Is SWTOR the pariah of MMOs?

[mecher]

you know you are hilarious. and hypocritical, since you are flinging ad hominem insults left and right in practically every reply.

 

and if there's something in SWTOR you genuinely enjoy, enough to stay subscribed to it? then it must not be such a bad game, yes, even to your oh so particular tastes.

 

no popular =/= good anymore then niche = better. however, often times things become popular becasue they are good, becasue enough people find them appealing. so... popular =/= bad not is mainstream=bad, either, mkay?

you know. I can't stand girlscout cookies. they just don't work for my taste palate. like at all. but I know plenty of people who love the hell out of them stocking up whenever they have a chance. they genuinely love the taste and think its the best thing since sliced bread. it doesn't make them lemmings. it doesn't objectively make girl scout cookies bad, just because i don't like the way they taste. your opinion on what's good or bad? is merely your opinion. it is NOT by any means a fact.

 

Ad hominem would be me saying you are wrong because of "insert something personal."

 

I have not done that so nope. And also the only hypocrite here is you guys. When your argument is used against you, it's suddenly bad. If you are going to say because a few million people play a game it must be good, you are then saying anything popular is good by default.

 

It's called the ad populum argument, and it's a failure of one.

 

One of you essentially admits your entire argument is wrong, but then proceed to strawman me.

 

As I never said just because it's niche means it's better.

 

Now you saying I said things I never did.

Edited February 20, 2014 by mecher

[Mallorik]

Except the game is just WoW with a star wars skin for the most part. Why should WoW players leave for another game and start all over without their friends?

 

Idiots....

 

If this game was current wow in a star wars skin it probably wouldn't be f2p right now, but it was wow in 2004 with a star wars skin and still is.

[Mallorik]

ah.

 

you are one of them MMO hipsters.

 

which begs the question - if wow and post wow games are too mainstream for you... why are you here?

 

becasue... you know, those pre wow MMO's.. some of them are still actively running.

 

I am one of those mmo hipsters, I think wow is the bain of what was the mmorpg and what we have now is not even in the same class.

 

But I still acknowledge that wow is a well made and well run game and while the ruined the genre in most ways they also brought it to a new level by making it appeal to the masses.

 

Then you have games like swtor who copied all of the genre killing features of wow and the new breed of mmos and left out most of the cool quality of life features that make them bearable. And people still wonder why all these new games go f2p.

[mecher]

If this game was current wow in a star wars skin it probably wouldn't be f2p right now, but it was wow in 2004 with a star wars skin and still is.

 

If this was WoW in 2004 it wouldn't be as dumbed down as it is. Because yes, there was a time where WoW wasn't that dumbed down.

 

SW:TOR failed at launch for being exactly like WoW in terms of gameplay and having next to no end game content, along with never expanding on the class stories.

 

That is still one of the biggest, if not biggest, thing people want now, more class stories.

 

SW:TOR made the mistake of nearly every MMO after WoW has done, being too much like WoW. And unfortunately the main reason why a lot of people played SW:TOR in the first place, had it's future dependent on it also having WoW's success.

Edited February 20, 2014 by mecher

[agamemnon-]

And yet WoW constantly loses subs, it has now at nearly half of the amount of subs they had 2-3 years ago. It has one quick gain of 200k subs, in a few months those will certainly be lost and then some more on top of it.

 

The point is people are still playing it

 

That is a massive lost of money they would have normally gotten. And yes bad products can survive for a long time. And yes it is quite relevant that CoD ruined the entire FPS genre. Battlefield has the same success. Not as much, but still quite a bit.

 

The reason it is irrelevant is because there are millions of people that disagree with you. You cannot pass off your opinions as fact if the the player and financial numbers don't agree with you.

 

And yes, you guys are lemmings. You keep on saying it's popular therefore it's good. If jumping off a bridge to your death somehow became popular, would that also been good to do?

 

If you say no then you counter your entire argument that popular = good.

 

I never said WoW was good. In fact, I said I never played WoW. I also said that the numbers just don't agree with you. The whole point is that your opinion is not fact. If you are going to try to pass your opinion off as fact then you must present some evidence as to why WoW is bad despite the huge financial and critical success it has seen.

