mr_sim Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 (edited) Ok so I got on the PTS tonight and managed to put in 3 GSF matches, which by the way is a lot for PTS and I knew that I would have to get as much out of each match as I could. Full disclosure I was not on 2.5 PTS so I do not have that as a comparison, so I am seeing bombers fresh with hints of 2.5 PTS rumors. Bombers myth 1: Bombers are skill less easy-mode vehicles. Bombers work just like Strikers(quell/pike) and GS they have 1 laser set and 2 secondary slots, it seems scouts are actually the oddball class. and just like everything else they have a shield slot and an engine slot. The important thing to know is that drones and mines are launched one from right click(missile) and the other from "weapon ability" keybind(default 1) so no weapon switching instead each secondary gets it's own key. After laying your drone or mine each launcher goes into a long cool-down(not tied together but individual cooldown) when you drop your one or two pets you basically become a slow heavy fighter that may or may not have proton torpedoes depending or your loadout. furthermore there is a 2 mine limit per type so there is a max of 4 and it takes a while to lay all 4. Lastly if a bomber has proton torpedoes it has only one pet type and can only deploy 2 of them. repair drones replace the active shield ability hyperspace beacons replace the active engine ability. So here's the deal killing a bomber is not so different form killing a GS take the right precautions and they are easy prey often easyer still as most bomber engine abilities do not do any kind of evasion. Bomber myth 2: The Mine layer is useless and a trap for any player who wastes requisition on it. Ho boy is that wrong. The mine layer is going to change the game big time, and At the moment is my preferred of the 2 craft. So this myth is based on how in 2.5 PTS the rail gun drones were apparently one shotting strikers, and bombers were declared overpowered by the player base. 2.6 bombers see them performing the way they should, kinda like porcupines you want to keep yourself back a bit but the drones don't move and my heavy lasers dispatched them very quickly and easily, also they are easy to see easyer than turrets I would say. As far as I know killing drones does not reset the cooldown on the bomber so if a drone is poorly placed such as in a vulnerable spot or with poor line of sight the drone has very little value to the bomber or his team. In fact vs mines, drones need to be so very carefully placed for max effect and protection where mines can be dropped very liberally since they move. This is what the mine layer does and how it will change the game: - mines utterly destroy drones. if you are in range of drones it's hilariously easy to kill them with mines. - my favorite change is mines are strong against stationary targets. you know like those pesky fighters who tuck in on the nodes and have an identity crisis and become turrets, yup they are now screwed if a mine layer shows up. - of course this same strength works against my favorite strat. I like to take my striker and hug a control point like paint in order to block the capture, I don't dare try to attack back till I have some friends nearby and I have stayed alive for minutes doing this against 3-4 fighters until my buddies showed up finally. I got crap for kills that match but we did win it. Fortunately for me there were no mine layers around I would have been so dead. Seriously I got all this from 3 matches, think about what we'll see come February. I for one welcome the bomber with great anticipation, even though I'll probably still be slumming it in my strike. I also believe the bomber will appeal well to ground game players who currently do not like GSF, and Full F2P access will attract a new kind of player what may not like the ground game. Edited January 19, 2014 by mr_sim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaivers Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 (edited) Ok so I got on the PTS tonight and managed to put in 3 GSF matches, which by the way is a lot for PTS and I knew that I would have to get as much out of each match as I could. Full disclosure I was not on 2.5 PTS so I do not have that as a comparison, so I am seeing bombers fresh with hints of 2.5 PTS rumors. Bombers myth 1: Bombers are skill less easy-mode vehicles. Bombers work just like Strikers(quell/pike) and GS they have 1 laser set and 2 secondary slots, it seems scouts are actually the oddball class. and just like everything else they have a shield slot and an engine slot. The important thing to know is that drones and mines are launched one from right click(missile) and the other from "weapon ability" keybind(default 1) so no weapon switching instead each secondary gets it's own key. After laying your drone or mine each launcher goes into a long cool-down(not tied together but individual cooldown) when you drop your one or two pets you basically become a slow heavy fighter that may or may not have proton torpedoes depending or your loadout. furthermore there is a 2 mine limit per type so there is a max of 4 and it takes a while to lay all 4. Lastly if a bomber has proton torpedoes it has only one pet type and can only deploy 2 of them. repair drones replace the active shield ability hyperspace beacons replace the active engine ability. So here's the deal killing a bomber is not so different form killing a GS take the right precautions and they are easy prey often easyer still as most bomber engine abilities do not do any kind of evasion. Bomber myth 2: The Mine layer is