Kaggath Tournament: The Dark Imperium vs the Alliance of Worlds

[tunewalker]

*Facedesk*

 

*Facedesk* *Facepalm* *Facedesk Number 3*

 

Please tell me you're joking... Rayla's put it plainly multiple times.

 

The Infinite empire was THE MOST TECHNOLOGICALLY ADVANCED CIVILIZATION EVER.

 

Entire PLANETS were invaded at the rumour of Rakata Technology. The guns have been Canonically stated to be Vastly upgraded and Superior to the ALREADY ADVANCED Harrower class Dreadnoughts.

 

It really couldn't be much simpler.

 

The Sith Empire isnt the Rakatta empire. They are using tech they RE'd that they dont understand and still would not understand for 3000 years. The upgraded Harrowers do NOT equal a Rakatta ship. Their upgrades are of the same kind as my own and are truly IMPOSSIBLE to quantify one as better then the other, also if they were as advanced as is being stated 1 Harrower should have been able to wipe out the entire Republic fleet single handedly but it didnt. They fought better then the Republic fleet but not so much OMG better that had a technique employed to build the Nebula's had it been used by the republic could not have brought it to be equal standing.

 

Fact of the matter is we dont know, and as such shouldnt speculate one way or another about it. Advanced is Advanced.

Edited February 19, 2014 by tunewalker

[Selenial]

He also hacked into the Executor.

 

Last I checked, neither of those were Planets designed to be Unhackable, or Sentient beings...

 

Yes, Raxus Prime was meant to be unhackable, the Core was supposed to ever prevent the Shipyard falling into enemy hands.

[Selenial]

The Sith Empire isnt the Rakatta empire. They are using tech they RE'd that they dont understand and still would not understand for 3000 years. The upgraded Harrowers do NOT equal a Rakatta ship. Their upgrades are of the same kind as my own and are truly IMPOSSIBLE to quantify one as better then the other, also if they were as advanced as is being stated 1 Harrower should have been able to wipe out the entire Republic fleet single handedly but it didnt. They fought better then the Republic fleet but not so much OMG better that had a technique employed to build the Nebula's had it been used by the republic could not have brought it to be equal standing.

 

Fact of the matter is we dont know, and as such shouldnt speculate one way or another about it. Advanced is Advanced.

 

 

What do you mean they Don't understand it?

Of course they understood it, They had the Foundry, They knew of Rakata Technology, they studied the archives and learnt how it worked.

Long have the days been over that Rakatan Technology relied on Force Usage, these were guns.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Last I checked, neither of those were Planets designed to be Unhackable, or Sentient beings...

 

Yes, Raxus Prime was meant to be unhackable, the Core was supposed to ever prevent the Shipyard falling into enemy hands.

 

Not the point, point is showing IG-88 has immense hacking ability. If nothing else they could just destroy the Core seeing as it was destroyed and still use the facilities.

 

In fact considering that IG-88 and the Core share the same ideology(destroying organic life) who's to say they wouldn't work together?

Edited February 19, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

*facedesk*

 

You haven't even heard half the points Me/Rayla/Aurbere have up our sleeves Tune, there's going to be stuff in there that's going to render almost all of the above.... Impossible at best.

 

I have read all of your stuff thus far, everything thus far hinges on space superiority, which hinges on many of the things i covered in the tactical portion. Including the utter uselessness of the stealth thanks to non-stealthed ships getting hacked giving me the information on your stealthed fleet and its operations along with the stealthed ground forces attack plans allowing me to intercept all stealthed attempts and wipe them all out in a single battle.

 

None of your points has made this moot. Even if Traya tries to get aboard one of my ships and does as you suggest the attack on your planets will still happen. IG-88 will still hack the Comp systems be it at a facility or on a ship and before your trap can be fully sprung the info will be in Rebel hands and they will able to respond stopping the stealthed units in their tracks and being alerted to Traya being their thus employing scanners that see past stealth and with enough people there once I go into it fully she cant mind trick that many, again will full out that point later though.

 

So far everything i have heard rely's solely on Malgus's fleets ability to stealth and catch me off gaurd, or your units ability to stealth and catch me off gaurd. I have already countered those points with 1 of my own.... the same 1 in fact. If you want I can counter all of those with a few more if you wish, but it will take time something I truly dont have much of.

