Kaggath Tournament - Sol'yc Empire vs Droid Supremacy

[Selenial]

I'M BACK!

On to the next reason I'm here- supporting my droid friend . Question: What sort of allegiance do planets under the combatants hold to their factions? A vow? Oath? Occupation? This is sort of important for one of my arguments, although not exceedingly. And I know its a weird question, but I think it would be helpful to know in general.

 

Welcome back

 

Important question indeed, though I assumed it was the same level of allegiance that planets showed the republic, not "WE MUST OBEY" but "We'll do it if we like your policies"

[Canino]

Welcome back

 

Important question indeed, though I assumed it was the same level of allegiance that planets showed the republic, not "WE MUST OBEY" but "We'll do it if we like your policies"

 

I concur. However, I may need that to be more specific. I might PM Beni, as I don't want to give it away yet. I guess it could be considered more cultural...

 

And thank you

Edited February 1, 2014 by Canino

[Beniboybling]

I'M BACK!

 

At least, for now. I have a little time at the moment, although that is subject to change.

 

First and foremost, I would like to congratulate Aurbere for his victory over me in our last Kaggath. A hard fought battle. Very nicely done. And I don't think I ever did get around to congratulating you, as I was in serious time constants (hell week, for any thespians here). So, I'm here and might as well do it. After all, it's was quite rude of me.

 

On to the next reason I'm here- supporting my droid friend . Question: What sort of allegiance do planets under the combatants hold to their factions? A vow? Oath? Occupation? This is sort of important for one of my arguments, although not exceedingly. And I know its a weird question, but I think it would be helpful to know in general.

Great to see you back Canino!

 

An agreement of sources, but one what does not have to be upheld. This would of course differ from planet to planet.

 

However under no circumstances is it forced, though the alliance may be made begrudgingly.

Edited February 1, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Canino]

Great to see you back Canino!

 

An agreement of sources, but one what does not have to be upheld. This would of course differ from planet to planet.

 

However under no circumstances is it forced, though the alliance may be made begrudgingly.

 

. That might just work.... Edited February 1, 2014 by Canino

[Selenial]

Warren, for the HK-01 in the factory thing, HK-50's were based on HK-47, designed to be exactly the same. HK-01 is a completely different model.

 

The further down the line you go, the less recognizable they are as ancestors, I have no doubts the 50's could attack 01.

Edited February 1, 2014 by Selenial

[Warren-Stride]

Warren, for the HK-01 in the factory thing, HK-50's were based on HK-47, designed to be exactly the same. HK-01 is a completely different model.

 

The further down the line you go, the less recognizable they are as ancestors, I have no doubts the 50's could attack 01.

 

Actually, I'm not quite sure what happens in the cut content. Because according to Wookieepedia, HK-47 did actually fight his way through HK-50s. Which says something about how inferior they were to HK-47.

 

Regardless, all HK-01 would have to do is find a way to link with them.

[Selenial]

Actually, I'm not quite sure what happens in the cut content. Because according to Wookieepedia, HK-47 did actually fight his way through HK-50s. Which says something about how inferior they were to HK-47.

 

Regardless, all HK-01 would have to do is find a way to link with them.

 

He fought through the Turrets and Guards around the factory, though all HK--50's he met couldn't attack him.

 

He then had a choice, mine was to set the HK-51's free, even though the 51's had a Major design flaw. That design flaw was that they killed HK-50's on sight.

 

I assume that was cannonized, with HK-51's being in SWTOR.

[Aurbere]

I'M BACK!

 

At least, for now. I have a little time at the moment, although that is subject to change.

 

First and foremost, I would like to congratulate Aurbere for his victory over me in our last Kaggath. A hard fought battle. Very nicely done. And I don't think I ever did get around to congratulating you, as I was in serious time constants (hell week, for any thespians here). So, I'm here and might as well do it. After all, it's was quite rude of me.

 

Not rude at all. I completely understand what it is like to have time constraints (been the same for me for two weeks in a row). Better late than never, I say!

[JaborAnDubhar]

Reported.

[tunewalker]

Havent read much of this in a little bit and will get back to some of this, but just did a star wars marathon with the family and I need to bring somthing up for Warren here and under water battles. In Episode 1 the droids tell the Viceroy that they are searching the swamps for the rumored underwater villages and that they wouldnt stay hidden for long. We all know the droids found the gungans and chased them out of their under water homes. This 100% confirms the abiltiy of B1's to fight underwater as that was their only fighting force at that time.

[tunewalker]

In Star Wars a capital ship is an armed vessel longer than 100 metres, this can be anything from a corvette to a Star Destroyer, its simply a vessel designed for war that is not a starfighter/gunship etc.

