Shadow PVE DPS buff.

[Sarafain]

There's a Low Slash thread on the Assassin forums about making it useful for PvE. The problem is is you reduce it's cost by 66% is that it becomes OP in PvP as it's not just a way to proc Duplicity/Infiltration tactics it's also a pretty good stun. It's not a fix if you change an ability and it breaks PvP.

 

IMO There are 2 major problems with the spec/class. 1- talents provide a TON of bonus surge to attacks but only 9% increase to melee. 2. Low proc rates - 30% to get a duplicity proc, 25% to get a stack of Breaching Shadows/Static Charge, this means RNG can give us some TERRIBLE dps.

[SalvorHardin]

The force cost of Low Slash is not a problem in PvP... How many times do you run out of force in warzones? You leave combat so much, you (almost) always have Blackout handy.

[Sarafain]

It's not the warzone that matters it's killing the current target. Having 20 extra force to do it with is pretty big!

[Aelanis]

From my calculations, a simple way to bring Infiltration on par with top DPS classes (not including smugglers/agents) would be to simply change Force Synergy to 12% crit chance bonus and 12 seconds duration AND lower force cost of Low Slash to 10. This way, we can actually use it in the rotation (without Shadow's Respite) during the 3 GCDs between 2 Projects, and it still takes skills to use well.

 

Those 2 changes would give a 5-10% sustained DPS boost without affecting burst potential (especially for PvP).

 

For Balance, I haven't done any simulation yet but if the change on Force Synergy is not enough, I can't see any "easy fix". The thing I would like to see for Balance is a PBAoE Force Breach so that Lambaste can be actually useful and an addition to Lambaste in order to reduce Whirling Blow's force cost. Also a new skill (instead of Mental Defense) that would give melee attacks on a target affected by Sever Force a X% chance to grant [skill], making the next Shadow Strike free and not respecting Global Cooldown with a Y seconds limit rate

 

Are you sure those calculations would really result in that much of an increase? A 3% crit chance increase on effectively half our damage would be (with ~70% surge) around a 1% increase in damage. You're thinking that adding Low Slash -> Shadow Strike into the rotation on cooldown is going to add 4-9% damage? I think that's awfully generous. It's, on average, a ~1000 damage increase (based on M-Knightrider's 'honorable mention' parse, and using average damage for what his slow slash should be) over using 2 Clairvoyant Strikes. If he had used Low Slash on cooldown (unlikely, due to breach mechanics), he would have used it 18 times for 18,000 more damage, or a ~1.7% dps increase (~60 dps). Together, that's almost a 3% dps increase.

 

Now, if you were talking about making Force Synergy grant 12% to melee and force additionally, then you'd be talking about an increase of the order you were talking about. But if you wanted to do that, an even simpler change would be to increase the crit chance of Breach with each stack of Breaching Shadows (25-33% per stack) to make it an auto-crit, reduce the damage slightly, and give the Potent Shadows skill a buff to a Potency enhanced Breach to keep that damage at where it is now. That, with no damage decrease to Breach, buffs damage by ~11%, reduces our extreme dependence on crit, and makes the spec far less susceptible to poor RNG.

 

EDIT: Edited for grammar.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Aelanis

[SalvorHardin]

I think you're missing the point of Low Slash. The point is to proc Infiltration Tactics more often. And no, I'm not thinking about spamming it on cooldown as it would result in a DPS loss because that would delay Breaching Shadow stacking and risks Clairvoyance to fallout. It could only be used effectively during Infiltration Tactics inner cooldown AND during a 3 GCDs window between 2 Projects. Basically, both Low Slash and Shadow Strike would replace a Saber Strike if thrown at the right moment.

 

As for Force Synergy, the 3% increase is all the more important due to the increase output of Shadow Strikes, but mainly, putting the duration to 12 seconds grants a fairly better uptime (close to 100% actually). About my calculation, despite it being a bit raw at the time (didn't account for amor and perforation), the range of values is certainly correct.

 

Giving the Force Synergy bonus to Force abilities as well would be OP because of the surge bonus on Force Breach and Project I believe.

