless, but that they aren't necessary as people seem to think. They are a tool that bring with them a lot of impacts to a game. My argument isn't that meters have no value, but that their value doesn't match the negative impacts they bring to a game.

 

Consider how many MMOs have been lost to re-balancing. Either a re-design of the entire combat system, or gradual changes to the game that end up annoying more people than they help. All the while, really nice things that a development group would like to implement are put on the side while talent trees are re-done because of too much DPS here or not enough healing there. Things that really don't matter much and wouldn't even be visible without meters.

[SlyJeff]

Actually, that's really not how games work. That's how MMORPGs have been designed. I don't remember ever having to farm for a better monopoly piece or give up all of my spare time to progress in Mass Effect.

 

Personally, I'd rather the game developers have more time to build in depth of game play than constantly building and balancing multiple levels of content so that people can look at statistics and generally fail to understand what they mean in the first place.

 

In the many, many raid guilds I've been in, I have yet to see one where meters made a positive impact. I have, on the other hand, seen plenty of MMOs lose their player base because they spent all their time balancing and re-balancing and never improving the actual game.

 

Well then you weren't in my guild. My guild had high retention, good players, and we encouraged everyone to view the logs after raids. Most of us were pretty new to raiding, but looking at the logs and meters helped us move from wiping on the easiest raids to clearing some challenging content.

 

I think there are a lot of guilds out there that use logs in a positive way. And honestly, leading a raid is hard enough with all of that good information- why do non raid leaders want to make it more difficult?

 

If you want to lead raids without meters, form a guild and do that. I don't plan to lead any raiding in this game, but I sure want my raid leader to have all the tools he needs, even if they show I'm not performing- because then I'll do what it takes to improve.

[Caelrie]

 

Consider how many MMOs have been lost to re-balancing. Either a re-design of the entire combat system, or gradual changes to the game that end up annoying more people than they help. All the while, really nice things that a development group would like to implement are put on the side while talent trees are re-done because of too much DPS here or not enough healing there. Things that really don't matter much and wouldn't even be visible without meters.

 

I find your argument that MMOs would be better off if the developers never even tried to balance the classes specious at best.

[Israful]

Actually the "Fog of war" extends to the entire battlefield environment, not just intell on your enemy.

[Nategray]

You can try to explain things like these all you want, but most of them won't understand or won't want to understand.

 

They'll say "but back in EQ days there were no mods and we did fine" and other silly stuff like that, like the actual tactics, dps requirements and everything else back then could compare to what is end-game today.

 

A joke really.

 

 

No joke EQ raids were ten times harder than anything WOW ever produced, if you played in a time flagged guild you would know this, in fact had you just done the events to get time flagged you would know.

And yes we did them without dps meters.

So the jokes on you, WOW made raids so easy a monkey could do them and your defense is in WOW dps meters told you who was good, no they didn't.

They are not necessary in any way shape or form, only for baddies who want to thump their chest and proclaim how they are good.

You would never make it through the ring of earth event so spare me the WOW raids were hard defense it holds no water thanks.

[Aramyth]

I'll be honest and say haven't read all 15 pages of this thread. I stopped at around 10, but I wanted to put my 2 cents in on the topic.

 

The number one meters are bad is because statistically someone will always be on the bottom, does that make them a BAD player? No, it does not. They could just be having an off day, be distracted by something in real life and who knows what else. However, elitist jerks will frown upon the person who ends up at the bottom because they're simply on the bottom.

 

For example, say you could measure the DPS of every DPS player on the same boss and take the top 5 with the highest average and put them against each other. One of them will come out on the bottom. They won't be a bad player, but statistically, they'll suck.

 

If someone is a bad player, or a mediocre player, who the hell are we to pass judgement on them? They are enjoying their playtime and that's the purpose of an MMO. If you don't like grouping with them, you leave the group.