 

As for the whole bridge thing; the 80s called, they want there extremely stupid hypothetical scenario back. Unless one is suicidal or trying out for the X-Games, not many are going to be jumping off bridges anytime soon.

 

Ad hominem would be me saying you are wrong because of "insert something personal."

.

 

Attacking people's argument by saying they would jump off a bridge if it were popular is an Ad hominem.

Edited February 20, 2014 by agamemnon-

[mecher]

The point is people are still playing it

 

 

People are still playing the original EQ as well. Along with a certain emulator. So what?

 

The reason it is irrelevant is because there are millions of people that disagree with you. You cannot pass off your opinions as fact if the the player and financial numbers don't agree with you.

 

Again, millions smoke, play Farmvile, Angry birds, etc. Using this logic, smoking cigs is good for you, and Angry Birds and the like are the best games ever. As more people have played them than WoW players.

And their financial numbers don't agree with me? So you deny that they have lost over a billion in revenue in just a few year period? LOL! Oh boy...

 

I never said WoW was good. In fact, I said I never played WoW. I also said that the numbers just don't agree with you. The whole point is that your opinion is not fact. If you are going to try to pass your opinion off as fact then you must present some evidence as to why WoW is bad despite the huge financial and critical success it has seen.

 

I already did present evidence as to why it's bad. It's dumbed down as it can be. Any dumber and the game would literally play itself.

 

As for the whole bridge thing; the 80s called, they want there extremely stupid hypothetical scenario back. Unless one is suicidal or trying out for the X-Games, not many are going to be jumping off bridges anytime soon.

 

Not many have tried WoW once you look at population numbers for the major countries either, never mind comparing it to the world.

 

The fact you ignore my argument shows yours is bad to begin with. So stop with the whole it's good just because so many play it. It's a terrible argument.

Edited February 20, 2014 by mecher

[Mallorik]

If this was WoW in 2004 it wouldn't be as dumbed down as it is. Because yes, there was a time where WoW wasn't that dumbed down. .

 

Was wow your first mmo ? because while wow did get dumber it was always a lot dumber than the mmos that came before it.

[silentsurfer]

I'm not going to waste my time because I know the pathetic argument you guys will use next.

 

Pretty much it will be "it wasn't as popular as WoW therefore they weren't better."

 

So you just confirmed what I said. That you are too scared to give an opinion because it will be criticized.

There's nothing worse than someone who criticizes others opinions and in fact holds no real opinions of their own. Stop repeating what you read/hear others say and get an opinion of your own. Then take a stand on it for crying out loud.

[mecher]

Was wow your first mmo ? because while wow did get dumber it was always a lot dumber than the mmos that came before it.

 

WoW my first MMO? well that would be an impossible thing as I've never played WoW. One just has to read from people who had played it from launch to know it wasn't always so dumbed down.

[mecher]

So you just confirmed what I said. That you are too scared to give an opinion because it will be criticized.

There's nothing worse than someone who criticizes others opinions and in fact holds no real opinions of their own. Stop repeating what you read/hear others say and get an opinion of your own. Then take a stand on it for crying out loud.

 

No, because I know what your argument will be. You will go just because it wasn't as popular as WoW it's bad.

 

SWG was still a far better game then WoW, proven by the fact that the more then tried to make into WoW, the more it died.

 

The major reason why people were leaving was the bugs that were ignored, some of them major, that were around since beta. And the only content being added it were all tied in to the movies. I know this because I spoke to the people who were leaving. Despite the people leaving the player cities, but especially the world cities like Coronet, would be filled with people.

 

That changed with the CU, and with the NGE that completely WoWified the game, all cities became ghost cities. Player city or not.

 

But go ahead and try to use an argument beyond "it wasn't as popular as WoW therefore it's horrible." Any others you could use I already crushed. It's funny because at SWG's peak, it had nearly the same amount of subs as SW:TOR did when it went F2P.

 

Now who is scared?

Edited February 20, 2014 by mecher

[Mallorik]

WoW my first MMO? well that would be an impossible thing as I've never played WoW. One just has to read from people who had played it from launch to know it wasn't always so dumbed down.

 

Ahh so you are just a troll, lol I wish I would have known this before arguing anything with you.

[Reno_Tarshil]

WoW my first MMO? well that would be an impossible thing as I've never played WoW. One just has to read from people who had played it from launch to know it wasn't always so dumbed down.