 

All in all I feel we can say that the Interceptors make up the "bulk" of the Black Sun Navy in the same way that Venator's made up the bulk of the Republic Navy and Kyramud's the Mandalorian navy.

 

I believe this is true. That the black sun's Flag ships would be the big Cruiser and Star Destroyer size ships by the AC system. While their capital ships are the Frigates and their smaller warships would be the Corvettes. We need a calculation with that in mind.

 

While the mando's military Capital ships frigates and such are already spot on. we need to recalculate the others I will do it for you Warren if you wish but I need till next week. I have already put off the Second post on midichlorians and the force because family time I am hoping to get that done by Monday.

[tunewalker]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Sun

 

Ok At the bottom there it has there ships and I have to note that it says the MC-80 by the year 137 ABY, by then those ships would be WOOOHFULLY out of date. They would be Ancient by that point, and have the relitive strength against one of the Imperious classes that the Venarator would have against a Imp MARK II.

 

 

While SE's ships are the Imp Mark II of his faction and his time.

 

If we were going to go for before 137 ABY it would likely be The Venerator as the Flag ship. You will also note they have no "frigate" sized class in their Fleet. The likely hood of this is because the Fleet itself is made up of small ships they just get bumped up to capital.

 

So its likely

 

1% Flagship

14% capital ship

30% Frigate

55% support Ship.

 

Same distrabution given to SE.

 

Since their isnt a "frigate" type I am assuming http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/IPV-1_System_Patrol_Craft which are smaller then their capital ships but is still large enough to fall under capital ship size as their frigates.

 

The issue of course is 1 Capital vs 1 capital its still effectively Venerator vs the Imp II equivilent because by the time they had access to Mon Cal B's they were the same effective strength.

 

I think the initial thought that SE has space superiority might still be in effect here with that idea as the numbers would look like

 

 

2 Venerators during time of GE when Imp II's rules. 2 MC80's time of GA when Palleon classes ruled. (effective strength is the same)

 

28 Interceptor Class with Venerators, Venerators with MC 80s (effective strength is the same)

 

 

60 http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/IPV-1_System_Patrol_Craft

 

110 http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gozanti_Cruiser

 

 

Total fire power

 

564 Turbo lasers (this is going by the assumption of Venerators as both would be same Relative strength by time period)

544 Laser Cannons (same as above)

262 Missile Launchers. (same as above)

 

Vs

 

SE

 

490 turbolasers

588 laser cannons

304 missile launchers

237 ion cannons

 

 

Nearly evenly matched if you ask me...... but I think the DS has more manuverablilty with the faster ships and more of them, but I do not think they dont have the tactitians to really take advantage of that, and the SE does have a slight fire power advantage.

 

 

Edit: From what i can see the DS might also have Fighter Superiority, skill of the pilot not with standing just numbers.

 

Edit 2: Nvm it seems about equal there as well after looking at all ship compliments. Still Warren is right firepower vs firepower they are fairly evenly matched, but I think the tactitian unfortunately sways that in the favor of the SE.

Edited February 3, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

What about hull strength? Is that not a factor?

[Selenial]

Also Tune, a Venator against an Imp MK-2 isn't that big of a stretch, they weren't out dated, but the Tarkin Doctrine favored Capital ships over Fighters, which is why the Venator had to go, full complements each and they'd be pretty equal...

[tunewalker]

Also Tune, a Venator against an Imp MK-2 isn't that big of a stretch, they weren't out dated, but the Tarkin Doctrine favored Capital ships over Fighters, which is why the Venator had to go, full complements each and they'd be pretty equal...

 

Absolutely, its just the MK II clearly has the upper hand after all thats why the empire went with them instead but overall they are fairly close. After they say here

 

"Despite possessing powerful weaponry and being on par with the Victory-class, the Venator-class was designed with an additional starfighter carrier role in mind. Its hangars were far larger than those on other Star Destroyers like the Victory-class and later models like the Imperator/Imperial-class.["

 

So they held a larger compliment while having equal firepower to a Victroy they could definitely hold their own but ultimately i am pretty sure the Imp II's would win out.

 

 

 

Edit: aurbere Hull strength is very much a factor but not one I can factor as its a big giant ? for me

 

 

Edit 2: Actually I think the point is not including the compliment any way since I covered number of fighters later. So was talking Capital vs Capital no fighters included which the Venator would lose pretty badly against an Imp II same with the MC80 vs the Pallaeon.

Edited February 3, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

Edit: aurbere Hull strength is very much a factor but not one I can factor as its a big giant ? for me

 

Well, the question was posed to everyone in general.

[tunewalker]

Well, the question was posed to everyone in general.

 

Well just a thought, even if SE has 1 to 1 shield and hull strength advantage there are more then double the ships in the DS which means a lot more hulls and a lot more shields but the relative strength of it all is one i cant answer so People come on bring it in here and lets debate .

