Does Vanguard proc HiB as easily as a Commando

[Gyronamics]

So the limit is once every 6s

 

A basic rotation without any attempt to push things is:

 

Hammer Shot

Ion Pulse

Ion Pulse

HiB

 

Yep that's 6s.

 

Lets do it then. Cue one stylish yet poorly geared VG.

 

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/609154

 

And on the button every 6s is... a HiB proc.

 

What VG doesn't have is a 3s idler ability like FA or a low cost instant like Enet. As a result you really notice that doing rotations purely on 16 ammo instants is ammo negative so any rotation demands the use of Hammer Shots or deliberate delays which a Commando can avoid having to use.

 

More specifically, the 3s idler ability that Commando has is FA and that functionally takes the place of one proc ability. Normally it requires Charged Bolts x2 but a FA plus a CB is the same. The VG options are Ion Pulse and Stockstrike, both instant and 16 ammo.

 

All the 3s abilities a VG can use are neutral such as MV and Pulse Cannon so to use them requires missing the 6s proc point to carry out a late proc with any two of Ion Pulse/Stockstrike.

 

A lesser discussed detail is that VG gains more ammo to use while fighting which of course cannot be seen on dummy parses. The passive VG ability "Into the Fray" generates 2 ammo per 3 seconds if hit by AOE damage which is a common feature in boss fights. In regular AOE damage that's up to 50% more bonus regen. In other words up to 12 vs 8 ammo per 6 seconds on top of the basic regen. In a real fight this can give a VG more ammo to burn than a Commando.

 

TLDR: Yes

Edited March 4, 2014 by Gyronamics

[JMagee]

Very nice return on HiB proccing in your video.

 

Even the most stubborn person would admit using an ability that has a 45% chance to refund HiB and getting it to proc just about every time is just lucky.

 

Not even using the ability (Stock Strike) which has the higher (60% vs. 45%) chance to reset HiB sort of weakens your own argument. I know that sounds crazy since you had 100% proc chance. And based purely on Ionic accelerator definitions, the fact that Charged Bolts and Full Auto (45/75%) have higher inherent proc chances than IP/SS (45%/60%) already proves that in a large enough sample environment and in a vacuum, Commando will have more CD resets.

 

You can discuss ammo returns as well, and the Into the Fray, and even Parallactic Combat Stims do give ammo return. All valid points.

 

But the HiB proccing issue isn't a huge deal in and of itself. I'm sure you know well enough that the VG rotation is not IP-IP-HiB-HS-IP-IP-HiB etc. The issue is when you're trying to maximize your DPS output and your SS doesn't proc HiB, you have IR (or AP) falling off and your about to push yourself into a lower ammo regen regime because you can't get any return from HiB, so you simply have to HS. And after that HS you have to make the same decision and hope you get your proc back on schedule.

 

So without seeing an actual Assault VG rotation, to me, your video above shows nothing more than a nice 2min+ string of luck, which would happen ~45% of the time

Edited March 4, 2014 by JMagee

[Gyronamics]

You misunderstand, I make my own luck.

 

This was the demonstration I gave in May last year for commandos where I procced HiB virtually every 6th second:

 

 

People improved the rotation and devs changed costs which made it more viable but it demonstrated there is no luck in the proc, no rng.

 

I'm demonstrating now that the same proc system is with vanguards, if you use two proc abilities with the last one going off on the 6th second from your last proc, it will proc the HiB and there is no luck in it at all.

 

The chances are overridden and it becomes a 100% chance as long as you follow the patterns and rules of setting up each 6 second proc window.

 

 

The commando system resulted in commando assault being what it is now, question is can vanguards do the same if you understand the proc is not random and you can guarantee it.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Gyronamics

[JMagee]

Well, in that case, while what I say is still true, if there was any sort of underlying "You're wrong" tone, I take it back.

 

So, just so we're on the same page, it's your supposition, and it seems like you would suggest it more than that at this point, that if you IP or SS twice within the HiB ICD window, with the 2nd potential proc resetting ability occurring "exactly" 6 sec after the previous proc, than it removes the RNG and guarantees a HiB reset?

 

That's pretty interesting. There's been a lot of talk lately about the "forced" 2% alacrity bonus via Rapid Recharge that Assault VGs take in order to get to AP. Was this guaranteed proc return tested with this bonus. In a perfect world, in theory, it staggers the GCD and ICD such that unless you have human error or lag, your attacks are coming off GCD too quickly to ideally proc the HiB reset.

 

Very interesting.

[Gyronamics]

Yes as you said it so it is.

 

I'll describe example 6s rotations.

