Gap Closer Drama

[Ottoattack]

There has been numerous request lately in both PT and VG forums requesting that jet charge/storm be base ability for PT/VG. I will explain nicely why this should not and will not happen.

 

To start off, the following are current melee spec and their gap closer:

 

Marauder, all 3 dps specs have leap and camouflage. Rage has and additional 10 meter leap.

Jugg, both dps specs have leap. Rage has and additional 10 meter leap.

Assassin, both dps specs have force speed and stealth.

Ops: both dps specs have roll and stealth.

PT: HO. Grapple, PvP only.

 

Range options:

Marauder: Carnage is heavy 4 meters class with only 3 main rotational skills that can be used at 10 meter, of which only one can be used at 30 meters, excluding leap. Annihilation is 4 meters class with only 1 skill usable at 30 meters. Rage has a couple of 10 meter options, but need to stay in melee to reduce CD of smash. All three specs need to stay in 4 meters range or damage drops significantly.

 

Jugg: Both specs have 1 skill usable at 30 meters, excluding leap. Rage is same as marauder, with veng range being more limited in 10 meter options. Both specs need to stay in 4 meters range or damage drops significantly.

 

Assassin: Deception is heavy 4 meters, but has 2 main skills in the rotation that are 10 meters. Hands down worst 30 meters options, as you need to use recklessness, which is on 90 sec CD to use force lightning which is not rotational. Madness has good 30 meter range options but as completely sucks in all aspects.

 

Operative: Concealment can use dart, grenade and regular attack at three meter, but all three do not deal damage (or dot). You need to be in 4 meters to do anything. Lethality, needs to use shiv every 6 seconds and back stab every 12 secs to maintain dps. You can stay at 10 meters but all you can do is dot.

 

PT: AP, all attacks are 10 meter except RP, which is on 9 sec CD and RB, which is used in PvE once every 15 secs. RS, ED and regular attack are 30 meters. Pyro, same as AP, except only needs to use RB in 4 meters.

 

PvP Analysis:

All of Marauder, jugg, sin and ops dps need to be in 4 meter range most or all the time to substantiate any meaningful damage in PvP, and all 10 meters damage options are on CD. PT filler (FB) is 10 meters. RS, which is PTs dps strongest attack is 30 meter (immolate for AP which is 10 meter). Both PTs dps have constant snare options that make kiting them almost impossible. Other melee classes need to keep playing catch with their target. Pyro in particular can stay in 10 meters range indefaintly, as you can substitute RP with FB. It is not ideal for damage, but great for kiting melee. Also, PT has the strongest knock back and root immunity, by a huge margin, compared to other melee classes. In addition, staying in 4 meters constantly is not needed and is not ideal.

 

Conclusion in PvP, jet charge will not be used against enemy melee in PvP, and kiting PT will go from almost impossible to 100% impossible for enemy ranged and healers.

 

PvE analysis:

For warriors, leap cost a GCD and does very weak damage. For assassins, force speed is off GCD. Ops roll cost GCD and resource (which will be removed and CD instated in 2.7) and does no damage. PTs, HO is off GCD. As PT, you have best range options of all melee classes and do not need to be in 4 meter range most of the time. In most situations you should be be in 10-15 meters range, and if the boss moves a lot PT has the best mobile dps of all melee dps (and used to be always top parser pre 2.0 in all fights boss moves a lot). Some fights, like Titan 6, the boss changes location completely, and in these situations, only warriors have a 30 meter gap closer. PTs are a head of both assasins and ops in terms of closing gap, considering time travel to get to the target and damage options.

 

PTs are parsing low on PvE, but gap closer is not the problem or the solution.

 

Jet charge instead of HO:

No, no and no. This will not improve dps in PvE at all (just a solution for lazy people who can move and atk at the same time), and kills PTs in PvP. Big part of PTs effectiveness and survivability in PvP comes from being mobile and hovering around 10 meters. Removing HO will remove PT's ability to stay in 10 meters effectively. One of the reasons PT was considered a glass cannon pre 2.0, because once you root them, they had little survivability and they are toast. In 2.0/2.4 the damage options and the range options helped improve survivability and mobility. Also, without HO the following classes will destroy PTs completely:

 

Snipers, all spec.

Madness sorc.

Carnage.

Assassins.

