Dogfight??? Where???

[Royox]

Starship battles now are about mines launching missiles and firing railguns, bombers staying near an army of damage mines and repair drones and Gunships standing in one place firing the other people.

 

Where is the dogfight stuff? Only thing I do is being damaged by drones planted and by space-snipers.

[MCaliban]

Usually, half my team only has the default two ships unlocked, so there's lots of dog-fighting.

[Tenacity]

Agreed, at least before bombers it wasnt so effective to camp out in one spot, so you wound up with a little mobility to the matches and plenty of skirmishes between various shiptypes. Now bombers encourage all ships, especially gunships, to just huddle up in one spot for the entire match. Took all of the real dogfighting out of the game, and changed GSF from fun to frustrating overnight.

[Nemarus]

Which gamemode are you talking about?

 

For Deathmatch, there is tons of dogfighting. I routinely get over 80k damage and 15-25 kills in my Blackbolt, while suffering less than 5 deaths. How do I do this? I capitalize on my mobility. I use hit and fade tactics. I choose targets wisely and don't fly blindly into situations where I'm likely to die.

 

In Deathmatch, it's true that Gunships can dish out a lot of damage and kills if left alone. So don't leave them alone. Hunt them down mercilessly. If they flee to their capital ship, then leave them there. Gunships can move short distances quickly with Barrel Roll, but flying across the map or constantly fleeing pursuers will drain their engine energy quickly and leave them vulnerable.

 

In Deathmatch, I really don't see why anyone is having trouble with Bombers. A Bomber can't Barrel Roll, meaning it is stuck wherever it happens to be at the time. It is utterly vulnerable to medium and long range weapons. It cannot evade missiles. It's a big, fat, free kill. At worst, it's had time to deploy drones. If that's the case, and you don't have any long range weapons or EMP Missiles to counter ... then just avoid it. Once placed, the Bomber can't move its drones. And mines will only ever be a problem if you engage the Bomber at short range.

 

And Railgun Sentry drones should be treated just like Gunships. If you get hit by a railgun (which is very visually obvious), IMMEDIATELY press R and chase/kill what just shot you.

 

Domination is a different story. In Domination, both Bombers and Gunships know precisely where the other team NEEDS to be in order to win: on satellites. Thus it makes every bit of sense that Bombers are going to hug onto satellites, using them as cover as they devote power to shields and deploy mines and drones.

 

While EMP Pulse/Missile can help against such an entrenched Bomber, I'm not sure it's really effective at this point. Certainly when I'm turtling a node with my Razorwire, an EMP Pulse/Missile does not really concern me very much. The only really viable counters to this that I've found is a Gunship or a Minelayer with Seismic/Interdiction mines.

 

A Gunship can work safely from range to destroy the Bombers drones/mines and kill the Bomber itself.

 

A Minelayer can rush into the fortified node and drop its own Seismic/Interdiction mines, which will destroy all mines and drones in the area.

 

What is the role of a Scout or Strike in Domination then? To counter the Gunships.

 

I do agree this is a bit of a weak role. The Scouts and Strikes (both types of both) should have some viable means to approach a satellite that is guarded by a Bomber. But right now you really need one of the hard counters.

 

It's hard to say what BioWare's intention is here. Is Domination supposed to be ruled by the specialized Bomber and Gunship types, while Deathmatch favors the more traditional dogfighters? I'm guessing they don't want it to be that hard a distinction.

 

All that being said, Bombers and Deathmatch have been out for just one week. Have patience. BioWare's first batch of big GSF changes really did address some of the biggest issues brought up the community. And honestly, I feel like the game is at a better (though not perfect!) place now than it was pre-2.6. Pre-2.6, it was unhittable (Distortion Field) Gunships and Space Shotguns (Burst Laser Cannon Scouts) that ruled everything. Now at least there's a big more room for variety.

 

Patience!

Edited February 10, 2014 by Nemarus

[Armonddd]

In Deathmatch, I really don't see why anyone is having trouble with Bombers. A Bomber can't Barrel Roll, meaning it is stuck wherever it happens to be at the time. It is utterly vulnerable to medium and long range weapons. It cannot evade missiles. It's a big, fat, free kill.

 

Caveat: the following is only true because of my short range space cowboy playstyle.