 

You just lost all credibility. You can't speak ill about a game without having ever played it.

 

Good day.

[agamemnon-]

People are still playing the original EQ as well. Along with a certain emulator. So what?

 

If companies are still making money off those games, then it is a win for all involved.

 

 

Again, millions smoke, play Farmvile, Angry birds, etc. Using this logic, smoking cigs is good for you, and Angry Birds and the like are the best games ever. As more people have played them than WoW players.

And their financial numbers don't agree with me? So you deny that they have lost over a billion in revenue in just a few year period? LOL! Oh boy...

 

The smoking argument doesn't work because there is data suggesting that smoking is harmful, hence why it isn't good. Present data suggests that WoW is still doing well financially, critically, and with the player base.

 

As for Farmville and Angry Birds; if the player base is happy and the developer is happy making money, then as far as the players are concerned the games are good. You keep throwing in strawmans centering around "most popular game ever." No one has said WoW is the best game ever, only that your opinion isn't fact and that the numbers agree with that sentiment.

 

 

 

I already did present evidence as to why it's bad. It's dumbed down as it can be. Any dumber and the game would literally play itself.

 

No, all you have said is that "WoW is bad because I said so and my opinion is fact. You have not posted sources with comparisons, nor have posted reviews that compare WoW with other games. We have to take your word at it. Heck, you can't even be bothered to post those now famous pics that compare the Sith Juggernaut and Jedi Sage to their WoW counterparts and how blatant the copy and paste was. You have given nothing to your argument.

 

 

 

Not many have tried WoW once you look at population numbers for the major countries either, never mind comparing it to the world.

 

That is a weak argument and you know it.

 

The fact you ignore my argument shows yours is bad to begin with. So stop with the whole it's good just because so many play it. It's a terrible argument.

 

I have not ignored your argument, you just seem to have a reading comprehension problem.

[mecher]

You just lost all credibility. You can't speak ill about a game without having ever played it.

 

Good day.

 

Yes I can, there is a thing called videos. It's especially popular on many websites, quite a few are even dedicated to such things!

 

There is also a concept called watching others play. You know, friends, I mean more then just people on a friends list in WoW/SW:TOR.

[silentsurfer]

No, because I know what your argument will be. You will go just because it wasn't as popular as WoW it's bad.

 

SWG was still a far better game then WoW, proven by the fact that the more then tried to make into WoW, the more it died.

 

The major reason why people were leaving was the bugs that were ignored, some of them major, that were around since beta. And the only content being added it were all tied in to the movies. I know this because I spoke to the people who were leaving. Despite the people leaving the player cities, but especially the world cities like Coronet, would be filled with people.

 

That changed with the CU, and with the NGE that completely WoWified the game, all cities became ghost cities. Player city or not.

 

But go ahead and try to use an argument beyond "it wasn't as popular as WoW therefore it's horrible." Any others you could use I already crushed. It's funny because at SWG's peak, it had nearly the same amount of subs as SW:TOR did when it went F2P.

 

Now who is scared?

 

Obviously still you, you haven't named one yet, and you just re-affirmed exactly what I said here. You just said again your afraid of your opinion being criticized so you wont give one.

[agamemnon-]

You just lost all credibility. You can't speak ill about a game without having ever played it.

 

Good day.

 

Just read what he posted. I don't believe I have agreed much with you Reno, but I have to agree somewhat with you.

 

I can only say that I believe you can speak ill of a game one has never played, but only based on third party data and comparison of features (similar to how I am sort-of defending WoW despite having never played it but that defense is based on actual data).

 

Problem with the "gentleman" in question is a failure to post evidence to support his claim, other than "my opinion is fact because I said so."

 

Not to mention now he is basing popularity based on how many people out of a country's total population use something.

[silentsurfer]

WoW my first MMO? well that would be an impossible thing as I've never played WoW. One just has to read from people who had played it from launch to know it wasn't always so dumbed down.

 

Ok this just proved my other point. Your entire opinion is based on things others TOLD you.

[Mallorik]

WoW my first MMO? well that would be an impossible thing as I've never played WoW. One just has to read from people who had played it from launch to know it wasn't always so dumbed down.

