The BattleZone Winner's Bracket Match 4: Kit Fisto vs. Savage Opress

[Selenial]

Beni, those are ridiculous assumptions to say the least.

 

Mainly, because even without Nightsister magic, ventress was stronger than Savage.

 

With Nighsister magic, maul overpowered Savage, and there is no evidence that savage is in better shape, or can take more of a beating, than Maul.

 

But glad to see the stats are being used

[Aurbere]

I'm not too keen on those stats, Beni. You're basically saying that Savage is way, way better than Vader in all things, which I find quite preposterous.

[Beniboybling]

Beni, those are ridiculous assumptions to say the least.

 

Mainly, because even without Nightsister magic, ventress was stronger than Savage.

 

With Nighsister magic, maul overpowered Savage, and there is no evidence that savage is in better shape, or can take more of a beating, than Maul.

 

But glad to see the stats are being used

Ventress was never stronger than Savage. He went toe-to-toe with her in hand to hand combat and threw her around the place like a ragdoll, and when he punched stone it left a dent. Ventress has not matched these feats.

 

Ventress beat him because at that point she was faster, not stronger. Even Fisto seems to be stronger than Ventress, I highly doubt a trained Dathomirian Zabrak who dedicate their lives to physical combat would be weaker.

 

Regardless, its irrelevant, even if Ventress was stronger than Savage pre-transformation she certainly wasn't when he was imbued with Nighsister magick, so I'm really not sure what on earth your point is there.

 

When did Maul overpower Savage in a pure contest of strength? And are you really suggesting that Maul could recover as well as Savage from what he has endured and ignoring the fact that Maul is dwarfed by his height and musculature?

[Selenial]

Also... Beni, hate to break it to you, but being taller and bigger generally means weaker.

 

In laymen's terms, Body Weight has a detrimental effect on muscles by a cubed basis. Being 2x Taller, 2x Wider and 2x thicker means that it's 8x the stretch on the muscles.

But muscle length does not count for ****, so it's width and Height. That means being 2x of each, means muscle strength increases by 4x, making you half a strong comparatively as before.

 

Now, obviously, increasing size here will benefit Savage, I'm just saying it's not like increasing Height means you increase strength etc by the same amount, thus using Savages weight/height to bump up his stats is not an accurate description.

 

Again, that's dumbed down, and I'm sure you probably knew it, just wanted to point out the flaws I see in that logic.

[Beniboybling]

I'm not too keen on those stats, Beni. You're basically saying that Savage is way, way better than Vader in all things, which I find quite preposterous.

What are Vader's stats? Anyway, I'd say without a doubt that Savage is stronger than Vader. I'm not sure how they rate endurance, do they take his suit into account? Because if they don't then Savage clearly wins there... I'm not sure they can take the suit into account. And would they take his suit into account in terms of strength too? I guess so.

 

In regards to dexterity, consider that Vader's suit limited just that. Even though he overcame it somewhat, he would still often resort to clumsy moves and I expect he was limited in terms of reach etc. The doppleganger Maul was also faster than Vader. And I think the evidence that Savage = Maul in terms of speed is sound.

 

So yeah, in terms of physical ability, I'd give Savage all three edges.

[Selenial]

When did Maul overpower Savage in a pure contest of strength? And are you really suggesting that Maul could recover as well as Savage from what he has endured and ignoring the fact that Maul is dwarfed by his height and musculature?

 

After they robed that space station, maul literally roflstomped him.

 

And Mauls taken huge beatings, the like Savage has not.

 

Maul has walked through Lightning, and a distracted Dooku could produced lightning for 3 seconds, that stunned savage for about 10.

 

That, and a kick from Sidious, winded him IIRC.

[Beniboybling]

Also... Beni, hate to break it to you, but being taller and bigger generally means weaker.

 

In laymen's terms, Body Weight has a detrimental effect on muscles by a cubed basis. Being 2x Taller, 2x Wider and 2x thicker means that it's 8x the stretch on the muscles.

