Tanks and Implants

[Vodamin]

I dont know what BioWare was thinking, but tanks dont really need accuracy for tanking! Yes, BioWare, you heard it first from me.

Now, can you explain whta is the logic behind the tanking implants for vanguards/guardians/shadows (Ultimate commendations vendor)?

They all have Accuracy - absolutely useless stat for tanks. The only way a tank can get a decent Implant is from Nerfa Hard mode. Well guess what, we have killed this boss like 5 or 6 times already, and it drops only f******* BELTS! NOt a single implant token.

[Docmal]

Yes it is difficult to get tank implants. However, up until this gear level BiS tank implants were crafted which made them super easy to get. So I guess it all washes out in the end anyway.

 

Oh and also, every HM boss has a chance to drop Oriconion MK-2 tank implants which are very nice and do not have accuracy or alacrity

Edited January 25, 2014 by Docmal

[MillionsKNives]

Pretty much all comm gear for tanks are horrible. Mods are wrong, enhancements are wrong, implants are wrong. Even ignoring the bad stat distribution on the mods and enhancements, the only defense you can get from the comm stuff is on the belt and bracers.

 

It's rather ridiculous how they continue to short tanks on comm gear.

[Vodamin]

Pretty much all comm gear for tanks are horrible. Mods are wrong, enhancements are wrong, implants are wrong. Even ignoring the bad stat distribution on the mods and enhancements, the only defense you can get from the comm stuff is on the belt and bracers.

 

It's rather ridiculous how they continue to short tanks on comm gear.

 

Yes, I forgot about this one. I had to spend a lot of ultimate comms for belts and wrists just so I can have some defense rating on the rest of my gear. Absolutely ridiculous.

[Docmal]

Yes, I forgot about this one. I had to spend a lot of ultimate comms for belts and wrists just so I can have some defense rating on the rest of my gear. Absolutely ridiculous.

 

And you still go the crappy mod...

Edited January 25, 2014 by Docmal

[Prototypemind]

*que Morpheus*

 

Welcome... to the End Game.

 

That's how it works. If you want the BiS stuff, you have to take on the content to get it. I felt the same when I first started into all this, dealing with the silliness of it, but if you want it you grind it out, which means you keep playing. There's also the accomplishment you gain from making it through.

 

Being realistic though, it's not horrid that you do have to earn some of the best gear in the game the hardest of ways, is it? SM Comm runs are easy money after a point, so consider it an extra challenge for yourself to have to take on content to get what you want.

[Vodamin]

@Prototypemind, I agree yes, but the thing is that Ultimate commendations implants are not even BiS with their stats that are right now, and while the rest of the classes have implants with at least useful (but not perfectly distributed) stats, we the tanks have totaly useless implants in this specific vendor.

 

My stats http://i.imgur.com/cBNXOe8.jpg

You can see even with underworld implants I have almost perfect stats on my pve guardian.

I dont need them to tank HMs, its just feel stupid...

[MillionsKNives]

*que Morpheus*

 

Welcome... to the End Game.

 

That's how it works. If you want the BiS stuff, you have to take on the content to get it. I felt the same when I first started into all this, dealing with the silliness of it, but if you want it you grind it out, which means you keep playing. There's also the accomplishment you gain from making it through.

 

Being realistic though, it's not horrid that you do have to earn some of the best gear in the game the hardest of ways, is it? SM Comm runs are easy money after a point, so consider it an extra challenge for yourself to have to take on content to get what you want.

 

What's crappy is that DPS and Healers get much better return for their comms than tanks do. Mods are BIS for DPS and healers, implants are actually useful, and mix and matching can get you the correct stats you need (even if they're not BIS) from the enhancements. None of this is true for tanks.

[GreenLantern]

Makes me sad when people say that Tanks don't need accuracy. Even worse that this community is brainwashed by this sentiment. Keep gimping yourself tho.

[MillionsKNives]

Makes me sad when people say that Tanks don't need accuracy. Even worse that this community is brainwashed by this sentiment. Keep gimping yourself tho.

 

Yeah, making sure that my attacks (which already do more threat than I need, with zero accuracy) hit is so much better than getting more shield (which helps keep me alive). I can totally see what you mean.

Edited January 25, 2014 by MillionsKNives

[akabane_k]

Makes me sad when people say that Tanks don't need accuracy. Even worse that this community is brainwashed by this sentiment. Keep gimping yourself tho.

