The BattleZone Winner's Bracket Match 4: Kit Fisto vs. Savage Opress

[Aurbere]

Aubere you going to help me out? Not sure I can go at it alone.

 

I like to stay neutral for these, but I will counter points as I see fit.

 

Starting with yours!

 

Tomorrow...

[ShadowMudkip]

I like to stay neutral for these, but I will counter points as I see fit.

 

Starting with yours!

 

Tomorrow...

 

I'm a sad Jawa.

[fellblade]

No Kit Fisto love from me I am afraid...

 

I admit to not being unbiased as (most of you probably already know) Kit Fisto is one of my Least Favourite Jedi and I personally find him to be somewhat Overrated due to his showings against Grievous (a Foe who they mistakenly gave a specific weakness to Fisto's Style)

but Overall he hasn't really Impressed me that much.

 

I think that Savage as a whole Package could beat Fisto - Maybe Fisto is the Master of Shii Cho but ultimately it is a basic style (and If Ventress was able to analyse it after seeing him fight once it reveals the limited potential of this path - it is pretty much the opposite of Exar Kun's mastery of Niman) I don't see Fisto as a sophisticated saber Technician - it seems that in actuality a lot of his Effectiveness comes from his speed and rapidity of his attacks.

I'll give Fisto a Speed Advantage (but not to the degree where I think he can run circles around Savage or too quick for Savage to be able defend at all against - If Savage can hit Ventress then I think he can hit Fisto) - I will give Savage a Strength and Resilience/Recovery advantage as well as his Telekinetic bursts appearing to be more powerful - (Savage's Telekinetics visibly hit Harder and Push Farther and seem to have more of a disorienting effect on his opponents).

 

Fisto it seems to me, needs to be on the offensive to be most effective so I think he will go for Savage head on I don't think he can afford to just defend - I personally see Plo Koon as a better Duelist than Fisto so If Savage is a viable challenge for Plo Koon then I think he can Give Fisto all kinds of problems. I don't think Fisto has any specific stylistic advantage over Savage either but he does have experience over him (but pretty much anyone that Savage has fought has experience over him)

I see Savage also having an advantage being able to mixing in hand to hand effectively - Savage was able to disarm Ventress of her lightsaber with just the effects of a punch to the body - I think any hand to hand blows that Fisto uses will pretty much be negated by Savage's toughness

 

Similarly to when he beat Adi Gallia, I see Savage being able to force some kind of significant Opening against Fisto and Finishing him off.

[Beniboybling]

Ok here goes. Kit Fisto, like Aubere mentioned, was a master of Shii Cho. Fisto preferred agility and evasion over head on attacks. Savage has great power and is pretty bulky, but he is extremely slow and sloppy. If Savage can not land a blow on Fisto then Savage will never win. Additionally, because Savage is slow, he will be unable to properly block the agile Fisto.

 

While Savage has fought many Jedi, it is unlikely that he has encountered an individual with such a radical fighting style. If Savage does not find ways to defend against and map out his opponents fighting style early in the fight, Fisto's speed may be Savage's undoing.

 

Aubere you going to help me out? Not sure I can go at it alone.

You exaggerate, Savage is not 'slow'. His attacks are certainly more slow and laborious than others, but this is simply a facet of the strong style, many other wielders of this form are able to move with sufficient agility. The only individual who has been able to properly evade Savage's attacks in the manner you describe is Count Dooku - who was able to keep up with Yoda himself. Which in turn indicates he could stand against Sidious, something Fisto could not do.

 

Simply put, Fisto is not as fast as Dooku. Perhaps more acrobatic in his style, but he is not capable of moving faster. And guess what? Despite that Savage actually succeeded in landing a blow, and it sent him flying.

 

Savage will eventually land a significant blow, and when he does it will hit very hard.

 

You'll also find its very difficult to attack and evade simalteuosly, if all Fisto does it dodge dodge dodge he'll never land a hit, he'll have to engage Savage at some point. Which brings us on to attack, not only can Savage overwhelm Fisto in a blade lock (he was even able to push Sidious back) but he is more than capable of blocking. Not only does he have a double bladed lightsaber but he has excellent reflexes. For example

, and as Fellblade mentioned, here.

