Gunships Fleeing to Carriers

[Korithras]

you say its like its everyone, the way you use ever like that. I never use the capital ship like that, mainly because A: I can easily avoid an oncoming attacker by barrel rolling and doing some close turns near asteroids or something, and B: its not just gunships that do it I see other ships do the same thing. When I am on my strike, I like to scare them and make them run, they really need to look behind them. So what if the runners are cowards? cowardice loses matches and I like to win

 

Because in a deathmatch you need kills to win. And if they run to the carrier for safety, then you can't kill them to rack up the points to win. And I'm not saying "every" gunship pilot does it, and I'm not even saying that "only" gunship pilots do it. What I'm saying is they're the only type of ship where it creates a problem because they can still get you from inside the safety of the carrier's gun range.

[Korithras]

it was only that size before, then you edited and added more after I had already posted that don't blame me for you going in and editing right after posting

 

Nice attempt at covering yourself, but no. I didn't edit it. It's okay, just stop posting. Really. Nobody will think less of you just because you can't keep up with a simple debate.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Korithras

[Sangrar]

Because in a deathmatch you need kills to win. And if they run to the carrier for safety, then you can't kill them to rack up the points to win. And I'm not saying "every" gunship pilot does it, and I'm not even saying that "only" gunship pilots do it. What I'm saying is they're the only type of ship where it creates a problem because they can still get you from inside the safety of the carrier's gun range.

 

but if you can't get them and move away, they can't get you either, they have to go to you if they want to kill you. Anyway, I am not a fan of those people running to spawn which is why I suggest stuff like marking them afk upon entering that zone again or something, while at the same time not make spawncamping more of a possibility than it already is

[Ramalina]

Seriously, and any ship other than the bomber can outrun a gunship easily, and I have seen other ships use this so stop saying its just gunships!

 

Actually, pretty much any heavy scout set up for max maneuverability, and any strike not built specifically to maximize speed and range will have a hard time keeping up with a 'leggy' gunship build flown by a talented pilot. Granted, the GS is not doing anything but running during that period, but I've seen them run enough to run scouts out of fuel and then turn and nail 'em with a slug shot.

 

On the other hand there are maybe three GS pilots that I've seen on my server that are consistently good at doing this. So not really a big problem. Also if you can sneak up on them with 100% fuel, their success rate goes down, but not using boost to close on a good gunship pilot is rather foolhardy, so closing to blaster range with 100% engine pool is a fairly rare occurrence.

 

The main thing to remember about pursuing gunships is that if they run for it you either have to kill them before they make it to safety, OR you have to recognize that you aren't going to kill them and break off pursuit while you still have enough energy left to boost at least 15 km from the gunship and get behind cover so you can regen engine pool before they have a chance to turn back and line up a shot at you.

 

If you don't have the burst dps to kill a gunship quickly, then you shouldn't be chasing them long distances. If you can't kill them before they move or within the first 5 to 10 km of pursuit, just let them run and maintain awareness of where they are and where cover that you can use to break their line of sight is. If they come back, use cover to get close and chase them off again, eventually you may get help from your team, or you may get lucky and score a kill if they make a mistake.

[Korithras]

but if you can't get them and move away, they can't get you either, they have to go to you if they want to kill you. Anyway, I am not a fan of those people running to spawn which is why I suggest stuff like marking them afk upon entering that zone again or something, while at the same time not make spawncamping more of a possibility than it already is

 

I agree with you that spawn camping sucks (when you're the team that gets camped. XD) but moving away isn't necessarily an option when dealing with a ship that can fire from 15,000 meters. The moment you turn, if they're paying attention, they'll turn around (especially if they're using rotational thrusters) and open fire.

[Verain]

If they have rotational they don't have barrel roll.

 

 

More importantly, it takes a gunship fleeing several seconds to turn around, and many of the spawns have convenient los pillars for you, and all ships have nice short cooldown defensive tricks.

 

"But if I chased into a ship that was already at his cap ship, ignoring objectives, then he might shoot me"

 

"But he barrel rolled back then slowly turned around and I didn't think to use lateral movement or defensives or line of sight or anything at all to not get shot"

 

Gimme a break.

[Ramalina]

Has anyone tested distortion field against ship turrets since the nerf? If it's still good enough to provide complete or near immunity, then three flashfires/stings with the 6s version could zoom in and nail a GS with clusters to take it down. Of course, they might not make it out again, but capital ships don't provide true immunity, they just make pursuit extremely dangerous unless someone has gone in and taken down the turrets.

