A REASONED argument for joystick support (I know.... I know)

[LeGoonDuVegas]

Since GSF launched for subbies, there has been a hot debate over adding joystick/ gamepad support. I have looked at alot of objections to this request and it boils down to four points:

 

1. GSF is not a sim game, and should not be played like one
   
2. Adding controller support would divert developmental resources from more vital things
   
3. Controller support would give controller users an unfair advantage over keyboard/mouse users
   
4. I don't want to be forced to use a control setup that I don't like/ can't afford
   

 

I would like to address these in turn.

 

1. ANY game is a simulation of a given scenario under certain preconditions and rule sets (well.... maybe not golf. That one has me scratching my head. Maybe it is the exception that proves the rule). Therefore, I submit that GSF IS a sim, and that those of us who wish to play it as such should be allowed to. It isn't REAL starfighter combat, otherwise the participation requirements would be much more stringent than creating a Bioware account.

 

2. Much of the coding work to adapt the control scheme to a controller is already done at the OS level. This is called drivers. Most OS manufacturers offer the adaptation software to game developers for free. A pair of Bioware interns should be able to write up the patch for testing in a couple of weeks.

 

3 & 4. These two are actually tied together, and not only are they untrue, but hypocritical. Many who use this argument might find that using a keyboard and mouse is more intuitive and comfortable to them, but they are unsure of their actual skill. Fine. More power to them. We are not asking the developers to force them to use a controller, we are asking the developers to allow US to use a setup that we find more intuitive and comfortable. If you truly are highly skilled with a keyboard and mouse, then you should have no problem smoking a less skilled stick and throttle player. The folks who try throwing out these arguments simply don't want those of us who are having trouble with the current control scheme to be competitive. They say that is an "older minority" of players who want this. The subtext here is that the "older minority" of stick and throttle players have spent alot of years honing those stick and throttle skills, and the naysayers don't want to have to increase their own skills. I, personally, feel that this is an unintentional thumb in they eye of those who got their skills in the real world (shout out to all fighter pilots from an old grunt!)

Contrary to not wanting to give controller users an unfair advantage, it is trying to keep them at a disadvantage. Contrary to forcing keyboard and mouse users to use a setup they don't like, it is forcing US to use one that we don't like. And WE are in the wrong for asking for controller support?

Bottom line: If you don't want competition, then don't play competitively. If you are a hot hand on the keyboard and mouse, then support the request and PROVE you are a competitor.

[Sharee]

Controlling craft in GSF essentially boils down to controlling the position of a circle-shaped mouse cursor within a larger circle area.

 

There is no better way to control a mouse cursor than to use a mouse. (Just imagine trying to use Excel on a computer that has a joystick instead of a mouse)

 

Therefore, adding joystick support means adding an inferior control option that some players might use and put themselves at a disadvantge without even realizing it.

 

I am not against adding joystick support eventually if the devs can spare the time, i just don't see it as neccessary.

[LeGoonDuVegas]

I understand what you are saying, and I appreciate it. It is, however, a bit shy of my point, but that is understandable since I forgot to add in the arguments for a fixed aiming reticle option.

My point was that a skilled player will be competitive regardless of how they chose to control their game as long as it is a control setup that the individual finds intuitive and comfortable. NO setup is inferior if the PLAYER is skilled, and if that player likes competition, then that player should not mind someone else using what makes them competitive.

[Sharee]

Fixed reticle however is a much bigger matter than simply a question of drivers. It changes how the game is played.

 

For instance, it would make the whole sub-code of tracking penalties not work. A player with a fixed cursor would never suffer any tracking penalty, because his weapons would always fire straight forward. He would also be able to turn and fire his weapons at the same time without suffering any tracking penalties, and thus be much more accurate than a mouse player doing the same. How do you balance that? How do you balance weapon upgrades that increase firing arc? Those would be practically useless for the joystick player. Etc. etc. Its no longer a simple 'plug in another controller and let the driver handle it' matter.

 

Im not saying these issues couldn't be resolved somehow. But it's way beyond what two interns could fix in a couple of weeks.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Sharee

[Elly_Dawn]

personally i don't think Joystick support is a good idea anyway, it's way too limited, you'll still be reaching for your keyboard way way too often, do they even still make Joysticks anyway?..