 

My MMO experience only extends out to LoTRO and FFXI, but my favourite experiences from both games are when I duo something with someone else that would normally take a group of six or more to kill/complete. That's where real 'skill' (I use the term skill lightly in any game reference) comes in, not min/maxing to be the best out of an 18 person raid or 4 person party.

[Caelrie]

No joke EQ raids were ten times harder than anything WOW ever produced, if you played in a time flagged guild you would know this, in fact had you just done the events to get time flagged you would know.

And yes we did them without dps meters.

So the jokes on you, WOW made raids so easy a monkey could do them and your defense is in WOW dps meters told you who was good, no they didn't.

They are not necessary in any way shape or form, only for baddies who want to thump their chest and proclaim how they are good.

You would never make it through the ring of earth event so spare me the WOW raids were hard defense it holds no water thanks.

 

Your argument is directly contradicted by the fact that fewer than 5% of players ever beat the current raid tier in heroic on WoW before the next tier goes in.

[Nikolu]

Actually, that's really not how games work. That's how MMORPGs have been designed. I don't remember ever having to farm for a better monopoly piece or give up all of my spare time to progress in Mass Effect.

 

Personally, I'd rather the game developers have more time to build in depth of game play than constantly building and balancing multiple levels of content so that people can look at statistics and generally fail to understand what they mean in the first place.

 

In the many, many raid guilds I've been in, I have yet to see one where meters made a positive impact. I have, on the other hand, seen plenty of MMOs lose their player base because they spent all their time balancing and re-balancing and never improving the actual game.

 

So you don't remember having to pass go and collect $200 a couple times to get all 4 railroads?

 

So you didn't give up any spare time to progress in Mass Effect. You played at work?

 

At this point you are weaving off topic pretty badly here, try to come back to the discussion, I believe you were working on the "the game doesn't need damage meters" position.

 

Again, not using a tool correctly really shouldn't mean its a bad thing. It means that the tool needs to be used properly.

 

As for your last point, at what time exactly was "balancing and rebalancing" defined as "not improving"

 

If the dev's are spending time adjusting classes so none of them are marginalized, how is that not improving the game? I think that defines improvement.

 

If every Sith Juggernaut quits because his class isn't ever needed due to balancing, but the dev's give us a new race and a new planet that's ok? Because you don't play a Juggernaut so that doesn't bother you?

 

Combat log in a hotkey MMO is honestly essential, there are too many things going on for anyone to keep track of, you simply can't see it all on the fly.

[Valadain]

Actually, Mass Effect has difficulty modes resulting in better stuff and higher levels too. That sorta wrecks your point.

 

It wrecks the point that you are mistakenly applying to my post. My point has nothing to do with difficulty modes. I am talking about the divide between players that is created by rewarding people only for time spent. I played Mass Effect at the higher difficulty, it didn't take any more of my time than at the lower difficulty. There are also not other players from which I would be diverging at either difficulty.

 

Skill is not equal to time spent. That is the problem that most MMOs fall into, reducing challenge down to time. If it takes a while to get something, it must be more difficult. Meters feed this further, creating a necessity to get all the advantages time will buy.

[Seismax]

Raid leaders should, but the meters tend to blind more people than they help. The point I'm making isn't that meters are useless, but that they aren't necessary as people seem to think. They are a tool that bring with them a lot of impacts to a game. My argument isn't that meters have no value, but that their value doesn't match the negative impacts they bring to a game.

 

Consider how many MMOs have been lost to re-balancing. Either a re-design of the entire combat system, or gradual changes to the game that end up annoying more people than they help. All the while, really nice things that a development group would like to implement are put on the side while talent trees are re-done because of too much DPS here or not enough healing there. Things that really don't matter much and wouldn't even be visible without meters.

 

If you're going to go that way, why not the opposite?

 

Consider how many MMOs have been lost to re-balance. Either a lack of re-design of the entire combat system, or no changes to the game that end up annoying more people than they help. All the while, really nice things that a development group would like to implement never see the light of day because people have already lost interest for the next game on the horizon. Things that really don't matter much and don't address the problems people complain about.

