Icebergy Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 I am seriously shocked that people are having such a hard time grasping this, but I guess I will elaborate. First off, stuns do not increase threat of death, they only increase annoyance. You can plan around them, and really nothing in this game is all that threatening even with the stuns. Second, I am not complaining about groups with a stun/knockback or two. And I am not complaining about knockbacks/stuns that can be interrupted. I am complaining about stuff like the first pull of Chasing the Shadow (Black Hole Republic H4). In that pull, several of the mobs have stuns, and two of the mobs have both a knockback and a pull. They will knock you away from them, and then pull you right back, and then stun you for good measure. There are several other spots in the game similar to it as well. That pull and ones like it are NOT FUN. I do not enjoy it and I want them to stop developing pulls like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starglitter Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I am seriously shocked that people are having such a hard time grasping this, but I guess I will elaborate. First off, stuns do not increase threat of death, they only increase annoyance. You can plan around them, and really nothing in this game is all that threatening even with the stuns. Second, I am not complaining about groups with a stun/knockback or two. And I am not complaining about knockbacks/stuns that can be interrupted. I am complaining about stuff like the first pull of Chasing the Shadow (Black Hole Republic H4). In that pull, several of the mobs have stuns, and two of the mobs have both a knockback and a pull. They will knock you away from them, and then pull you right back, and then stun you for good measure. There are several other spots in the game similar to it as well. That pull and ones like it are NOT FUN. I do not enjoy it and I want them to stop developing pulls like that. Mmm... Actually I don't have an issue with that in general, my issue is that the treatment of CC is binary in this game, either it automaticlaly works or the mob is immune. What I am asking is to let shades of grey in the chance of a CC to take effect, I would really like to see CC have a variety as to a chance of it taking effect, and it would be even better if the magnitude of the CC was also not fixed but variable. So if a low very low level mob say level 5 tried to stun your Level 55 all level 78 geared alt (which should be extremely rare, not 100% automatic success as is now), the effect would last extremely briefly and not its full duration; conversely if a level 55 mob Ccs a level 5 player, it wwould b enext to impossible for the player to avoid the effect and the effect would also last much longer than had the 55 creature CCd another level 55 creature. I contend getting rid of the binary CC system, would open-up many other avenues at doing group missions, FP, and OPS as opposed to: "You stand here and mash this and only this button, while hey you, you need to stand over there and when the red circle appears, you mash this button and only this button... Do note that my request cuts both ways, not asking to dummy down mobs only, what is good for the goose is good for the gander... Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebergy Posted February 7, 2014 Author Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) I just soloed the new Kuat Drives FP and one of the gold difficulty robots knocked me back, then pulled me back to him, and then knocked me back again. My health never dropped below 80%, I was in no danger of dying, all it did is make me annoyed and force me to watch my character get thrown around for ~5 seconds instead of being able to actually PLAY my character. This is the kind of stuff I want them to stop developing. Edited February 7, 2014 by Icebergy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOLANX Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) Icepops, Cidanel i imagine is either a Healer or rDPS if not a flat out troll. when soloing he likely has a tank comp to take the Pulls, Knockbacks and stuns, when in group, there is a tank to take the punishment. since he cant feel our Pain, he has nothing constructive to add to the topic. my main is a sin tank, my second a Van tank, i know your pain. I dont think all NPC Pulls and knockback and CCs should be removed, but perhaps each NPC should only have either a pull, Knockback, or CC. and perhaps the CCs should break early on damage. also a resolve meter that works in PVE if you want to add more difficulty perhaps they could add Slows to more NPC attacks, EX: as with the Vanguard skill NPCs, that use ion cell could get a slow attached to ion cell procs. Edited February 8, 2014 by GOLANX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebergy Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 I agree Golanx, I am not asking for them to be removed completely. I am just tired of there being pulls where 4+ of them get cast in a row. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prototypemind Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Just seems silly at a point. We're supposed to be some of the most powerful, able characters in our galaxy, yet any little thing can catch and ragdoll us. Even a better chance to avoid some of these attacks would be nice and give a little more variety in some of the fights. There are some where it does actually make for a challenge though, such as soloing any of the Dread Commanders on Oricon, but even there it can be tedious. I actually do feel they've used an interesting blend for the new KDY final fights, a blend of AoEs, the muuuuch easier to see conals, and spread out pulls, stuns, and knockbacks. Those fights do become a little tedious in their length, but they aren't too bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepdarksoul Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I must admit, I didn't read all of this thread but, I do know your pain. Especially in