 

For commandos the proc is at the END of a cast of Charged Bolts

 

So a basic rotation which can be repeated infinitely is:

 

Well first thing is the first HiB proc really is random you might proc it on the first proc ability you use but if it doesnt proc on that then it will on the second.

 

Start off by using the available HiB:

 

Plasma Grenade

HiB

 

You'd then continue with an infinitely repeatable rotation which can be tweaked as you want as long as your second proc ability triggers on the 6s mark

 

Charged Bolts

Charged Bolts 1.5s (end of this cast procs HiB)

HiB 1.5s

Hammer Shots 3.0s

Charged Bolts 4.5s

Charged Bolts 6.0s (end of this cast procs HiB)

HiB 1.5s

Incendiary Round 3.0s

Charged Bolts 4.5s

Charged Bolts 6.0s (end of this cast procs HiB)

 

etc

 

Ofc you need a burn for the HiB to land on so every second rotation instead of Hammer Shots you'd be doing Incendiary Round or as you like.

 

For Vanguards Ion Pulse procs at the START of the ability because it's instant.

 

So we'd do:

 

Incendiary Round

HiB

Ion Pulse

Ion Pulse 1.5s <- start of this will proc

HiB 3.0s

Hammer Shots 4.5s

Ion Pulse 6.0s

Ion Pulse 1.5s <- start of this will proc

HiB 3.0s

 

And so on.

 

Unlike Commandos a VG can much more reliably keep the Plasma Cell dot going but same thing applies, it can be replaced with IR.

 

 

Alacrity messes with GCD and cast times and can cause the abilities to fall short of the 6s window which alacrity does NOT shorten. The forced 2% seems to not interfere too much but you will occasionally drop a proc which I speculate is minor rng factors and low latency.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Gyronamics

[TACeMossie]

Yeah the alacrity talent has caused many an issue with my attempts at running assault. Its a great spec and all, but that talent...

 

I'd ignore it for a different one if it weren't for the fact I like having Ammo-dump burst windows time up with Battle Focus.

 

And as for your comment about into the fray helping with giving ammo to burn:

 

A commando will regenerate 38 energy in the 6 second window, assuming one of them is a High Impact Bolt. It uses energy on 3 abilities (or 2 if one is full auto) so the cost will either be:

 

32 energy (Hammer Shots/RP Plasma Grenade + 2xPower Shot)

34 energy (Full Auto + Power Shot - Full auto is 18 energy right? or was it 16. Can't remember)

40 energy (Electro Net + 2xPowershot)

48 energy (TD/IM + 2xPower Shot)

 

For a vanguard though, we get 42 energy in a 6 second window, but the cost is gonna either be:

 

32 energy (Hammer shots + 1/2 Ion Pulse + possible Stockstrike)

48 energy (TD/IM + 1/2 Ion Pulse + possible Stockstrike)

but worst case scenario is when something comes up like this

 

[rotation] -> Stockstrike -> Hammer Shots -> Ion Pulse (Proc) -> Assault Plastique -> Incendiary Round -> High Impact Bolt -> Stockstrike -> (hope for proc) -> if previous step failed, Ion pulse. Else High Impact bolt.

 

If you dont start on any more than 96 energy, it pushes you into low regen values and ruins everything. Coincidentally, this also happens every 90 seconds, which means you need the damn alacrity talent to get the rotation working right

 

That damn 15 second cooldown on AP... It couldn't be 12, could it. Or better yet, 18. (Damage modified accordingly)

[Cotlu-Hunlon]

There was something really hypnotic about that video, Hotwired

 

And your Assault commando ACW from a while back with that Indian music on a loop .... I think I've seen that 3 times in full now >.>

[Cotlu-Hunlon]

Just been testing it out with my Powertech,

 

It doesn't have to be 2 of SS + IP as the last 2 attacks of the 6 sec window

eg: HIB > Hammer shot > IP > IP (proc)

 

It can also be

HIB> IP > Hammer shot > IP (proc)

 

so it's a little more flexible for ammo management

Edited March 21, 2014 by Cotlu-Hunlon

[drummerinthesun]

I don't have access to the game right now, but would VG be able to pull a similar no-brain rotation (not optimal obviously) like Commandos that would go something like this?

 

Assuming one burn up,

HiB>TD>IP>IP

HiB>IM>IP>IP

HiB>HS>IP>IP

 

Obviously you can throw in SS on cooldown instead of IP, but that was just an example repeatable rotation. Since Commandos rely on FA to be energy negative where I've put the HS>IP, I'm not sure this is sustainable. Can anyone confirm?