useless and a trap for any player who wastes requisition on it. Ho boy is that wrong. The mine layer is going to change the game big time, and At the moment is my preferred of the 2 craft. So this myth is based on how in 2.5 PTS the rail gun drones were apparently one shotting strikers, and bombers were declared overpowered by the player base. 2.6 bombers see them performing the way they should, kinda like porcupines you want to keep yourself back a bit but the drones don't move and my heavy lasers dispatched them very quickly and easily, also they are easy to see easyer than turrets I would say. As far as I know killing drones does not reset the cooldown on the bomber so if a drone is poorly placed such as in a vulnerable spot or with poor line of sight the drone has very little value to the bomber or his team. In fact vs mines, drones need to be so very carefully placed for max effect and protection where mines can be dropped very liberally since they move. This is what the mine layer does and how it will change the game: - mines utterly destroy drones. if you are in range of drones it's hilariously easy to kill them with mines. . I like the idea of mines, its the offensive drones that are the real issue. I'm also glad to hear that mines can be used to dislodge campers! In my personal opinion...of all the classes fighter bombers should be the oddball, as they are irl, and therein lies the problem. With the following loadout.... Primary: Forward Cannon Secondary: Damage Mines or Support Drones (Buff/Debuff) System: Turret for Damage (Burst Laser Cannon with Laser Guided Weapon System) or Turret for Support (Repair/Reload Laser Cannon with Laser Guided Repair System) ...a Dronecarrier can become a uber support (repair/reload) class OR a real fighter bomber (drops drone to weaken target/strengthen itself or a wingman, then takes out target with primary or system). This bomber can still set traps. ...a Minelayer can become an uber damage class via the tactical offensive use of mines and systems to attack targets (as per your examples) OR uber support by setting defensive minefields around itself while launching AOE repair rockets (like Kolto Bomb) at teammates from a distance. This bomber can also set traps. As they say, variety is the spice of life! Edited January 19, 2014 by Kaivers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharee Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 (edited) The limit for concussion, ion, and seeker mines is 3, not 2. So a minelayer can actually put down up to 6 mines at a time, depending on loadout. 2-3 seeker mines kill a scout(depending on setup, 882 damage per mine). The drone carrier also can have 3 mines up (seeker) The minelayer can also drop 2 mines simultaneously, and if he drops seismic (593 hull damage) and intedriction (330 hull damage+100 hull damage/6 seconds) he will kill all scouts within detonation radius(2000m) almost instantly. Edited January 19, 2014 by Sharee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verain Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 (edited) The minelayer can also drop 2 mines simultaneously, and if he drops seismic (593 hull damage) and intedriction (330 hull damage+100 hull damage/6 seconds) he will kill all scouts within detonation radius(2000m) almost instantly. Gods, I can't wait, that sounds so good. Something the scouts can't just evade/miss/dodge/boost/distortion/immune. And since a bomber can't CATCH a scout, the scout will have to come to the bomber to get punished like that. It even punishes burst laser cannon! Edited January 19, 2014 by Verain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharee Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Gods, I can't wait, that sounds so good. Something the scouts can't just evade/miss/dodge/boost/distortion/immune. And since a bomber can't CATCH a scout, the scout will have to come to the bomber to get punished like that. It even punishes burst laser cannon! If you think the good pilots flying scouts is bad, wait until they all change to gunships to counter the bombers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verain Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 (edited) If you think the good pilots flying scouts is bad, wait until they all change to gunships to counter the bombers Gunships are a lot softer targets than scouts. Plus, it sounds like strikes will own the bombers pretty hard. The game right now is really suffering under the heavy hand of the flashfire, which couldn't be better if it had literally choice from ALL blasters, ALL systems, ALL missiles, ALL shields, ALL engines, and ALL secondary components (choose 4). It has the best blaster, the only two systems worth equipping, the top two missiles for ship like it, the best engine components, and the four top secondary components. They chew up strikes and can only die to a gunship if they are busy or distracted, and 4 out of 10 times the perfectly aimed shot does 0 to them and accomplishes nothing except warning them to go boost to a gunship now. Killing them does very little because their engines are so good- if you cap a scout at B, it's possible for him to be back before you have even finished converting the satellite. Goodness! Edited January 19, 2014 by Verain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharee Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Gunships are a lot softer targets than scouts. It won't matter. As soon as there are 3-4 good gunship pilots covering each other, all other craft will go up in smoke without being able to touch any of the GS. You'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_sim Posted January 19, 2014 Author Share Posted January 19, 2014 The limit for concussion, ion, and seeker mines is 3, not 2. So a minelayer can actually put down up to 6 mines at a time, depending on loadout. 