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Let the hate fly, but I still say Bioware should allow you to change your AC


STJedi

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You don't get it do you? Even if they do it while they are NOT in a raid or flashpoint, they are still changing the WHOLE WAY they play the game. Essentially, this means they have to relearn the entire class again.

 

But changing their skill tree is changing the whole way they play the game, changing the composition of the raid team, and everything else you are saying. You think someone who has always been a dps can suddenly heal if they respec? And they would need to change their gear.

 

So your raid team could cope with your tank deciding to go dps from now on, but you couldn't cope with a gunslinger dps changing to scoundrel dps? Your argument doesn't make any sense. Gunslinger dps vs soundrel dps could also start off reasonably well with the same gear too.

Edited by CrazyMcGee
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seriously? that's your objection? do people ask in droves to be able to change their gear from tank to dps to healer when they switch roles via respec now? (well, some probably do) should they actualy be listened to? there's an understanding in game already that certain gear works best for certain roles. some people never really get that idea and gear improperly with or without AC change. they need to be educated, solution is NOT to restrict access from everyone else, just becasue a few are a bit... less sharp.

 

its not even remotely like asking to be able to switch mods.

 

more like asking to be able to respec (which we can already do) but instead of 3 trees to chose from - you get 6 trees to chose from.

 

The point I was trying to make is that asking to change your AC is the same thing as asking for something that you don't have to work for because you already did it once. That would be the same thing as asking for a different set of end gear because you already have one for a different class. Would you think it's fair to trade in an entire set of dps 78's for a set of tank 78's? I'm sure if they did this you wouldn't like it and that's basically how I feel about changing your AC. If they do eventually allow you to change your AC, it probably wouldn't be game breaking but I like it the way it is. Roll a new toon and be done with it. You could have been off the starter planet by now :w_tongue:

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allow me to address your "reasons"

 

1. people who are unhappy with their AC after playing their class for a while will not stay to reroll another character, if they don't enjoy replaying the same story. allowing them to change AC keeps them in a game longer while making them stick to the one they have is more likely to push them out of the game all together.

2. easy has NOTHING to do with it. the question is... is it fun?

3. yeah, no. lets say I level to lvl 55 as a lethality operative and then decide to heal at end game. do I have any clue at all how to play a healer? no. not even remotely. in fact, I'm in an opposite situation right now, I leveled my operative as a healer and I have no clue how to dps on her in either of the specs. leveling 1 to 55 didn't magicaly teach me how to play all three talent trees, I still have to learn the other 2 i didn't touch? from scratch. changing AC is basically the same idea, except instead of 2 trees I don't know how to play, I have 5 tress to chose from, to learn how to play at end game (that, and there's also a small matter of all too many people not having any idea of how to play the talent tree they DID level with)

4. if you switch specs/roles, you probably have the wrong gear for the role/spec you are switching to. in fact - you are in better shape if you switch AC and remain dps then when you keep your AC but switch roles. but armor rating you say? but adoptive armor and ability to transfer mods - I say.

5. and? its an arbitrary restriction and arbitrary warning. there is absolutely no reason for it to remain permanent other then "i don't want other people to have this option"

 

 

 

seriously? that's your objection? do people ask in droves to be able to change their gear from tank to dps to healer when they switch roles via respec now? (well, some probably do) should they actualy be listened to? there's an understanding in game already that certain gear works best for certain roles. some people never really get that idea and gear improperly with or without AC change. they need to be educated, solution is NOT to restrict access from everyone else, just becasue a few are a bit... less sharp.

 

its not even remotely like asking to be able to switch mods.

 

more like asking to be able to respec (which we can already do) but instead of 3 trees to chose from - you get 6 trees to chose from.

really? becasue it sure sounds like "I have nothing to refute what you just wrote, but don't wish to admit it, so I'm going to give myself an out "

 

 

 

 

First of all I am not giving myself "an out". In case you don't know in Texas (GMT) it is 11:33pm, and unlike some people I have a life to live and things to do, so I need my sleep. But since you all are so insistent that im taking "an out", I'll take the time to reply to the 5 points left.

 

1. If people are really unhappy with their AC, then they will take the time to reroll. What you basically said is, "If they don't like their AC, then they quit". No, it doesn't happen like that, if people don't like it then they either play a different class or reroll their AC because they have no other choice. Plus, if they don't enjoy the story, no one is forcing them to replay it. There are other methods of getting to 55 without the Class Stories including GSF, Arenas, Warzones, and Flashpoints.