 

*Also note the speed of his swift counterattack, this clearly agile Jedi Master is caught completely of guard by his rapid 'taps' which in turn are characteristic of the double-bladed lightsaber. He can use this against Fisto.

 

We should also take into account Savage's endurance, any minor blows Fisto manages to land will be swiftly recuperated and even when grievously injured Savage will fight on. Fisto on the other hand, will not.

 

And finally, Fisto's style is pretty damn simple. Its powerful yes, but its not complex. Its comprised of basic attacks and basic blocks, nothing Savage hasn't encountered before, nor does he have any stylistic advantages.

 

Altogether I originally thought Savage would lose, but on closer examination he has all the advantages. Fisto may be fast and able to evade many of Savage's attacks, but Savage arguably has the better reflexes and with a saberstaff is more than capable of blocking each and every of Fisto's return strikes. The only reason his attacks are sometimes slow is because he has to maneuver his large saberstaff and put strength behind the blows. Savage will hold out against Fisto, he'll return fire, Fisto will slowly be weathered down or even knocked down and will inevitably be killed.

 

Its highly unlikely Fisto will be able to outmaneuver and wound Savage, his style isn't even geared towards that - but its the only way he can win, as I've explained brute force won't work, and Savage won't leave limbs exposed - he just isn't fast enough. Its that simple, and that eliminates Fisto's only avenue of victory. Force and Physical attacks won't work.

 

EDIT: In regards to simplicity, Fisto's defensive manoeuvres are basic as well. Just standard blocks, he doesn't try to redirect the impact of the attack like the more refined and complex Soresu and Makashi forms. Just blocks.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

I admit to not being unbiased as (most of you probably already know) Kit Fisto is one of my Least Favourite Jedi and I personally find him to be somewhat Overrated due to his showings against Grievous (a Foe who they mistakenly gave a specific weakness to Fisto's Style) but Overall he hasn't really Impressed me that much.

If you are referring to the whole multiple weapons thing, yeah I'm not sure about that either. However Grievous in many ways would have replicated being attacked from multiple angles. Anyway, I think the main reason was the simplicity of Fisto's style. It allowed him to place less concentration on himself and more on Grievous, allowing him to more easily make sense of the unorthodoxy of his style and exploit weaknesses in it.

 

But anyway, great points.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Beniboybling

[sell-dog]

 

You'll also find its very difficult to attack and evade simalteuosly, if all Fisto does it dodge dodge dodge he'll never land a hit, he'll have to engage Savage at some point. Which brings us on to attack, not only can Savage overwhelm Fisto in a blade lock (he was even able to push Sidious back) but he is more than capable of blocking. Not only does he have a double bladed lightsaber but he has excellent reflexes. For example here*, and as Fellblade mentioned, here.

 

*Also note the speed of his swift counterattack, this clearly agile Jedi Master is caught completely of guard by his rapid 'taps' which in turn are characteristic of the double-bladed lightsaber. He can use this against Fisto.

 

I have a good guess as to what you're referring to here but the links aren't present

[Beniboybling]

I have a good guess as to what you're referring to here but the links aren't present

Oops, I keep doing that. I get the links all set up then just delete the window. LOL.

 

Fixed now. Go! Revel in Savage's dominance! For the fifth time!

[Aurbere]

Suppose I should get to countering some points. I'll be gentle, promise.

 

Ok here goes. Kit Fisto, like Aubere mentioned, was a master of Shii Cho. Fisto preferred agility and evasion over head on attacks. Savage has great power and is pretty bulky, but he is extremely slow and sloppy. If Savage can not land a blow on Fisto then Savage will never win. Additionally, because Savage is slow, he will be unable to properly block the agile Fisto.

 

While Savage has fought many Jedi, it is unlikely that he has encountered an individual with such a radical fighting style. If Savage does not find ways to defend against and map out his opponents fighting style early in the fight, Fisto's speed may be Savage's undoing.