 

Im curious what is is your mmo experience? being one of the 15 people who left swg when the nge "ruined" a dead game?

[mecher]

If companies are still making money off those games, then it is a win for all involved.

 

So you are going to ignore that fact that WoW is making 50% less then it did before? LOL. You honestly think losing over a billion dollars in profit is no big deal? Just amazing....

 

The smoking argument doesn't work because there is data suggesting that smoking is harmful, hence why it isn't good. Present data suggests that WoW is still doing well financially, critically, and with the player base.

 

So again, you will ignore the fact that it has lost a billion dollars in profit... Again, just amazing.... And there is objective evidence that WoW is bad because it was dumbed down. All I have to do is compared the gameplay to other MMOs, namely older ones.

 

As for Farmville and Angry Birds; if the player base is happy and the developer is happy making money, then as far as the players are concerned the games are good. You keep throwing in strawmans centering around "most popular game ever." No one has said WoW is the best game ever, only that your opinion isn't fact and that the numbers agree with that sentiment.

 

It's funny how you have no concept of a strawman and yet use it. It helps if you knew what that meant before you used it.

 

It's not a strawman, it's just a continuation of your guys' logic. WoW is good because 7 million people still play it. Well 100+ million people play Angry Birds, therefore Angry Birds must be one of the best games ever. This is YOUR logic being used against you. You can't handle it because it's poor logic. Unlike you however, I realize both are poor logic. And again you mention the numbers. AKA WoW is good because 7 million play it.

 

No, all you have said is that "WoW is bad because I said so and my opinion is fact. You have not posted sources with comparisons, nor have posted reviews that compare WoW with other games. We have to take your word at it. Heck, you can't even be bothered to post those now famous pics that compare the Sith Juggernaut and Jedi Sage to their WoW counterparts and how blatant the copy and paste was. You have given nothing to your argument.

 

Post sources with comparisons? You guys will just deny it if it was thrown at you and crushed your nose. And why would I post those images showing SW:TOR copied WoW when I already said SW:TOR copied WoW way too much.... Do you have actual brain damage? If so I will feel bad crushing you in this conversation.

 

The other parts I will ignore. When you start to claim I say SW:TOR didn't copy WoW when multiple messages I have made on this exact thread are me saying the opposite. It's pointless to continue this crushing of you. Goodbye.

[mecher]

Im curious what is is your mmo experience? being one of the 15 people who left swg when the nge "ruined" a dead game?

 

One of the 15 people that left SWG when the NGE hit? LOL.

 

There were quite a lot of people in fact playing it, admitting less then there was pre-CU.

 

But that just proves my point.

 

SWG was not dead at that point, however, it was dead after the NGE hit in just a few months. Funny how when it went full WoW it died...

[mecher]

Ok this just proved my other point. Your entire opinion is based on things others TOLD you.

 

Funny how you ignore my other comment. Or Youtube doesn't exist to you people. Or Twitch.

[Mallorik]

One of the 15 people that left SWG when the NGE hit? LOL.

 

There were quite a lot of people in fact playing it, admitting less then there was pre-CU.

 

But that just proves my point.

 

SWG was not dead at that point, however, it was dead after the NGE hit in just a few months. Funny how when it went full WoW it died...

 

Swg was a flop, it flopped out of the gate and never came back, I know I was there too and I even came back for jtl and end up only ever playing jtl when ever I went back from then on.

[Jeweledleah]

Ad hominem would be me saying you are wrong because of "insert something personal."

 

I have not done that so nope. And also the only hypocrite here is you guys. When your argument is used against you, it's suddenly bad. If you are going to say because a few million people play a game it must be good, you are then saying anything popular is good by default.

 

It's called the ad populum argument, and it's a failure of one.

 

One of you essentially admits your entire argument is wrong, but then proceed to strawman me.

 

As I never said just because it's niche means it's better.

 

Now you saying I said things I never did.

 

no honey. ad hominem is calling us lemmings, stupid, and all the other epithets you used, for thinking that wow is not a bad game, like you claim it is.

 

you are also further proving just how hypocritical you are, by twisting my words.