[Sangrar]

I agree with you that spawn camping sucks (when you're the team that gets camped. XD) but moving away isn't necessarily an option when dealing with a ship that can fire from 15,000 meters. The moment you turn, if they're paying attention, they'll turn around (especially if they're using rotational thrusters) and open fire.

 

which is why I never let it get to that point in the first place, when flying on my scout or strike I scare these guys and chase them, but once I see their destination I immediately stop and use rotation abilities of my own during the point where the gunship is still running and just before they realize and get as much distance as possible.

 

And if it gets to that point, eventually that guy will have to move, I mean, he blows up the guy chasing him, then what? even an idiot who is so much of a coward as to run away from the objectives will eventually have to go back in to combat if he wants to do anything else, and you can tell your team in chat to not go chasing, the guy will probably try running again first sign of trouble, but if the team doesn't chase him then that gunship gains nothing.

 

But I do agree with you that the fleeing thing is bad, I am just saying its not as bad though considering that while they are there they are not on nodes or anything, and even in deathmatch, most of the other ships are out there and not near the capital ships unless they are spawncamping. And I hate it when one of my own teammates tries to pull that, which is why the afk system should work and the stuff zoom said should apply, as it is that afk system is not working too well currently, on my minelayer, as I am laying mines on a node and as I am firing and defending I keep getting marked afk again and again, its insane, it should focus more on the capital ship area than anything, and a lot less on the nodes as they way I have seen it work so far (got video evidence on youtube too) it punishes people who defend nodes. but back on subject, I want the running to end, but I don't want something too rash either, just saying. did I write a wall of text again? this is what happens when I am at school all day, hardwires me...

[DarthVindictus]

No sympathy for those dumb enough to follow all the way back to a capital ship chasing a kill (hint, if they head too far away from a satellite, you've chased them off and are contributing to your team's victory by going back to the satellite and defending it/capturing it and engaging other gunships and sending them running)

 

also no sympathy for spawn campers.

 

Do you also complain about people running for their turrets in MOBA's?

[Danylia]

The main thing to remember about pursuing gunships is that if they run for it you either have to kill them before they make it to safety, OR you have to recognize that you aren't going to kill them and break off pursuit while you still have enough energy left to boost at least 15 km from the gunship and get behind cover so you can regen engine pool before they have a chance to turn back and line up a shot at you.

 

If you don't have the burst dps to kill a gunship quickly, then you shouldn't be chasing them long distances. If you can't kill them before they move or within the first 5 to 10 km of pursuit, just let them run and maintain awareness of where they are and where cover that you can use to break their line of sight is. If they come back, use cover to get close and chase them off again, eventually you may get help from your team, or you may get lucky and score a kill if they make a mistake.

This. Non-Gunships running to Capital ship aren't an issue, they left the satellite/engagement area just like you (the pursuer) and need the same amount time as you to return there. Gunship on the other hand must travel 30 km less than you (15 to the Gunship, 15 back to satellite/engagement area), and if you break the pursuit, it will likely return and shoot you in the back.

[Helig]

"Because my ship maneuvers better, any gunship I ever see ever at all should die and have nowhere to run and that would be fun for me and totally fair completely totally."

 

Signed, Every Bad Sting Pilot

 

 

PS: I ran into cap ship turrets today and that was totally not my fault!

"Because I have railguns, I should be able to shoot everyone from across half of the map with impunity, and whenever I'm threatened, I should be able to safely barrel roll to a capital ship, whose turrets obliterate or scare off the attacker, so that I can park and shoot enemies again - that's fun for me and totally fair completely totally."

 

Signed, Every Bad Gunship Pilot

 

P.S. I did 80k damage today spamming Ion railgun with 0 deaths, I'm pro!

 

 

P.P.S. I'm a genuinely bad Gunship pilot, so I'm totally using this. I'm maining other ships.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Helig

[Sidenti]

It's a valid tactic. If you've got the terrain, use it.

 

Do I like it? No. It's very effective against me currently because I get tunnel vision when I see a gunny - I just wanna blow it up, you know? But they know this, and let's face it - they don't like getting blown up. So, they retreat and hold tight in a corner of the map and hope someone stupid like me will charge.

 

It's a tactic generally only employed with effectiveness in deathmatches, and usually only by a team that's behind on the scoreboard. They're regrouping. There's nothing sinister about it - it's just smart flying.

