Quarrel & Comet breaker

[Luneward]

Sadly, it likely is.

 

The proton is actually a nice capability, and heavy lasers are also an acceptable weapon. It just costs too much in the current incarnation.

 

Yes, but my point was that proton torpedoes and heavy lasers are ineffective at close range dogfighting , and the ship isn't even given anything back for their stripped shield and thruster options. So there's no way the new gunship was even slightly intended to dogfight at all when the old one outclasses them in every manner for close quarter fighting while still retaining most of the long range artillery as well as keeping the long range utility. After all, how long have you ever been able to maintain a medium range dogfight as even a strike fighter, much less a gunship (which tends to have a big 'shoot me' sign pasted on them)?

 

Now if they had replaced the distortion field with a quick charge shield, and the rotational thrusters with retro thrusters and had concussion or cluster missile options, I would agree it was intended to be a hybrid sniper/dogfighter. As it is now? Anti-bomber artillery without ion rail gun utility.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Luneward

[Sharee]

Sensor beacon.

 

That's not exactly passive evasion. You have to use it, you have to stay nearby, enemies can remove it in a single shot, and it does not affect enemies outside of it's radius.

[CaliJoe]

With maxing the damping sensors tree, I can slink around a little. Hugging cover. The fortress shield can take a frontal hit on the first pass by one strike or scout, not both at the same time. It's an okay ship, but currently cannot survive anything in a dogfight. Protons are nice when you have to wait for the rail gun to charge back up. The power distribution for the guns sucks. I agree with it being a hybrid fighter/gunship. I did defend a satellite by myself one match again a few stock scouts/strikes. I eventually got teamed up and wiped by a pike and scout on a first pass. Edited January 19, 2014 by CaliJoe

[Zharik]

With maxing the damping sensors tree, I can slink around a little. Hugging cover. The fortress shield can take a frontal hit on the first pass by one strike or scout, not both at the same time. It's an okay ship, but currently cannot survive anything in a dogfight. Protons are nice when you have to wait for the rail gun to charge back up. The power distribution for the guns sucks. I agree with it being a hybrid fighter/gunship. I did defend a satellite by myself one match again a few stock scouts/strikes. I eventually got teamed up and wiped by a pike and scout on a first pass.

 

Dampeners are borked. You will always be seen within 15km, making maxing them pretty useless.

[Armonddd]

Sensor beacons:

Well they reduce the enemies accuracy at tier 4 10% and already reduce their evasion 10% (baseline model) so yeah, that's a 20% swing for all people in the beacon's effective range.

 

No, it's not. It's a 20% swing for dogfighters and a 0% swing for gunships. Gunships are so prevalent and tactically important that this is a major difference. In fact, it's a large part of why I fly the Flashfire over the Novadive.

[CaliJoe]

Dampeners are borked. You will always be seen within 15km, making maxing them pretty useless.

 

Then BW needs to un-bork them? So then BW needs fix this how? Visible active cloaking to this? Get all Star Trek on GSF.

[Sadishist]

Remember evasion doesn't do jack against locked missiles. Edited January 20, 2014 by Sadishist

[Verain]

Then BW needs to un-bork them? So then BW needs fix this how? Visible active cloaking to this? Get all Star Trek on GSF.

 

It already has visible active cloaking. It doesn't draw things that you don't detect. The min visible range is currently over 9 miles away for something the size of two minivans- that's kind of absurd.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

Remember evasion doesn't do jack against locked missiles.

 

True but most of your DPS will probably come from blasters as some missiles have long reload/lock times making them generally only good at supplementing the DPS of blasters not substituting the blaster DPS. So against a ship with high evasion the DPS could be lower than against a ship with little/no evasion. Which in turn translates to taking longer to kill compared to a ship with the exact same health but very little/no evasion.

 

That's what I believe Verain is getting at with how evasion effectively increases health.

[Zharik]

No, it's not. It's a 20% swing for dogfighters and a 0% swing for gunships. Gunships are so prevalent and tactically important that this is a major difference. In fact, it's a large part of why I fly the Flashfire over the Novadive.

 

Sensor beacons can only be taken by scouts, not sure why you think that matters for your gunship...

 

Oh and there is nothing that says you can't drop a beacon as you start firing on the gunship.

[Zoom_VI]

Ugh you can't count accuracy penalties like a evasion bonus - it does not work like that at all.

 

If you have 41% evasion, a attacker has a 59% chance to hit you. However it does not matter if the attacker has 80%, 90% or 100% base accuracy it all gets rounded down to 59%. The only way a 10% accuracy reduction would decrease your chance of being hit is if the attacker already has <69% accuracy.

It works like this to prevent weapons with less base accuracy from being excessively penalized by evasion.

[renegadeimp]

Ugh you can't count accuracy penalties like a evasion bonus - it does not work like that at all.

 

If you have 41% evasion, a attacker has a 59% chance to hit you. However it does not matter if the attacker has 80%, 90% or 100% base accuracy it all gets rounded down to 59%. The only way a 10% accuracy reduction would decrease your chance of being hit is if the attacker already has <69% accuracy.

It works like this to prevent weapons with less base accuracy from being excessively penalized by evasion.

 

Basically he means, if you have 41% evasion, and your attacker has 100% accuracy, then they will hit you 100% of the time in that 59% chance to hit. So if the RNG says " Ok, next hit wont be evaded", then your attacker will be guaranteed to hit if he aims properly. If he has over 100% accuracy, then iirc from dev chats, and beta, your evasion chance goes down SLIGHTLY. it;s only a very slight percentile, and it doesnt make much difference, but it happens.

