Why play a sorcerer/sage healer anymore?

[Razortron]

Exactly why play a sorc!

[AdrianDmitruk]

I still main a sorc healer in PVP, but only out of an intense desire to thumb my nose at the developers for telling us to heal to full and make them pay rather than actually giving us bona fide answers to our class questions.

 

I play the bubblestun hybrid heal spec because it's the only way a sorc healer can actually get enough CC to make them pay for trying to kill you. Bubblestun is also really nice against the current stealth DPS meta (deception sins, and now everyone's trying out the buffed concealment op).

 

That said, I have to be at the absolute top of my game to heal as much as a mediocre operative--the value of bubblestun spec doesn't really shine until you piss off enough enemies with the bubblestun that they tunnel you, and then you kite them into a huge diversion and hold them off/stall as long as possible while your team caps an objective/scores a kill in arena. It takes skill to master as it got nerfed in 2.0 and a mind capable of understanding strategy and tactics to play well but if you are intent on healing with a sorc in pvp, bubblestun is pretty much all that is left.

[Helig]

Agreed, their gap closer is supposed to be only that, the ability to close a gap. The auto interrupt and root is too much.

Interrupt - yes, but without the root, it's nearly useless. The way the game is coded, you jump to the point where the enemy was standing by the time the skill was activated - and you're essentially stunned for the duration of the jump animation. The simple act of strafing would result in around 15 meters distance by the time the warrior lands.

 

In short, the root is necessary for charge to work properly.

 

Also, it's not the warrior classes that I hate the most on my Sorc - it's stealth classes. Arseload of burst/spike, good CC in melee range, always strike first from stealth, vs squishiest class in the game. You do the math.

[AdrianDmitruk]

Interrupt - yes, but without the root, it's nearly useless. The way the game is coded, you jump to the point where the enemy was standing by the time the skill was activated - and you're essentially stunned for the duration of the jump animation. The simple act of strafing would result in around 15 meters distance by the time the warrior lands.

 

In short, the root is necessary for charge to work properly.

 

Also, it's not the warrior classes that I hate the most on my Sorc - it's stealth classes. Arseload of burst/spike, good CC in melee range, always strike first from stealth, vs squishiest class in the game. You do the math.

 

The root is broken as if we have fadeout active we are supposed to have root immunity. Yet the charge will still rubberband us back to the destination of the leap regardless of such immunity. This leads to situations in which a smasher leaps to us and we sprint off, only to get hit by the smash that we should have been 15m away from--because the leap rubberbanded us and brought us back to the smash. Alternatively I wait until the leap is completed to run away so the fadeout Force Speed isn't wasted by the rubberbanding but the smash is instant on landing so I get hit anyway (and I'm then only escaping from any follow-up).

 

Same goes for Veng Juggs. I should be able to react instantly to a leap by sprinting away with fadeout, but I cannot because I know I will get rubberbanded back. Enter eating at least the first two ticks of root ravage, and sometimes even the ravage will rubberband me back enough to eat the last tick as well.

 

The root would be tolerable if it properly respected root immunity and leaping actually required enough skill to wait until such immunity had expired.

Edited February 8, 2014 by AdrianDmitruk

[Helig]

^

We can discuss this once I stop falling through the gosh darn floor sometimes I charge someone. Often fatally, unless they're on a ramp.

 

In all seriousness, though - everyone suffers from rubberbanding. I sometimes charge as *Vigilance* Guardian (ergo, Unstoppable), to be rubberbanded back to someone who apparently "stunned" or "rooted" me milliseconds before I started the jump. That's the result of lag in client-server communication, and I'm afraid there isn't much that can be done about that - at least the solution isn't as easy as "nerf Warrior roots".

Edited February 8, 2014 by Helig

[Mursie]

while i admit that my highest hits and easiest kills are sorcs/sages in general on my min/max Op... i have to tell you, a well played sorc/sage is pretty damn near unkillable.

 

I fought one earlier today on denova and he was solo holding point. his bubble absorbs the entire opener and shiv almsot every time. i proceed to do the regular rotation and his health is never really in question with teh ability to buy time via knockback and stun. after a good 10 to 15 seconds...if he is even remotely low on health.. he barrier and by that time..help has arrived. He was easily holding up and tanked the dmg no problem using his speed, stuns, knockback, etc. a good sorc/sage does not fear an op solo 1v1.. that's my opinion.