 

To counter? Simply hold the lead and wait for 'em to come to you. Circle behind, blast away. It works.

[pitrik]

"Because my ship doesn't maneuver well, I should have a god-mode immunity section of the map to run to whenever I get shot at, for binky-suckling and diaper cleanup and that would be fun for me and totally fair completely totally."

 

Signed, Every Chickenshllt No-Legged-Kitty Gunship Pilot

 

PS: I wasn't checking my 6 and got anally reamed while drooling over another effort-free 15k-range-nuke kill, and that was totally not my fault!

 

I've seen the cowardly way you fly, Verain, and my heart bleeds for the inconvenience you're forced to suffer in between long-reach snipes. God forbid you should be forced to live with the inherent shortcoming of the ship you choose to fly.

 

While out in the middle of the furball in my paper-thin scout, attempting to enjoy the challenge of dogfighting, it's a bit of a buzz-kill to have a nuke dropped by someone with range immunity. OK, fine, be that as it may. I chose the fragile ship for its turn-fighting, I live with the consequences.

To then turn my attention to scratching the annoying itch that you've chosen to be, only to have you repeatedly gather up your skirts and WHAAAAAAAAAaaaaaa piss-trail your way back to immunity, defeats the thrill of Player-vs-PLAYER, as opposed to Player-vs-GODMODE-SAFETY.

 

TURBINE DEVS: These matches are ostensibly about -

A) Fun.

B) Skill.

C) Team play.

 

Given the short duration of the matches, I see no point in having any safe zone at all.

My suggestion for eliminating spawn-camping? Make many, many random spawn points all over the map, like the FPS shooter games I've played.

Once you're in the match, you're IN. Man-up and FIGHT. If you need afk time after soiling yourself, you shouldn't be wasting anyone else's time inside the match.

 

Get rid of the safe zones entirely. Run if you must, but you should suffer the risk and penalty of getting caught. This should be true for all ships, each with its unique pros/cons. Make your choice and live with it.

[Helig]

^

Rotational drives are well-balanced for Gunships, I believe - one of the reasons many good pilots prefer them over barrel roll. However, barrel roll engine essentially eliminates a major weakness the GS is supposed to have - mobility, and that's why it's so tempting to use in conjunction with cap ship turrets and personal overwhelming combat range to your (unfair) advantage.

 

No Barrel Roll for Gunships (might as well buff Interdiction) - no zooming back to cap ship as easily. I believe this is the only change that needs to be done to fix this issue.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Helig

[DarthVindictus]

^

Rotational drives are well-balanced for Gunships, I believe - one of the reasons many good pilots prefer them over barrel roll. However, barrel roll engine essentially eliminates a major weakness the GS is supposed to have - mobility, and that's why it's so tempting to use in conjunction with cap ship turrets and personal overwhelming combat range to your (unfair) advantage.

 

No Barrel Roll for Gunships (might as well buff Interdiction) - no zooming back to cap ship as easily. I believe this is the only change that needs to be done to fix this issue.

 

It would make gunships free kills though for anyone using missiles.

[Helig]

It would make gunships free kills though for anyone using missiles.

Replace Barrel with a turn drive, then, or add lock break to Interdiction. Distortion shield as it is now can also be upgraded to break missile locks.

 

Also, it *is* pretty easy to stuff a Gunship full of missiles, regardless of them having a lock break engine.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Helig

[Danylia]

It's a tactic generally only employed with effectiveness in deathmatches, and usually only by a team that's behind on the scoreboard.

I guess you never played against Republic Gunships in Lost Shipyard Domination

[Zharik]

I guess you never played against Republic Gunships in Lost Shipyard Domination

 

Oh I assure you that both sides can effectively harass B with gunships that can hide in their spawn easily enough.

[DarthVindictus]

Replace Barrel with a turn drive, then, or add lock break to Interdiction. Distortion shield as it is now can also be upgraded to break missile locks.

 

Also, it *is* pretty easy to stuff a Gunship full of missiles, regardless of them having a lock break engine.

 

Distortion Field lock break is terrible, as it does not break missiles that are in flight, and only gives a slight pause to a missile lock since it does not jet you out of range to be locked on again.