 

As a scout, I always have trouble with bombers, even using the longest range weapons available (quads and pods with range capacitor). None of the builds I play have issues with damage output, but bombers have such ridiculous amounts of health that it's flat out impossible for me to burst them down the way I do any other ship in the game. The biggest reason bombers give me trouble is because instead of hitting barrel roll and getting out of my range, they hit the mine buttons... which fly a good distance behind the bomber and then have a fairly large threat range, so I often fly right into them.

 

And oh, by the way, seeker mines are buggy as all hell right now -- not only is it impossible to avoid taking 800+ base damage once it locks on to you, but they don't even appear to give the lock warning if they acquire a target shortly after launching.

 

Now, of course, this is all my fault. The proper course of action, as you say, is to avoid them and let the gunships and strikes handle them. But honestly, that's not fun for me, and neither is running (relatively) long range weapons. So yes, I will follow a bomber knowing that I'm asking to be blown up. And yes, I will blow up, entirely because it's my fault.

 

At the same time, I'm an experienced player who analyzes these things by instinct. A new player who's tailing a bomber closely because he was told that burst cannons are really powerful and that bombers have awful mobility is just going to blow up and not understand why.

 

And I think that's (at least part of) the heart of the problem: with the scout and strike fighter, the two ship classes you start with (and thus the only two ship classes most players are comfortable with), the goal is to deal damage through lasers while getting as close as possible (for increased damage and rolled accuracy) without getting so close that aiming becomes an issue.

 

Against three ship classes, this tactic provides maximum offensive power (and in many cases provides enough offensive power that defenses are a nearly negligible concern). The bomber's minelaying mechanics create a "maximum threat zone" in a bubble behind it, instead of a small cone in front of it (for burst lasers), 7 km out (for concs and mid-range lasers), or 12+ km out (for lolguns). And because of the bomber's surprisingly low speed, it's very, very easy to sucker even experienced pilots into getting into this bubble by switching between accelerating/boosting and brakes/fullstop.

[Cuomo]

Now, of course, this is all my fault. The proper course of action, as you say, is to avoid them and let the gunships and strikes handle them. But honestly, that's not fun for me, and neither is running (relatively) long range weapons. So yes, I will follow a bomber knowing that I'm asking to be blown up. And yes, I will blow up, entirely because it's my fault..

 

In other words: "Paper is fine. Nerf Rock. Signed Scissors."

 

There is just as much dogfighting as there was before bombers. Humping satellites is nothing new at all. The only thing that changed is Scouts not being the king of it anymore. The fact there is a certain craft better than you at a certain aspect of gameplay doesn't make that craft OP.

 

Bombers are not OP. Assuming equal skill level in Domination, scouts are weak against them. Gunships are a draw... unlikely to take a node, but able to keep one already held by sniping the slow bomber before it gets close. And strikes are good against them. One EMP missile, which the Bomber can do nothing against, and all mines are gone, drones are low enough health to be one shot, and the bomber can't deploy more making it only a matter of time till dead bomber. Switch to TDM, and both gunships and strikes have the upper-hand, while scouts are a draw, unlikely to get a kill but unlikely to be killed as they can easily fly away.

 

All this whining on the forums is like if the game launched without tanking trees/classes, so everyone used Sents to do the job,but now that tanks are added people are saying they are OP. No, they are just better at a specific role than you.

 

BTW, I mostly play Strike.

[DroidDreamer]

I've noticed a lot less people turret dogfighting with the x-button or their magic distortion field. Suckers. Welcome to the fight!

 

I agree with Shayd and others that GSF is much improved in 2.6. Bombers are tons of fun but they have their limits. Kudos to the devs for the balance pass on bombers since the closed beta.

 

I'm having a blast!

[Armonddd]

In other words: "Paper is fine. Nerf Rock. Signed Scissors."

 

More like "Having trouble with Rock. Oh well. Buff Paper. Signed, Scissors."

 

Did I not specifically say it was all my own fault? Did I ever claim bombers were OP or ask for a nerf? Did I ever say it was a problem that I was dying to bombers in TDM because of my tunnel vision?

 

Cause I'm pretty sure I made none of the claims you seem to think I did.

 

(RPS balance in MMO/FPS PvP is ******** anyway, but we won't go into that right now.)

[Zoom_VI]

More like "Having trouble with Rock. Oh well. Buff Paper. Signed, Scissors."

 

Did I not specifically say it was all my own fault? Did I ever claim bombers were OP or ask for a nerf? Did I ever say it was a problem that I was dying to bombers in TDM because of my tunnel vision?