[tunewalker]

 

What do you mean they Don't understand it?

Of course they understood it, They had the Foundry, They knew of Rakata Technology, they studied the archives and learnt how it worked.

Long have the days been over that Rakatan Technology relied on Force Usage, these were guns.

 

If they understood it then the tech all over the galaxy would have been massively better then Rakatta tech 3000 years later and yet its some how claimed that the Rakatta had tech on par with the GE. ONE OF THESE THINGS IS NOT LIKE THE OTHER ONE OF THESE THINGS JUST DOESNT BELONG.

[Selenial]

If they understood it then the tech all over the galaxy would have been massively better then Rakatta tech 3000 years later and yet its some how claimed that the Rakatta had tech on par with the GE. ONE OF THESE THINGS IS NOT LIKE THE OTHER ONE OF THESE THINGS JUST DOESNT BELONG.

 

Foundry simply could have been destroyed. Easy explanation, seeing as we dont ever see it again.

[tunewalker]

Foundry simply could have been destroyed. Easy explanation, seeing as we dont ever see it again.

 

If they understood it, the destruction or exsistance of the foundry would not be required to build it. As they would have the understanding to pass them schematics along.

[StarSquirrel]

Yes, Raxus Prime was meant to be unhackable, the Core was supposed to ever prevent the Shipyard falling into enemy hands.

 

I'm sure the Death Star was as well... Heck I bet they specifically designed high-grade military computer systems to be "unhackable" yet IG-88 did it quite easily. Add to that, HK-47 has a computer-based semi-sentience as does G0-T0, HK,50's, PROXY, and pretty much every sentient droid out there. Doesn't make them immune to having their code overwritten, look it is up to Beni to decide, but from sheer volume and complexity of the things he's had to hack, IG-88 blows everyone out of the water so it isn't unrealistic to think he could do it again.

 

Oh, and Tune is correct in my opinion about the RE'd Rakata tech. It was advanced no doubt, but no more than how advanced Tune's fleet is relative to it's counterparts. I don't recall seeing the Stealth Fleet dominate a numerically superior force much less defeat the Republic (both things that would say to me you're right), you'd think the Empire wouldn't desperately need Isotope-5 in order to win if their stealth fleet was that good, heck you'd think Malgus's Empire would have done better if that were the case.

Edited February 19, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Selenial]

Oh, and Tune is correct in my opinion about the RE'd Rakata tech. It was advanced no doubt, but no more than how advanced Tune's fleet is relative to it's counterparts. I don't recall seeing the Stealth Fleet dominate a numerically superior force much less defeat the Republic (both things that would say to me you're right), you'd think the Empire wouldn't desperately need Isotope-5 in order to win if their stealth fleet was that good, heck you'd think Malgus's Empire would have done better if that were the case.

 

I'll respond to the hacking thing later... But I'm assuming you didn't read our discussion on this, So I'll just highlight it...

 

Malgus' Stealth Fleet numbered 12 at that battle, because contrary to popular belief, he was Fighting a War, not one battle. That fleet stood it's ground against the combined Fleets of the Republic, AND Empire.... Outnumbered to the extreme, and were Winning. Quite comfortably too.

 

Only way they lost was because Malgus' Flux Canons were turned against the fleet.

 

And don't think the Flux helped Malgus' fleet, his fleet was in the way of the Canons so there wasn't a clear shot.

 

TL;DR: Malgus' Stealth Fleet was obliterating a numerically superior force.

[Selenial]

If they understood it, the destruction or exsistance of the foundry would not be required to build it. As they would have the understanding to pass them schematics along.

 

No, because the Empire didn't understand it, Malgus did. And Malgus' Technicians did. All of whom, Died.

[tunewalker]

I'll respond to the hacking thing later... But I'm assuming you didn't read our discussion on this, So I'll just highlight it...

 

Malgus' Stealth Fleet numbered 12 at that battle, because contrary to popular belief, he was Fighting a War, not one battle. That fleet stood it's ground against the combined Fleets of the Republic, AND Empire.... Outnumbered to the extreme, and were Winning. Quite comfortably too.