Chasing The Shadow in Black Hole. I can solo this with my 55 Sage, as Qyzen takes the brunt of it all and I just keep him healed. Tried to solo this once with my Van Tank with Elara and it was an epic fail. Even with another 50-55 with me, when 4 of the NPC gold stars are pulling/knockback, it is very annoying trying to accomplish much of anything with your character other than being a meat shield to absorb damage while others play their character and accomplish the objective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebergy Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 it is very annoying trying to accomplish much of anything with your character other than being a meat shield to absorb damage while others play their character and accomplish the objective. This is the exact problem. Other people get to play their characters, but you do not because you are being constantly thrown around. Bioware I hope you read this and realize how annoying this is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsbount Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Well, i see the only one solution here. Everytime you get knocked or stunned, player must recieve buff, that protect from stun/knock for 15 or 20 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebergy Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 Well, i see the only one solution here. Everytime you get knocked or stunned, player must recieve buff, that protect from stun/knock for 15 or 20 seconds. Although I personally would not have an issue with that, it would mess up PvP. The real solution is that they do a better job of designing groups of mobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebergy Posted April 15, 2014 Author Share Posted April 15, 2014 I am very disappointed to see that this incredibly poor mob design has continued into the new tactical FPs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starglitter Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Mmm... Here I am Darth Nox, the epidemy of the empire in power and prestige, according to class story... Yet wherever I go, everything slows me, knocks me around, stuns me, and I am a Darth? Really? If SWTOR had its rule set, I could easily imagine a gang of JAWAS kicking Darth Vader's bunns, with stun after stun, till he finally wore out, realistic? not even remotely! The issue is not with having stuns, slows, and knockdowns, the issue is the pseudo-binary approach to it: Either it works or does not. I used the word "pseudo" because that is not even balanced, its entirely arbitrary. All mobs effects on the player are automatically a hit and affect, unresistable. Effects by players on mobs, well the weak ones get the player treatment, others get the immunity card. Really, its just incomplete programming or thinking this through, either way, it was fine for an entry position, but the need to evolve this into something more adequate is truly needed. The answer is to remove the binary effect accross the board, and enforce a "What is good for the goose, is good for the gander" approach. That means no boss or creature is immune from player effects, after all some effects are class signature abilities, why arbitrarely disable them? Challenge, is the most common excuse I usually hear, but that is unacceptable, challenge can be created via innovative thinking and creativity as opposed to simply create challenge via essentially cheating by breaking the rules (having mobs play in God-Mode or derivatives of it). In basic scenario design, yu assign a 50/50 chance for an effect to take hold or fizzle, that balance can then me modified by the difference of experience between the opponents, gearing benefits, and some natural afffinity or resistance to effects. Most games, have historically assigned a 5% differential per level difference, which goes both ways but only accounted once (You don't penalize a victim, and give a bonus to the attacker at the same time, no double scoring). So a player trying to stun a creature that is 5 levels lower than herself would result with the creature having a 25% penalty to their save roll. Now gear such as armor could provide adjustments to resistance in the form of armor, or penalties on resistance rolls in the case of weapons. Take a Sorcereress trying to stun a mob of the same level as the Sorceress, she has a +5% to stunn Saber and the creature is wearing armor that is insulated and provides 15% resistance to stun; the creatures saving roll would actually have a 10% bonus to its save for a statistical chance of 60%. Normally in game gear modifiers tends to not exceed 10%, but very rare and legendary stuff could approach 20%. Now resistances bonuses tend to be between 5% and 20%, so a normal creature has 0% bonus, a LT has 5% resistance, a Boss - Gold has 10% resistance, a generic platinum has 15% and named boss platinum has 20% resistance that is innate. Now lets roll it up together and do numbers... Arcadia the Sorceress is wearing level 180 armor which has 15% resistance to effects, and has a level 180 main hand which gives 15% bonus to effects, and an off-hand which is also level 180 and also provides 15% bonus effects. Arcadia is level 55 and is taking on Darth Bioware who is a level 55 named platinum boss, Bioware has boss armor granting 20% resistance to effects, and is a named boss so he has another 20% innate resistance to effects, and attacks with a wicked scythe that gives him a +20% bonus to effects (effectively a 20% penalty to victim's resistance roll), so Aecadia tries to interrupt Bioware, how impudent of her! now what is the percent chance for Bioware to resist the interrupt effect, they both have the same level so no modifier for level differential, Arcadia has two items that fives her a redundant set of 15% bonuses, so only one applies, thus Bioware is now at -15% to his saving roll, but Bioware has a +20 gear set, which tilts the scales to +5% to his roll and then he is a named platinum boss which gives him another 20% chance, so the scales are now tilted by 25%; therefore