 

Aubere you going to help me out? Not sure I can go at it alone.

 

Savage isn't "extremely" slow (he's given more credit to his speed than he deserves, though). He can keep up with his enemies, but he isn't one to dance on the balls of his feet. Fisto won't be able to defeat him through pure speed, especially since Savage has been able to hold off opponents of equal or near equal speed, namely Asajj Ventress.

 

I think that Savage as a whole Package could beat Fisto - Maybe Fisto is the Master of Shii Cho but ultimately it is a basic style (and If Ventress was able to analyse it after seeing him fight once it reveals the limited potential of this path - it is pretty much the opposite of Exar Kun's mastery of Niman) I don't see Fisto as a sophisticated saber Technician - it seems that in actuality a lot of his Effectiveness comes from his speed and rapidity of his attacks.

 

Fisto's application of Shii-Cho is highly random and unpredictable. We can't use the Asajj Ventress argument to help Savage's cause because Ventress and Savage have two very different mentalities. Ventress is an expert Jedi Hunter and dueling tactician, Savage is a brute with the simple goal of grinding his opponent into the ground through sheer strength.

 

Incomparable, I think.

 

You'll also find its very difficult to attack and evade simalteuosly, if all Fisto does it dodge dodge dodge he'll never land a hit, he'll have to engage Savage at some point.

 

No big response to counter your big post, Beni. Just going to pick out this one spot because the rest I have already discussed elsewhere, or I find the points unassailable. Just going to pick at this.

 

If Plo Koon was able to evade and strike Savage simultaneously, Fisto can. Kit Fisto is faster than Plo Koon, much to my chagrin. So it is possible that Fisto can effectively dodge and strike Savage, since he managed to do the same to General Grievous. Grievous' it should be noted, was (IIRC) starting to overwhelm Obi-Wan's defense during the Utapau duel. Fast, yes?

[Beniboybling]

No big response to counter your big post, Beni. Just going to pick out this one spot because the rest I have already discussed elsewhere, or I find the points unassailable. Just going to pick at this.

 

If Plo Koon was able to evade and strike Savage simultaneously, Fisto can. Kit Fisto is faster than Plo Koon, much to my chagrin. So it is possible that Fisto can effectively dodge and strike Savage, since he managed to do the same to General Grievous. Grievous' it should be noted, was (IIRC) starting to overwhelm Obi-Wan's defense during the Utapau duel. Fast, yes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCTtT2jQmwA&t=0m5s

 

Anyway that's not my point, let me be more clear. I'm aware that Fisto can dodge then strike, he will. But the problem is that that involves clashing blades, if he wants to attack Savage properly he's going to have to be prepared to take him head on. The blows that connect with Savage's blade will be shrugged off, he may even be thrown off-balance, the impact itself expending Fisto's energy as their blades collide, and if they enter a blade lock Fisto is in trouble.

 

This is point, when you engage in a lightsaber duel it isn't just attack > defend, its all to often attack > < attack. Basically, Fisto can't dodge all Savage's attacks and engage him at the same time. Its just too difficult to both predict your opponents every attack and only attack when its impossible for your opponent to attack themselves. And even when striking at a defensive stance Savage can still drive him back in a similar manner and stagger him.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCTtT2jQmwA

 

Of course not, I think.

 

Anyway that's not my point, let me be more clear. I'm aware that Fisto can dodge then strike, he will. But the problem is that that involves clashing blades, if he wants to attack Savage properly he's going to have to be prepared to take him head on. The blows that connect with Savage's blade will be shrugged off, he may even be thrown off-balance, the impact itself expending Fisto's energy as their blades collide, and if they enter a blade lock Fisto is in trouble.

 

This is point, when you engage in a lightsaber duel it isn't just attack > defend, its all to often attack > < attack. Basically, Fisto can't dodge all Savage's attacks and engage him at the same time. Its just too difficult to both predict your opponents every attack and only attack when its impossible for your opponent to attack themselves. And even when striking at a defensive stance Savage can still drive him back in a similar manner and stagger him.