[Skeelol]

No joke EQ raids were ten times harder than anything WOW ever produced, if you played in a time flagged guild you would know this, in fact had you just done the events to get time flagged you would know.

And yes we did them without dps meters.

So the jokes on you, WOW made raids so easy a monkey could do them and your defense is in WOW dps meters told you who was good, no they didn't.

They are not necessary in any way shape or form, only for baddies who want to thump their chest and proclaim how they are good.

You would never make it through the ring of earth event so spare me the WOW raids were hard defense it holds no water thanks.

 

=) Funny you should mention that. Talked to plenty of guildies in WoW about EQ and they said the raids were a joke compared to hardmode content that we were doing.

 

So in other words, people who experienced both of the top-end raids in both the games.

 

So i think not.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Skeelol

[Afortunado]

*points to signature*

 

If you suck, that's okay. But I don't want to raid with you if you suck.... and you may still want to raid with me even though you suck. I don't carry people, I raid with them.

 

If you don't suck, dps meters won't matter.

 

If you don't like people spamming meters, point out that it's rude to spam - do it 10 times in a row to make your point if you need to. They'll get the hint. If they don't, you should boot them from your group.

 

DPS meters are neither a crutch, nor are the elitist. They're for progression, and for players to determine what works best for them. Anyone that uses them to epeen is simply using them wrong - but that's no reason to punish the rest of us.

 

Exactly. I truly can understand people who don't want DPS meters because of some elitist pr!ck in the past that had harassed them. But honestly why would you care if your not playing badly? Because they serve as a lightning rod to polarize the community? I submit that the aforementioned polarization already exists, and your choosing not to see it.

 

Not having a DPS meter is like not showing me my DPS/HPS/Protection at the end of a WZ. I need to see how I performed to play better the next time. Arguing for no statistics is comparable to giving everyone at the end of a WZ a "Winner!" caption. I know damn good and well everyone didn't perform the same, so why should we be rewarded the same?

[Caelrie]

The number one meters are bad is because statistically someone will always be on the bottom, does that make them a BAD player? No, it does not. They could just be having an off day, be distracted by something in real life and who knows what else. However, elitist jerks will frown upon the person who ends up at the bottom because they're simply on the bottom.

That actually DOES mean they're bad, at least on that day.

 

For example, say you could measure the DPS of every DPS player on the same boss and take the top 5 with the highest average and put them against each other. One of them will come out on the bottom. They won't be a bad player, but statistically, they'll suck.

Untrue, because the bottom DPS could be on the bottom by only 1%.

 

If someone is a bad player, or a mediocre player, who the hell are we to pass judgement on them? They are enjoying their playtime and that's the purpose of an MMO. If you don't like grouping with them, you leave the group.

This is a coop game. Everyone's fun matters. If 3 people are having fun and 1 is having fun but is leeching off the other 3, there's nothing wrong with booting him out of the group.

 

My MMO experience only extends out to LoTRO and FFXI, but my favourite experiences from both games are when I duo something with someone else that would normally take a group of six or more to kill/complete. That's where real 'skill' (I use the term skill lightly in any game reference) comes in, not min/maxing to be the best out of an 18 person raid or 4 person party.

 

Then if you don't want to do the big stuff anyway, why do you even care?

[Caelrie]

It wrecks the point that you are mistakenly applying to my post. My point has nothing to do with difficulty modes. I am talking about the divide between players that is created by rewarding people only for time spent. I played Mass Effect at the higher difficulty, it didn't take any more of my time than at the lower difficulty. There are also not other players from which I would be diverging at either difficulty.

 

Skill is not equal to time spent. That is the problem that most MMOs fall into, reducing challenge down to time. If it takes a while to get something, it must be more difficult. Meters feed this further, creating a necessity to get all the advantages time will buy.

 

It's not only time spent. Skill matters too.