 

Only way they lost was because Malgus' Flux Canons were turned against the fleet.

 

And don't think the Flux helped Malgus' fleet, his fleet was in the way of the Canons so there wasn't a clear shot.

 

TL;DR: Malgus' Stealth Fleet was obliterating a numerically superior force.

 

 

The empire and Republic were not all present this was in the outer more reaches of the galaxy and they responded hastily to this. This was not the bulk of either the Republic or the Empire. The Flux cannon was helping and I dont know about you but..... source of this information. i dont recall the game specifiing numbers on either side. I will log in right now and double check.

[Selenial]

The empire and Republic were not all present this was in the outer more reaches of the galaxy and they responded hastily to this. This was not the bulk of either the Republic or the Empire. The Flux cannon was helping and I dont know about you but..... source of this information. i dont recall the game specifiing numbers on either side. I will log in right now and double check.

 

It's both.

 

Both Fleets.

 

Do it as an Imperial, and Look out the window.

[tunewalker]

No, because the Empire didn't understand it, Malgus did. And Malgus' Technicians did. All of whom, Died.

 

If it was that EASY to understand then some one would have been able to RE it based on the wreckage or the GE just would have surpassed in 3000 years. this didnt happen. The Harrowers were an imperial design that they fed the foundry and the foundry made it with weapons armor and shields of the Rakatta. This wasnt a Rakatta ship it was an imp ship built by a rakatta factory, thus it could only be as advanced as the schematics allowed it to be.

 

The tech gave them better fire power shields and armor.... the same thing my fleets tech is known for being stronger in, but both were accomplished ina different way. Malgus's stealth fleet accomplished this by feeding the schematics into an advanced foundry, mine accomplished it with many pain staking months of the most complex metal densifiying techniques and computer target programming and shield power management the galaxy had known at the time.

 

Judging one "advanced for time" against another "advanced for time" is a waste of time.

[tunewalker]

It's both.

 

Both Fleets.

 

Do it as an Imperial, and Look out the window.

 

Both fleets WERE NOT their in FULL force. They were hastily brought together, and I still see no evidence that Malgus's whole fleet wasnt there. I see MAYBE 2:1 odds winning with the help of a flux cannon but the flux cannon changing the outcome when it was turned meaning if it was 2:1 odds normally its unsure how it would go, if not go even. My own advanced ships can fight 2:1 as well.

 

 

 

Edit: you know what the point of this is being missed entirely, none of this matters. At the end of the day both were advanced for their time and also at the end of the day its truly impossible to judge 1 as more advanced then the other. The fact that we are still argueing it and that I have at least 1 person agreeing with me proves this point. If it was so easy to see then we wouldnt be argueing it.

Edited February 19, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Mandator = Advanced for time, also, Universal Tech Rule. They served the same role, they should be the same strength.... Just no Troll Shields

I'd just like to point out no I afraid. While both being over 5,000 metres would have then classed as Dreadnaughts. The Mandator is no were near the size of a Viscount and the era's are not even that far apart.

 

The Viscount was meant to be the New Republic's SSD.

 

It does not compare I'm afraid. I expect it would be able to hold its own, but ultimately it would be overwhelmed. Your other vessels which are the equivalent of Star Destroyers on the other hand would be dwarfed in comparison.

[Beniboybling]

Concerning the casualties at the Battle of Ilum business I was referring to the aftermath meetings:

 

 

 

Do those sound like reports coming from fleets that have just escape from total decimation? I see no mention of severe losses, it is therefore logical to assume their were no severe losses. Instead they merely talk of casualties as if they were not major and the Republic fleet merely needs repairs. If either the Republic or the Empire were really being completely hammered by the Malgus' fleet and only rescued by the actions of the strike teams, the causalities would have been severe. Also if you pay attention to Hesker's dialogue during the battle itself, the situation hardly seems dire.

 

On top of that I recall no mention, and can find no evidence, that suggests Malgus was outnumbered. The fact that only one fleet it seems was dispatched, and the rest of fleet was tied up elsewhere, doesn't support this either.