[AdrianDmitruk]

^

We can discuss this once I stop falling through the gosh darn floor sometimes I charge someone. Often fatally, unless they're on a ramp.

 

In all seriousness, though - everyone suffers from rubberbanding. I sometimes charge as *Vigilance* Guardian (ergo, Unstoppable), to be rubberbanded back to someone who apparently "stunned" or "rooted" me milliseconds before I started the jump. That's the result of lag in client-server communication, and I'm afraid there isn't much that can be done about that - at least the solution isn't as easy as "nerf Warrior roots".

 

Unfortunately the rubberbanding I describe is a "feature" to make sure the warrior lands on target, not a bug or client desync.

 

It happens literally every single time I activate sprint during a warrior leap before the warrior lands, without fail. It is easily replicable. If it was simply a client-server desync issue, it would be more random than that. The only workaround seems to be waiting to sprint until after the warrior lands on me, but that means I must eat an attack I shouldn't have to.

[AdmiralParmesan]

while i admit that my highest hits and easiest kills are sorcs/sages in general on my min/max Op... i have to tell you, a well played sorc/sage is pretty damn near unkillable.

 

I fought one earlier today on denova and he was solo holding point. his bubble absorbs the entire opener and shiv almsot every time. i proceed to do the regular rotation and his health is never really in question with teh ability to buy time via knockback and stun. after a good 10 to 15 seconds...if he is even remotely low on health.. he barrier and by that time..help has arrived. He was easily holding up and tanked the dmg no problem using his speed, stuns, knockback, etc. a good sorc/sage does not fear an op solo 1v1.. that's my opinion.

 

It's easily accepted that sorc healers are the easiest to kill of all the healing options. Beyond that point no decent healer should die to a single dps anyway.

[Helig]

Unfortunately the rubberbanding I describe is a "feature" to make sure the warrior lands on target, not a bug or client desync.

 

It happens literally every single time I activate sprint during a warrior leap before the warrior lands, without fail. It is easily replicable. If it was simply a client-server desync issue, it would be more random than that. The only workaround seems to be waiting to sprint until after the warrior lands on me, but that means I must eat an attack I shouldn't have to.

Like I said before, without the root, charge would be useless - and sometimes potentially harmful (aside the fall-through-the-floor bug). Hold the line/HO perfectly illustrates what use a charge is without the root.

 

Unless you can change leap direction mid-flight (basically, the character would "home in" on the enemy a la Disturbance ball) and you gain control *exactly* the moment the character's feet touch the ground (right now there's a very noticeable delay), the root is absolutely necessary. Otherwise it's almost like having Force Speed root you for a second (cartoon dashing animation mental images), and only then provide the burst of speed. Or root you for half a sec when it ends.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Helig

[Cempa]

So Force Charge 2 sec root (3 sec talented) that also is a free interrupt into a 3 sec ravage root just to compensate for the game engine being so bad (rubernecking) ok got it! If only the root parade ended there it keeps coming never ending...

[Ottoattack]

MMO players tend to urge and never agree on anything. PvP players even more. There is an overwhelming consensus that sorc healer suck.

 

As balance currently stand ops edge sorc, by a huge margin, in every aspect of healing, wither it is output, utility or survivability. Probably merc as well after recent buffs. Why would anyone play sorc healer in competitive play?

[Helig]

So Force Charge 2 sec root (3 sec talented) that also is a free interrupt into a 3 sec ravage root just to compensate for the game engine being so bad (rubernecking) ok got it! If only the root parade ended there it keeps coming never ending...

Almost thought that you were implying that Vengeance and Carnage are OP. Funny that.

 

Also, I agree that it doesn't need to interrupt.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Helig

[Houzukimaru]

There is an overwhelming consensus that sorc healer suck.

 

That sums up what caught my eye about this thread. It's like Sages and Commandos are competing to be the least desirable healing class, because until sometime last year, no PUG wanted a Commando as their healer.

[Alrinea]

Commando/Mercenary heal have been buffed quite a bit and with 2.6.a, for exaple they will finally can put probe on several targets. Commando heal ist now so difficult to kill, its not so easy anymore. If the guard comes fast, he properly wont die, we tested it, 3 DDs all by ca. 1,8-2k dps on 1 commando heal with guard. We couldnt kill him, but I think its good and nice for balancing.