 

Anyway, Fisto can dodge then strike Savage. Savage has shown a major weakness in this area. He telegraphs, something that several of his opponents have taken advantage of. Obi-Wan (twice, once he even sucker punches him), Halsey (and Adi, though they were both ineffective), Ventress, and Plo Koon have all evaded and counter-attacked Savage before he can recover from his attacks. We can't disregard these examples.

 

Granted he's managed to win/survive these battles, but the fact remains that Fisto can effectively exploit this glaring weakness in Savage's fighting style.

 

I'm fairly sure you don't disagree with the main point, but I guess I'm just reinforcing the point. Someone has to do it, right?

[Beniboybling]

Anyway, Fisto can dodge then strike Savage. Savage has shown a major weakness in this area. He telegraphs, something that several of his opponents have taken advantage of. Obi-Wan (twice, once he even sucker punches him), Halsey (and Adi, though they were both ineffective), Ventress, and Plo Koon have all evaded and counter-attacked Savage before he can recover from his attacks. We can't disregard these examples.

 

Granted he's managed to win/survive these battles, but the fact remains that Fisto can effectively exploit this glaring weakness in Savage's fighting style.

 

I'm fairly sure you don't disagree with the main point, but I guess I'm just reinforcing the point. Someone has to do it, right?

He telegraphs? Wuuut?

 

Anyway these are all physical strikes, all they did was buy time, i.e. not very effective, so I fail to see the point. I suppose seeing Fisto fail will be entertaining, but ultimately he'll still die...

 

EDIT: That is, if Fisto even incoporates physical strikes into his attack. I don't think he does.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

Of course not, I think.

 

 

 

Anyway, Fisto can dodge then strike Savage. Savage has shown a major weakness in this area. He telegraphs, something that several of his opponents have taken advantage of. Obi-Wan (twice, once he even sucker punches him), Halsey (and Adi, though they were both ineffective), Ventress, and Plo Koon have all evaded and counter-attacked Savage before he can recover from his attacks. We can't disregard these examples.

 

Granted he's managed to win/survive these battles, but the fact remains that Fisto can effectively exploit this glaring weakness in Savage's fighting style.

 

I'm fairly sure you don't disagree with the main point, but I guess I'm just reinforcing the point. Someone has to do it, right?

 

I'd also like to note that while Savage is a physical beast, Fisto is not entirely lacking in physically. We have seen people of similar phasique's hold out against Savages onslaughts, such as Plo Koon. Fisto's unpredictability could very well through Savage off the same way the Emperor's use of speed and unpredictability did, while his Savage's predictable strikes coul very much create openings Fisto can take advantage of as others have inthe past.

[Beniboybling]

I'd also like to note that while Savage is a physical beast, Fisto is not entirely lacking in physically. We have seen people of similar phasique's hold out against Savages onslaughts, such as Plo Koon. Fisto's unpredictability could very well through Savage off the same way the Emperor's use of speed and unpredictability did, while his Savage's predictable strikes coul very much create openings Fisto can take advantage of as others have inthe past.

As a master of Djem So, we would expect that from Koon. I doubt Fisto's defenses will be as impressive, ultimately though its a case of attrition, rather than what is was with Vos. Yet he will still lose such a confrontation.

 

I agree unpredictability is Fisto's sole advantage, but it is in part negated by Savage's own exceptional reflexes/agility and the advantages provided by his saberstaff i.e. he can react quickly and easily. Given that any injuries he suffers will be minor, Savage will probably intercept the attacks but it some cases sloppily or not fast enough so that the blade slips and grazes him - but these sort of injuries which might hamper other duelists he will shrug off easily.

 

Noting that Sidious was just too fast, creating massive openings in Savage's defenses which led to fatal injury.

[Aurbere]

He telegraphs? Wuuut?

 

Anyway these are all physical strikes, all they did was buy time, i.e. not very effective, so I fail to see the point. I suppose seeing Fisto fail will be entertaining, but ultimately he'll still die...