Concealment.

 

We either can go head-to-head with these or counter them. Removing HO will make kiting melee very difficult (if not impossible) and range will have superior advantage.

 

Conclusion:

PTs range gives them much better options than all other melee classes. In PvE would not result in damage increase. In PvP having it with HO is OP and removing HO and implementing JC will nerf PTs significantly.

 

PLEASE STOP REQUESTING JET CHARGE.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Ottoattack

[Salakast]

Your argument is logical and convincing, though perhaps a little PVP-centric.

 

The only counters to it I have are:

 

1. Jet charge is a fun ability and more people want access to it.

 

2. It doesn't make much sense to have a jet pack and only use it for adding impetus to smacking someone on the chops, gaining elevation for launching rockets at people and for a funny flamey-spinney thing, and not use it for leaping around from victim to victim. Which are more issues with the initial design than the current balance of the class and probably fall into the category 'too late now'.

[Brunner_Venda]

I'll re-post this from the other thread and explain why we don't need a leap/gap closer. Especially since we already have a pull, which is so powerful to have that it's more than enough.

 

Thing is, I play Tank PT and VG because of the leap, That and it's decent fun. I would play Pyro over tank if it had a leap.

 

Pyro doesn't need a GAP closer. Instead it has a snare on sweltering heat that hampers the mobility of a target considerably. You also have six seconds of immunity to roots and slows every 30 seconds. The sweltering heat slow can be re applied pretty much constantly, making any target permanently slower than you because it doesn't affect resolve.

 

AP runs 20% faster than anyone else with pneumatic boots, it also has a huge slow attached to retractable blade and prototype flame thrower. It also has 9-10 seconds of HO every 30 seconds. AP is the most mobile PT spec. It doesn't need a gap closer.

 

Tank needs a GAP closer to jump to an enemy that's threatening a healer. That's your job as a tank, to taunt that guy and absorb 50% of his DPS off of that healer. Tank gets six seconds of HO. It doesn't have pneumatic boots, retractable blade, or sweltering heat to control enemies.

 

Kooziejr isn't the most polite or eloquent guy sometimes, but this is exactly what he means by 'learn to play'. Learn to use the existing tools at your disposal to close gaps as a DPS. The tools are already ridiculously good. Use them!

[Kooziejr]

I really despise the noobs who keep asking for jet charge in spite of having the mechanics explained to them..... Go back to your smash marauder you idiots. Edited March 4, 2014 by Kooziejr

[Ottoattack]

I really despise the noobs who keep asking for jet charge in spite of having the mechanics explained to them..... Go back to your smash marauder you idiots.

 

Ya man it is unbelievable. And the funny part they never think it through as it has no impact on PvE dps output what so ever. At least every time someone mentions JC I can reference this thread and tell them L2P.

[TheSupaCoopa]

Duran'del here:

 

I think the problem is that a gap closer is something that is missing from the overall feel of the class. Did the clones or mandolorians jog to a far away target? NO! They charged the of used the jetpack.

 

The play style of a PT rewards those who get up close and personal and go for the face, bayformers-prime style(Sorry, this was the best comparison I could think of). We are a class designed to be aggressive and make the enemy go on the defensive. While Hydraulic Overrides is a great utility CD, it does nothing to improve your ability to chase someone down. Chasing after someone and spanning rapid shots just doesn't feel like something you'd see in the movies as a Bounty Hunter.

 

While its not a pressing matter, I do believe that the devs need to rethink their position on the matter of Jet Charge baseline. If a PTs utility resides on their toolkit, then we need a better toolkit. And that includes a forward gap closer and a backwards gap closer- something to make us truly unique.

Edited March 6, 2014 by TheSupaCoopa

[TheSupaCoopa]

I really despise the noobs who keep asking for jet charge in spite of having the mechanics explained to them..... Go back to your smash marauder you idiots.

 

Why are you such a jerk? Seriously?

 

I know the Power tech can perform in a 5-10m range, but that's not where our play style wants us to be. We're the most aggressive class in the game, meant to always be pushing forward and going for the face.

[ScytheEleven]

Why are you such a jerk? Seriously?

 

I know the Power tech can perform in a 5-10m range, but that's not where our play style wants us to be. We're the most aggressive class in the game, meant to always be pushing forward and going for the face.