 

2. Easy DOES have stuff to do with it! Because it is easy to get XP, then they will level up a lot faster with their new chosen AC. And for the question, "is it fun", that all depends on what the person is doing. If a PvE centric person is doing PvP, then of course it most likely won't be fun. But if they are doing, what they enjoy, then it'll be fun.

 

3. Lol, no. You didn't even read this point did you? Its not just about changing roles (heal, dps, tank), its about changing EVERYTHING. If you change from heals to dps, all you have to learn is the rotation and keybinds. If you change a whole AC, it changes EVERYTHING. You need new gear, plus you have to learn new MECHANICS. Lets look at Operative to Sniper. If you change from OP to Sniper then you have to relearn everything from keybinds, to abilites, to mechanics (the cover mechanic), no stealth and you are now a RANGED dps. It is significantly easier to learn a new tree in your AC than learn a new AC of your class.

 

4. I actually agree with you on this one, and am sorry because I did not think of it that way. But that doesn't dismiss the fact of having to learn totally new mechanics and skills.

 

5. Bioware put a warning there for a reason. If they wanted you to be able to change, then they wouldn't have put it there, now would they? It is to prevent people who are clueless from messing up Endgame even more then it is now.

 

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go to sleep, so I can actually get up in the morning.

 

P.S. Try putting spaces between paragraphs, instead of having people read a wall of text. Thanks ;)

 

Edited by Essence_of_Light
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The point I was trying to make is that asking to change your AC is the same thing as asking for something that you don't have to work for because you already did it once. That would be the same thing as asking for a different set of end gear because you already have one for a different class. Would you think it's fair to trade in an entire set of dps 78's for a set of tank 78's? I'm sure if they did this you wouldn't like it and that's basically how I feel about changing your AC. If they do eventually allow you to change your AC, it probably wouldn't be game breaking but I like it the way it is. Roll a new toon and be done with it. You could have been off the starter planet by now :w_tongue:

 

If you had to give up your dps 78s to trade them for tank 78s, then I wouldn't actually have a problem with that. You did the work already, so why does it matter which stats you got? I wouldn't want you to keep both if you didn't earn both, but have you never heard the expression "fair exchange is no robbery"?

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Flexibility of customizing our character base>fragile ego of certain individuals who think that levelling a character to 55 is an "achievement".

 

Playing since release, got at least each AC type at 55, should be pushing the "I rerolled, so now you have to" attitude, but, quite frankly, freedom of customization>enforcing arbitrary limitations (omg, classes are set in stone, the MMOs that I know don't do that, so that's the only way!), which some players seem to treat as a religious dogma.

 

Respeccing ACs shouldn't be something mundane. Give it a week cooldown, or a considerable price tag - don't care. As long as we have the option

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Yea lets hear it out

I would rather pay to be able to change my AC, rather then have to level up to 55 again.

That's my opinion, lets hear yours.

 

I concur. I have 10 toons and i wish i could change at least 1 maybe 2 of their Advance Class. I know for sure i like to switch my Powertech to Merc.. I think we all should be allowed one free AC change and then if you decide you didn't like it after all then pay a 460 CC, to change it back or to another class, i dont think it should be worth any more then that.......

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Despite the fact I still highly disagree. Would those be in favor except say a heavy cool down of 3 months after the first time you change. Also, would you pay a heavy gee in cc for it? I don't know maybe 10k? This as a person who nightly disagrees with it would compromise to.
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suggestion of it being 10k cartel coins and 3 months cooldown is NOT a compromise, its a "lets make it so laughably expensive no one would want to use it anyway " it shouldn't cost more than character transfer.

 

suggestion that it has to be unlocked by leveling an AC to 55 first is ALSO laughable becasue it completely defeats the purpose of offering this as an option. it DOES still create a "problem" of FOTM rerollers, it just penalizes people who would change AC for reasons other than flash of the month.

