There is a Maker. Korriban is Saved!

[OldVengeance]

No, it would be two alternative universes, the latter universe making a whole lot more sense. This is the issue here, SWTOR will still exist an MMO which many Star Wars fans partake in, they'll also assume that because it exists it is canon (as it always has been) and therefore will not only be confused on the new storyline, but won't acknowledge it.

 

But you underestimate how widespread the influences of the Old Republic era are. References to the OR and specifically to the Ancient Sith and Korriban are found in every single other era in varying shapes and forms.

 

Darth Bane and the Rule of Two for example, originally created by Lucas, has already been linked closely with Revan and the Ancient Sith. Then we have Darth Plagueis, of which the novel makes a number of references to the OR era. Sidious himself at one point visits Korriban, Vader owns the Journal of Darth Malgus etc. etc.

 

Even in the Clone Wars the Jedi Padawans build their lightsabers on a vessel from the Old Republic era, bearing the symbol of the Republic of the Great Galactic War period, along with other references.The OR era at this point is so ingrained into the fabric of the EU that extracting it without causing a bloody mess is impossible.

 

And if they did try it I'd simply laugh, and ignore the new timeline completely.

 

P.S. But why are we even discussing this? Not only is the OR era one of the most, if not the most, respected non-Lucas era which has the most references and links to the Rise of the Empire and Rebellion eras, has already made appearances in TCW, is a pet favourite of Dave Filoni and the TOR MMO is endorsed by the Story Group.

 

Actually I'm well aware how pervasive Old Republic references are in the EU. But every part of the EU could just as easily be decanonized - it's all still EU. Or at best be rendered non-canon int he same way Tales of the Jedi is non-canon: the comic itself no longer fits with EU lore after all the retcons, but the basic events of the Great Hyperspace War and Great Sith War still happened. That's what would happen to Darth Bane.

[cs_zoltan]

'Nuf said, Great Hyperspace War relic in Palpatine's office.

[Beniboybling]

'Nuf said, Great Hyperspace War relic in Palpatine's office.

Lol, I was just about to bring that up.

 

Prequel Trilogy Special Edition anyone?

 

EDIT: Seriously though. The current Sith History is Lucas's vision and I doubt it will be tampered with.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Actually I'm well aware how pervasive Old Republic references are in the EU. But every part of the EU could just as easily be decanonized - it's all still EU. Or at best be rendered non-canon int he same way Tales of the Jedi is non-canon: the comic itself no longer fits with EU lore after all the retcons, but the basic events of the Great Hyperspace War and Great Sith War still happened. That's what would happen to Darth Bane.

Tales of the Jedi is canon. The frame which it fits into may have been retconned a bit (though I can't think of any explicit changes/contradictions) but that is not the definition of non-canon.

 

If it is decanonised it is no longer part of the EU, it is no longer part of continuity. If you decanonise the Great Hyperspace War then it didn't happen. That is what non-canon is, stuff that didn't happen.

 

After all what you are suggesting is a rewrite of Sith history, that means no Great Hyperspace War etc. Korriban can be retconned yes, as in tweaked a little, yet remain a part of the EU, but it and the OR era cannot be feasibly erased.

[OldVengeance]

The Jedi Order is completely different in Tales of the Jedi than it is in the Prequels. This was explained by the Order adopting stricter rules about attachments and so forth after the Ruusan Reformation but when Kotor depicted the Jedi as having always been like the movies, then that explanation went out the window. So now there's large elements of the comic that don't make sense with the rest of the EU.

 

And yes, I know what I'm suggesting would rewrite the entire EU and erase the Great Hyperspace War and Exar Kun and all of Kotor and TOR. I don't think the powers that be would have any problem with that.

Edited February 27, 2014 by OldVengeance

[LadyKulvax]

The Jedi Order is completely different in Tales of the Jedi than it is in the Prequels. This was explained by the Order adopting stricter rules about attachments and so forth after the Ruusan Reformation but when Kotor depicted the Jedi as having always been like the movies, then that explanation went out the window.

 

And yes, I know what I'm suggesting would rewrite the entire EU and erase the Great Hyperspace War and Exar Kun and all of Kotor and TOR. I don't think the powers that be would have any problem with that.