 

I play a Sage/Sorc and Scoudrel Heal and its not quite true. I have with my Sage mostly 2-2,3k hps in arneas, I can deffinetly compete with Commandos and Scoudrels in that area. The problem with occurs is, you have 0 constant instant heal

- the hot heals crit for 2,4k incombat and has a CD of arround 6 secs

- shield absorbs skilled ca. 6,5k dmg AND HAS a CD of arround about 13,5 secs.

AND you have way to less survivability. The DDs is not useable (in my eyes) in the arena, even in DOT-spec, BGs 8 vs 8 is a complete different matter. A healer can survice, a DD does not. The main Problem for a sage/sorc healer in the arena/8 vs 8 is the force/mana, nothing else. You are the focus traget, therefore you cannot really trade life for force. In arena fights i simply go OOM at some point, every other healer heals for eternity and I just go OOM. We need reduction on heal spells or something else, like the force pool is instanly full. Put a CD on it with 3 Minutes, thats fine. BUT WE NEED SOMETHING, its the same for the madness Sage, he also simply goes OOM at some point.

 

My proposel for Changes would be:

1.) First:: ALL Sages/Sorcs get: -sprint removes all root/movement imparing effects without skilling it and are immun for the duration of sprint (the healer can skill it)

 

2.) 2nd ALL Sages/Sorcs: Bubble explosion without skilling it, ONLY for themeself.

 

3.) 3rd DDs Sages (BOTH DDs Specs) should get: knock back roots for 5 secs (dmg breaks it after 2 secs), but it in both trees in tier 5 or 6 so the healer wont be able to skill it.

 

4.) Heal Sages can skill, that when sprint is used they are stun immun, like the guardin after a jumb in middle spec.

 

5.) Heal Sages can skill: In the Bubble, they can ONLY use Heal spells / DD sage can skill: In the Bubble they can use ONLY dmg spells (AND dont be hading, it a *********** 3 minute CD... ) for the full duration of the 8 seconds

 

6.) Sprint should trigger something, in all three specs:

Heal: The next 3 Heal-spells cost 0 mana AND are instant, the heal is increased by 20%.

DD telekinetics (middle tree): next 3 casts are instant and the dmg is increased by 50% (AND DONT BLABLABLA me, the dmg output for Turbolence is laughable).

DD madness (right tree): next 3 casts cost 0 force and the dmg is increased by 50% percent.

 

7.) The base dmg is increase for madness and telekiniesis significantly

 

8.) Force amor force cost is reduce from 60 to 30 force, healer can skill is and its free

 

9.) The Instant heal can be put on different targets, NOT just ourselves, the healer can reduce the CD of it from 30 seconds to 10.

 

10.) We need a 2nd def skill, except the 3 minute-****-you-bubble. I would recommand: 50% DMG reduction skill for 10 seconds with a 3 minute cd.

 

11.) The madness dots should not be dispellebale at all, even dodge of scoudrels or snipers. How useless is it, the own class cannot dispell them, but a other class can (even if its a cd of around about 15-20 seconds on it).

 

I really love my sage, but face it, how we are now we not really competeable. The Healer a little, but the DD not really. BIOWARE DO FINALLY SOMETHING ABOUT THAT, but we sadly know BIOWARE does not really think more from 10 to lunch. ... Please excuse my English, I am not a native speaker.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Alrinea

[patbosc]

Guys, Bioware is just horrible bussy at the moment creating new content and overpowering operative and powertech and mercenary. That's why they don't care. Considering ESO around the corner they have really a hard time making swtor more attractive.

 

But just 2 cents about the sorc class I still like to play the most!

 

Mostly I agree with everything you guys wrote. Just want to through my 2 cents in.

 

1st the Resolvebar

Since 1.5 year it is on the backlog of the developers but somehow the program or game managers just slip it from release to release.

Some smart *** over there even came up with the idea of removing the force barrier from the active spells the sorc / sage can use. so that leaves you to unbreakable will which is just fine if the resolve bar would work. But since it doesn't you screwed. That's is true for both 8v8 as well as 4v4.

I think you should also differentiate solo and premade teams in arena. While in premade you have a chance in solo you are pretty much dead.

 

2nd the Instant vs. Activation

While the Operative heal has pretty much all it's skills as instant it is very hard to interrupt him. And sooner or later he gets the colto injection through in the meanwhile he can cast a lot of healing spells. Well the sorc. / sage on the other hand can't he only has Resurgance which gives you something like 1,5 k till 2k heal and has a cooldown of 6 seconds. Basic rotation for sorc is Resurgance and Innervate if I look at most of the sorc / sage players these days. But it's pretty easy to interrupt that rotation. If a good push with the right amount of stun is done. The team in 4 vs 4 really get some trouble. And the good old trick with let them interrupt Dark infusion and cast innervate doesn't work for most of the wz I played lately. Because in premade vs. premade they really watch close on the sorc/sage what he is doing.