 

as for AC being equitable to a completely separate class? not even remotely. AC's share a skill tree and abilities. they share story, companions, gear vendors, skill trainers. classes? do not.

we've had this conversation over and over and over and over... but it doesn't change the fact that AC being permanent is arbitrary. allowing the switch will not change class or encounter design, it will not change gear design, it will not create any flagging issues, since all but AC flags are NOT tied to AC in any way shape or form. all it will do is add flexibility and added incentive to keep playing? to those who want it. and people who like rerolling? will keep on rerolling.

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Reason 3: Endgame. In MANY ways, leveling 1-55 is a preparation for endgame, and for you to learn your AC, set your keybinds, etc. Say, you level to 55 as a Operative Healer. Then you get to 55, and you switch to Sniper, and you'll have NO IDEA what to do or how to play (unless you have leveled a Sniper to 55 before). Even if you have done it before, there are plenty of people out there who HAVEN'T and causing AC switches will cause many, many problems for Endgame. I mean... look around, there are threads complaining about people who don't know how to play their AC or role, even WITHOUT AC switches.

I'd like to point out that we now have GSF which allows to level from 1 to 55 without the use of a single character ability, so this argument loses a bit of the weight it had pre 2.5.

Edited by Danylia
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First of all I am not giving myself "an out". In case you don't know in Texas (GMT) it is 11:33pm, and unlike some people I have a life to live and things to do, so I need my sleep. But since you all are so insistent that im taking "an out", I'll take the time to reply to the 5 points left.

 

1. If people are really unhappy with their AC, then they will take the time to reroll. What you basically said is, "If they don't like their AC, then they quit". No, it doesn't happen like that, if people don't like it then they either play a different class or reroll their AC because they have no other choice. Plus, if they don't enjoy the story, no one is forcing them to replay it. There are other methods of getting to 55 without the Class Stories including GSF, Arenas, Warzones, and Flashpoints.

 

2. Easy DOES have stuff to do with it! Because it is easy to get XP, then they will level up a lot faster with their new chosen AC. And for the question, "is it fun", that all depends on what the person is doing. If a PvE centric person is doing PvP, then of course it most likely won't be fun. But if they are doing, what they enjoy, then it'll be fun.

 

3. Lol, no. You didn't even read this point did you? Its not just about changing roles (heal, dps, tank), its about changing EVERYTHING. If you change from heals to dps, all you have to learn is the rotation and keybinds. If you change a whole AC, it changes EVERYTHING. You need new gear, plus you have to learn new MECHANICS. Lets look at Operative to Sniper. If you change from OP to Sniper then you have to relearn everything from keybinds, to abilites, to mechanics (the cover mechanic), no stealth and you are now a RANGED dps. It is significantly easier to learn a new tree in your AC than learn a new AC of your class.

 

4. I actually agree with you on this one, and am sorry because I did not think of it that way. But that doesn't dismiss the fact of having to learn totally new mechanics and skills.

 

5. Bioware put a warning there for a reason. If they wanted you to be able to change, then they wouldn't have put it there, now would they? It is to prevent people who are clueless from messing up Endgame even more then it is now.

 

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go to sleep, so I can actually get up in the morning.

 

P.S. Try putting spaces between paragraphs, instead of having people read a wall of text. Thanks ;)

 

oh resorting to picking on paragraphs, cute, very cute.

 

1. to get companions you need to do the story. to get your ship you need to do the story. that story takes up considerable chunk of leveling. people are skipping planetary stories by doing all that you suggested, you cannot really skip a class story unless you are willing to gimp your character considerably. and yes people who are not enjoying mechanics of their chosen character, and might try another class and not like it either? will quit if they only option is to "reroll" game should be fun, not "work"

 

2. no easy and fun are not interchangeable. and as mentioned above - if you are not enjoying replaying the same content you already played through? you are NOT having fun.

 

3. changing roles IS changing mechanics. hell changing between dps specs is changing mechanics. you apparently didn't read my example either. with exception of warriors/knights - you either need new gear regardless, or you can literally use the same exact gear. if you started out as a gunslinger and switch to scoundrel, the only thing that's different is your offhand. and guess what? shells are dirt cheap on GTN and mods, barrels crystals? transfer over. when you are even switching specs, you need to learn different mechanics, different rotation, different keybinds, you need to redo your bars, change your playstyle - EVEN when switching between dps specs within the same AC. if you think otherwise? you either haven't tried respeccing or or haven't played enough characters to 55 or.. maybe you are not as good as you think you are.