 

Cause I'm pretty sure I made none of the claims you seem to think I did.

 

(RPS balance in MMO/FPS PvP is ******** anyway, but we won't go into that right now.)

 

To be fair, practically every single person that has come in saying "bombers are fine L2P" has been a gunship......

And yes I really wish they could come up with something better than RPS balance, particularly when part the equation hasn't been implemented yet. (gunships lack a hardcounter, conversely Scouts also do not hardcounter anything, albet there are softcounters.)

[Altheran]

To be fair, practically every single person that has come in saying "bombers are fine L2P" has been a gunship......

And yes I really wish they could come up with something better than RPS balance, particularly when part the equation hasn't been implemented yet. (gunships lack a hardcounter, conversely Scouts also do not hardcounter anything, albet there are softcounters.)

 

You may be eager to see Infiltrator-class ships then...

[Zoom_VI]

You may be eager to see Infiltrator-class ships then...

 

That was my point...

 

Unfortunately those don't come till June.

[ToMyMa]

Caveat: the following is only true because of my short range space cowboy playstyle.

 

As a scout, I always have trouble with bombers, even using the longest range weapons available (quads and pods with range capacitor). None of the builds I play have issues with damage output, but bombers have such ridiculous amounts of health that it's flat out impossible for me to burst them down the way I do any other ship in the game. The biggest reason bombers give me trouble is because instead of hitting barrel roll and getting out of my range, they hit the mine buttons... which fly a good distance behind the bomber and then have a fairly large threat range, so I often fly right into them.

 

And oh, by the way, seeker mines are buggy as all hell right now -- not only is it impossible to avoid taking 800+ base damage once it locks on to you, but they don't even appear to give the lock warning if they acquire a target shortly after launching.

 

Now, of course, this is all my fault. The proper course of action, as you say, is to avoid them and let the gunships and strikes handle them. But honestly, that's not fun for me, and neither is running (relatively) long range weapons. So yes, I will follow a bomber knowing that I'm asking to be blown up. And yes, I will blow up, entirely because it's my fault.

 

At the same time, I'm an experienced player who analyzes these things by instinct. A new player who's tailing a bomber closely because he was told that burst cannons are really powerful and that bombers have awful mobility is just going to blow up and not understand why.

 

And I think that's (at least part of) the heart of the problem: with the scout and strike fighter, the two ship classes you start with (and thus the only two ship classes most players are comfortable with), the goal is to deal damage through lasers while getting as close as possible (for increased damage and rolled accuracy) without getting so close that aiming becomes an issue.

 

Against three ship classes, this tactic provides maximum offensive power (and in many cases provides enough offensive power that defenses are a nearly negligible concern). The bomber's minelaying mechanics create a "maximum threat zone" in a bubble behind it, instead of a small cone in front of it (for burst lasers), 7 km out (for concs and mid-range lasers), or 12+ km out (for lolguns). And because of the bomber's surprisingly low speed, it's very, very easy to sucker even experienced pilots into getting into this bubble by switching between accelerating/boosting and brakes/fullstop.

 

I run with clusters/bursts and have zero problems killing bombers. Just pop overcharge, fly down behind them and kill them before they can lay any mines/drones. Easy peasy.

Edited February 11, 2014 by ToMyMa

[Itkovian]

Personally I'm loving GSF since 2.6. There's plenty of dogfighting, and life sure as heck is a lot better for us Strike Pilots.

 

With the nerf to DF and the introduction of Bombers, Strike fighters have come into their own as the "jack of all trades" fighter. I find myself dogfighting and attacking all roles with excellent results, and I'm having a blast.

 

So at least from my observations, if you think the game is nothing but bombers mining and gunships sniping, you aren't trying hard enough. Load up a strike fighter, go hunting, and have fun.

[Royox]

Personally I'm loving GSF since 2.6. There's plenty of dogfighting, and life sure as heck is a lot better for us Strike Pilots.

 

With the nerf to DF and the introduction of Bombers, Strike fighters have come into their own as the "jack of all trades" fighter. I find myself dogfighting and attacking all roles with excellent results, and I'm having a blast.

 

So at least from my observations, if you think the game is nothing but bombers mining and gunships sniping, you aren't trying hard enough. Load up a strike fighter, go hunting, and have fun.