[Aelanis]

I think you're missing the point of Low Slash. The point is to proc Infiltration Tactics more often. And no, I'm not thinking about spamming it on cooldown as it would result in a DPS loss because that would delay Breaching Shadow stacking and risks Clairvoyance to fallout. It could only be used effectively during Infiltration Tactics inner cooldown AND during a 3 GCDs window between 2 Projects. Basically, both Low Slash and Shadow Strike would replace a Saber Strike if thrown at the right moment.

 

As for Force Synergy, the 3% increase is all the more important due to the increase output of Shadow Strikes, but mainly, putting the duration to 12 seconds grants a fairly better uptime (close to 100% actually). About my calculation, despite it being a bit raw at the time (didn't account for amor and perforation), the range of values is certainly correct.

 

Giving the Force Synergy bonus to Force abilities as well would be OP because of the surge bonus on Force Breach and Project I believe.

 

I'm aware of what you meant with the extra Low Slash usage, but I took an absolute best case scenario: it never interfering with Breach, though it should never risk Clairvoyance falling off, at least not until execute range.

 

As for the extra crit chance, it still wouldn't be enough of an increase to damage. 5% is awfully generous for the increase, and 10% is way too high. Boss armor is a pretty serious hit to the damage Shadow Strike deals, so not accounting for that could have produced numbers that would be higher. That is, unless I'm missing something. Could you share your math so I can see for myself? If you want, I can post the math I did to come to my conclusion.

[Evolixe]

Just did something fancy tonight

 

http://www.twitch.tv/exilove/c/3718641

[JasonNH]

Just did something fancy tonight

 

http://www.twitch.tv/exilove/c/3718641

 

That was great, thanks for posting it.

[Evolixe]

My pleasure

[SalvorHardin]

I'm aware of what you meant with the extra Low Slash usage, but I took an absolute best case scenario: it never interfering with Breach, though it should never risk Clairvoyance falling off, at least not until execute range.

 

Agreed. This is actually the reason I came up with this idea: to make the (long) middle part of Infiltration fight less boring and not just a slowly DPS downfall. At 30%, there are/can be so many things to do that using Low Slash would be playing with fire.

 

As for the extra crit chance, it still wouldn't be enough of an increase to damage. 5% is awfully generous for the increase, and 10% is way too high. Boss armor is a pretty serious hit to the damage Shadow Strike deals, so not accounting for that could have produced numbers that would be higher. That is, unless I'm missing something. Could you share your math so I can see for myself? If you want, I can post the math I did to come to my conclusion.

 

I can't "share" the math because I use a simulation spreadsheet that I made. But I can tell you that there are only 3 things that I didn't account for at this point: accuracy (assuming 100%), alacrity (assuming 0) and proc relics. I changed the simulation to factor in armor and penetration and used another parse (3.5K). Now what you must know is that I'm using theoratical crit values and never the ones from the parse.

 

Anyway, the net DPS gain from Force Synergy alone is about 1.3% and goes up to 2% the more Shadow Strike you add with the Low Slash modification. Which brings me to the net gain that comes from bonus uses of Low Slash+Shadow Strike in a 4:30 minutes fight (including Force Syngery bonus):

 

5 LS+SS: 3.1%

10 LS+SS: 4.8%

15 LS+SS: 6.5%

20 LS+SS: 8.11%

 

With a 1% margin depending on gear (72 to 78), Low Slash replacing one Saber Strike and Shadow Strike replacing one Clairvoyant Strike (which makes up for Force cost).

 

And it can be explained fairly easily. Here are the basic and crit damage values (post armor reduction) of Saber Strike, Clairvoyant Strike, Low Slash and Shadow Strike:

 

Saber Strike (3hits): 1570 - 2750 (*0.9 to account for basic ability accuracy)

Clairvoyant Strike (2hits): 2932 - 5127

Low Slash: 2055 - 3593

Shadow Strike: 5016 - 10273

 

Assuming a basic crit chance of 25%, here is what you get for an average hit:

 

Skill average damage per activation: Acc*(BaseHit*(1-CritChance-ForceSynergy-SetBonus)+CritHit*(CritChance+ForceSynergy+SetBonus))

 

Saber Strike: 0.9*(1570*(1-0.25-0.12)+2750*(0.25+0.12))=1806

Clairvoyant Strike: 2932*(1-0.25-0.12-0.15)+5127*(0.25+0.12+0.15)=4073

 

Low Slash: 2055*(1-0.25-0.12)+3593*(0.25+0.12)=2624 => 818 damage gain

Shadow Stike: 5016*(1-0.25-0.12)+10273*(0.25+0.12)=6961 => 2888 damage gain

 

That's a 3.7k damage increase everytime you use the combo, for the exact same Force cost.