 

4. no, it does not. anymore than it doesn't dismiss the fact that you have to learn all new skills and abilities when you switch specs right now... even within the same role.

 

5. bioware did a lot of things for a reason. and then they changed those things because they got other reasons to change them. you used to have to go to a trainer to respec. now you can buy an unlock and do it whenever. you used to have to wait till lvl 25 to get your first speeder. now you can get it as early as 10. this game used to be subscription only. and now its not. and I can go on, and on and on. things are subject to change. nothing is ever set in stone, especially something as small and arbitrary as one lvl 10 choice. and contrary to your claim, I doubt its to prevent people from messing up end game, but rather to create more divergent playstyles within the same story, so that the class system looks more robust.

 

I'd like to point out that we now have GSF which allows to level from 1 to 55 without the use of a single character ability, so this argument loses a bit of the weight it had pre 2.5.

THANK YOU for pointing this out.

 

and before "see, see, you can do other stuff to level" gets mentioned? unless you are willing to be stuck on starter planet for the rest of your game time and not have a single companion or ship - you HAVE to do your story. whether you do it while leveling or at 55? doesn't matter. moreover - you can do your story without even picking AC. you can outlevel boss fights and make them easier. so it doesn't teach you how to play your character, it just makes you go through the same story, whether you like it or not.

Edited by Jeweledleah
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I really don't see why this is such a "sky is falling" topic, honestly.

 

The ability to change your AC isn't suddenly going to turn a good player into a bumbling idiot who can't play their class to save their life. If someone is dumb enough to hop into group content without learning their other AC then they probably weren't exactly competent at the other one either. Lol

 

I also don't see how this is any different than changing (bear with me here) specs in WoW on some classes. Example, druid. One melee, one ranged, one healing and one tank spec. All with significantly different move sets and roles. And yet, somehow, tons of people are able to learn and use more than one of those at the same time while still playing just fine!

 

Also, the people who are saying it could mess up raid groups. What kind of raid groups are you talking about here? This would only help the guild groups and such because if people being able to fulfill more than one/diverse roles then you open up greater opportunities for better fight comps, switches when people are absent, etc. The only place I can see this being an issue are pug groups where someone goes in as one and decides to switch to the other, affecting the group. But did you really want to run with someone like that anyways?

 

Now, I don't really care if they implement this or not. I'm perfectly capable of leveling things. However, I do understand why people want to. Some people like to do everything on one character, some people don't enjoy leveling, some people don't have time, etc. And that's fine. Personally, I don't see how more options like this would actually hurt anything where people wouldn't just be acting like douche bags anyways.

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oh resorting to picking on paragraphs, cute, very cute.

 

1. to get companions you need to do the story. to get your ship you need to do the story. that story takes up considerable chunk of leveling. people are skipping planetary stories by doing all that you suggested, you cannot really skip a class story unless you are willing to gimp your character considerably. and yes people who are not enjoying mechanics of their chosen character, and might try another class and not like it either? will quit if they only option is to "reroll" game should be fun, not "work"

 

2. no easy and fun are not interchangeable. and as mentioned above - if you are not enjoying replaying the same content you already played through? you are NOT having fun.

 

3. changing roles IS changing mechanics. hell changing between dps specs is changing mechanics. you apparently didn't read my example either. with exception of warriors/knights - you either need new gear regardless, or you can literally use the same exact gear. if you started out as a gunslinger and switch to scoundrel, the only thing that's different is your offhand. and guess what? shells are dirt cheap on GTN and mods, barrels crystals? transfer over. when you are even switching specs, you need to learn different mechanics, different rotation, different keybinds, you need to redo your bars, change your playstyle - EVEN when switching between dps specs within the same AC. if you think otherwise? you either haven't tried respeccing or or haven't played enough characters to 55 or.. maybe you are not as good as you think you are.

 

4. no, it does not. anymore than it doesn't dismiss the fact that you have to learn all new skills and abilities when you switch specs right now... even within the same role.

 

5. bioware did a lot of things for a reason. and then they changed those things because they got other reasons to change them. you used to have to go to a trainer to respec. now you can buy an unlock and do it whenever. you used to have to wait till lvl 25 to get your first speeder. now you can get it as early as 10. this game used to be subscription only. and now its not. and I can go on, and on and on. things are subject to change. nothing is ever set in stone, especially something as small and arbitrary as one lvl 10 choice. and contrary to your claim, I doubt its to prevent people from messing up end game, but rather to create more divergent playstyles within the same story, so that the class system looks more robust.