 

EDIT: On top of that, the Flux Cannons could fire on the enemy ships, Kothe destroys a ship

 

P.S. I love how you guys don't know how to use youtube. "Imma gonna play through the whole game again just to get this one scene!" Sillies.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

During the slow march to the Academy, multiple things happen.

They get ambushed by SithSpawn, losing a few troops.

A spec ops captain goes mad with paranoia and fear, tries to kill luke but is killed in the process. A few others take their own life, or go Insane and have to be left behind. Only the strongest survive.

I'm just picking up on points here but we overestimate the effects of Malachor V. It is a slow and gradual process, there have been no instances at all where an individual has landed on Malachor V and immediately gone insane.

 

Take the entire crew of the Ebon Hawk for example, Force Sensitive yes, but hardly well trained. And then of course we have Hanharr, who is not Force Sensitive at all - and you don't even have to make all your characters Jedi anyway.

 

After prolonged exposure i.e. days, weeks, months. Its possible. But don't expect everyone to go back crazy once they arrive on the planet, they're ability to fight will decrease and altogether they'll weaken, but they won't go insane.

 

EDIT: Noting that everyone on Kaas is just fine, and Colonel Tobin did not go crazy. I'd question whether it could turn you insane at all, just drain you and if your Force Sensitive force you to embrace the dark side, and throw up.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

One more thing, I'd just like to point out that for the purpose of the Kaggath the Core does not exist as it would constitute a outside party and is in many cases a faction in itself. This is to prevent alliances being made with the Core, or the Core taking over the droids on Raxus Prime and staging some kind of Droid Revolution.

 

So lets just assume that at this point its already been slagged.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Ok, So as Tune said, his fleets would split 50/50, with Half most likely amassing at Hapes.

 

Now, why is that important? hmm?

 

Well, one reason.

 

Harrowers, are Wedge Shaped. They can fit right underneath Tunewalkers ships and fire, from stealth, making it look as if Tune's own forces are firing on anything.

 

This is an issue if Tune amasses part of his fleet at Hapes, as he would, because it's the easiest planet to defend. If Traya was to sneak aboard any ship with a commander on it, (Prefferably Wedge) she could influence his actions.

 

Now, what if she was to influence him to say, open up Communications with the hapans. Make him Demand their entire fleet, all their forces to the war effort under his command? What if when they refuse, she makes him threaten them, and then Orders the entire fleet to fire (Or, If the rebels wouldn't do it, Use a stealthed harrier to LOOK like it's the rebels firing) on the Hapan Fleet.

 

Of course, the Hapans would fight back.

 

And when the Majestic fleet of the Dark Imperium, Full Stealth Armada opens fire and decimates with it's Rakatan Weaponry, who do the Hapans turn to to thank?

 

Who do the Hapans turn to to support?

 

Traya has manipulated events on a Galactic scale to the same levels of Plageuis and Sidious, she wiped out two entire Force Orders and an Empire...

 

She could seperate those two.

OK I actually understand what you mean now. But there are some glaring issues I'm afraid.

 

 

1. Stealthed ships have to decloak before firing, its a matter of demanding too much energy. You'll notice that during the Battle of Ilum the Harrowers are not cloaked and Malgus only refers to the stealthed fighters - because stealthed fighters and decloak, open fire, then fall back and recloak and avoid being pursued.
    
    
   
2. Traya will only be able to take control of one commander, and try and use that commander to fire on the Hapan Fleet. His actions will be disregarded as a bout of madness, he'll be stripped of his position and diplomacy will resume. If some commander randomly starts demanding ships and open fires on the Hapan's when he doesn't get them - he'll be immediately be categorised as bat crazy. I mean what the kark.
   

 

Basically I doubt it would work.

[Beniboybling]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Harro...ss_Dreadnaught Are very powerful and advanced warships having Rakatta tech helping it out..... how is unsure its possible the only rakatta tech is the stealthing equipment or it could be the shields its unknown in what way's the Rakatta tech improves this. As such I feel my own http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nebula-class can stand toe to toe with these, they had advanced targeting systems as well as being one of the most advanced Stardestroyer designs for decades. Its armor was so thick that only 2 could be made a year at best because of the heavily labor intensity of multi-folding the steal and had enough firepower and armor to take on Mini-Superstar destroyers. I likely have half the number of Nebula's as my opponent does Harrowers though this is countered by my http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Visco..._Star_Defender which could likely take the remaining harrowers.