Edited February 14, 2014 by SalvorHardin

[Aelanis]

Ah, that makes a lot more sense. I was replacing double Clairvoyant Strike with the combo. I guess with the far lower force cost on Low Slash, it would make more sense to replace that wimpy Saber Strike, even if it does gain 3 force back per use. That would explain why I thought it was so low .

[SalvorHardin]

I imagined a Force cost of 10 because it precisely gives the same Force usage: Clarivoyant Strike (-23) and Saber Strike (+3) cost 20, like the LS+SS combo I'm suggesting ^^

[Sarafain]

@SalvorHardin - it seems liek you're saying you want Low Slash as part of a PvE dps rotation as it gives you a controlled Infil Tactic's proc and increasing it's energy efficiency will result in a effective fix.

 

I think I advocated this at first but then changed my mind for a couple reasons;

 

Any buff to this ability - whether Energy reduction or Damage increase is a Pretty big buff to PvP. So much so that Pvper's will start asking for a nerf. You'd need to add what others have posted about "refunds X energy if target isn't stunned".

 

I'd like to get rid of the CS spam. With bad RNG you could end up having to cast it 6 out of 8/9 GCD's. We already have a VERY priority based rotation, fitting it in 3 GCD's between Project and at the same time maintaining force. Adding the need to use Low Slash in the rotation to maximize dps takes more then skill, you have like .5 seconds to decide what of 4/5 abilities to use next. On paper it's an easy DPS increase, in practice something different.

 

Low slash already procs Infil Tactics and I'm sure everyone takes advantage of that during increased DPS phases. Really what adding Low Slash as part of the rotation is because RNG of Infil Shadow is bad. Many players have mentioned, and i agree that we need increased proc chances for improved dps rather then ability changes.

[Aelanis]

@SalvorHardin - it seems liek you're saying you want Low Slash as part of a PvE dps rotation as it gives you a controlled Infil Tactic's proc and increasing it's energy efficiency will result in a effective fix.

 

I think I advocated this at first but then changed my mind for a couple reasons;

 

Any buff to this ability - whether Energy reduction or Damage increase is a Pretty big buff to PvP. So much so that Pvper's will start asking for a nerf. You'd need to add what others have posted about "refunds X energy if target isn't stunned".

 

I'd like to get rid of the CS spam. With bad RNG you could end up having to cast it 6 out of 8/9 GCD's. We already have a VERY priority based rotation, fitting it in 3 GCD's between Project and at the same time maintaining force. Adding the need to use Low Slash in the rotation to maximize dps takes more then skill, you have like .5 seconds to decide what of 4/5 abilities to use next. On paper it's an easy DPS increase, in practice something different.

 

Low slash already procs Infil Tactics and I'm sure everyone takes advantage of that during increased DPS phases. Really what adding Low Slash as part of the rotation is because RNG of Infil Shadow is bad. Many players have mentioned, and i agree that we need increased proc chances for improved dps rather then ability changes.

 

On the note of increasing Technique Proc rate, damage scales impressively with the increase multiplier. At double proc rate (50%), damage from Shadow Technique alone doubled, increasing damage by a staggering 11%. I would be totally okay with it doing half damage with a doubled proc rate. I don't think I'd be okay with it building stacks until Shadow Technique activates, though. Shadow Technique already builds stacks of something else, we don't need layered stacks to keep track of when we already have to keep track of 2 sets of stacks and a proc. Is it doable? Yes. Would it be elegant or practical? Absolutely not.

[SalvorHardin]

@SalvorHardin - it seems liek you're saying you want Low Slash as part of a PvE dps rotation as it gives you a controlled Infil Tactic's proc and increasing it's energy efficiency will result in a effective fix.

 

I think I advocated this at first but then changed my mind for a couple reasons;

 

Any buff to this ability - whether Energy reduction or Damage increase is a Pretty big buff to PvP. So much so that Pvper's will start asking for a nerf. You'd need to add what others have posted about "refunds X energy if target isn't stunned".

