Aurbere Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 We're talking pre-Ritual Kun right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Anyway moving on with this....Vader and Kun right? Well as I noted, both have shown powers the other hasn't displayed and both have surpassed one another. (Though for Vader it's just cause he doesn't have access, but even still). So....I guess were gonna have to look see who surpasses who at what and go from there or? But anyway, must be off to go do some stuff so bbl folks! C ya Wolf and you make a good point here. Both have done something the other cant, but for Vader it was his suite limiting him not his "power".... though its still questionable if that technically counts as his "power" being less because of the suite. Thats a big debate to be had with no real answer i think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 We're talking pre-Ritual Kun right? Yes because Post-ritual was dead if i am not mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 C ya Wolf and you make a good point here. Both have done something the other cant, but for Vader it was his suite limiting him not his "power".... though its still questionable if that technically counts as his "power" being less because of the suite. Thats a big debate to be had with no real answer i think. Did Palpatine not say that Vader's limits were mental? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Yes because Post-ritual was dead if i am not mistaken. I don't think he died right away. I would have to get my copy of the series, or you can ask Rayla. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) We're talking pre-Ritual Kun right?Pre-ritual 1. Because we lack any feats on Kun post-ritual and because 2. sources conflict concerning whether he consumed the power of the Massassi warriors, then performed the ritual/became a Force entity, or in the process of consuming their power his body broke free of its corporeal form. So it seems best to go with Kun pre-ritual I feel. Edited February 3, 2014 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Did Palpatine not say that Vader's limits were mental? He did, but i believe he was talking about at that time Vader's inability to move the way he used to or that he at the begginning was weaker then he was as Anakin, he got passed those, but I am not sure all of his limits were only in his head as Palp's did see others who now had more potential so clearly Vaders potential wasnt there any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Pre-ritual 1. Because we lack any feats on Kun post-ritual and because 2. sources conflict concerning whether he consumed the power of the Massassi warriors, then performed the ritual/became a Force entity, or in the process of consuming their power his body broke free of its corporeal form. So it seems best to go with Kun pre-ritual I feel. My thoughts as well. Still, it's best to clear that up before we go into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 He did, but i believe he was talking about at that time Vader's inability to move the way he used to or that he at the begginning was weaker then he was as Anakin, he got passed those, but I am not sure all of his limits were only in his head as Palp's did see others who now had more potential so clearly Vaders potential wasnt there any more. Well we do know Vader grew more powerful as time went on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) Exar Kun is superior, and after having read numerous new sources such as the Dark Side Sourcebook, the Tales of the Jedi Sourcebook and the New Essential Guide to Characters I've been waiting for an apt moment to express why: Beforehand all feats accomplished by his spirit were dismissed completely but I have learnt through numerous sources that Exar Kun could not call upon the Temples surrounding him to sustain his spirit, in-fact he was starving when awakened and that is why he Force Drained Gantoris to death. Exar Kun was also limited in what techniques he could use because of his state but it is stated blatantly that everything he used were techniques he learnt during his time alive, he didn't learn anything new and he was considerably weaker in this form.. "Kun was furious when he realised that he was stuck here on this planet, all the time mastering new spells and magicks to smash the Jedi Order and the Republic himself were now useless trapped in this form, he could barely use any of his power here, he had no more Massassi to drain for sustenance and he could not touch the Dark energies of the Temples he had built, he would be trapped down in his tomb for millennia." Given that explanation, the techniques Kun used as a spirit remain valid, now that we have that cleared up, I shall make my argument. As far as Telekinesis goes, let's remind ourselves of what happened to Corran Horn, the first time Kun revealed himself fully: Kun flicked a finger at me, sending me whirling across the courtyard. I tried to gather the Force around me to protect myself, but the shock at my error kept me from it. I slammed into an obsidian wall and heard a bone in my right forearm crack. I clutched the limb to my chest, but Kun spun me again, smashing my flank into a low wall. Ribs crunched with that impact and I felt something inside go, as well. Kun was enjoying himself, probably for the first time in millennia, the very thought of which made me vomit. Kun's laughter echoed through his stronghold as he pitched me