 

Giving us Jet Charge, HO, and Grapple would just break the game. Giving us Jet Charge AND HO, even w/o Grapple, still makes us broken. Grapple's long, utility-based CD and HO being a short-burst movement increase is already pushing it for this DPS class.

 

It's not a matter of lore, or how we are supposed to "feel"...it's about balancing the game appropriately. Giving us Jet Charge as a DPS class would just be a sign of the Dev's throwing in the towel and saying "f**k this game".

[Kooziejr]

Why are you such a jerk? Seriously?

 

I know the Power tech can perform in a 5-10m range, but that's not where our play style wants us to be. We're the most aggressive class in the game, meant to always be pushing forward and going for the face.

 

haha I'm a jerk because in spite of having it explained to you 1000 times you continue to go on about it.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Kooziejr

[Kooziejr]

Duran'del here:

 

I think the problem is that a gap closer is something that is missing from the overall feel of the class. Did the clones or mandolorians jog to a far away target? NO! They charged the of used the jetpack.

 

The play style of a PT rewards those who get up close and personal and go for the face, bayformers-prime style(Sorry, this was the best comparison I could think of). We are a class designed to be aggressive and make the enemy go on the defensive. While Hydraulic Overrides is a great utility CD, it does nothing to improve your ability to chase someone down. Chasing after someone and spanning rapid shots just doesn't feel like something you'd see in the movies as a Bounty Hunter.

 

While its not a pressing matter, I do believe that the devs need to rethink their position on the matter of Jet Charge baseline. If a PTs utility resides on their toolkit, then we need a better toolkit. And that includes a forward gap closer and a backwards gap closer- something to make us truly unique.

 

srsly. G.T.F.O of this thread. Go play a sorc for a year (properly!) and then come back and tell me PTs need jet charge. The reasoning above this beyond stupid "Don't FEEL like a BH". Its a game you idiot - if you want to feel like a BH go strap on a jetpack IRL and blow some stuff up. Just because it "doesn't feel right" to you doesn't mean it isn't working and lots of other people aren't enjoying it.

 

Just swap classes. No one wants you hear asking for jet charge - make a reasonable suggestion or G.T.F.O

Edited March 6, 2014 by Kooziejr

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Giving us Jet Charge, HO, and Grapple would just break the game. Giving us Jet Charge AND HO, even w/o Grapple, still makes us broken. Grapple's long, utility-based CD and HO being a short-burst movement increase is already pushing it for this DPS class.

 

It's not a matter of lore, or how we are supposed to "feel"...it's about balancing the game appropriately. Giving us Jet Charge as a DPS class would just be a sign of the Dev's throwing in the towel and saying "f**k this game".

 

 

No, it would not "break the game" if anything giving us Jet Charge would make all the DPS Specs more akin to Rage, with Jet Charge = Force Charge, Hydraulic Overrides = Obliderate, and giving us extra utility by having Harpoon, also something that i would like to point out. Jet Charge does nothing for the tank spec except give it a free ~1.5K damage to open with. Otherwise, Jet Charge has no use... It has 0 extra threat, heck Harpoon doesnt even give the same threat as Force Pull! So if anything put Grapple in the Tank tree, buff it's Threat to be on par with Force Pull, and put Jet Charge in at level 22, Then give AP and Pyro a new talent to coordinate with Jet Charge, and go from there! There is NO issue with that. It isnt "Game Breaking" because Tanks can already have all 3 and be balanced! I dont get why you morons are opposed to this well thought out idea! It fits in with Lore, and isnt OP. Why can you morons not get that through your thick skulls?!?

[Luckeyduckey]

Would rather more DPS in PvE. That comes from a PvPer, too.

[Kooziejr]

No, it would not "break the game" if anything giving us Jet Charge would make all the DPS Specs more akin to Rage, with Jet Charge = Force Charge, Hydraulic Overrides = Obliderate, and giving us extra utility by having Harpoon, also something that i would like to point out. Jet Charge does nothing for the tank spec except give it a free ~1.5K damage to open with. Otherwise, Jet Charge has no use... It has 0 extra threat, heck Harpoon doesnt even give the same threat as Force Pull! So if anything put Grapple in the Tank tree, buff it's Threat to be on par with Force Pull, and put Jet Charge in at level 22, Then give AP and Pyro a new talent to coordinate with Jet Charge, and go from there! There is NO issue with that. It isnt "Game Breaking" because Tanks can already have all 3 and be balanced! I dont get why you morons are opposed to this well thought out idea! It fits in with Lore, and isnt OP. Why can you morons not get that through your thick skulls?!?