 

EDIT: That is, if Fisto even incoporates physical strikes into his attack. I don't think he does.

 

Telegraphs, in that he makes some of his movements predictable. Not all the time, but you can see it there.

 

Also, Plo Koon's strike was with the blade, so it is possible.

[ShadowMudkip]

Kit Fisto was able to hold off Grievous by himself, that's a pretty big statement from a Jedi that specializes in a form meant for fighting multiple enemies.

 

One of the biggest things Fisto has going for him is his unpredictable fighting style. If Fisto can get the upper hand early on in the fight due to Savage having no experience against such an opponent, combined with Fisto's own fighting style, I am confident Fisto can win. While Fisto is at a disadvantage due to Shii-Cho being weak against one enemy, Savage's Saberstaff acts almost like multiple weapson attacking from different fronts. Shii-Cho is good against not only multiple enemies, but also against multiple weapons. If the saberstaff acts as two weapons, Fisto can easily counter Savage.

 

Honestly though, Fisto can't win every saberlock against Savage. One? Maybe. But not all of them.

[Beniboybling]

Telegraphs, in that he makes some of his movements predictable. Not all the time, but you can see it there.

 

Also, Plo Koon's strike was with the blade, so it is possible.

OK I see. Now this is true. But if Fisto only chooses to act when he can be sure Savage will only defend, he will find his ability to attack limited. A decent conservation tactic perhaps, but I'd only delaying the inevitable as Savage will not tire.

[Aurbere]

I'd also like to note that while Savage is a physical beast, Fisto is not entirely lacking in physically. We have seen people of similar phasique's hold out against Savages onslaughts, such as Plo Koon. Fisto's unpredictability could very well through Savage off the same way the Emperor's use of speed and unpredictability did, while his Savage's predictable strikes coul very much create openings Fisto can take advantage of as others have inthe past.

 

Plo Koon is a physical tank that shrugs off extreme pain like it's nothing. I don't know Fisto's limits, but I don't think improved cartilage is going to bring him up to that level.

 

Agreed on speed, though.

[Aurbere]

OK I see. Now this is true. But if Fisto only chooses to act when he can be sure Savage will only defend, he will find his ability to attack limited. A decent conservation tactic perhaps, but I'd only delaying the inevitable as Savage will not tire.

 

Hmm, true.

[tunewalker]

Plo Koon is a physical tank that shrugs off extreme pain like it's nothing. I don't know Fisto's limits, but I don't think improved cartilage is going to bring him up to that level.

 

Agreed on speed, though.

 

Ultimately agreed. I was just pointing out that Fisto is closer to Koon in tanking ability then he is to Ventress, or many of the others that Savage has purely overpowered. While he is powerful enough to overpower him EVENTUALLY I dont think the Fisto's very unpredictable attack style will allow the battle to last that long.

[Beniboybling]

Kit Fisto was able to hold off Grievous by himself, that's a pretty big statement from a Jedi that specializes in a form meant for fighting multiple enemies.

 

One of the biggest things Fisto has going for him is his unpredictable fighting style. If Fisto can get the upper hand early on in the fight due to Savage having no experience against such an opponent, combined with Fisto's own fighting style, I am confident Fisto can win. While Fisto is at a disadvantage due to Shii-Cho being weak against one enemy, Savage's Saberstaff acts almost like multiple weapson attacking from different fronts. Shii-Cho is good against not only multiple enemies, but also against multiple weapons. If the saberstaff acts as two weapons, Fisto can easily counter Savage.

 

Honestly though, Fisto can't win every saberlock against Savage. One? Maybe. But not all of them.

Grievous is not Savage however. Grievous was a duelist who frequently left both limbs exposed and was not so strong that Fisto could not power through his defenses. This is what gave Fisto the advantage. Not here I'm afraid.

 

Correction, the only thing. If Fisto begins to gain the upper hand Savage will resort to alternate tactics to turn the tides. For example a chained physical or Force based attack, both staggering Fisto and leaving him open to assault. Fisto will probably use evasion and then regain the offensive, but at some point he'll falter before he regains composure.