Bioware's saving roll is 75%. Now Bioware decides to stun Arcadia, he has a +20% item and he is a named boss for another 20% effect bonus for a total of 40% penalty to Arcadia's saving roll, Arcadia has armor that protects her for 15%, so effectively Arcadia is at -25% chance to resist, which results with a 50 - 25% penalty of 25% chance to avoid being stunned. There could be other modifiers to this rolls for example the players will and cunning should contribute to a saving roll versus mental based attacks, while strength and agility contributes against physically based attacks, Once more I would suggest that statistics be limited to a 20% max for resistance purposes, while I discourage the use of statistics for penalties to resist roles. I believe if status effects can be actually found in different shades of grey and true to both the player and mob alike, it will add a new kind complexity to the game and encourage different approaches on how to do things, by making the recipe book approach to OPS and FPs not so trustworthy or th eonly way to do things. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebergy Posted May 7, 2014 Author Share Posted May 7, 2014 Hopefully this will be addressed in whatever content is coming out in 2.9 and beyond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkamm Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 What they could do is put in a 5 or 10 sec immunity to stuns after you use you break ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebergy Posted May 8, 2014 Author Share Posted May 8, 2014 That is a possible solution, another is they could make resolve work vs NPCs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebergy Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 Hopefully this can make it into the plans for 2.10 or 3.0 or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebergy Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 Bump, the Rakghoul event reminded me how horribly annoying this is. Devs please don't let this awful mob design continue into 3.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oneirophrenia Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) Agreed. Using stun as a game design crutch to make content more challenging is really kind of sad. While their at it, stunlocking in WZs need fixing as well. Edited October 30, 2014 by Oneirophrenia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kissakias Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 NPCs have the right to defend themselfs as the players do /end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starglitter Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) NPCs have the right to defend themselfs as the players do /end I am with you on this, but if the NPCs powers are auto hit, always affect then so should the players; conversely if you are going ot make an NPC immune to effects so then should the players be immune to. It is not like any of us want to fight helpless NPCs, but we would rather have them provide us with legitimate challenges and not cheesy challenges instead, such as we are forced to be in a narrow bridge, the MOB can not be pushed aside, because a developer decided to make it challenging and thus it is immune to push, but alas the mob can push us all over the place with 100% effectiveness, we do not even have a chance to resist or avoid it, oh yeah, another cheesy form of challenge... Sue Ps: I want mobs to follow the same rules players does, just like we have to observe line of sight and they often do not; think of Toborro's droid, you are at the garden's upper side, you try to range attack the mob but the concrete bricks which covers a minute portion of the droid blocks you from seeing it (ha ha ha), but when the its time for the droid to attack you, oh yeah, what bricks? Edited October 31, 2014 by Starglitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebergy Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) NPCs have the right to defend themselfs as the players do /end NPCs don't have to worry about whether they enjoy the game or not, players do. Being constantly stunned by mobs is not fun gameplay. I'm not asking for the game to be made easier, as I have said many times in this thread, I am just asking for the game to be made more fun. Don't you want the game to be more fun? /end Edited October 31, 2014 by Icebergy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebergy Posted December 22, 2014 Author Share Posted December 22, 2014 I'm convinced that none of the combat designers of this game have ever played a tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 NPCs don't have to worry about whether they enjoy the game or not, players do. Can you imagine the QQ if NPCs were allowed to post on the forums? Nerf players! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebergy Posted December 23, 2014 Author Share Posted December 23, 2014 I would love to see one of the devs tank HM Manaan in the live stream and then tell me if they think its fun. The first boss starts out with very interesting mechanics and a great way to show off some skill and knowledge as a tank. Then at the end it turns into stand there chain stunned for 5mins while the DPS try to finish the boss and the healer tries to keep you alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JainiaDral Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 (edited) Rishi and Yavin are especially bad. The pirate mobs only apply a stun at the end of a fight, and it's the kind that only wears off if you take damage. But the fight's over, and your character stands there, head lolling and helpless for the next six seconds after combat has ended. Then there's the ridiculous durasteel punch on Yavin that sends you halfway across the map. Stuns and knockbacks have never been fun in gaming, but SWTOR takes them to whole new levels of absurdity and quantity. Just ugh. Edited December 24, 2014 by JainiaDral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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