 

 

THANK YOU for pointing this out.

 

and before "see, see, you can do other stuff to level" gets mentioned? unless you are willing to be stuck on starter planet for the rest of your game time and not have a single companion or ship - you HAVE to do your story. whether you do it while leveling or at 55? doesn't matter. moreover - you can do your story without even picking AC. you can outlevel boss fights and make them easier. so it doesn't teach you how to play your character, it just makes you go through the same story, whether you like it or not.

 

First of all, how was I "picking" on the paragraphs. I asked calmly for you to put spaces between them, and even said thanks afterwards... doesn't sound like picking on someone to me.

 

I'm tired of this, I am not going to spend my time arguing about something that I can promise, will not get implemented into the game anytime soon. You can say i gave up, or taunt me all you want but Im done, fact is that this isn't happening. I have way more important things to do than argue with a stranger on the internet about my opinions of what should/shouldn't be added into a game. :rolleyes:

Edited by Essence_of_Light
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First of all, how was I "picking" on the paragraphs. I asked calmly for you to put spaces between them, and even said thanks afterwards... doesn't sound like picking on someone to me.

 

I'm tired of this, I am not going to spend my time arguing about something that I can promise, will not get implemented into the game anytime soon. You can say i gave up, or taunt me all you want but Im done, fact is that this isn't happening. I have way more important things to do than argue with a stranger on the internet about my opinions of what should/shouldn't be added into a game. :rolleyes:

 

you know that for a fact, eh? do you have precognitive abilities, cause I'd love me some winning lottery numbers. we don't know anything "for a fact" other than bioware saying that they are considering it. as in - they haven't made up their minds yet, whether they will implement it or not, but its definitely NOT off the table.

its your choice not to argue. its all opinion anyways, I just happen to think that your opinions hold no water as far as argument at hand is concerned.

 

and post above you is right on the money.

 

me, personally? I won't be using it even if it gets implemented. I like my characters as they are at this point (though chances are - my gunslinger wouldn't have been stuck around lvl 30 for 2 years, before I finished her story, if I could change her to scoundrel, but now her story is done, and she'll likely stay 50ish for the rest of my time in this game, and I'll just finish leveling my other smuggler if I ever feel like doing any end game pubside) I like to replay stories. I just think it would be a good addition to the game.

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How is this different to doing a tree respec ? do they do this in the middle of raids ?

 

Respec affects the fine tuning of your character, some abilities are added/removed, some become more/less effective, but it's all just minor tweeks.

 

The Advance Class is completely different, you have half your abilities changed, you might lose or gain armour proficiencies, and your skill tree is has only one common branch (usually the least effective).

 

Comparing these two things is like comparing having your car engine retuned and your car rebuilt, some similarities but nobody will believe they are the same thing.

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AlexDougherty

 

It affects endgame and raids as well. Because if you have people respecing at will then it breaks down group dynamics and raiding teams.

 

My point on that quote was that it wouldn't be feasible to do this in while on a raid team or break group dynamics

 

Sure you may have a rebuilt car at the end of it but it isn't going to be feasible with what changes are occurring, and will be time consuming to set, to think this can be done mid raid, instead of say a specific activation point on fleet, like where we select AC now.

Edited by OwenBrooks
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AlexDougherty

My point on that quote was that it wouldn't be feasible to do this in while on a raid team or break group dynamics

 

Sure you may have a rebuilt car at the end of it but it isn't going to be feasible with what changes are occurring, and will be time consuming to set, to think this can be done mid raid, instead of say a specific activation point on fleet, like where we select AC now.

 

Ok, yes it is unreasonable to alter your spec mid raid, I know some people do it, and I've never considered it myself, mainly because when you are getting trammelled you really start to learn a class (or spec) in detail and learn your limits (and sometimes a few excellent counter strategies).

 

Sorry I missed your point originally.

Edited by AlexDougherty
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Yay, the argument starts again ;)

 

Already have this massive thread ETA on Advanced Classes? about exactly the same topic.