 

yes...you can dogfight until 2-3 bomber mines destroy you with railguns and seeker missiles while a gunship is destroying everybody because if you approach him the mines will dstroy you.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Royox

[Onodrain]

Most of the complaints I see on this post are one thing.

 

I liked how GSF was before 2.6. Why did they have to change it?

 

They added new tactics, which I think make it more compelling. They added EMP missiles and PBAoE blasts to different ships to help balance. When 2.6 first came out, my bomber was doing great cause people did not know how to respond. Now people are learning new tactics and it makes it a lot more challenging.

 

The great part is, I can change which ships I play to fit the new GSF.

 

Adapt. There is plenty of fun to be made in GSF. Spread your wings, learn new tactics. Have fun!

[Vachek]

I haven't seen a dog fight from day 1, if you mean any measure of skill and fun. Lock-on spam killed any measure of dog fighting.

[Itkovian]

yes...you can dogfight until 2-3 bomber mines destroy you with railguns and seeker missiles while a gunship is destroying everybody because if you approach him the mines will dstroy you.

 

... that's why you destroy the mines FIRST. Strikes can shoot mines down outside of their range, and has the survivability to stand many drone hits.

 

Having personally gone in to minesweep and clear the C sat on Lost Shipyards in my Pike(destroying the bombers in the process), I can assure you it is quite doable. And that's without EMP missiles (I find Protorps and Clusters far more useful). It's even easier in a Star Guard with Heavy Lasers (well, or the Pike with Heavy Lasers, but I prefer Quads).

 

I strongly suggest you load range capacitors, they're wonderfully useful.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Itkovian

[okiobe]

I haven't seen a dog fight from day 1, if you mean any measure of skill and fun. Lock-on spam killed any measure of dog fighting.

 

I used to run with sabotage probe for killing gunships that flee to the spawn. My kills came from burst laser shots. I would end matches with over half my missiles and no deaths. The only annoying think about missiles was the shield piercing and now that has been offset by repair drones. I can bet that all the top damage dealers (minus gunships and bombers) are doing most of the damage with their primary weapons.

 

EDIT: I've been able to dogfight in every match I've played.

Edited February 11, 2014 by okiobe

[Nemarus]

I haven't seen a dog fight from day 1, if you mean any measure of skill and fun. Lock-on spam killed any measure of dog fighting.

 

In Deathmatch, I routinely get 20+ kills, 10+ assists, under 5 deaths, and over 80k damage ... in my BLACKBOLT ... against new and experienced pilots alike.

 

My Blackbolt ... which has Laser Cannons and Dumb Fire Rocket Pods. And no I don't even use Distortion Field. I can put up these numbers on my main with his mastered Blackbolt, or with my alt whose Blackbolt is barely upgraded at all.

 

I dominate not through gear or gimmick or auto-aim or lock-on, but through mobility, situational awareness, and reflexes--in other words skill and experience. If that isn't dogfighting, what is?

Edited February 11, 2014 by Nemarus

[Gavin_Kelvar]

Personally I'm loving GSF since 2.6. There's plenty of dogfighting, and life sure as heck is a lot better for us Strike Pilots.

 

Very true.

 

I'm still working on the best counter bomber set up on my Star Guard (I'm liking heavies + Ions and thinking Range Capacitor might be good instead of frequency) but overall I like how 2.6 took away the dominance of scouts and gave strikes more of an actual role.

 

The only problem I really see with bombers is when one team is more coordinated than the other and can give bombers good fighter escorts. But in those matches most of my trouble/death is due to strikes/scouts/gunships and I very much doubt that if bombers weren't there that my team would some how have won.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Gavin_Kelvar

[Itkovian]

Personally I'm loving GSF since 2.6. There's plenty of dogfighting, and life sure as heck is a lot better for us Strike Pilots./QUOTE]

 

Very true.

 

I'm still working on the best counter bomber set up on my Star Guard (I'm liking heavies + Ions and thinking Range Capacitor might be good instead of frequency) but overall I like how 2.6 took away the dominance of scouts and gave strikes more of an actual role.

 

The only problem I really see with bombers is when one team is more coordinated than the other and can give bombers good fighter escorts. But in those matches most of my trouble/death is due to strikes/scouts/gunships and I very much doubt that if bombers weren't there that my team would some how have won.

 

Well, if the other team is better coordinated, odds are you're in trouble no matter what you're flying.

 

As for the Star Guard, I am going back to Heavy Lasers and Rapid Fires. I thought Ion Cannon might have promise for its energy training, but bombers go down easily enough to concussions anyway.