But muscle length does not count for ****, so it's width and Height. That means being 2x of each, means muscle strength increases by 4x, making you half a strong comparatively as before.

 

Now, obviously, increasing size here will benefit Savage, I'm just saying it's not like increasing Height means you increase strength etc by the same amount, thus using Savages weight/height to bump up his stats is not an accurate description.

 

Again, that's dumbed down, and I'm sure you probably knew it, just wanted to point out the flaws I see in that logic.

But Savage got stronger, so how does that work?

[Selenial]

What are Vader's stats? Anyway, I'd say without a doubt that Savage is stronger than Vader. I'm not sure how they rate endurance, do they take his suit into account? Because if they don't then Savage clearly wins there... I'm not sure they can take the suit into account. And would they take his suit into account in terms of strength too? I guess so.

 

In regards to dexterity, consider that Vader's suit limited just that. Even though he overcame it somewhat, he would still often resort to clumsy moves and I expect he was limited in terms of reach etc. The doppleganger Maul was also faster than Vader. And I think the evidence that Savage = Maul in terms of speed is sound.

 

So yeah, in terms of physical ability, I'd give Savage all three edges.

 

Just thought id let you know, those stats are higher than anyone else in the entire Stat guide series.

 

Maul himself is the highest for Dexterity, the best strength is Sion, same for constitution IIRC, but none are close to Savage.

 

Kenobi, who's matched him in a blade lock, got 13 strength or something.

[Selenial]

But Savage got stronger, so how does that work?

 

He did, I didn't say he got weaker.

I said you can't comparatively compare his size increase to his muscle power, just because he appeared to be much larger and more dominant, does not mean he was much stronger. He got stronger, Duh, but he wouldn't have gotten as strong as he would Durable, etc.

[Aurbere]

What are Vader's stats? Anyway, I'd say without a doubt that Savage is stronger than Vader. I'm not sure how they rate endurance, do they take his suit into account? Because if they don't then Savage clearly wins there... I'm not sure they can take the suit into account. And would they take his suit into account in terms of strength too? I guess so.

 

In regards to dexterity, consider that Vader's suit limited just that. Even though he overcame it somewhat, he would still often resort to clumsy moves and I expect he was limited in terms of reach etc. The doppleganger Maul was also faster than Vader. And I think the evidence that Savage = Maul in terms of speed is sound.

 

So yeah, in terms of physical ability, I'd give Savage all three edges.

 

The stats do consider Vader in the suit. Your stats make Savage completely dwarf him.

[Beniboybling]

After they robed that space station, maul literally roflstomped him.

 

And Mauls taken huge beatings, the like Savage has not.

 

Maul has walked through Lightning, and a distracted Dooku could produced lightning for 3 seconds, that stunned savage for about 10.

 

That, and a kick from Sidious, winded him IIRC.

I thought you were referring to that. It never comes down to a contest of strength, Savage rushes Maul and he exploits an opening in his style, grabs and twists his wrist and then as Savage is exposed he clamps his mechanical foot on his face and pins him to the ground. That duel was not won through strength.

 

On top of that not a single duelist has been unable to withstand the strength of Maul's blows. Every duelist Savage has fought, save Sidious, has struggled. Kenobi was utterly devastated when caught off guard.

 

Anyway, Savage has been shot at from all angles by roughly 15 shooters and still managed to escape without dying or falling unconscious, after being electrocuted over and over by Dooku. He's also had his arm severed and his leg broken yet still was able to escape Florrum while carrying his brother seemingly unphased by his injuries.

 

Maul has likely been trained to resist Force Lightning in such a manner, though the lightning of a Nightsister does not even begin to compare to the lightning producible by Count Dooku, a powerful Sith Lord.

 

And yeah, because Maul would not be winded by a kick from the most powerful dark sider in galactic history either.

 

He was imbued with gosh darn Nightsister magicks, he is stronger and more durable than Maul. Period. If he isn't then he loses this battle hands down and he should have lost his battle against Quinlan Vos as well. I cannot even believe we are having this discussion, Maul isn't even stronger than Ventress and Savage surpassed her pre-transformation.