Flight Stick (these i know they still make) support from my experience is clunky on this type of game, tried it on Freelancer with my Wingman Pro, and much preferred Mouse/Keyboard setup for this type of game, i'm verry picky about my Flight Stick controls, it works great in Flight and Mech Simulators, like Darkstar One and Mechwarrior, but not so well on shooters...

a gamepad is about the only thing i see that makes any kind of sense as you can use both sticks to climb, dive, bank, & roll and have your most used skills mapped to any of what is it normally now 10 buttons or so on a gamepad, and will feel natural to anyone that's played a 6-8th Gen. Console game i.e. Star Wars: Battlefront which is a 3rd person shooter even in it's Space Segments...

this is just my opinion based on my use of various controls and game types, some work for me some don't, like Flight Stick in Freelancer just does not feel or respond natural to me, and GSF feels heavily influenced by that series of games...

[Korithras]

As much as I would love joystick options, it doesn't work for this type of a flight combat sim. What I would like to see is the game go from windowed (fullscreen) to fullscreen mode and then back again automatically when entering and exiting a match, respectively. This only effects players like myself who operate with more than one monitor, but it is something that should be addressed imo.

[Elly_Dawn]

omg, i know right?.. if i panic and slam my cursor too far to the right (accidentally having DPI on 3 instead of 1), the cursor stays on the other screen and i can't climb or dive quickly cause the pointers on the other monitor clicking on the forums, until i'm all "oh yeah it's over there on that screen now", lol... yeah i'd like a way to bind the mouse to GSF (Monitor 1) when in that game mode, errant cursors are a bigger bane than other pilots sometimes... Edited January 24, 2014 by Elly_Dawn

[Gray_Stalker]

I have a great joystick. I was pretty let down by the fact that I cant use it. Also the long que times to play GS.. Now I am playing War Thunder with my joystick, que times are under a minute.

[LeGoonDuVegas]

Fixed reticle however is a much bigger matter than simply a question of drivers. It changes how the game is played.

 

For instance, it would make the whole sub-code of tracking penalties not work. A player with a fixed cursor would never suffer any tracking penalty, because his weapons would always fire straight forward. He would also be able to turn and fire his weapons at the same time without suffering any tracking penalties, and thus be much more accurate than a mouse player doing the same. How do you balance that? How do you balance weapon upgrades that increase firing arc? Those would be practically useless for the joystick player. Etc. etc. Its no longer a simple 'plug in another controller and let the driver handle it' matter.

 

Im not saying these issues couldn't be resolved somehow. But it's way beyond what two interns could fix in a couple of weeks.

 

I see what you are getting at there, and I really did not think of that. I am not saying that I want stick support now, but I would, at least like to hear from the developers that they are planning on patching it in sometime in the future. Maybe along with announcing a pod racing expansion.....

[hadoken]

I don't know why this even needs to be argued. A flight sim of any sort without joystick support is kinda crazy (even if it's 'inferior' to keyboard/mouse).

[LeGoonDuVegas]

personally i don't think Joystick support is a good idea anyway, it's way too limited, you'll still be reaching for your keyboard way way too often, do they even still make Joysticks anyway?..

...

 

I should have been more precise in my choice of terms. I am old, forgive me.

When I refer to a joystick, I am referring to a HOTAS device (that's hands on throttle and stick) and not an Atari 2600 type of controller. I would not be reaching for my keyboard, as my device has a programmable keyboard emulation mode where I can assign most, if not all, of my hotkeys to buttons on the stick or throttle. I would be reaching for my beer more often than my keyboard.

 

And yes, they do still make such things. They even make Atari controllers for misty eyed nostalgics like me.

[Mallorik]

First off, if youre one of the people who is still saying GSF wont work with a joystick because of the moving reticle don't read this post, after 3 months im tired of explaining locked reticles to you people.

 

And for the accuracy people, this game needs accuracy penalties because a monkey can put a cursor on a target and press the button, Maneuvering a ship while keeping the reticle on the target takes a bit more skill. The accuracy penalty exists because of the mouse controls, a locked reticle would not need the penalty.

 

And for the op.

 

#1) GSF is not a sim game, but it should and could be. Joystick support with a locked reticle when in joystick mode and map controls to pitch, yaw and roll. Game is fixed.

 

#2)I don't know who works on what at bioware, but I do believe that if they don't fix this game like I pointed out in #1 before its a year old GSF will have about as much new content as the space on rails game has.

 

#3) Joystick players do crush mouse players, but not because they use joysticks. They Have joysticks because they are good at and love these games, that is why they crush mouse players.

 

Think of light sabers and blasters, 2 troopers are fighting, one has a lightsaber the other has a blaster, the blaster is going to win every time, because a trooper cant use a light saber like it is supposed to be used.

 

My kill to death ratio is usually very high, I doubt it will go up using a js or game pad but I will still use one because it just feels right and it makes the game much more fun.