 

But Heavy Lasers w/ range capacitor are excellent for popping mines and drones, and nailing bombers from Far Away.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

As for the Star Guard, I am going back to Heavy Lasers and Rapid Fires. I thought Ion Cannon might have promise for its energy training, but bombers go down easily enough to concussions anyway.

 

I've also been using ions as a good way to rip down a guy's shields so I can destroy them even faster with heavies. I've found the only reason Ions can be iffy against bombers is the short range puts you within range of their mines/drones which is why I'm now toying with the idea of the range capacitor.

 

I like the idea of rapids in theory but I kept finding that they just didn't do enough damage to really be useful in the burst DPS situations I usually found myself at close range (in part because I just couldn't bring down their shields before they slip away). It may be a product though of not having them fully upgraded.

 

But Heavy Lasers w/ range capacitor are excellent for popping mines and drones, and nailing bombers from Far Away.

 

Yeah I've been noticing my biggest problem with drones/mines and bombers more generally is that I have to get closer than might be desirable when using the frequency capacitor.

[Yndras]

Starship battles now are about mines launching missiles and firing railguns, bombers staying near an army of damage mines and repair drones and Gunships standing in one place firing the other people.

 

Where is the dogfight stuff? Only thing I do is being damaged by drones planted and by space-snipers.

 

Agreed, at least before bombers it wasn't so effective to camp out in one spot, so you wound up with a little mobility to the matches and plenty of skirmishes between various shiptypes. Now bombers encourage all ships, especially gunships, to just huddle up in one spot for the entire match. Took all of the real dogfighting out of the game, and changed GSF from fun to frustrating overnight.

 

This is my sentiment also. If you are not playing a gunship or a bomber, this game is frustrating. And when you do finally get into a dogfight, you are killed by the gunship you just chased off.

 

I do not enjoy being bombed and sniped to death to the point where I do not stand a chance.

 

You have taken away every defensive capability my fighter had. I can't manoeuvre as the place is smitten with mines, drones and defensive satellites. If I take out the drones, then the fighters/gunships destroy me, if I focus on the fighters/bombers the drones/mines destroy me, if I chase the gunships they go to the capital ships, then I turn away and the gunship kills me, or the capital ship turrets do.

 

Just exactly what is the strategy one is supposed to employ for these situations?

 

I don't like the play style of the bomber, or the gunship, and I don't find running away with my thruster's that much fun either, why can we not just have the good old fashioned dogfight gameplay back?

Edited February 11, 2014 by Yndras

[Yndras]

It's hard to say what BioWare's intention is here. Is Domination supposed to be ruled by the specialized Bomber and Gunship types, while Deathmatch favors the more traditional dogfighters? I'm guessing they don't want it to be that hard a distinction.

Patience!

 

Both Game modes are ruled by them. You were in beta, they dominated there too. My last death match had 4 bombers, and 4 gunships with 2 scouts.

 

The bombers all had rail gun sentry's and the scouts hassled the 1 or 2 gunships we had. It was a massacre. I don't care what you think, get past one or two bombers/gunships and the game fails to ****.

[Nemarus]

Both Game modes are ruled by them. You were in beta, they dominated there too. My last death match had 4 bombers, and 4 gunships with 2 scouts.

 

The bombers all had rail gun sentry's and the scouts hassled the 1 or 2 gunships we had. It was a massacre. I don't care what you think, get past one or two bombers/gunships and the game fails to ****.

 

I've yet to run into a problem with Bombers in Deathmatch, but I haven't run into a team full of them either. I could see where multiple Bombers working in concert with Gunships could be troublesome.

 

I do agree in Domination they are bit overtuned. Even one Bomber (especially when piloted by a skilled pilot) takes way too much team effort to dislodge from a satellite. I say that as someone who flies a Minelayer explicitly built to single-handedly hold a node against multiple attackers.

 

I do wish BioWare had just started with the Minelayer ... it's still very effective, but it's a bit less "noisy". And mines take a bit more skill (not a huge amount) to use than drones but are also more easily countered. I think it would've been less disruptive to introduce Minelayers first... balance them ... and then possibly dip a toe in with Dronecarriers.

 

I still wish they had taken our beta feedback and made all drones support debuffers/buffers, instead of drones doing direct damage. That way drones could also have had shorter cooldowns and been less all-or-nothing in terms of their effectiveness.