around, dancing me and rolling me back and forth across the courtyard. I thought his actions were haphazard, especially when he lifted me into the air, then dashed me down, shattering my left leg, but even through the pain I had a clarity of mind. He wanted me thinking, not dead, yet, and that made my stomach roll again. Eventually, like a child tiring of a toy, he let me go. I slumped to my side and involuntarily flinched as his shade came to cover me. "Just because you never saw me affect the material world, it doesn't mean I couldn't. and even if it is something of an effort to do so, here, in my stronghold, it is a pleasure beyond your's that are possible." Take note that at this time he was severely weakened and not even close to the apex of his power as a spirit. The Jedi appeared before him united in their cause, Ulic paused, six? no... maybe a dozen Knights stood in his way, he did not think to count, but Exar brushed past him, placed out his hand and smashed them with the Force, a wave of energy that incapacitated them all. The apprentice then had realised that a stun field nor even defeating the greatest lightsaber duellist in the Order were the apex of his Master's power. Truly Exar Kun had surpassed him in all ways. Ulic Qel-Droma realises he is no match for a Sith that can successfully Force Wave an entire group of Jedi Knights with ease. Kun was hit with a Force Push that felt like he'd been directly slammed in the chest with a star cruiser, but he ignored the pain, flipped over and used the Force Crush technique to kill the ancient Jedi Master on the spot, something that Urr had not seen even from the Ancient Sith Lords, he then realised that this Fallen Jedi was the new apex of the Sith, easily able to ignore any defences a Jedi could mount. ]His Force Crush technique was not something even an Ancient Jedi Master could defend against. How about Force Lightning? well after draining Gantoris for his Force Energy and whilst possessing Kyp Durron he didn't actually use his power, instead he was draining the Force Energy from him, using his own power and that is how the following happened: "With the Sun Crusher looming behind him, Kyp stretched out both hands and blasted Luke with lightning bolts like black cracks in the Force. Dark tendrils rose up from gaps in the temple flagstones, fanged, illusory vipers that struck at him from all sides. The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into Luke's body. He thrashed, but felt helpless." Incredibly powerful gouts of Sith Lightning that were apparently amped with Sith Sorcery. The Force Blast also seems to be far more interesting than we first thought, every time Kun unleashed a smaller blast and then followed up straight afterwards the blast got more powerful, each time he did this the blast got more and more powerful until it could obliterate living beings and even spirits, it was basically getting stronger each progressive time he used it, though this had to be sustained. Exar Kun was also highly proficient in Dark Rage, the gauntlet he wore helped him to concentrate and channel his hate, for a time, then it lost it's edge, but it taught him two things, how to use his Force Blast technique more easily and how to channel his rage easily, eventually he didn't need the gauntlet at all as he stated it had lost it's usage when talking with Ulic Qel-Droma. Kun was now deep in his hatred, he felt a maelstrom of Dark energy swirling around inside him and he channelled all of his rage into one blow, it hit with such destructive force that Vodo's staff was utterly blown into charred pieces of wood. When the Dark Lord found his attempts wanting and his emotions boiled over, he would snap into a rage, channelling his power one hundred thousand times more than any he would normally ever attempted, but Kun was a cunning warrior and he knew when to bottle up his white hot hatred until the opportune time came to totally destroy his opponents. His rage was devastating but also extremely advanced, clearly he could pretty much annihilate anything when flung into a rage and the scary thing is, he knows when to use it. Now I would also like to point out that only two times has anyone been able to attack Exar Kun successfully with the Force, one was an ancient Jedi Master listed in the Tales of the Jedi Sourcebook as one of the most powerful Jedi Masters that lived in the Old Republic era and the other was the spirit of Freedon Nadd, whom later on was obliterated with a Force Blast that almost collapsed his Beskar made Sith temple. "Exar Kun once the most powerful and dangerous of all the Dark Lords of the Sith in the Old Republic, he was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the Rise of the Empire" Here is a statement in direct contention with the SWTOR:E's statement that the Sith Emperor was the most powerful of all time up until that point, which reinforces my belief that the Ancient Sith chose him not just to bring about a new Golden Age of the Sith but in the hopes that he would destroy the Emperor and foil his plans. I personally believe Kun is definitely Vader's superior. Edited February 3, 2014 by LadyKulvax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 But, but, but, but..