[Grahame]

Wait, are you guys sure about this? I was under the impression that evasion and weapon accuracy were probably set up like they as in the ground game, where chance to hit = (your accuracy % - defense %) instead of chance to hit=(your accuracy %)*(defense %)

[Zoom_VI]

Wait, are you guys sure about this? I was under the impression that evasion and weapon accuracy were probably set up like they as in the ground game, where chance to hit = (your accuracy % - defense %) instead of chance to hit=(your accuracy %)*(defense %)

 

No that is false in the ground game defense is subtracted from 100 not from your accuracy. So if I have 15% defense and you have 95% accuracy the chance of you hitting me is 85% conversely if I have 5% accuracy and you have 95% accuracy the chance of you hitting me remains 95% percent.

 

I assume it works the same in GSF as otherwise low accuracy weapons like rapids would almost never hit a evasion scout even without the active.

[Delta_V]

No that is false in the ground game defense is subtracted from 100 not from your accuracy. So if I have 15% defense and you have 95% accuracy the chance of you hitting me is 85% conversely if I have 5% accuracy and you have 95% accuracy the chance of you hitting me remains 95% percent.

 

I assume it works the same in GSF as otherwise low accuracy weapons like rapids would almost never hit a evasion scout even without the active.

 

Uh.... that's not how it works in the ground game. There's a reason people stack 110% Force/Tech accuracy - all Ops bosses have a 10% defense/resist chance. That 10% is subtracted from your accuracy to determine your chance to hit the target. If it worked the way you describe, you'd *always* miss 10% of your attacks against a boss, but if you get 110% Force/Tech accuracy, none of your abilities, except your basic attack, will miss (not counting dual-wielding classes since their offhand hits have a lower base accuracy).

 

I was also under the impression that is how it worked in GSF - evasion is subtracted from your accuracy to determine your chance to hit.

[Zoom_VI]

Uh.... that's not how it works in the ground game. There's a reason people stack 110% Force/Tech accuracy - all Ops bosses have a 10% defense/resist chance. That 10% is subtracted from your accuracy to determine your chance to hit the target. If it worked the way you describe, you'd *always* miss 10% of your attacks against a boss, but if you get 110% Force/Tech accuracy, none of your abilities, except your basic attack, will miss (not counting dual-wielding classes since their offhand hits have a lower base accuracy).

 

I was also under the impression that is how it worked in GSF - evasion is subtracted from your accuracy to determine your chance to hit.

 

No your misunderstanding the mechanics. In ground game accuracy over 100% results in a reduction of targets defense byt the same amount. So if you have 110% F/T accuracy the target's F/T resistance is reduced by 10% thus neutralizing the base F/T resistance chance of bosses.

 

However I am not quite sure if the accuracy over 100% resulting in dodge reduction applies to GSF, mostly because that would mean burst lasers would have a 20% chance of shooting through Dfield's active when used at optimal range. But I have not witnessed this yet so I am not sure. Going to try using accuracy cooldowns with burst, but its hard to get a Dfield subject consistently to do any decent testing on.

[Sharee]

However I am not quite sure if the accuracy over 100% resulting in dodge reduction applies to GSF, mostly because that would mean burst lasers would have a 20% chance of shooting through Dfield's active when used at optimal range.

 

Burst laser has 115% accuracy. Dfield active increases evasion by 75%. Scout passive evasion is 41%(typical spec for a Dshield scout)

 

That's 115% accuracy against 116% evasion.

 

The numbers can be modified in a number of ways of course, both up and down, so it's not entirely impossble to hit a ship with dfield running, but it has far more variables than simply using a burst laser at short range.

[Zoom_VI]

Burst laser has 115% accuracy. Dfield active increases evasion by 75%. Scout passive evasion is 41%(typical spec for a Dshield scout)

 

That's 115% accuracy against 116% evasion.

 

The numbers can be modified in a number of ways of course, both up and down, so it's not entirely impossble to hit a ship with dfield running, but it has far more variables than simply using a burst laser at short range.

 

My tooltip had burst lasers at 123% accuracy at optimal. And I was thinking perhaps a scout armed with target tele and either a accuracy companion ability or that one that reduced evasion.

[Sharee]

My tooltip had burst lasers at 123% accuracy at optimal. And I was thinking perhaps a scout armed with target tele and either a accuracy companion ability or that one that reduced evasion.

 

It has 123 because you have a crew member with Pinpointing. As i said, the percentages can be modified up and down in a number of ways. Just commenting that merely being close doesn't give you a 20% chance to hit a ship with active DS.

 

You can reduce enemy evasion and increase your own accuracy through active abilities, but so can he increase his own evasion and decrease your accuracy. It comes down to who uses what at the correct time.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Sharee

[Davionix]

However I am not quite sure if the accuracy over 100% resulting in dodge reduction applies to GSF, mostly because that would mean burst lasers would have a 20% chance of shooting through Dfield's active when used at optimal range. But I have not witnessed this yet so I am not sure. Going to try using accuracy cooldowns with burst, but its hard to get a Dfield subject consistently to do any decent testing on.

 

As an evasion build gunship I can confirm that burst laser can occasionally go through my distortion field:mad:

[Zharik]

As an evasion build gunship I can confirm that burst laser can occasionally go through my distortion field:mad:

 

Well there are many ways to make a scout (evasion build is 41%, +75% during distortion field = 116%) get hit during distortion field, but a lot of players are too focused on other things to get their accuracy over 116%. There are evasion reducing debuffs that help too.

 

So scouts can be hit while distortion is up, though the % is low, it is not immunity.