 

I'm not talking about a damage increase for Low Slash, just a Force cost reduction. I do not believe it would change the face of PvP. First because whenever I play Infiltration in WZ, I very rarely find myself out of Force or at least not to the point of going "man I wish I had enough Force to throw a Low Slash here"... it just never happens. And also because the change I'm suggesting doesn't give a better burst. The opening burst doesn't change one bit.

 

I'm not sure I understand the part about refunding energy though ^^'

 

I'd like to get rid of the CS spam. With bad RNG you could end up having to cast it 6 out of 8/9 GCD's. We already have a VERY priority based rotation, fitting it in 3 GCD's between Project and at the same time maintaining force. Adding the need to use Low Slash in the rotation to maximize dps takes more then skill, you have like .5 seconds to decide what of 4/5 abilities to use next. On paper it's an easy DPS increase, in practice something different.

 

Frankly, I don't want to dumb down the spec. To me, it is the hardest to pull off right now and I love it... I just wish we could at least be on par with everyone else. This change to Low Slash wouldn't actually make the rotation harder, but it would reward skilled players more. And it doesn't take THAT much skill. There would be only 2 conditions to make sure it's worth it, as I said: Infiltration Tactics on cooldown AND using Low Slash in the 1st or 2nd GCD between 2 Projects (when we have 3 GCDs... so not after using Force Breach). The real hard part would be trying to use Low Slash in the 30% phase during which it's already easy to get carried away with Spinning Strike and let Clarivoyance fall off.

 

Low slash already procs Infil Tactics and I'm sure everyone takes advantage of that during increased DPS phases. Really what adding Low Slash as part of the rotation is because RNG of Infil Shadow is bad. Many players have mentioned, and i agree that we need increased proc chances for improved dps rather then ability changes.

 

Anyway, chances are the combat team has plans already to get rid of "proccing problems" for Shadows, as they did with Vigilance Guardians and in 2.7 for Telekinetic Sages. Heavy proc specs are getting "fixed" so what I'm suggesting will most likely never happen

[Evolixe]

I'm not talking about a damage increase for Low Slash, just a Force cost reduction. I do not believe it would change the face of PvP. First because whenever I play Infiltration in WZ, I very rarely find myself out of Force or at least not to the point of going "man I wish I had enough Force to throw a Low Slash here"... it just never happens.

 

Does happen in arenas actually, but to be fair with you, we could use the added force and it wouldn't be OP.

[Sarafain]

I'll take Evo's opinion on it not being OP in PvP, but I'd expect some nerf threads as it's still 1 extra attacks worth of energy. That makes the "Low Slash refunds 20 energy if target is not stunned" point irrelevant.

 

In terms of rotation it really plays with energy regen. Using a Low Slash in place of and energy gain hit means we have to compensate elsewhere. Not to mention if we don't use it in an optimal place and get stuck with Tactic's buff up for a couple GCD's we're loosing out on the proc Tactics buff. Yes it's up on a seperate CD but you can't have 2 up. So what's the chance you'll loose the Tactic's proc because you have the Low Slach one up already?

 

The reason I keep saying buff proc chance of Tactics to 45% and leave the ICD at 9 seconds is that it eliminates much of the RNG. 30% is less then 1 in 3, so it should proc 1 in 4 attacks. Lets say the 4th attack proc's it because of RNG, so that's 6 seconds as GCD is 1.5; now add the 9 second ICD. 15 seconds for 1 proc cycle. that means you get 4 a minute. It's a VERY rough breakdown. Best case scenario would have Tactic's proc 7 times in 1 min.

 

Aelanis atm I wouldn't buff shadow technique, or if so no more then 5%. I don't want a set rotation, I like the current complexity of it. It'd be nice if they did a follow up more frequently on how classes are doing.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Sarafain

[Eclipzed]