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 Here is a statement in direct contention with the SWTOR:E's statement that the Sith Emperor was the most powerful of all time up until that point, which reinforces my belief that the Ancient Sith chose him not just to bring about a new Golden Age of the Sith but in the hopes that he would destroy the Emperor and foil his plans. I personally believe Kun is definitely Vader's superior.Considering that the SWTORE is post-Kun, it overrides that statement. The fact that is says "once" reinforces this even more. Remembering that the Sith Emperor did not exist then either, but know he does, and Kun has been replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) Considering that the SWTORE is post-Kun, it overrides that statement. The fact that is says "once" reinforces this even more. Remembering that the Sith Emperor did not exist then either, but know he does, and Kun has been replaced. He died and ceased being a Sith Lord, because he's dead.... so yeh he was once the most powerful. Also, remember that we continue to support Sidious' statements regardless of the fact that the Sith Emperor doesn't exist then either. This works the same way, a source states that Exar Kun when he was alive was the most powerful Sith lord up to that point, the Sith Emperor lived during that time. All the other sources that state Sidious is most powerful of all time is still sourced despite the fact that the Sith Emperor didn't exist in canon then either, which I wholly support. The SWTOR:E does not nullify that statement as it is not a continuation, it's an encyclopedia for the SWTOR game. EDIT: I am not saying either of these statements nullifies each other, just that there is a contention there. Edited February 3, 2014 by LadyKulvax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 So much for making an argument for Vader. /concede Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 But, but, but, but..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) He died and ceased being a Sith Lord, because he's dead.... so yeh he was once the most powerful. Also, remember that we continue to support Sidious' statements regardless of the fact that the Sith Emperor doesn't exist then either. This works the same way, a source states that Exar Kun when he was alive was the most powerful Sith lord up to that point, the Sith Emperor lived during that time. All the other sources that state Sidious is most powerful of all time is still sourced despite the fact that the Sith Emperor didn't exist in canon then either, which I wholly support. The SWTOR:E does not nullify that statement as it is not a continuation, it's an encyclopedia for the SWTOR game. EDIT: I am not saying either of these statements nullifies each other, just that there is a contention there.All that means is that after Exar Kun's death, the Sith Emperor surpassed him. That's around four centuries later, quite a lot of time to catch up... Again remembering that the Sith Emperor didn't exist in Star Wars lore until then, so really its a retcon, but because the Sith Emperor's claim is made in the context of the Great War period, after Exar Kun's death, he beats Kun. The only reason that Sidious can still lay claim to his title is because he, like the Sith Emperor, reached the pinnacle of his power after the latters death. Its simply a passing on of the title from person to person. P.S. The SWTORE just like all other sourcebooks is made in the context of its time, these sourcebooks are not exempt from time, else we'd be debating a contention between the Sith Emperor's and Sidious' claim. Edited February 3, 2014 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Given that explanation, the techniques Kun used as a spirit remain valid, now that we have that cleared up, I shall make my argument. There goes one of my personal theories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 All that means is that after Exar Kun's death, the Sith Emperor surpassed him. That's around four centuries later, quite a lot of time to catch up... Again remembering that the Sith Emperor didn't exist in Star Wars lore until then, so really its a retcon, but because the Sith Emperor's claim is made in the context of the Great War period, after Exar Kun's death, he beats Kun. The only reason that Sidious can still lay claim to his title is because he, like the Sith Emperor, reached the pinnacle of his power after the latters death. Its simply a passing on of the title from person to person. Fair enough, that is a much more logical way of putting it. (Doesn't mean I won't make some contentions later. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Fair enough, that is a much more logical way of putting it. (Doesn't mean I won't make some contentions later. ) Please do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 (Doesn't mean I won't make some contentions later. )Please do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) So I'm guessing Vader just got a royal booting off of the list then? (Yet his metallic behind may be recovered with the next article.) Edited February 3, 2014 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 An Olympics ad? You fiend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 So I'm guessing Vader just got a royal booting off of the list then? (Yet his metallic behind may be recovered with the next article.) So it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 An Olympics ad? You fiend!Bah! You no have adblock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Bah! You no have adblock? Nope. It's fine though. I keep them for movie/game trailer ads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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