 

It's just bad in general to expect ships with slow turning and slow speed to dogfight in close range, unless they have so much hull and shields that they can just tank being plugged with missiles and outlast their attacker (such as bombers can)

 

Gunships drop really fast, have poor close range ability despite having burst lasers due to their slow turn rate, and lack lock on missiles to compliment their laser damage. The rail gun replacing missiles is no good at under 5000m, in fact under 10000m, you shouldn't be charging up rail shots you should be getting past 10000m away. Preferrably between 13,000-14,500m

[Ravenschild]

Simple fix: Pubside "Our automated anti fighter defenses are having an error and as such once you leave the safety of the ship,if you attempt to return they will fire on you. We are attempting to fix this issue." Imp side: "You will not retreat! If you do you will be shot by our anti fighter defenses!" Nobody gets to go back to the mother ship and hide behind mommas skirts. To balance this out so there is no spawn camping you have 2 spawns on each map like you do in TDM. Gunships are not really all that OP. That said however they can hide behind an asteroid etc and use sensor dampening rather than their mother ships guns. This encourages people to actually fight and stops the getting ahead on points in TDM and the team all going gunship and pulling back (which has actually happened in TDM btw) in order to win on the points they have already accumulated.

[Llama-Eight]

What pisses me off is they don't have the balls to stand and fight. Ever.

That's kinda the point though, Gunships are supposed to stay at range, they're not supposed to "stand & fight", they'll get creamed when the scout/strike fighter gets behind them. Your complaint would be like me complaining that scouts/strike fighters don't "have the balls" to stay at range & suck it up while I kill them.The entire point of the game is for your opponents to try & kill you while staying alive (& capping nodes where relevant). Just because your opponent isn't doing what you want them to do doesn't make them "dishonourable" or "unsportsmanlike".

 

And it just robs me of kills and wastes everybody's time.

And therein lies the problem, you just want to rack up your kills. Having an opponent that's trying to not get killed is apparently "wasting everyone's time".

 

Edit: Looking at it another way, you are trying to force the gunship to fight on your terms (at close range) where they are likely to loose & they're trying to do the same to you (fight at long range where you're likely to loose).

Edited February 11, 2014 by Llama-Eight

[DarthVindictus]

Simple fix: Pubside "Our automated anti fighter defenses are having an error and as such once you leave the safety of the ship,if you attempt to return they will fire on you. We are attempting to fix this issue." Imp side: "You will not retreat! If you do you will be shot by our anti fighter defenses!" Nobody gets to go back to the mother ship and hide behind mommas skirts. To balance this out so there is no spawn camping you have 2 spawns on each map like you do in TDM. Gunships are not really all that OP. That said however they can hide behind an asteroid etc and use sensor dampening rather than their mother ships guns. This encourages people to actually fight and stops the getting ahead on points in TDM and the team all going gunship and pulling back (which has actually happened in TDM btw) in order to win on the points they have already accumulated.

 

 

Sensor dampening is nerfed to near uselessness.

 

If a Gunship is in range to fire, it is visible to every ship.

 

No ship has under 15000 sensor range, dampening can't reduce sensor range below 15000m, and Gunships have to get to 14999m to hit.

[dancezwithnubz]

remove cap-ship cannons altogether, add more spawn-points and auto-spawn at any point without an enemy <20km?

[Helig]

Distortion Field lock break is terrible, as it does not break missiles that are in flight, and only gives a slight pause to a missile lock since it does not jet you out of range to be locked on again.

 

It's just bad in general to expect ships with slow turning and slow speed to dogfight in close range, unless they have so much hull and shields that they can just tank being plugged with missiles and outlast their attacker (such as bombers can)

 

Gunships drop really fast, have poor close range ability despite having burst lasers due to their slow turn rate, and lack lock on missiles to compliment their laser damage. The rail gun replacing missiles is no good at under 5000m, in fact under 10000m, you shouldn't be charging up rail shots you should be getting past 10000m away. Preferrably between 13,000-14,500m

Almost thought you're complaining that gunships are underpowered, if only for a moment. Funny that.

 

P.S. Even as a relatively awful/inexperienced gunship pilot, I manage to blow people up at under 5000m range. Mouse wheel zoom is your friend.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Helig

[mattycutts]

This. The fact that they can sit in safety and keep on fighting. Either penalize players for flying back to the carrier, or shorten the range on the gunship. Pick one.

 

Added in Edit: Or we could just remove the guns from the spawn carriers altogether.

 

totally way ouy, if you are in a position that a gunship is contributing to the offence from their capital ship means either your team is weird agenda or your spawn camping, spawn camping should always be met with death be it ground or space pvp personally. spawn camping just leads to more people quitting gsf.

 

if your team flies away from there capital ship how does that gunship contribute to the offensive? only have 15k range not 150k. lol