 

yea, im going to give up a mitigation stat so that a tank can do slightly more dps. Real good tradeoff there.

[GreenLantern]

Yeah, no point in being an effective tank at the cost of a couple % of defense or absorption.

[akabane_k]

Yeah, no point in being an effective tank at the cost of a couple % of defense or absorption.

 

If you cant hold agro with guard and 3 taunts in your opening rotation, you are doing something wrong.

[GreenLantern]

If you cant hold agro with guard and 3 taunts in your opening rotation, you are doing something wrong.

 

If you have to taunt in your opening rotation then you're bad lolol. And guard doesn't exactly do a whole lot in 16 man raids with 10 DPS that aren't muppets.

Edited January 25, 2014 by GreenLantern

[Delta_V]

If you have to taunt in your opening rotation then you're bad lolol. And guard doesn't exactly do a whole lot in 16 man raids with 10 DPS that aren't muppets.

 

And I know plenty of tanks that can hold threat w/out taunts with zero accuracy on their gear... so yeah, go ahead and keep gimping your mitigation and making yourself harder to heal - I'm sure your healers just love that.

[GreenLantern]

And I know plenty of tanks that can hold threat w/out taunts with zero accuracy on their gear... so yeah, go ahead and keep gimping your mitigation and making yourself harder to heal - I'm sure your healers just love that.

 

Let me know when they can hold threat with World ranked DPS, pre-pull flybys and relic swaps on the boss, then you start preaching to me about how good you think your friends are. And maybe go check out a DR curve and see just how "Gimped" my mitigation is.

[MillionsKNives]

Yeah, no point in being an effective tank at the cost of a couple % of defense or absorption.

 

You'd think someone who supposedly plays with world ranked DPS would know that you sacrifice shield not defense or absorb to take accuracy.

Edited January 25, 2014 by MillionsKNives

[GreenLantern]

You'd think someone who supposedly plays with world ranked DPS would know that you sacrifice shield not defense or absorb to take accuracy.

Oops, you're right. Had my stats mixed up.

[Tsillah]

Makes me sad when people say that Tanks don't need accuracy. Even worse that this community is brainwashed by this sentiment. Keep gimping yourself tho.

 

It's not brainwashing. People have tested this out and the simple reality is that nowadays it's better to invest in your defensive stats than in accuracy. The few misses you have with your hits do not weigh up against the loss of secondary stats.

 

Accuracy isn't bad for tanks as such, but it's better to get something else.

 

Part of the problem lies in the enhancements. DPS and healer gear have 3 grades of enhancements. The worst one has the highest endurance, and one of the two other stats is the lowest. The 3rd stat is the same on all three. So for example Endurance + power + accuracy. The worst one has high endurance and low power. The middle one has a bit less endurance and more power and the best one has even less endurance and higher power again.

 

Tanks do NOT have 3 steps available They only have the low end and middle one. This means that gear with ultimate commendations will always have low end enhancements and dps/heal get middle grade enhancements. This means more endurance and less defensive stat points to divide on your tank.

 

So where you need defence, shield and absorb for damage mitigaton. Accuracy is the less important 4th stat. Just like alacrity is for healers and crit for dps nowadays. Except the healers and dps get more points to dividide amongst them just the same.

 

Also the mods for heal/dps give more secondary stat points (power or crit) and less endurance and tank gear again has higher endurance and less absorb or defense.

 

As augments don't help because you cannot have endurance and shield on one augment for example.

 

All of this means that tanks are basically forced to take more endurance and have a smaller pool of secondary stat points. Something just had to give way.

 

Now if you have full 78 gear on your juggernaut tank for example and you have 20% defense, 40% shield and 30% absorb and can then spare a few points to be added in accuracy, then by all means. But the calculations I've seen also here on the forums do indicate that you want those stats in the right place before adding anything to accuracy as accuracy in the total picture is less beneficial than the defense stats.

 

Again, it's not that accuracy is bad or useless. It's just less useful thant the other stats and that's why tanks generally have abandoned accuracy at least till the point where they can afford a little of it from their point pool.

[GreenLantern]

Of course the math is always going to say that more mitigation is better...how could it not. Yet these sims fail to take into account actual gameplay scenarios other than a simple patchwerk encounter.