2-3 seeker mines kill a scout(depending on setup, 882 damage per mine). The drone carrier also can have 3 mines up (seeker) The minelayer can also drop 2 mines simultaneously, and if he drops seismic (593 hull damage) and intedriction (330 hull damage+100 hull damage/6 seconds) he will kill all scouts within detonation radius(2000m) almost instantly. ummmm did you actually play on the PTS for 2.6? I'm not ready to call you wrong just yet. PTS has a fatal bug at the moment, and in 3 matches I spent half my time of each flying around not able to see any object that i could interact with. So all I could do was endlessly lay mines that apparently could still interact. I'm pretty sure the tool tip say 2 mine limit per mine type I'll have to jump in and recheck it. I didn't have any requisition to upgrade my mines either or try different types. However I am quite certain that as soon as you launch a mine it goes straight on cooldown never was I able to launch 2 of the same type at a time. So no according to my experience minelayer can only lay 4 mine shoals @ 2 mines at a time. furthermore the cooldown means that it takes something like half a minute to lay your 4 mine shoals. Feel free to supply evidence to prove me wrong, there was a lot of crap happening last night and I could have missed something certainly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancezwithnubz Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 you can shoot these mines & drones down yuh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharee Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 (edited) I'm pretty sure the tool tip say 2 mine limit per mine type I'll have to jump in and recheck it. Check the upgrades. All mines (except seismic i think) have an upgrade that allows 1 more mine to be active. This increases the total to either 2 or 3 per mine type depending on what the default number is. I didn't have any requisition to upgrade my mines either or try different types. However I am quite certain that as soon as you launch a mine it goes straight on cooldown never was I able to launch 2 of the same type at a time. Im not talking about laying 2 of the same type. Im talking about the minelayer which can lay a mine both as his secondary weapon, and as his 'systems' ability. They both have cooldowns, but separate. So you can use both at the same time(like a scout can both drop a sensor beacon and activate targeting telemetry at the same time). And yes, i was at the PTS party yesterday, for 2 matches. Edited January 19, 2014 by Sharee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_sim Posted January 19, 2014 Author Share Posted January 19, 2014 Then it comes down to tactics It will take a miner something like a full minute to lay a full 6 mine shoal because of the cooldown. I never did figure out how long the cooldown was. So if you leave a miner alone then yes it will get it's shoal but a lot seems to happen in a GSF minute. I guess we will see. Either way there are still tactics to beat a 6 mine defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharee Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Then it comes down to tactics It will take a miner something like a full minute to lay a full 6 mine shoal because of the cooldown. I never did figure out how long the cooldown was. So if you leave a miner alone then yes it will get it's shoal but a lot seems to happen in a GSF minute. I guess we will see. Either way there are still tactics to beat a 6 mine defense. Laying 6 mines definitely takes time. I am more concerned about the instant 2-mine combo that both deal hull damage to all craft in AOE radius, can be dropped instantly, and does enough damage to kill a scout. (at least on paper - hard to test anything when all enemies are invisible ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_sim Posted January 19, 2014 Author Share Posted January 19, 2014 Well a striker pilot I for one welcome our scout killing overlords. I've been killed by way too many scouts with overcharged quad lasers in 2 seconds flat, let them fee the pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvershadows Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Gods, I can't wait, that sounds so good. Something the scouts can't just evade/miss/dodge/boost/distortion/immune. And since a bomber can't CATCH a scout, the scout will have to come to the bomber to get punished like that. It even punishes burst laser cannon! That sounds so good? You really think it's okay for one ship to be able to take out, say 3-4 at the same time with the press of two buttons? That's okay, I have a fully upgraded gunship ready and waiting, and a fully upgraded pike ready and waiting just for people like you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta_V Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 (edited) Laying 6 mines definitely takes time. I am more concerned about the instant 2-mine combo that both deal hull damage to all craft in AOE radius, can be dropped instantly, and does enough damage to kill a scout. (at least on paper - hard to test anything when all enemies are invisible ) The biggest issue I have is that the explosion radius is larger than the detonation radius. Even if you see the mine and avoid it, if your teammate doesn't, you can still take damage (happened to me on a few occasions). Basically, it punishes a player for their