It can only take on one-enemy Star Destroyer according to that Wookiee-page. An augmented Harrower is worth at least two or more. Possibly three. You need at least a pair of these vessels to stand a chance.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Venat...Star_Destroyer While a strong fighter carrier, to hold that many fighters it has to give up fire power and generator strength including shield generator strength as such http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Repub...Star_Destroyer could likely take these ships 2:1 (not including their fighters I will get to that) and I likely have equal if not more of these then my opponent has Venator's. These things have slightly less fire power then the Nebula's but are not as tough as them given this I believe 2 could take on a Harrower and win should the need arise.

I'd disagree, according to Wookiee the Rep Star Destroyer was outmatched by an Imperial-II class Star Destroyer of which a standard Harrower is the equivalent, and an augmented is at least twice as superior - if not more.

 

So two Rep-Star Destroyers would still be outmatched, a single Star Destroyer would stand little chance.

 

Its probably superior to a Venator though - but only by a tad.

In addition to these capital ships I also have a few http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/MC90_Star_Cruiser of which the armor was so thick a Nuclear detination could go off in the hangar and the ship would still remain in fighting shape thus I believe this could also take on a Harrower 1v1. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galac...battle_carrier which was potentially wider then the Strident-class Star Defender with a similar armament of a IMP star destroyer thus likely able to take on at least 1 terminus-class or half a harrower while holding a number of fighters to Rival the Venator. remember it only lists fighters for 1 bay, but housed several bays all filled with fighters.

This vessel is capable only of matching the firepower of an Imperial-SD. I'd say it would fail in a fight against a superior Rakata enhanced Harrower.

 

I think however the point about defenses is a good one though, in regards to all your vessels they benefit from strong hulls and few weak spots like windows/hangars etc. If you look at the Clone Wars as soon as a Separatist vessel loses its shields its game over, a fighter just flies in and blows out the exposed bridge.

 

But that can't happen here, which limits the effectiveness of fighters.

Along with around 80 Frigates and smaller ships.

This is the issue here. I expect you have the capability of destroying the enemy fleets head on without taking too much casualties. But the problem is a single Harrower can probably mop up 5 to 6 frigates without taking much damage.

 

Now in a normal instance, the Harrowers and such would meet you head on, they'd try to plow through your capital ships, taking causalities on both sides, probably more so for you, but ultimately they'd be overwhelmed by frigate fire.

 

But if they stealth from behind, tearing apart your frigates before they can react, they've got the edge. They can rout your frigates while the OFC keep your capital ships occupied. I'd say your capital ships would beat the OCF but not before your frigates are destroyed. Then you have to content with the remainder of MSF which could beat you.

 

Something to consider.

 

P.S Having Leia out in the open among your fleets, terrible terrible idea. Forget trying to manipulate some commanders head, just stick Leia with her lightsaber for gosh darns sake. If Leia is smart she stay safely secluded on the Capital World. Not leading fleets with no battlefield experience while stealthed assassins and stealthed ships capable of suicide rams are lurking about. Major LOLS.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

EDIT: Nvm. Edited February 19, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Wolfninjajedi]

Since when is a augmented Harrower = Star Destroyer? How do we know that?

 

This whole augmented thing is rather vague to me....was it decided that there were specific augmentations done or?

Edited February 19, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

It can only take on one-enemy Star Destroyer according to that Wookiee-page. An augmented Harrower is worth at least two or more. Possibly three. You need at least a pair of these vessels to stand a chance.I'd disagree, according to Wookiee the Rep Star Destroyer was outmatched by an Imperial-II class Star Destroyer of which a standard Harrower is the equivalent, and an augmented is at least twice as superior - if not more.

 

So two Rep-Star Destroyers would still be outmatched, a single Star Destroyer would stand little chance.

 

Its probably superior to a Venator though - but only by a tad.This vessel is capable only of matching the firepower of an Imperial-SD. I'd say it would fail in a fight against a superior Rakata enhanced Harrower.