 

Except the people that have their games license for the next decade: EA and by extension BiOWare.

 

They are not going to retcon BiOWare's parts of the EU because that would seriously damage relations, I imagine such things will remain safeguarded.

 

However, your belief that KotOR retconned the idea that the Jedi changed is false, many many times do we hear that the Jedi Order established the no attachments rules in the four decades between the Great Sith War and the Mandalorian Wars, hence the major Jedi families basically ceasing to exist past Vima Sunrider.

[OldVengeance]

Many times such as where? The Mandalorian Wars didn't exist in continuity until Kotor. Edited February 27, 2014 by OldVengeance

[Beniboybling]

The Jedi Order is completely different in Tales of the Jedi than it is in the Prequels. This was explained by the Order adopting stricter rules about attachments and so forth after the Ruusan Reformation but when Kotor depicted the Jedi as having always been like the movies, then that explanation went out the window. So now there's large elements of the comic that don't make sense with the rest of the EU.

 

And yes, I know what I'm suggesting would rewrite the entire EU and erase the Great Hyperspace War and Exar Kun and all of Kotor and TOR. I don't think the powers that be would have any problem with that.

First of all may I make it clear that that is not cause for calling non-canon. Inconsistencies does not mean the material is non-canon. Only Lucasfilm have the right to declare that, so be careful when you throw around the phrase.

 

Secondly, its been established (I don't know the source) that after the Great Sith War the Jedi became more strict in their rules, especially concerning the age Jedi were adopted for training, thanks to Exar Kun's fall, and subsequently Revan's. Furthermore marriage and attachments according to Revan are actually permitted to an extent.

 

Anyway, that is called a retcon. Even if that inconsistency hadn't been cleared up its not cause for calling it non-canon. Non-canon means non existent. It means that those events never happened.

 

Which brings us back to my point, you can't erase the OR era without causing a ton of inconsistencies across the board (which you claim to be aware of apparently) and in the movies themselves, and the Clone Wars for that matter. Then you brought up this hoo hah and non-canon not meaning non-existent here, which you are now contradicting:

 

Actually I'm well aware how pervasive Old Republic references are in the EU. But every part of the EU could just as easily be decanonized - it's all still EU. Or at best be rendered non-canon in the same way Tales of the Jedi is non-canon: the comic itself no longer fits with EU lore after all the retcons, but the basic events of the Great Hyperspace War and Great Sith War still happened. That's what would happen to Darth Bane.

 

Non-canon means it doesn't exist at all anywhere. Period. its not still all EU, the Old Sith Wars didn't happen. Bane is gone, Plagueis is gone, oh dear bye bye Sidious as well and he better take that mural down on his way out.

 

Now we back track to where you said "the EU is not even slighlty respected" to which I've been responding.

 

SWTOR has been endorsed by the story group whose job it is to solve inconsistencies they are supposedly creating, Dave Filoni highly respects the OR era and is a KOTOR fan, the OR is fully endorsed by Lucas, OR products are numerous and profitable for Disney including this MMO, there are explicit references to the OR era in the movies and the Clone Wars and finally its not even a necessary move. And non-canon, for that last time, means

 

We are going round in circles here. Either accept your wrong or at least stop being inconsistent.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Many times such as where? The Mandalorian Wars didn't exist in continuity until Kotor.

Well funnily enough it was KOTOR who made the retcons.

 

EDIT: Taken from Atris' Wookieepedia page and sourced from the KOTOR Campaign Guide:

 

After the end of the Great Sith War that was started by the Sith Lords Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma, the Jedi historian Atris attempted to revise the broken system of Jedi apprenticeship. She argued that there was little wonder why Kun and Qel-Droma fell to the dark side of the Force, when the Jedi had liberal instruction practices in place, such as dozens of Padawans training under a single Master, the radical bonds of reciprocal apprenticeship, and Jedi beginning their training in their teens and later. She invoked thousand-year old recommendations first suggested by the Jedi Master Simikarty, lobbying for the restriction of Padawans that a Master could have at one time, and also limiting the age of Jedi candidates.