teammate's screw-up. If you only took damage if you flew into the detonation radius, it wouldn't be so bad, because it was at least your mistake. Edited January 19, 2014 by Delta_V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin_Kelvar Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) The biggest issue I have is that the explosion radius is larger than the detonation radius. Even if you see the mine and avoid it, if your teammate doesn't, you can still take damage (happened to me on a few occasions). Basically, it punishes a player for their teammate's screw-up. If you only took damage if you flew into the detonation radius, it wouldn't be so bad, because it was at least your mistake. To be fair that sort of mechanic isn't unique to GSF. I've played games like Battlefield where I avoid a claymore only to have a gung ho teammate set it off and kill us both. In my experience with other games where a teammate could trigger things like mines and kill you both while it'll suck for a bit eventually players learn which teammates to avoid like the plague. It's just the nature of a team based twitch game, sometimes you end up dying through no fault of your own and all because a teammate screwed up. Edited January 20, 2014 by Gavin_Kelvar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yndras Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) Bombers myth 1: Bombers are skill less easy-mode vehicles. they still will be to some degree. You can see hints of it already, you charge your sheilds to full regen, and bash on the engine transfer ability when they get low. If you have a chaser you drop your hull regen drone, or if your a mine layer you turn and drop mines and hit em with your lasers. Bombers are incredibly easy to hit, but once upgraded, they are really tough to crack. in 2.5 PTS the rail gun drones were apparently one shotting strikers, and bombers were declared overpowered by the player base. This was not a Myth. They were one shotting more than just strike fighters. Actually scouts had the roughest time. A fully upgraded rail drone eliminates all the disadvantages of being a gunship. The problem is, no-one on the PTS has had the opportunatey to see otherwise. The requisition rates are too slow for you to upgrade them. - of course this same strength works against my favorite strat. I like to take my striker and hug a control point like paint in order to block the capture, I don't dare try to attack back till I have some friends nearby and I have stayed alive for minutes doing this against 3-4 fighters until my buddies showed up finally. I got crap for kills that match but we did win it. Fortunately for me there were no mine layers around I would have been so dead. I hope more people read this above and do the same. I love the guys that do this, you just pad my numbers. Thanks for the free kill One thing i wont disagree on is that they will bring new tactics and dynamics to the game. But if you think Gunships are cheap and detract from the dogfighting and essence of space combat, chances are you are not going to enjoy the bombers arrival either. As for me, I know how to kill them, i have already designed my preferred ship to handle all the different ships. I dont always get it right, but any ship is overpowered when flown and equipped effectively. Edited January 20, 2014 by Yndras Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 One thing i wont disagree on is that they will bring new tactics and dynamics to the game. But if you think Gunships are cheap and detract from the dogfighting and essence of space combat, chances are you are not going to enjoy the bombers arrival either. And we haven't seen the stealth class that is coming later. So when everything is out, there will be 2 traditional dogfighting ship classes, and three WHAT THE @#$@# classes. Also does anyone else find it humorous that in GSF the Bomber class completely hardcounters the interceptor class? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattycutts Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 you can shoot these mines & drones down yuh? from the games i tried that all ended up bugged to hell: Mines take very little damage to destroy. Drones take a little more but also are able to be one shotted. one gunship can wipe out all the mines in one little ion charged railgun that is maxed to arc to 3 people or 3 mines. lol personally as a gunship main i think having ion railgun arc to 3 mines is over powered should only work against ships personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_sim Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) Bombers myth 1: Bombers are skill less easy-mode vehicles. they still will be to some degree. You can see hints of it already, you charge your sheilds to full regen, and bash on the engine transfer ability when they get low. If you have a chaser you drop your hull regen drone, or if your a mine layer you turn and drop mines and hit em with your lasers. Bombers are incredibly easy to hit, but once upgraded, they are really tough to crack.