I'm near full BIS... 78MH, 4-set... only missing a DF Implant, relic and a BIS enhancement. Done 5/5 DF/DP HM 8man. Highest parse was 3545 on 500k Ops dummy with armor debuff. Couple of weeks ago, I used to parse over 3400dps on 1mil dummy on a good run, with adrenals. But otherwise, 3300 to 3400dps. Since upgrading a couple of enhancements and a relic in the last couple of weeks, my parsing has dropped. I struggle to get over 3200dps now. I've put in over 8 hours on the dummy, even comparing with hybrid and balance specs which I'm familiar with. Trying slightly different rotation priorities, analysing combat logs in detail etc... I'm very particularly on rotation priority and maximising on everything from Shadow Strikes with Force Synergy to using a Saber Strike during Shadows Respite to maximise on force regeneration. I'm often finding Shadow Strike and Spinning Strike are scoring low on crit percentages in parses. Some runs, below 20%. (Crit 29%, Surge 74%, Accuracy 100.07%). Occasionally I'II get a parse with Shadow Strike crit above 40%, which is where I'd expect with current crit and force synergy buff use), but never something like some of the parses with 60..70% crit. I've pushed my crit rating to 708, without better results.

 

I don't know what has changed in the last couple of weeks... but I've dropped near 200dps in the last couple of weeks on the Ops dummy, despite getting a bit more gear. Has anyone else experienced this? Has their been a stealth nerf?

 

Some PvE Boss fights can be difficult for shadow with the class constraints. Shadow Strike is our big damage dealer, but we are handicapped in it's use. Try taking down an add you have threat on. Take the Brontes fight, trying to kill your finger so you can get on to the healers finger next. Not only is it a slog on DPS to kill your own, but as soon as you start on the healers, you get threat straight away on that too. Then mechanics on some fights, such Draxus, makes it additionally difficult when the adds bug your Shadow Strike out. I think the dispatchers target one player to the next, but spin around 345 degrees instead of 15% to the next player to cancel the Shadow Strike. But I still have trouble Shadow Striking some of the Bulwarks, particularly with the one at the south. Would be nice if force stun and low slash actually worked for adds in boss fights to enable the Shadow... to Shadow. Most fights, I see the sentinel leaping around, where I can't keep up with a 15 second CD... force speed out to Kephass, run back to Brontes. Force speed out to a finger, run back. Force speed with concussion mine, run all the way back to the adds. I think for all the effort, difficult in rotation, and constraints... Infiltration spec shouldn't be on the bottom of the DPS, particularly for single target.

 

I'm getting wary of putting in such a big effort on my Shadow to maintain my raid group position. But when the commando in the group gets his mainhand and starts boasting about now over 3700 on the 1mil dummy, you question if you're now letting the raid group down. It's bad enough not having AOE's to boost raid figures. But if the Shadow doesn't excel at single target DPS, the burst is short lived and the priority rotation difficult... Bioware are making us an underdog, shadowed by a low DPS reputation. Getting tired of it, particularly quite puzzled why my DPS has dropped unexpectedly.

[Prototypemind]

I think for all the effort, difficult in rotation, and constraints... Infiltration spec shouldn't be on the bottom of the DPS, particularly for single target.

 

I'm getting wary of putting in such a big effort on my Shadow to maintain my raid group position. But when the commando in the group gets his mainhand and starts boasting about now over 3700 on the 1mil dummy, you question if you're now letting the raid group down. It's bad enough not having AOE's to boost raid figures. But if the Shadow doesn't excel at single target DPS, the burst is short lived and the priority rotation difficult... Bioware are making us an underdog, shadowed by a low DPS reputation. Getting tired of it, particularly quite puzzled why my DPS has dropped unexpectedly.

 

This is the main issue I've brought up. It's out of sorts that a class that brings no raid-wide utility except the ability to perhaps be able to stealth rez if all conditions are right and is dedicated entirely to damage is not able to produce damage on par with or better than classes who aid the entire group, especially considering the attention to detail to make sure that procs aren't missed or wasted.

 

I responded similarly in another thread elsewhere that if indeed, HM/NiM weren't relegated to DPS races against enrage timers at times and instead focused on the group pulling off all the right mechanics, then it would be somewhat less of a deal. As it is now that isn't the case, though, and being behind in the DPS game does limit a player's viability in group content. A pure DPS spec should not be handicapped and unable to content in a DPS race.

 

The 10% set bonus buff is a lame fix, or even a PvE vs PvP change ala Smash 2.7, but something needs to happen. I by far have more fun DPSing with my Sin over my Mara and Sniper despite only starting to run Deception recently, and it's a letdown not to be able to get the most out of my play no matter how tight my rotations are.