 

And I don't think Fisto can injure Savage severely enough to end the duel quickly.

 

I think I disagree concerning the Shii-Cho being effective against saberstaffs - purely based on Kas'im's assertion that the saberstaff merely provides the illusion of two blades, when they are in fact merely one.Though we'd have to work out exactly why Shii-Cho is effective against multiple opponents before making such assertions.

[ShadowMudkip]

Grievous is not Savage however. Grievous was a duelist who frequently left both limbs exposed and was not so strong that Fisto could not power through his defenses. This is what gave Fisto the advantage. Not here I'm afraid.

 

Correction, the only thing. If Fisto begins to gain the upper hand Savage will resort to alternate tactics to turn the tides. For example a chained physical or Force based attack, both staggering Fisto and leaving him open to assault. Fisto will probably use evasion and then regain the offensive, but at some point he'll falter before he regains composure.

 

And I don't think Fisto can injure Savage severely enough to end the duel quickly.

 

I think I disagree concerning the Shii-Cho being effective against saberstaffs - purely based on Kas'im's assertion that the saberstaff merely provides the illusion of two blades, when they are in fact merely one.Though we'd have to work out exactly why Shii-Cho is effective against multiple opponents before making such assertions.

 

I truthfully only remember Savage ever using force push in terms of force power, but I may be wrong.

 

Saberstaff users have to use wide arc like attacks to fight effectively, its one of the disadvantages of a saberstaff. I'm sure Fisto could spot an opportunity to take out Savage while dueling. Fisto was able to find weaknesses in Grievous' fighting style and cut off multiple limbs, almost killing Grievous had it not been for the magnaguards.

 

I'm pretty sure a lethal blow the the head or stab in the heart would end the dual, whether or not Fisto can make it that quickly is debatable.

[Aurbere]

I'm pretty sure a lethal blow the the head or stab in the heart would end the dual, whether or not Fisto can make it that quickly is debatable.

 

I sure hope a stab to the head kills him!

[Beniboybling]

I truthfully only remember Savage ever using force push in terms of force power, but I may be wrong.

 

Saberstaff users have to use wide arc like attacks to fight effectively, its one of the disadvantages of a saberstaff. I'm sure Fisto could spot an opportunity to take out Savage while dueling. Fisto was able to find weaknesses in Grievous' fighting style and cut off multiple limbs, almost killing Grievous had it not been for the magnaguards.

 

I'm pretty sure a lethal blow the the head or stab in the heart would end the dual, whether or not Fisto can make it that quickly is debatable.

Well in this instance Force push is exactly what he would use. All he needs to do is stagger him. However in bouts of rage he could also perform powerful Force repulses and chokes.

 

A rage he may enter if Fisto repeatedly wounds him. Heck he might just choke him out in the end.

 

Now this is true, but I feel that Fisto will be too busy dodging to exploit these attacks. Also remember these are wide arcs, not thrusts. Once the trajectory is complete both arms holding the blade will be positioned at the side of the body. Whereas in order to avoid the large radius of the blade Fisto will have to jump wide.

 

To see what I mean refer to this duel. Just look how far away Gallia moves to evade his blades, she is almost falling over herself just trying to get away from them. Now compare it to

Grievous sticks his arm right out in Fisto's face. On to of that the window of opportunity is wider considering Grievous has slower reflexes and would have to pull his arm back as opposed to simply move with the momentum as Savage does.

 

But slashes isn't all Savages uses. When he chops and blocks the blade is held vertically, and in such a position his arms are impervious from attack and his legs easily defended by a mere flick of the blade.

 

Simply put, dismemberment is unlikely.

 

And yeah in order decapitate him or impale him he'd have to catch Savage completely exposed either by simply moving too damn fast or battering his blades away. But Savage is stronger and at least as fast, so neither will happen.

[ShadowMudkip]

Well in this instance Force push is exactly what he would use. All he needs to do is stagger him. However in bouts of rage he could also perform powerful Force repulses and chokes.