[/Quote] After laying your drone or mine each launcher goes into a long cool-down. After you drop your one or two pets you basically become a slow heavy fighter. The cooldown is the key a lot will happen during it. in 2.5 PTS the rail gun drones were apparently one shotting strikers, and bombers were declared overpowered by the player base. This was not a Myth. They were one shotting more than just strike fighters. Actually scouts had the roughest time. A fully upgraded rail drone eliminates all the disadvantages of being a gunship. The problem is, no-one on the PTS has had the opportunatey to see otherwise. The requisition rates are too slow for you to upgrade them. I never said 2.5 bombers being overpowered was a myth. Read the full context. The person I'm referencing is named Nemarus. He has a bunch of doom and gloom threads that make the assumption that bombers are an utter broken class because of his experience on 2.5. His belief was that drone carrier would massively over shadow mine layer. My thesis is that mine layer is equally effective if maybe more effective then drone carrier. - of course this same strength works against my favorite strat. I like to take my striker and hug a control point like paint in order to block the capture, I don't dare try to attack back till I have some friends nearby and I have stayed alive for minutes doing this against 3-4 fighters until my buddies showed up finally. I got crap for kills that match but we did win it. Fortunately for me there were no mine layers around I would have been so dead. I hope more people read this above and do the same. I love the guys that do this, you just pad my numbers. Thanks for the free kill I'm not sure what you mean by this. - Do you mean they are easy kills when your enemy does this? I for one am not, but I must be 100% evasive in my flying - Do you mean you like to shoot out the guys hopelessly trying to kill me maybe from your GS? If so your welcome. - Do you mean less kills for me means more kills for you? I play for the win, the most effective time this strat worked I was at the very bottom of the kill board, but we won and I got tons of ship req so I wasn't worried about the low kill score. Edited January 21, 2014 by mr_sim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_sim Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 Also does anyone else find it humorous that in GSF the Bomber class completely hardcounters the interceptor class? Likely only every time it happen, but that's just the striker-scout rivalry talking. I notice your signature says your all about the scout , care to offer an opinion on your new predator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_sim Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 one gunship can wipe out all the mines in one little ion charged railgun that is maxed to arc to 3 people or 3 mines. lol personally as a gunship main i think having ion railgun arc to 3 mines is over powered should only work against ships personally. So as a striker pilot I feel my class is the most bomber neutral, and therefore so are my opinions. It sounds like bombers will need to get decent dispersion to protect against the ion aoe, personally I think with the slow launch rate on bombers good dispersion is necessary anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itkovian Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Also does anyone else find it humorous that in GSF the Bomber class completely hardcounters the interceptor class? I have to admit, it certainly feels weird. But I guess that's why they're called Scouts, and not Interceptors. But it's not like all the role names make sense. - Scouts make a bit of sense, if you use the WWI appellation. "Fighters" were called scout planes back then, and I guess that fits. They're fast, maneuverable, and the best pure dogfighters. But of course even then they somehow get to have the most powerful offensive and defensive capabilities, with the best protection in the game (low health? sure, but evasion more than compensates). That's a bit weird right there. - Strike Fighters, so far at least, aren't really Strike Fighters. They're slower, less maneuverable fighters with longer range weapons. But their role is still to shoot down other fighters and dogfight. That said, if the predictions about bombers are true, then it could be that the Strike Fighters will be the true interceptors, since they can use the heavier long range weaponry and missiles which bombers cannot evade. What I do hope, however, is that they add some sort of game mode where each side needs to hit ray-shielded objectives, requiring the use of Protorps. Between their dogfighting, interceptor, and attack functions they may very well become multirole ships as per the description. - Bombers, meanwhile, are actually mine and drone layers, as well as support ships. No real bombing there, though a game mode that relies on protorps may make their ability to mount protorps actually useful. In which case I guess we could call them bombers. - As for gunships, well, they do mount a Big Gun, so at least there's that. That said, I really don't think the whole "bombers will make people go from scout to gunships" is necessarily accurate. I mean, if more people go gunship to deal with bombers, wouldn't that prompt people to also go scout to hunt down the enemy gunships? While also others go strike to be able to nail bombers and gunships alike? I think that in time at least a natural balanced proportion between roles will be reached, unless of course one is overpowered (I still think ion railgun needs a nerf, for example). Still, interesting times ahead, and thanks OP for the report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadedJasper Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Just got to looking at this stuff on PTS. I'm trying to be positive, but man it's looking... well, solidly broken! Both the insta-gib mines and the brutal drones. The only "saving grace" is that Ion Cannon taps will mess Bombers' pets up. Hard to actually test out though, since it pops so slow. :-/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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