 

Or are you going to argue that Fisto is stronger than Savage as well? Who next, Adi? Oh wait she's dead.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

The stats do consider Vader in the suit. Your stats make Savage completely dwarf him.

What are the stats!

[Aurbere]

What are the stats!

 

Vader: S-16* D-16 C-17* *=Without Vaders suit's painkillers and steroids functioning, significantly less.

[Beniboybling]

Just thought id let you know, those stats are higher than anyone else in the entire Stat guide series.

 

Maul himself is the highest for Dexterity, the best strength is Sion, same for constitution IIRC, but none are close to Savage.

 

Kenobi, who's matched him in a blade lock, got 13 strength or something.

Which makes sense, considering that Savage is inhumanely powerful.

 

And actually, when unable to use Soresu Savage disarmed Kenobi after three strikes.

[Beniboybling]

He did, I didn't say he got weaker.

I said you can't comparatively compare his size increase to his muscle power, just because he appeared to be much larger and more dominant, does not mean he was much stronger. He got stronger, Duh, but he wouldn't have gotten as strong as he would Durable, etc.

Erm, you kinda did:

 

Also... Beni, hate to break it to you, but being taller and bigger generally means weaker.

 

I assume that therefore means that becoming larger, he grew weaker, but instead he got stronger. But if that is not what you mean then I am confused. Though you were dealing with numbers earlier so perhaps this can be factored in?

[Selenial]

Erm, you kinda did:

 

Also... Beni, hate to break it to you, but being taller and bigger generally means weaker.

 

I assume that therefore means that becoming larger, he grew weaker, but instead he got stronger. But if that is not what you mean then I am confused. Though you were dealing with numbers earlier so perhaps this can be factored in?

 

I meant comparatively

It was just a point about why basing muscle growth off size is grossly incorrect, biologically speaking...

[Wolfninjajedi]

I thought we agreed to not use stats because weren't worth anything because they were non-canon to begin with?

[Selenial]

I thought you were referring to that. It never comes down to a contest of strength, Savage rushes Maul and he exploits an opening in his style, grabs and twists his wrist and then as Savage is exposed he clamps his mechanical foot on his face and pins him to the ground. That duel was not won through strength.

 

On top of that not a single duelist has been unable to withstand the strength of Maul's blows. Every duelist Savage has fought, save Sidious, has struggled. Kenobi was utterly devastated when caught off guard.

 

Anyway, Savage has been shot at from all angles by roughly 15 shooters and still managed to escape without dying or falling unconscious, after being electrocuted over and over by Dooku. He's also had his arm severed and his leg broken yet still was able to escape Florrum while carrying his brother seemingly unphased by his injuries.

 

Maul has likely been trained to resist Force Lightning in such a manner, though the lightning of a Nightsister does not even begin to compare to the lightning producible by Count Dooku, a powerful Sith Lord.

 

And yeah, because Maul would not be winded by a kick from the most powerful dark sider in galactic history either.

 

He was imbued with gosh darn Nightsister magicks, he is stronger and more durable than Maul. Period. If he isn't then he loses this battle hands down and he should have lost his battle against Quinlan Vos as well. I cannot even believe we are having this discussion, Maul isn't even stronger than Ventress and Savage surpassed her pre-transformation.

 

Or are you going to argue that Fisto is stronger than Savage as well? Who next, Adi? Oh wait she's dead.

Maul kicks him over.... Strength.

Kenobi was caught off guard... Exactly. But he blade locked Svaage, as did Ventress.

 

His armor was blaster proof. And battle droids suck at aiming for the head.

 

Walking through continuous streams of lightning > being taken out by tiny bursts.

 

He'd be winded, but not enough to die

 

And no.

I just don't think Savage is a Ridiculous 22. He's so not as Agile as maul, Mauls shown amazing dexterity and Savage is a brute. Constitutions too high too, seeing as an Immortal guy only got 20.