 

I think however the point about defenses is a good one though, in regards to all your vessels they benefit from strong hulls and few weak spots like windows/hangars etc. If you look at the Clone Wars as soon as a Separatist vessel loses its shields its game over, a fighter just flies in and blows out the exposed bridge.

 

But that can't happen here, which limits the effectiveness of fighters.This is the issue here. I expect you have the capability of destroying the enemy fleets head on without taking too much casualties. But the problem is a single Harrower can probably mop up 5 to 6 frigates without taking much damage.

 

Now in a normal instance, the Harrowers and such would meet you head on, they'd try to plow through your capital ships, taking causalities on both sides, probably more so for you, but ultimately they'd be overwhelmed by frigate fire.

 

But if they stealth from behind, tearing apart your frigates before they can react, they've got the edge. They can rout your frigates while the OFC keep your capital ships occupied. I'd say your capital ships would beat the OCF but not before your frigates are destroyed. Then you have to content with the remainder of MSF which could beat you.

 

Something to consider.

 

P.S Having Leia out in the open among your fleets, terrible terrible idea. Forget trying to manipulate some commanders head, just stick Leia with her lightsaber for gosh darns sake. If Leia is smart she stay safely secluded on the Capital World. Not leading fleets with no battlefield experience while stealthed assassins and stealthed ships capable of suicide rams are lurking about. Major LOLS.

 

 

For the Nebula "It was designed to be able to defeat any one enemy Star Destroyer" "It mounted defenses strong enough to resist even some of the smaller Super Star Destroyers or analog warships.[2]" The Flux cannon was capable of destroying an enemy capital ship in one shot, it was effectively the Death Star II at the battle of Endor so of course who ever owns it wins. I doubt the Harrowers could actually beat 2 similarly sized ships 2v1. I feel it much more likely at around 1.5v1 which as you can see here is exactly the credit I gave it.

 

The republic Star destroyer had "Because the smaller ship retained a similar level of weaponry, it had to sacrifice cargo space and endurance. The Republic-class only held enough consumables to operate without resupply for 2 years, one-third the running time of the Imperial-class.[1]" which is effectively what my analysis said. They have near equivlant fire power to the Nebula's but cant take hits as well. The fire power I believe would allow 2 to bring down a Harrower, as 1 was still strong enough to stand toe to toe with the imp ships (1.5 needed to take down an imp II). If you compare weaponry the venator is well outclassed (not including compliment) because of how much it sacrificed in terms of firepower and endurance for Fighter capacity.

 

As for a couple other points. I see no reason IG-88 cant hack ships as he has in the past to discover the Stealthed fleet. Doing so will stop the Harrower's from taking that advantage. You will of course note that in addition to the ships i put directly against my enemies I had several more of greater caliber then the Republic-Class Star destroyers. As well as some that were specifically put up against the Harrower's, if these ships were to face the OCF ships they would heavily destroy them. Even if the Harrower's were to get the Drop Wedge is an extremely gifted commander I doubt that surprise would last very long and with the Strong hull's and less exposed bridges of my ships I believe he would be more then capable of responding before serious damage was done. Especially since I have way more capital ships then is needed to take the OCF Capital ships, the main issue being fighters of which the smaller ships can easily handle.

 

 

I honestly feel the safest place for Leia is on Hapes. Its where her supplier is, its where the queen mother lives whom respects Leia and has already agreed to help her. With the fleet overhead and a wealth of body gaurds as well as a place for her to safely moniter and command her troops. You and I both know Leia would want to be able to moniter a few of the battles and give some orders to help out. Being on a planets surface orbited by a large fleet and surrounded by proffesional body gaurds who stop assassinations on a daily to weekly basis is probably the safest place she can be.

Edited February 19, 2014 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

Since when is a augmented Harrower = Star Destroyer? How do we know that?

 

This whole augmented thing is rather vague to me....was it decided that there were specific augmentations done or?

 

Well the design of it I think is supposed to inspire that IMP II feel. The idea that it was worth 2 is the issue I am having with it. I would give it a 1.25-1.5 with the rakatta tech no more personally. Which is what my arguements have been clasifieing it as.