 

A rage he may enter if Fisto repeatedly wounds him. Heck he might just choke him out in the end.

 

Now this is true, but I feel that Fisto will be too busy dodging to exploit these attacks. Also remember these are wide arcs, not thrusts. Once the trajectory is complete both arms holding the blade will be positioned at the side of the body. Whereas in order to avoid the large radius of the blade Fisto will have to jump wide.

 

To see what I mean refer to this duel. Just look how far away Gallia moves to evade his blades, she is almost falling over herself just trying to get away from them. Now compare it to

Grievous sticks his arm right out in Fisto's face. On to of that the window of opportunity is wider considering Grievous has slower reflexes and would have to pull his arm back as opposed to simply move with the momentum as Savage does.

 

But slashes isn't all Savages uses. When he chops and blocks the blade is held vertically, and in such a position his arms are impervious from attack and his legs easily defended by a mere flick of the blade.

 

Simply put, dismemberment is unlikely.

 

And yeah in order decapitate him or impale him he'd have to catch Savage completely exposed either by simply moving too damn fast or battering his blades away. But Savage is stronger and at least as fast, so neither will happen.

 

The problem with saber staffs, is that they are easier to destroy than other types of weapons. Malgus did it to Satele, and Obi Wan did it to Maul. If Fisto can dodge an attack then destroy the saber, Fisto can win.

[fellblade]

This is what I mean about the Fisto overrating - he is Not THAT fast to use the Sidious Speed advantage as a point in his Favour......Sidious has been proven to be WAY faster than Fisto (and had Fisto been the first one attacked by Sidious he would most likely have been killed in 1 second rather than 2 or 3) and I am sorry but his style cannot be THAT unpredictable if Ventress (who hasn't been Stated as a Master of any form - and is somewhat unrefined) could analyse it that quickly...

I would assert that Ventress is just as fast and MORE Unpredictable and Improvisational than Fisto.

 

The Grievous thing is Ridiculous - 4 Sabers being wielded by 1 person is Significantly different from fighting 4 Opponents - 4 people would have 4 different minds and can never be as coordinated as a single mind - part of fighting multiple opponents is the fact that they can easily get in each other's way and you can postion and move yourself to take advantage of this and make it so that at is hard for all of them to attack you at the same time.

Grievous is 1 body and can always bring all of his attacks to bear as he won't get in his own way - the positioning and movements used to fight multiple opponents (which I am sure has to be what is taught in Shii Cho) would be totally irrelevant against Greivous seeing as the attacks all stem from one source.... These attacks would also come from angles that would be impossible for 4 different individuals to Replicate (seeing as 4 different bodies cannot occupy the same space at the same time).

Ultimately Grievous is more like Fighting a Single opponent that will seem faster and relentless because of the Multiple arms all being able to deliver attacks at the same time.....Also - these fights have Never quite been fought to conclusion - What would happen if Fisto Chops 2 of Grievous' arms? (there is nothing I have seen that gives Shii Cho an advantage against Jar Kai - (Ventress) or Saberstaffs) or Grievous somehow gets to one Saber - would the tables be turned then???

 

The attacks that Ventress got in against Savage were hand to hand - Hand to hand attacks are probably a bit easier to land in these duels because people are Primarily focusing on defending against the Saber so given a choice they would rather block the Saber and take the hand to hand strike if necessary. Against Ventress - Savage was probably happy for her to fight hand to hand as her blows were inconsequential to him and probably not even worth defending against - this got her in close (most likely what he wanted) and he was able to just pick her up and slam her. If you don't have the physical Power to Overcome Savage's resilience you would need the hand to hand skills of someone like Maul to beat Savage in that situation (Fisto doesn't have either)

 

How many Lightsaber, Force-Wielding Opponents has Fisto Fought and what were the outcomes of these encounters? (and I am not talking about Sparring) - Even in his Short career I think Savage has fought more...(I may be wrong - so if anyone knows about Fisto's fights please tell me)