 

I would imagine it will get here when BW introduce some new Advanced Classes. That would fit in with the general marketing strategy when they released the species change, it's only really profitable if there's a strong demand (such as the appearance of Cathar) and at a viable price 1,000-2,000 Cartel coins seems about right.

 

New FP content seems to be downgrading the importance of the trinity. CZ-198 had two FPs that do not require specific roles, the Kuat Driveyards will have a variable FP that is also role neutral (also going an additional step of bolstering low level characters so they can play alongside high level).

 

Now SWTOR has gone to a hybrid model the need to make people sit and grind through levels has lessened (after all they can do that for free) the need to give players a character they value and are willing to spend cash on from the cartel market has increased. I would imagine a player is far more likely to splash out on a character they enjoy playing or know that they have plenty of endgame options with.

 

As for the impact on PUGs... really if you want hassle free end game you should be looking for a guild that can support your play style and/or adding good players to your friends list and the bad players to your ignore list. I know it's too much to expect from many gamers these days but maybe have some patience when you encounter a player that's not up to the high standards you expect and offer advice.

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A friend of mine wont play the game on his main character because he hates playing his AC, which is a gunslinger. He hates being a boring turret. He chose the class because it sounded cool to wield two guns and be a gunslinger. But he did not know he would be stuck as a turret throughout the whole game. Which is sad since I would love to play the game with him more, and re-rolling is not an option, as he has done to much stuff on that character and it is to much work to level another smuggler.

 

You really don't get the full feel of a class until you reach max level and get all the skills and you get to try out the class in PvP and PvE. I also have a few alts I would love to change my AC on, so this should be an option. I really don't see how anyone can be against an option like this to be honest.

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A friend of mine wont play the game on his main character because he hates playing his AC, which is a gunslinger. He hates being a boring turret. He chose the class because it sounded cool to wield two guns and be a gunslinger. But he did not know he would be stuck as a turret throughout the whole game. Which is sad since I would love to play the game with him more, and re-rolling is not an option, as he has done to much stuff on that character and it is to much work to level another smuggler.

 

You really don't get the full feel of a class until you reach max level and get all the skills and you get to try out the class in PvP and PvE. I also have a few alts I would love to change my AC on, so this should be an option. I really don't see how anyone can be against an option like this to be honest.

 

Emphasis mine.

 

I think the most common reason's betrayed itself several times throughout this thread - some people have the raging cases of entitlement they accuse others of having, only its respective to what they feel are their 'accomplishments' or 'achievments', or just whatever it is that they regard as lending value to their own activities in the game. If they had to grind for it, they'll be outraged if someone else doesn't have to. They'll call anyone asking for what is actually a highly monetizable and altogether reasonable-to-monetize option everything from lazy to entitled, references to silver platters will invariably be made and moaning lamentations shall abound about how you NEED to manually level an AC or you'll NEVER LEARN HOW TO PLAY SUCH A DELICATE AND NUANCED PANOPLY OF LIVING ART ERMAGERD!

 

Because learning a new class is hard (in what world?) and you won't have the right gear (this is hard to correct?) and you'll throw off the DELICATE, DELICATE BALANCES OPS GUILDS REQUIRE (You know, that guild you probably joined on a whim or because you made some pal in a dungeon once and they liked how you tanked or healed or weren't a DPS trying to max your reputation with the floor in every fight), so clearly you must be protected, and the sanctity of the AC must be protected, against this heinous, heinous violation against all sanity and reason.

 

Because SHIPS WOULD GO BLOOP IF YOU COULD JUST...CHANGE YOUR AC FOR A FEE, SIR (or ma'am if you're a ma'am). SHIPS. WOULD. GO. BLOOP.

Edited by Uruare
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The only way I'd say Bioware should allow this is if you have both advanced classes at max level, so say you have a lvl 55 assassin and a lvl 55 sage. You could then change your Sin to a Sorc or the other way round for the sage - turning him into a shadow.

 

This way you have experience in both classes and you aren't just thrown into a brand new world with absolutely no idea what you're doing and ruining everybody else's experience in the process.

 

And to further make sure that in the case you still have no idea what you're doing you should have a stamp beside your name for a few months indicating you have had an AC change as a warning for those playing with you.

 

 

- I have this motto in MMO's that I'll keep telling everyone and that is : The leveling process is just a long tutorial for you to learn your class.

Edited by micnevv
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