Well but the sorc can use the polarity shift to cast at least 2 spells through. That's when the assassin / shadows / scoundrel / operative jumps in and try to cc you. So it is hard for a sorc to survive a good push.

 

3rd Defense

Affliction, Jolt, Electrocute, Overload and Force Slow used to be a very handy weapons for defense in 8v8 and still is. Except they powered up the other classes so much that you really have a hard time in 8v8 now a days as well. While I was able to defense my self against 3 - 5 players it's really hard now.

 

I totally agree, as a sorc with a lot of training in a premade group you could still be very usefull in ranked but you really need a good team watching you and enough endurance and a tank which helps you.

 

So what to say: Most ppl I know leveled up a operative heal, so did I. But I have to admit. The Operative is a nice class and I like the healing spec. But I really enjoy the sorc more.

Me and the others really hoped that with 2.5 and 2.6 we will get our revenge. But sadly nothing changed. Still the course of EA is overpowering all the classes and only leave the sorc / sage alone with minor fixes. Which in most of the cases are a benefit for the other classes.

 

And Bioware ... NO I don't care for a new class or race I can level up to 100 valor.

 

I remember the same thing was happening in WoW once. An a lot of Chars effected just met every day at the start up zone of the enemy and killed the new guys for over one week 24h ours a day. Guess what it didn't took them long to respond and release a update to the effected classes. But sadly we can not go there. But if you planning to do something like that. Count me in!

In the meanwhile I challenge the Ticket System every day: Fix and Update the sorc. class.

 

Anyways talked to one of my Bioware friends lately and guess what: please write in the forum.

So it's what I did and what the guys ignore since about 6 months now.

[AdrianDmitruk]

Like I said before, without the root, charge would be useless - and sometimes potentially harmful (aside the fall-through-the-floor bug). Hold the line/HO perfectly illustrates what use a charge is without the root.

 

Unless you can change leap direction mid-flight (basically, the character would "home in" on the enemy a la Disturbance ball) and you gain control *exactly* the moment the character's feet touch the ground (right now there's a very noticeable delay), the root is absolutely necessary. Otherwise it's almost like having Force Speed root you for a second (cartoon dashing animation mental images), and only then provide the burst of speed. Or root you for half a sec when it ends.

 

So let's fix the leap being useless by making root immunity useless (on a squishy class that needs it to kite, mind)? Let's fix one thing by breaking another!

 

You can keep the root on charge--all I'm asking for is for the root to properly respect root immunity LOL. Which, due to rubberbanding, it does not presently.

 

How about we actually require some skill on the part of the leaper instead? As in, don't immediately blow the leap and wait until something else causes the sage to sprint instead, and leap after the root immunity is gone? Or save a CC and use it to hold our "sprint" still--bonus points if you're a jugg with Force Push that even lets you leap again?

 

We're everyone's free kill, everyone likes the 12k crits on us, so waiting until we use our sprint for something else won't take long

[Helig]

We're everyone's free kill, everyone likes the 12k crits on us, so waiting until we use our sprint for something else won't take long

 

Stop wearing PvE gear. I hit properly geared enemies for 12k Smash only under Bloodthirst+Expertise powerup, on a power-maxed character with purple augments.

 

Also, as I said before, on my Sorc character Warriors aren't usually a big problem. I usually run a Madness hybrid (or full Madness), positioning being my main strategy (every time I see a Sorc just standing in the open and casting, I want to strike him down myself), and the only enemies I'm legitimately worried about are good stealthers. Now then, I don't play Sorc in the Arena, for obvious reasons, but Arena isn't the center of PvP in this game - nor it's an objective measuring stick for overall class performance/potential. OWPvP and 8v8s provide much greater tactical freedom, which allows a Sorc to use their potential at its fullest.

 

But I do think that Egress/Fadeout should be baseline, and the shield debuff should actually do something other than annoy you (like passive 10% damage resistance on the Sorc/Sage personally or something).