[Aurbere]

Well just a thought, even if SE has 1 to 1 shield and hull strength advantage there are more then double the ships in the DS which means a lot more hulls and a lot more shields but the relative strength of it all is one i cant answer so People come on bring it in here and lets debate .

 

Well, if the DS focuses on Mon Calamari ships they have shields locked down. Troll shields FTW!

[tunewalker]

Well, if the DS focuses on Mon Calamari ships they have shields locked down. Troll shields FTW!

 

Well if you noticed they didnt have Mon Cal ships till 137 ABY which by that time they would have been largely out of date and everyone was running duel shields so at the time Double shields were the standard on those size ships. Just like the earlier time with the venators single shields were the standard. So both for their time had the standard for shield strength.

[Selenial]

Well, if the DS focuses on Mon Calamari ships they have shields locked down. Troll shields FTW!

 

But. They. Can't!

 

Not only will Mon Cala engineers not work, or barely work for the DS, they design each ship to be Unique, which droids simply don't work with

 

Combined with them being out of date, it seems completely impractical for the DS to use Mon Cala ships.

[Beniboybling]

What about hull strength? Is that not a factor?

This. The Mandalorian Navy has far thicker hulls than the Black Sun counterparts. Firepower isn't everything.

 

Really I think we should draw our attention away from figures and approach the situation ship-to-ship.

[Aurbere]

But. They. Can't!

 

Not only will Mon Cala engineers not work, or barely work for the DS, they design each ship to be Unique, which droids simply don't work with

 

Combined with them being out of date, it seems completely impractical for the DS to use Mon Cala ships.

 

Well, there is a way to deal with the incompatibility issue, but I don't know if it would be allowed. One of the reasons I am staying away from Mon Cal fleets for the next Kaggath.

[tunewalker]

This. The Mandalorian Navy has far thicker hulls than the Black Sun counterparts. Firepower isn't everything.

 

Really I think we should draw our attention away from figures and approach the situation ship-to-ship.

 

well that whole thing was just done as an analysis that Squirl had been asking for and you your self some what promted when you said that we have to remember that the Interceptor Frigate was listed as a "capital ship" for that faction so I guess my question is.

 

Did i at least do what had been asked there and is there any argument about GE BS navy looking like

 

2 Venator's

 

28 Interceptor

 

60 Ipv-1

 

110 Gozanti

 

 

With the Legacy Era BS Navy having relative equal strength for its time but with numbers being

 

2 Mon Cal B

 

28 Venator

 

60 Interceptor

 

55 Gozant 55 IPV-1

 

again same relative strength do to time period.

 

Really just trying to do what was asked for.

[Warren-Stride]

Not only will Mon Cala engineers not work, or barely work for the DS, they design each ship to be Unique, which droids simply don't work with

 

Combined with them being out of date, it seems completely impractical for the DS to use Mon Cala ships.

 

I'm really confused by this argument.

 

It seems only practical that if an Empire is making ships for itself (and yes, Mon Calamari is part of the DS, so the DS owns the Mon Calamari shipyards: the Mon Calamari are not working for the DS, they ARE the DS) then it would make sure that the ships are compatible to its forces. Every ship is unique? Okay, just make the next ones NOT unique. Then droids will be able to use them better and problem solved.

 

And of course we can point to the fact that the MC80s that the Black Sun Navy used were made in 137 ABY, and were obviously made for beings other than Mon Calamari pilots.

 

Also, on the whole "Mon Calamari won't work for the DS" thing, who cares? The DS is literally made up of droids. You know, the things responsible for pretty much ALL of the manual labor and production of war machines in the Star Wars universe? The droids are the ones making the ships, not the Mon Calamari. They can stay down on the planet and live happy lives.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[Beniboybling]

I'm really confused by this argument.

 

It seems only practical that if an Empire is making ships for itself (and yes, Mon Calamari is part of the DS, so the DS owns the Mon Calamari shipyards: the Mon Calamari are not working for the DS, they ARE the DS) then it would make sure that the ships are compatible to its forces. Every ship is unique? Okay, just make the next ones NOT unique. Then droids will be able to use them better and problem solved.

 

And of course we can point to the fact that the MC80s that the Black Sun Navy used were made in 137 ABY, and were obviously made for beings other than Mon Calamari pilots.

 

Also, on the whole "Mon Calamari won't work for the DS" thing, who cares? The DS is literally made up of droids. You know, the things responsible for pretty much ALL of the manual labor and production of war machines in the Star Wars universe? The droids are the ones making the ships, not the Mon Calamari. They can stay down on the planet and live happy lives.

Forget that, just program the droids to pilot whatever they build.