 

#4) I haven't seen anyone suggest removing mouse controls, people just want js support added. Also game pads are just as good and actually preferred by a lot of flight game people. And pads and sticks are very affordable nowdays. A Logitech extreme 3d pro is less than $30.

[Elly_Dawn]

lol, i just like being facetious when people use joystick instead of Flight Stick, as i too remember my one button Atari2600 Joystick from my childhood and my little 2 button 15pin PC Joystick from my first PC way back when i was playing the original Wing Commander before i ever got a decent Flight Stick... i recently found my old Wing Commander Blueprints and copy of Claw Marks from that a few weeks ago, good memories... well it was really my brothers game, but i played the hell out of it myself...

[Mallorik]

lol, i just like being facetious when people use joystick instead of Flight Stick, as i too remember my one button Atari2600 Joystick from my childhood and my little 2 button 15pin PC Joystick from my first PC way back when i was playing the original Wing Commander before i ever got a decent Flight Stick... i recently found my old Wing Commander Blueprints and copy of Claw Marks from that a few weeks ago, good memories... well it was really my brothers game, but i played the hell out of it myself...

 

All flight sticks are "joysticks" but all joysticks aren't flight sticks.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Mallorik

[Elly_Dawn]

All flight sticks are "joysticks" but all joysticks aren't flight sticks.

 

if you want to call a gear shift a throttle go right ahead but it doesn't make it so...

[Mallorik]

if you want to call a gear shift a throttle go right ahead but it doesn't make it so...

 

The term joystick comes from the stick used to fly a plane aka a flight stick. And that is so.

[Elly_Dawn]

only as a slang term, and yes i acknowledge it's even slang among pilots, and was originated by a pilot... i also know most kids now days won't even know what a gaming joystick is and equate it with a Flight Stick as the slang term suggests... but, it is still slang none the less, and therefore incorrect in the case of speaking of gaming peripherals... even though some manufactures and sellers list Flight Sticks as Joy Sticks, it's a misnomer...

[XavinNydek]

As much as I would love joystick options, it doesn't work for this type of a flight combat sim. What I would like to see is the game go from windowed (fullscreen) to fullscreen mode and then back again automatically when entering and exiting a match, respectively. This only effects players like myself who operate with more than one monitor, but it is something that should be addressed imo.

They should be able to put bounds on the cursor without changing the window mode. That's what FPSs do. Hell, it's what SWTOR does when you hold down a mouse button in the ground game and spin the camera. That said, since I set up a mouse mode with the cursor slowed to about 1/3 of what I have it at normally, I haven't had a problem with losing the cursor and my aiming has become much more accurate.

[XavinNydek]

First off, if youre one of the people who is still saying GSF wont work with a joystick because of the moving reticle don't read this post, after 3 months im tired of explaining locked reticles to you people.

Locked reticles flat out won't work in GSF. Tracking and accuracy is based on aiming somewhere other than the center. Turning speed is slow enough on all ships that you would have a very hard time aiming if the reticle was locked. Ships have turn inertia and would feel very sluggish if the reticle was locked. It's just not the way the game was designed.

 

You can do floating reticle with a gamepad, and I guess with a joystick, but I don't think that's what the joystick people will be happy with. You would just be crippling yourself, the mouse is always more precise.

[Mallorik]

only as a slang term, and yes i acknowledge it's even slang among pilots, and was originated by a pilot... i also know most kids now days won't even know what a gaming joystick is and equate it with a Flight Stick as the slang term suggests... but, it is still slang none the less, and therefore incorrect in the case of speaking of gaming peripherals... even though some manufactures and sellers list Flight Sticks as Joy Sticks, it's a misnomer...

 

Like I said before, ALL flight sticks are joysticks.

[Elly_Dawn]

lol, we're just debating proper terms and slang terms, and prolly derailing the thread at this point, we better let them get back on topic now...

[Mallorik]

Locked reticles flat out won't work in GSF. Tracking and accuracy is based on aiming somewhere other than the center. Turning speed is slow enough on all ships that you would have a very hard time aiming if the reticle was locked. Ships have turn inertia and would feel very sluggish if the reticle was locked. It's just not the way the game was designed.

 

You can do floating reticle with a gamepad, and I guess with a joystick, but I don't think that's what the joystick people will be happy with. You would just be crippling yourself, the mouse is always more precise.

 

Tracking accuracy is there because mouse targeting is too easy, and turn speed on ships would be fine, it would be harder to actualy fly and hit things with a locked reticle BUT THAT IS WHY YOU DONT NEED TRACKING ACCURACY.

 

If they need a use for tracking accuracy on a fixed reticle just make it effect the size of the reticle.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Mallorik