 

Atris also advocated prohibiting romantic involvement for Jedi, citing that the First Great Schism had been started by two lovers. She even endorsed adoption of a more austere interpretation of the Jedi Code which was favored by the Draethos Jedi Master Odan-Urr, in memory of his death at the hands of Exar Kun at the Jedi Academy on Ossus. Her arguments found powerful purchase amongst the Jedi, and she was appointed to High Council.

 

This is known as a retcon.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Beniboybling

[OldVengeance]

I did clarify my position on Tales of the Jedi by saying what I meant by "non-canon" in this particular case. I know it was not erased, but the retcons mean it couldn't have happened quite the same way it did in the comics. It's not just those rules about the Jedi, it's the visual style of the world as well. Plus I thought I remembered Jolee talking about Nomi Sunrider as if she were an exception to the rule rather than the norm.

 

If Korriban were retconed out of existence, then the Old Sith Wars would be gone. Darth Bane and Darth Plagueis are from the movies' lore so they stay, but the stories about them would be gone or at least different. And that mural on Sidious' wall becomes about something else.

 

Inconsistencies are sometimes solved but not always. The Clone Wars simply invalidated all the lore it contradicted about the Mandalorians for example. Certain details about Darth Bane's story in the novels simply replaced anything they contradicted in previous versions of them.

 

Well funnily enough it was KOTOR who made the retcons.

 

I... thought that was what I said?

Edited February 27, 2014 by OldVengeance

[Beniboybling]

I did clarify my position on Tales of the Jedi by saying what I meant by "non-canon" in this particular case. I know it was not erased, but the retcons mean it couldn't have happened quite the same way it did in the comics. It's not just those rules about the Jedi, it's the visual style of the world as well.

 

If Korriban were retconed out of existence, then the Old Sith Wars would be gone. Darth Bane and Darth Plagious are from the movies' lore so they stay, but the stories about them would be gone or at least different. And that mural on Sidious' wall becomes about something else.

Its not a question of what you meant, its you using the term incorrectly, but moving on. If the Old Sith Wars are gone then a pile of inconsistencies are created in Bane, Plagueis and many many other works - explicit references to Revan and Malak for example. It would be a poor move for the Story Group whose job it is to make canon more cohesive. On top of that all evidence suggests a move towards integrating the OR era into future continuity as opposed to erasing it.

 

P.S. The Tales of the Jedi still happened in the exact same way. These retcons did not render anything non-canon.

[OldVengeance]

My point was that those books don't need to be canon either. And in those cases, the titular characters would still exist regardless. Edited February 27, 2014 by OldVengeance

[Aurbere]

Let's just wait to see what happens with this 'Moriband'.

[Beniboybling]

Let's just wait to see what happens with this 'Moriband'.

Indeed, it is probably best to wait for the episode to be released before we start proclaiming the EU to be dead.

[Beniboybling]

My point was that those books don't need to be canon either. And in those cases, the titular characters would still exist regardless.

Your 'point' is one supported by a lack of credible evidence, and stacked up against evidence to the contrary.

[OldVengeance]

Your evidence seems about as strong as mine. Basically it amounts to there being there being people who's job it is to resolve contradictions vs there are examples when they just ditch old lore.

 

For the record though, I'd be happy if I were wrong about this.

[Beniboybling]

Your evidence seems about as strong as mine. Basically it amounts to there being there being people who's job it is to resolve contradictions vs there are examples when they just ditch old lore.

 

For the record though, I'd be happy if I were wrong about this.

Yah, no.

[OldVengeance]

You saying that means nothing.

 

I've already mentioned examples. You've just said "I think it would contradict their purpose"

Edited February 27, 2014 by OldVengeance

[Beniboybling]

You saying that means nothing.

 

I've already mentioned examples. You've just said "I think it would contradict their purpose"

Its all summarised here:

 

SWTOR has been endorsed by the story group whose job it is to solve inconsistencies they are supposedly creating, Dave Filoni highly respects the OR era and is a KOTOR fan, the OR is fully endorsed by Lucas, OR products are numerous and profitable for Disney including this MMO, there are explicit references to the OR era in the movies and the Clone Wars and finally its not even a necessary move. And non-canon, for that last time, means

 

EDIT: I'd add to that list that a far more elegant solution, such as introducing a second name, would bypass all issues.