[Beniboybling]

Vader: S-16* D-16 C-17* *=Without Vaders suit's painkillers and steroids functioning, significantly less.

OK, so that's 38% stronger, 19% faster and 70% more durable.

 

That is less of a difference than Fisto. And I think in part believable. Savage's physical strength feats as far as I'm aware outstrip Vader's pretty definitively. And I don't think cybernetic arms compare with magically enhanced ones.

 

19% faster, that is fairly minimal. And it makes sense, like it or not Vader's dexterity got worse, not better when he donned that suit. And Maul outmaneuvered him pretty handily, I feel Savage could potentially do the same. He is big, but he's also incredibly fast, I mean dodging every attack of a Jedi Master? I doubt Vader could pull that off.

 

Now constitution does seem a little off, but then we don't really no Savage's full capabilities in this matter. And considering that he is still ultimately flesh and bone, I doubt is endurance increased as much as previous stated.

[Beniboybling]

I thought we agreed to not use stats because weren't worth anything because they were non-canon to begin with?

And didn't someone respond to that with a quote from Leland Chee saying that they are?

[Selenial]

I thought we agreed to not use stats because weren't worth anything because they were non-canon to begin with?

 

According to Che, they're an accurate enough description of a characters physical prowess... Which is why Only Strength, Constitution and Dexterity are being used.

I assume that is also why Jensaarai uses only those 3.

[Wolfninjajedi]

According to Che, they're an accurate enough description of a characters physical prowess... Which is why Only Strength, Constitution and Dexterity are being used.

I assume that is also why Jensaarai uses only those 3.

 

And didn't someone respond to that with a quote from Leland Chee saying that they are?

 

Source? Because here says a diff thing..

 

Stats, on the contrary, are considered game mechanics. Stats include details such as weapon damage, speed, and character attributes (strength, intelligence, dexterity, health points etc).

[Selenial]

Source? Because here says a diff thing..

 

He refers there to In game stats.

 

These are all sourcebook stats, and I can give you the exact sourcebooks for each if you want...

 

Edit: At least, I believe that's what he means, that or he contradicts himself. If guess that quote refers to things like Clone wars lightsaber duels, TFU multiplayer stats, Battlefront, empire at war ETC.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Selenial

[Wolfninjajedi]

He refers there to In game stats.

 

These are all sourcebook stats, and I can give you the exact sourcebooks for each if you want...

 

Edit: At least, I believe that's what he means, that or he contradicts himself. If guess that quote refers to things like Clone wars lightsaber duels, TFU multiplayer stats, Battlefront, empire at war ETC.

 

I'm good...I prefer feats rather then just listed stats to gauge something least in regards to strength/durability and so on....less confusing seeing as Aurbere is confused.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Maul kicks him over.... Strength.

Kenobi was caught off guard... Exactly. But he blade locked Svaage, as did Ventress.

 

His armor was blaster proof. And battle droids suck at aiming for the head.

 

Walking through continuous streams of lightning > being taken out by tiny bursts.

 

He'd be winded, but not enough to die

 

And no.

I just don't think Savage is a Ridiculous 22. He's so not as Agile as maul, Mauls shown amazing dexterity and Savage is a brute. Constitutions too high too, seeing as an Immortal guy only got 20.

He clasps a mechanical foot to his head and uses gravitation forces to tip him. Noting that this is Maul with mechanical legs and god knows what else improved, not Maul as the stats portray him.

 

Blaster bolts can cut through durasteel, I doubt it was fully blaster proof. Well done for conveniently overlooking the situation in which he carries Maul off with a severed arm and broken leg though. Cause that ain't important.

 

Dooku > Nightsister tens times over. That and Maul likely had developed a resistance.

 

Savage was not killed from the kick in the chest lol, he was killed by Sidious' superior speed.

 

At least admit Savage is stronger than Maul, is patently obvious. Especially as apparently Ventress = Maul in strength. Amazing dexterity? I think dodging the blows of an agile Jedi Master probably matches Maul's speed.

 

But anyway, I'll take another lookiee on the morrow. Any assistance would be welcome.