 

Also, every class suffers from rubberbanding. Sages/Sorcs aren't unique, beautiful snowflakes.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Helig

[AdrianDmitruk]

Stop wearing PvE gear. I hit properly geared enemies for 12k Smash only under Bloodthirst+Expertise powerup, on a power-maxed character with purple augments.

 

Also, as I said before, on my Sorc character Warriors aren't usually a big problem. I usually run a Madness hybrid (or full Madness), positioning being my main strategy (every time I see a Sorc just standing in the open and casting, I want to strike him down myself), and the only enemies I'm legitimately worried about are good stealthers. Now then, I don't play Sorc in the Arena, for obvious reasons, but Arena isn't the center of PvP in this game - nor it's an objective measuring stick for overall class performance/potential. OWPvP and 8v8s provide much greater tactical freedom, which allows a Sorc to use their potential at its fullest.

 

But I do think that Egress/Fadeout should be baseline, and the shield debuff should actually do something other than annoy you (like passive 10% damage resistance on the Sorc/Sage personally or something).

 

Also, every class suffers from rubberbanding. Sages/Sorcs aren't unique, beautiful snowflakes.

 

I personally don't wear PVE gear (unless it'll bolster to 2018 expertise), but my point was more that everyone and his mom looks to jump on sorcs in hopes of getting one that does wear PVE gear. We're fodder for the server record threads, "Biggest Hit" category.

 

Now for all my participation in this thread, you might think I'm one of those facetanking sorcs who dies 10 times in a match, but truth be told I run the old bubblestun heal spec because it's the build that best embodies H2F and Make Them Pay. Half the reason why I heal is just to get access to Fadeout (and the cleanse on physical slows/roots in Sith Purity) so I can actually **** when I need to. Nevertheless I find the thought that I must eat smashmonkey attacks because attempting to **** before the smash results in the monkey magically teleporting me back for 9-10k damage, 100% of the time, appalling. Just as you find leaping to the top ramp only to fall into the pit in Huttball appalling (yes, I know, as I also have a defense guardian).

 

If we actually have the skill to dodge incoming AOE damage, on principle we should dodge it, not simply get rubberbanded back to eat it. But when the rubberbanding happens 100% of the time you activate your escape during a leap/inc smash, it's not a bug it's a feature intended to help derpmonkeys not miss their precious smashes. And being forced to eat some keyturning derp's 9k smash simply because bioware coded that a leap will return the target to the destination if the target breaks the root is simply ****ed up.

 

I would love to play a full 36 point build but until the Combat Team either separates arenas from 8v8 in normal queue, allows an arena spec and 8v8 spec, or (horrors!) buffs the full 36 point spec i am pigeonholed into bubblestun as the CC Makes Them Pay while I H2F (something full 36 point corruption utterly lacks). Until then, I hardly feel I'm out of line advocating for a FIX to our escapability, let alone a buff to our class. Yay Mercs finally got their buff after 2 years, DPS ops got their buff after 2 years, but sorcs are STILL left to suffer from 1.2 (and the pushback "buffs" only went to the DPS specs, corruption seems to be the red headed step child of sorc builds when discussing balance/needed buffs for some reason).

[terzappi]

Every time people see sage/sorc healer start to pray. So, as sage healer, It's quitly embarassing.

 

Dear devs,

are you planning to do something or our class it will remain a punch ball - class?

[Ghost_Spectre]

Every time people see sage/sorc healer start to pray. So, as sage healer, It's quitly embarassing.

 

Dear devs,

are you planning to do something or our class it will remain a punch ball - class?

The Dev's response to you question is as follows:

Working as intended.

[AdmiralParmesan]

They either aren't aware of the class's problems or don't care. I'm not sure which is worse

[Loki_]

If you dont like being abused as a sage / sorc healer play the stun bubble hybrid melee soon get pissed of with being stunned every time they attack you then all you have to do is LOS ranged ..

[ZooMzy]

If you dont like being abused as a sage / sorc healer play the stun bubble hybrid melee soon get pissed of with being stunned every time they attack you then all you have to do is LOS ranged ..

 

Don't forget about H2F and make them pay.

[AdrianDmitruk]

If you dont like being abused as a sage / sorc healer play the stun bubble hybrid melee soon get pissed of with being stunned every time they attack you then all you have to do is LOS ranged ..

 

Don't forget about H2F and make them pay.

 

Yes that's kind of the point of the bubblestun hybrid...well that and pissing off Bioware's metrics people too

[Razortron]

Just delete your sorc now and roll an op if ya wanna keep playing because Bioware love them!