 

The math does not take into account that you can easily whiff a force sweep, slow time, and force breach and take 5-10% additional damage for 9-15 seconds depending on skill or you can whiff an ion pulse and instead of building stacks for Energy blast, you are trying to reapply 5% Damage reduction debuff.(Luckily, resource generation abilities still gen resources on a miss) The sims don't take into account missing on stock strike or high impact bolt hurts your up time on energy blast as both HIB/SS/Hammer shot and Ion jolts are liable to miss. This effect is even more noticable since Power screen's 1.5 second cooldown limit is on a separate timer for shielding an attack and triggering ion cell.

 

It doesn't account for pre pull dps strategies that stress threat gain to the limit in order to maximize raidwide DPS. And of course, never dismiss a tank's dps.

 

I've never been an advocate of gearing accuracy immediately, as #1 priority obviously is to get your gear in a position to be able to survive, but to say that accuracy doesn't contribute to your survival and the survival of your raid as a whole in a large way is nonsense.

 

The value of accuracy is consistency. You KNOW how much threat you are going to generate, you KNOW your debuffs are going to stay up, and you KNOW you aren't going to have to blow a taunt prior to a crucial timing because you whiffed a guardian slash.

Edited January 26, 2014 by GreenLantern

[akabane_k]

you are forgetting there are 2 tanks in a raid. Example-jug and sin. Both apply acc debuff. Theres is a .36% that both miss, and shadow has a 30 sec duration with 6 sec cd, so that won't fall off, pt has a acc debuff cd, so that cant miss. Even if it a dmg debuff without a pt or anni mara, there is a 6% chance for wither to fail. If you apply wither on cd, 30 times in a fight, it will miss 1.8 times on average. Leaving a gap of 6 seconds out of 300, or 2% downtime , compared to 97% acc where you miss .9 times on average. 1% downtime difference on 5% dmg is .05% dmg increase.

 

For pt railshot, its a 15 sec cd, so 20 times on average per fight. 20*(.97-.94)=.6 times more misses. That means you lose a grand total of .6 sec uptime over an entire fight. Other gains are similarly insignificant.

 

And you dont get consistency unless you get 100% acc, which makes you lose around 8% shield. I say again, not worth it.

 

But keep doing whatever you do; clearly you are right, and pretty much all the tanks that do progression are wrong.

[GreenLantern]

you are forgetting there are 2 tanks in a raid. Example-jug and sin. Both apply acc debuff. Theres is a .36% that both miss, and shadow has a 30 sec duration with 6 sec cd, so that won't fall off, pt has a acc debuff cd, so that cant miss. Even if it a dmg debuff without a pt or anni mara, there is a 6% chance for wither to fail. If you apply wither on cd, 30 times in a fight, it will miss 1.8 times on average. Leaving a gap of 6 seconds out of 300, or 2% downtime , compared to 97% acc where you miss .9 times on average. 1% downtime difference on 5% dmg is .05% dmg increase.

 

For pt railshot, its a 15 sec cd, so 20 times on average per fight. 20*(.97-.94)=.6 times more misses. That means you lose a grand total of .6 sec uptime over an entire fight. Other gains are similarly insignificant.

 

And you dont get consistency unless you get 100% acc, which makes you lose around 8% shield. I say again, not worth it.

 

But keep doing whatever you do; clearly you are right, and pretty much all the tanks that do progression are wrong.

 

People make the exact same argument you just did about not using accuracy as dps. I sure am glad we didn't listen to them. And to poke holes in that cute little math stuff you just did there, this game doesn't use PseudoRNG. It uses real RNG, which means your averages aren't viable because there are no boss fights that are long enough to actually have a viable sample size. I prefer to take the RNG out of it at the small cost of ~3% overall DR.

 

And I am one of those tanks doing progression.

Edited January 26, 2014 by GreenLantern

[morfius]

Tanking and gear is better said... only role with totally useless stat in commendation gear.

I think BW sole idea was to force tanks to grind at least twice more content because role is less desirable.

On seeing that I simply stopped doing GF content on my tanks and limited PuGing with them to situation when guild members are not enough to fill the group.

Even regeared and respec 1 of them to pure DPS.

And I hope all tanks do it... then BW will have 2 options... dissolve trinity or stop punishing players because they play less wanted role.

 

Those who stack accuracy as tanks ... are no better than those that stack endurance.

Current state of the game accuracy and alacrity have no use for tanking.

Hybrids / dps in tank gear / tank in DPS gear & so on are not point of discussion.

Edited January 27, 2014 by morfius