 

I don't think you've managed to dispute any of those points, and I've demonstrated your examples to be flawed. If you actually want to address these points and address the flaws in your examples you are more than welcome.

 

But if all you've taken from this discussion is seven words, then I doubt we'll get any further.

 

I mean the Straw man tactic is pretty cheap.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Beniboybling

[OldVengeance]

Yeah but endorsing EU products is all well and good when they don't contradict the "main" canon of the Clone Wars TV show or the movies, but some of them have been completely invalidated by the show. Like some of the Clone Wars books, or particularly stuff that covered the lore about Mandalorians. And the significance of all the old EU books and comics and games that reference Old Republic are nothing compared of the TV show in the overall canon.

 

EDIT: A second name might work in some cases I guess, but there's also things like geography to take into account. If it turns out to be near the center of the galaxy for example, it can't be on the outer rim where Jedi exiles and hyperspace explorers find it.

Edited February 27, 2014 by OldVengeance

[Beniboybling]

Yeah but endorsing EU products is all well and good when they don't contradict the "main" canon of the Clone Wars TV show or the movies, but some of them have been completely invalidated by the show. Like some of the Clone Wars books, or particularly stuff that covered the lore about Mandalorians.

Simply because the series has overridden material in the past does not mean they will do so know. Especially considering that all the above arguments were not true in these cases.

 

Because endorsement from the Story Group, and from the team behind Clone Wars itself (their is an explicit references to SWTOR in Clone Wars) is a strong indicator that they have no intention of rendering the TOR era non-canon in the future. If they did I see no reason why they would endorse and adopt material that was going to be in the future thrown away. And no it its not possible to remove Korriban and the original Sith history without removing the whole thing.

 

This of course not taking in account what Lady highlighted, that EA/BioWare have a legally binding contract and monetary interests in keeping this game going and canon long into the future. It just keeps stacking up.

 

Of course, this addressed but one of the seven reasons listed above.

[OldVengeance]

It's not like Korriban is a Bioware creation though. Bioware just used materials that Lucasarts created and owns.

 

And In terms of endorsing TOR, creating a new homeworld for the Sith seems to me to weigh more heavily against respecting it's canon, than adding in little references do in favor of it. Buteven if I'm wrong about that, they could have just changed their minds or perhaps adding a planet named Morraband was something that came from above them and hence it was taken out of their hands. My understanding was the George Lucas himself wrote bits and pieces of the show.

Edited February 27, 2014 by OldVengeance

[Beniboybling]

It's not like Korriban is a Bioware creation though. Bioware just used materials that Lucasarts created and owns.

 

And In terms of endorsing TOR, creating a new homeworld for the Sith seems to me to weigh more heavily against respecting it's canon, than adding in little references do in favor of it. Buteven if I'm wrong about that, they could have just changed their minds or perhaps adding a planet named Morraband was something that came from above them and hence it was taken out of their hands. My understanding was the George Lucas himself wrote bits and pieces of the show.

That's not the issue here, the issue is that rewriting the OR era would invalidate SWTOR as canon, and cause all kinds of implications that I can't even begin to fathom. They literally have to terminate it on the spot.

 

That is an assumption on your part however, considering that it could be the same planet just under a different name, or it could just be one of many worlds called the Sith Homeworld. A minor change to lore manageable. Nor does this provide a reason for why the Story Group would actively involve themselves in SWTOR material.

 

But again, one of many many other problems. I'd throw in the fact that there have in so far been no rumors at all concerning biggest change to the EU to ever happen in galactic history, and instead has been to the contrary.

[OldVengeance]

If they were replacing Korriban with Morraband, would there be rumors beyond the ones there already are? I imagine whoever would have made such a call did so not because they were specifically trying to eliminate the EU, but because they were just writing whatever they wanted to write.

[Beniboybling]

If they were replacing Korriban with Morraband, would there be rumors beyond the ones there already are? I imagine whoever would have made such a call did so not because they were specifically trying to eliminate the EU, but because they were just writing whatever they wanted to write.

If they were planning on rewriting the EU, discontinuing several novels etc. I'd expect some word by now.

 

But that is besides the point.