 

HAHAHAHA you clearly do not understand the concept of tanking. No comment to the rest - keep them coming guys. Laughs all round! Oh man...I actually really hope they put jet charge in for you derps just to see the 5hit storm that follows and the subsequent insanely massive nerf for 1 year following. Yes please give us jet charge. Also, make TD hit for 30k x 8 on 1.5 second cooldown and grapple 1.5 second cooldown and 10 minute CC. I WILL BE DA BEST POWERTECH EVA!

Edited March 6, 2014 by Kooziejr

[Kooziejr]

I really think our question should be.

 

1 + 2 + 3) We want jet charge cause we are bads.

[iddqdwtf]

I can see your points, especially in PVP, but i am more PVE (not endgame) concerned. Some of you may say now "NOOB ****, nothing counts before 55". Well, for me it does, as i want to have fun while leveling (as DPS) and doing flashpoints:

 

The tank opens the encounter (jumps in as Jugger, jet charges as PT or stealthes and/or force speeds in as Assassin) and all DPS go nuts. Range DDs have no problem at all to start right off the bat and the melee ones have their abilities (listed by OP) to start the combat wwaaaaayyy quicker than me. Sure, i can use my Rocket Blast (don't remember the correct name) while running, but this is highly inefficient heat-wise and their damage isn't that great. Rail Shot cannot be used until a bleed effect or something alike is applied, so i can't use that either. Leaves me open for using Rapid Shots, great.

 

This is not fun and it is not efficient to see all other DD go crazy on the target and i need 3 or more seconds to reach them. Yes, i have HO and it got FREAKING +30% movement speed... as i would notice it at all.

I am not mentioning grapple here for obvious reasons.

 

I don't force BW to GIEF ME JUMP PL0X or bothering with quitting the game as i love to play my PT, it would be just more convenient to have an appropriate "opener"

Edited March 6, 2014 by iddqdwtf

[Kooziejr]

I can see your points, especially in PVP, but i am more PVE (not endgame) concerned. Some of you may say now "NOOB ****, nothing counts before 55". Well, for me it does, as i want to have fun while leveling (as DPS) and doing flashpoints:

 

The tank opens the encounter (jumps in as Jugger, jet charges as PT or stealthes and/or force speeds in as Assassin) and all DPS go nuts. Range DDs have no problem at all to start right off the bat and the melee ones have their abilities (listed by OP) to start the combat wwaaaaayyy quicker than me. Sure, i can use my Rocket Blast (don't remember the correct name) while running, but this is highly inefficient heat-wise and their damage isn't that great. Rail Shot cannot be used until a bleed effect or something alike is applied, so i can't use that either. Leaves me open for using Rapid Shots, great.

 

This is not fun and it is not efficient to see all other DD go crazy on the target and i need 3 or more seconds to reach them. Yes, i have HO and it got FREAKING +30% movement speed... as i would notice it at all.

I am not mentioning grapple here for obvious reasons.

 

I don't force BW to GIEF ME JUMP PL0X or bothering with quitting the game as i love to play my PT, it would be just more convenient to have an appropriate "opener"

 

That's fair enough. In lowbie PvE it may be tedious due to not having all your abilities and being inexperienced with hybrid medium/short range class. However, there are certainly many tricks you can learn about being a PT. (e.g., start 15m from the boss before they engage - explosive dart opening then flame burst and so forth).

 

No one thinks PvE is for noobs - plenty of amazing players there.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Kooziejr

[Fazaani]

Gotta love how valid point's lose all their meaning when they are presented the underminding and rude way.

[Kooziejr]

Gotta love how valid point's lose all their meaning when they are presented the underminding and rude way.

 

I tried civil. It didn't work.

[Fazaani]

Still... i did read all your post's on this thread only and all what i took with me in general: was that there was this rude dude who was calling everybody a noob if they even brought up the matter, he was laughing up to them, being rude and so on so on...

 

So as i only said, though i remember that you did have some point in ur ranting i don't remember what it was just that you like to insult ppl.