 

for some reason, without even playing the game you decided that wow was terrible. I wonder... is it because it became more successful than your niche favorites? do you dislike SWTOR because it was the cause of SWG shutdown? (you know IP licensing and all)

 

all you spout is unsubstantiated personal opinions (I regret to tell you, but "I watched a few videos and didn't like what I saw, with zero reason behind WHY you found what you saw lacking" is not substantiated proof) and insults aimed at everyone who doesn't share your opinions. you are refusing to present games you think are better and explain WHY they are better. you are a successful troll, I'll give you that, look at how you have us all going for multiple pages now. but that's all you are successful at, because your arguments? have no leg to stand on.

 

P.S. accessible=/= dumb

doesn't require playing for 10-12 hours of more at without stopping =/=dumb.

solo viability for player characters instead of requiring group at all times? =/= dumb.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Jeweledleah

[Fixiooo]

no honey. ad hominem is calling us lemmings, stupid, and all the other epithets you used, for thinking that wow is not a bad game, like you claim it is.

 

you are also further proving just how hypocritical you are, by twisting my words.

 

for some reason, without even playing the game you decided that wow was terrible. I wonder... is it because it became more successful than your niche favorites? do you dislike SWTOR because it was the cause of SWG shutdown? (you know IP licensing and all)

 

all you spout is unsubstantiated personal opinions and insults aimed at everyone who doesn't share your opinions. you are refusing to present games you think are better and explain WHY they are better. you are a successful troll, I'll give you that, look at how you have us all going for multiple pages now. but that's all you are successful at, because your arguments? have no leg to stand on.

 

P.S. accessible=/= dumb

doesn't require playing for 10-12 hours of more at without stopping =/=dumb.

solo viability for player characters instead of requiring group at all times? =/= dumb.

 

He saw it on Twitch and YouTube. Very strong argument. Truly.

[agamemnon-]

So you are going to ignore that fact that WoW is making 50% less then it did before? LOL. You honestly think losing over a billion dollars in profit is no big deal? Just amazing....

 

To date WoW has made $4.382 Billion in revenue. Losses are to be expected over a 10 year product run. Same principle that movies go through. Star Wars Episode IV at some point during its original run made less money than in previous weeks. Was it any less of a success because of that?

 

 

 

So again, you will ignore the fact that it has lost a billion dollars in profit... Again, just amazing.... And there is objective evidence that WoW is bad because it was dumbed down. All I have to do is compared the gameplay to other MMOs, namely older ones.

 

Again, all you are saying is that WoW was dumbed down. How was it dumbed down exactly? You say all you have to do is compare. Post t hose comparisons. Ultimately, so what if WoW is dumbed down. People enjoy playing it, and Blizzard is still making revenue.

 

 

 

It's funny how you have no concept of a strawman and yet use it. It helps if you knew what that meant before you used it.

 

It's not a strawman, it's just a continuation of your guys' logic. WoW is good because 7 million people still play it. Well 100+ million people play Angry Birds, therefore Angry Birds must be one of the best games ever. This is YOUR logic being used against you. You can't handle it because it's poor logic. Unlike you however, I realize both are poor logic. And again you mention the numbers. AKA WoW is good because 7 million play it.

 

Again, I didn't say WoW was good, only that the actual data that is freely available says that it isn't "objectively bad." People don't play "objectively bad" games, especially if said games have a monthly subscription on top of the price of the game and subsequent expansions. All anyone is saying is that your opinion is not fact, especially if it is unsupported.

 

 

 

Post sources with comparisons? You guys will just deny it if it was thrown at you and crushed your nose. And why would I post those images showing SW:TOR copied WoW when I already said SW:TOR copied WoW way too much...

.

 

Why would I deny it? I have already mentioned something that supports your argument. Review my post history and you will find that I agree that SWTOR copied WoW. There is no denying that. The problem is you are "saying" and not "showing." Actual data cannot be denied, but you have to show us something first, and do it in a bit more tactful manner.

 

 

Do you have actual brain damage? If so I will feel bad crushing you in this conversation..

 

Remember boys and girls, he doesn't do Ad Hominems.

 

 

The other parts I will ignore. When you start to claim I say SW:TOR didn't copy WoW when multiple messages I have made on this exact thread are me saying the opposite. It's pointless to continue this crushing of you. Goodbye.

 

Please link to one of my replies where I said SWTOR didn't copy WoW.

Edited February 20, 2014 by agamemnon-