[Evolixe]

This is the main issue I've brought up. It's out of sorts that a class that brings no raid-wide utility except the ability to perhaps be able to stealth rez if all conditions are right and is dedicated entirely to damage is not able to produce damage on par with or better than classes who aid the entire group, especially considering the attention to detail to make sure that procs aren't missed or wasted.

 

I responded similarly in another thread elsewhere that if indeed, HM/NiM weren't relegated to DPS races against enrage timers at times and instead focused on the group pulling off all the right mechanics, then it would be somewhat less of a deal. As it is now that isn't the case, though, and being behind in the DPS game does limit a player's viability in group content. A pure DPS spec should not be handicapped and unable to content in a DPS race.

 

The 10% set bonus buff is a lame fix, or even a PvE vs PvP change ala Smash 2.7, but something needs to happen. I by far have more fun DPSing with my Sin over my Mara and Sniper despite only starting to run Deception recently, and it's a letdown not to be able to get the most out of my play no matter how tight my rotations are.

 

Sure, but it would work flawlessly untill a better solution has been found. And it wouldn't **** anything up.

 

But I honestly don't think we lack raid utility. Not at all. As a matter of fact, my group is pretty much unable to do brontes NiM without me around because of how the last phase works.

 

You have so much utility, you just need to be creative about it.

[SalvorHardin]

I've been going back and forth as to how they can fix Infiltration sustained damage without breaking PvP... The first thing would be to stop that idiotic x% chance to PROC + rate limit. BW is fixing it for every class it seems so our turn will come eventually. Anyway, this wouldn't be enough as Infiltration's damage output can vary so much from crit chances on both Force Breach and Shadow Strike. Force Breach's crit chance is somewhat manageable with Force Potency, except that I would change this skill so that it gives 100% crit chance on the next Force attack (tired of wasting charges because of sheer bad luck).

 

As for Shadow Strike, I'm thinking the easy fix would be that Infiltration Tactics gives Shadow Strike a 100% crit chance on non-player targets (+ 100% proc chance from Double Strike, Clarivoyant Strike and Spinning Strike only with 7.5 sec limit rate).

 

Because it's quite obvious that the real problem about the Shadow is its signature ability: Shadow Strike. It's the reason why they moved Infiltration Tactics so that full Balance couldn't use it and it's the reason they can't come up with a PvE fix for Infiltration without making the spec OP in PvP.

 

Speaking of Balance, instead of Mental Defense (tier 7), I'd like to see a Balance equivalent of Infiltration Tactics: a PROC that makes your next Shadow Strike free and auto-crit on non-players (but no base damage bonus).

 

Full version of this can be found here

Edited March 16, 2014 by SalvorHardin

[Eclipzed]

Could you guys run a 1mil dummy parse to see if your DPS has lost near 200 off what you normally get?

I still cannot account for why my regular parsess have dropped so much in the last couple of weeks.

[Prototypemind]

Sure, but it would work flawlessly untill a better solution has been found. And it wouldn't **** anything up.

 

But I honestly don't think we lack raid utility. Not at all. As a matter of fact, my group is pretty much unable to do brontes NiM without me around because of how the last phase works.

 

You have so much utility, you just need to be creative about it.

 

By utility I refer to raid wide assistance, such as the Sniper's shield or armor debuff, or more notably, Maras bringing increased damage bursts for the entire group. I certainly don't mean our class is useless, just saying pretty much everything we do is self-serving, as as such we should have a higher focused damage output over time when we're about our business and manage our abilities correctly.

 

I do agree that that 10% damage buff on the set bonus is the easiest fix.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Prototypemind

[Evolixe]

By utility I refer to raid wide assistance, such as the Sniper's shield or armor debuff, or more notably, Maras bringing increased damage bursts for the entire group. I certainly don't mean our class is useless, just saying pretty much everything we do is self-serving, as as such we should have a higher focused damage output over time when we're about our business and manage our abilities correctly.

 

I do agree that that 10% damage buff on the set bonus is the easiest fix.

 

We have taunts and stealth rezzes.. gunslingers have shields and sentinels have inspiration..

 

I don't see the problem. We shouldn't be getting more than we have, as it's already more than most other classes do.

[Evolixe]

Could you guys run a 1mil dummy parse to see if your DPS has lost near 200 off what you normally get?

I still cannot account for why my regular parsess have dropped so much in the last couple of weeks.

 

Still doing 3500's.