 

But ofc you write just as you like and thats ok

Edited March 6, 2014 by Fazaani

[Kooziejr]

Still... i did read all your post's on this thread only and all what i took with me in general: was that there was this rude dude who was calling everybody a noob if they even brought up the matter, he was laughing up to them, being rude and so on so on...

 

So as i only said, though i remember that you did have some point in ur ranting i don't remember what it was just that you like to insult ppl.

 

But ofc you write just as you like and thats ok

 

Your point is fair. Asking for something very stupid when they don't understand the class will not gain pleasant comments from me. I make no apologies for that.

 

No player can take seriously "tanks don't have a use for jet charge" I'm sorry for laughing if that offended you but I genuinely found that hilarious and summed up that players understanding of the game.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Kooziejr

[TheSupaCoopa]

Would be kinda cool if the devs gave us a little "PTS" style server to test if a PT having a leap, a pull, and a tactical(Hydraulic Overrides).

[ScytheEleven]

No, it would not "break the game" if anything giving us Jet Charge would make all the DPS Specs more akin to Rage, with Jet Charge = Force Charge, Hydraulic Overrides = Obliderate, and giving us extra utility by having Harpoon, also something that i would like to point out. Jet Charge does nothing for the tank spec except give it a free ~1.5K damage to open with. Otherwise, Jet Charge has no use... It has 0 extra threat, heck Harpoon doesnt even give the same threat as Force Pull! So if anything put Grapple in the Tank tree, buff it's Threat to be on par with Force Pull, and put Jet Charge in at level 22, Then give AP and Pyro a new talent to coordinate with Jet Charge, and go from there! There is NO issue with that. It isnt "Game Breaking" because Tanks can already have all 3 and be balanced! I dont get why you morons are opposed to this well thought out idea! It fits in with Lore, and isnt OP. Why can you morons not get that through your thick skulls?!?

 

Please do your best to explain to me how another class would be able to counter a DPS PT in PVP when he has Jet Charge, HO, and Grapple. I am eager to hear how this is balanced. With how strong DPS PT's are right now in PVP, it can't be done without the nerf bat swinging down HARD.

 

 

Also, you are looking at Jet Charge for tanks all wrong. Tanks NEED an ability to leap to targets so they can PEEL for allies efficiently. It isn't a matter of threat or damage. Why do you think Sin tanks get a Force Speed that breaks all roots? Because it looks cool? No, it's to allow them to stay near those that they are guarding in PVP and swap fluidly in PVP.

Edited March 6, 2014 by ScytheEleven

[Fazaani]

Your point is fair. Asking for something very stupid when they don't understand the class will not gain pleasant comments from me. I make no apologies for that.

 

No player can take seriously "tanks don't have a use for jet charge" I'm sorry for laughing if that offended you but I genuinely found that hilarious and summed up that players understanding of the game.

 

And ofc you don't need to and as i said you write just as you like. My orginal comment was about that even good point's bury under rant. And as such it mold's the opinnion of you and as this case just leaves bad first impression

 

Ofc rant is pretty much main gain on these forums... Anyways carry on sir... my "i'm so much better man" mission is filled for today...

[Kooziejr]

And ofc you don't need to and as i said you write just as you like. My orginal comment was about that even good point's bury under rant. And as such it mold's the opinnion of you and as this case just leaves bad first impression

 

Ofc rant is pretty much main gain on these forums... Anyways carry on sir... my "i'm so much better man" mission is filled for today...

 

You mean you're condescension? Good on you man! You certainly showed me how to be less sarcastic/less of a jerk by being one yourself! Grats!

 

Oh and in case you hadn't noticed I don't care who likes/dislikes me on the forums :-) - I speak my mind in the hope it benefits the majority of players.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Kooziejr

[Kooziejr]

Also, you are looking at Jet Charge for tanks all wrong. Tanks NEED an ability to leap to targets so they can PEEL for allies efficiently. It isn't a matter of threat or damage. Why do you think Sin tanks get a Force Speed that breaks all roots? Because it looks cool? No, it's to allow them to stay near those that they are guarding in PVP and swap fluidly in PVP.

 

It seems like in some people's minds Tank and DPS are synonymous with the tank just doing less damage. Hence my profound laughter before in the thread!