Skill over gear: the proof

[Armonddd]

I recently rolled a republic alt for various reasons, including getting a super sexy Flashfire. Of course, this meant starting GSF essentially from scratch - while my main GSF character, Mae'thon, has enough spare req that I can afford to buy a (gun)ship and fully outfit it before ever flying it, my alt had... zero requisition.

 

So, ok, whatever. I spent a few matches unlocking the Flashfire, and then a few more getting all the components I want. Let me tell you, being stuck with light lasers really sucks, and queue times on the other side aren't exactly quick. Did not feel bad burning some cartel coins to get daily and weekly req transferred to fleet.

 

Al told, I've played maybe half a dozen matches on this character (who shall remain anonymous) and spent something on the order of five bucks to skip some grind. Everything on this list is un-upgraded, except for the burst cannons, which have the tier 1 damage boost. (Proof: missiles, systems, shields, engines, armor, capacitor, reactor, and thrusters.) I spent most of my fleet requisition unlocking crew members, though unfortunately Qyzen isn't as hilarious as Blizz (but I guess that's a pretty high bar to set).

 

The result? Massive damage to their weak point.

 

Both teams had their fair share of poor players, but it's important to note that - besides that being exactly the point I'm making - at least a few of them had notable levels of upgrades. Kassel and Khaar, for example, I've seen fly before. They're far from amazing, but that's not the point - the point is that they're not new, and they've had time to get some upgrades.

 

Still too much "shark in the goldfish pool" for you? Want to see me fly against better pilots? The very next match, with no further upgrades, we got farmed by some of the older Imperial pilots carrying Silent, and I still did better than most pilots in the match (strictly better than everyone from our #2 pilot down, though you could argue that the kills and assists Spikoli, O'dyssius, Mala-kai, Maxpowers, and Buttfat got were more important than my damage).

 

If this doesn't prove that skill is more important than gear, I don't know what will.

 

Update: Keeping up with some players that give me difficulty when I fly Imperial.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Armonddd

[-Shadowfist-]

I'm not disagreeing or anything, but I gotta ****in laugh at silents 300+ objective points. He wasn't hunting.

[Armonddd]

That's exactly why I said he was being carried by O'dyssius and crew. He's going for the four minute defender medals on his strike because he wants to gear it up.

[Danylia]

First, where I disagree with you:

 

1) You did this with the FotM ship carrying the FotM weapon. Both unupgraded, yes, fair point. But why haven't you taken the basic scout or strike fighter, if you wanted to prove skill > gear? Well, you said yourself that "being stuck with light lasers really sucks" ...

 

2) The first match was against complete newbies (including one AFKer). You named two players you know - one of them was in your own team and with the best stats second to you, the other was the (by far) best player of the opposing team. Also, no info about what types of ships were in the match.

 

3) In the second match, the only impressive statistics of yours are damage and hit ratio. To get them both that high does take skill, I fully admit that. But for me it more says something about the strength of the Burst Laser (and again, in the hands of a good pilot, props to you) compared to other weapons.

 

Now where I agree with you:

Skill over Gear. Definitely. But in my opinion most people already agree on that. However, that doesn't mean that skill completely negates gear.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Danylia

[Helig]

^

Did similarly on a Blackbolt when I first started GSFing on Imp side not so long ago. RFlasers,quickcharge shield, Booster recharge and all that. Your "FOTM" argument is invalid.

 

Also, Flashfire is only so "godly" if it has a pilot to back it up. A mediocre pilot on a Flashfire will do slightly better than he'd do on a Blackbolt (minimum kills, tons of deaths via crashing, or getting shot down because of tunnel-flying), but he'd still be laughable, especially in tight maneuver fights (sats/turn-fights).

 

Also, disagree that light lasers suck. They're awesome. Harder to handle than burst-fire, but still very, *very* solid, even with Telemetry instead of Overcharge.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Helig

[NalRethak]

If this doesn't prove that skill is more important than gear, I don't know what will.

 

Flashfire is not a basic fighter.

Try again, with an unupgraded scout or strike next time.

 

As stated above, your first game posted doesn't prove much considering how many of them have 0.

 

Skill over gear? Reamins to be proven. As the only "skill" I can find in the game is:

- Stop and shoot.

 

Skills?

LOL

[Helig]

Skill over gear? Reamins to be proven. As the only "skill" I can find in the game is:

- Stop and shoot.

 

Skills?

LOL

I bet you get to visit mothership often and know the fighter maintainance droids by names.

[Svarthrafn]

I bet you get to visit mothership often and know the fighter maintainance droids by names.

 

C´mon, you put the mouse pointer on the aiming reticle, and try not to fly in a straight line. Let's not kid ourselves. This game *is* pretty easy.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Svarthrafn

[Helig]

C´mon, you put the mouse pointer on the aiming reticle, and try not to fly in a straight line. Let's not kid ourselves. This game *is* pretty easy.

Then I wonder why so many are still so bad at it

[Svarthrafn]

Then I wonder why so many are still so bad at it

 

I've wondered that myself...

[dancezwithnubz]

Also, disagree that light lasers suck. They're awesome. Harder to handle than burst-fire, but still very, *very* solid, even with Telemetry instead of Overcharge.

+1

i use light lasers on a blackbolt. with careful power management, i'm never running out of power with solid damage in close.

 

on the OP: a good pilot with some experience can make the stock birds sing. i prefer the blackbolt over the sting despite having flown a sting extensively.

Edited January 9, 2014 by dancezwithnubz

[Armonddd]

First, where I disagree with you:

 

Good questions. Thanks for asking.

 

To literally every post in the thread after this one: thanks for your interest, but I simply don't have time before class to keep reading. Will catch up afterwards.

 

1) You did this with the FotM ship carrying the FotM weapon. Both unupgraded, yes, fair point. But why haven't you taken the basic scout or strike fighter, if you wanted to prove skill > gear? Well, you said yourself that "being stuck with light lasers really sucks" ...

 

I didn't roll the alt with the intention of proving skill over gear; my apologies if you got that impression. I rolled it for reasons including goofing around in GSF, and I have the most fun in GSF with my Ocula. (This is also why I didn't give any information about other ships in the game; I simply wasn't paying attention to them, and I took all the screenshots after the match ended.)

 

I will also argue that part of skill is figuring out what build you should bring to the table. Someone who comes to an operation or flashpoint with a terrible allocation of skill points has more problems than simply not knowing his rotation. Likewise, if I were flying anything other than the best components on the best ship, I'm demonstrating a lack of skill.

 

If I were to repeat the experiment with, say, light lasers (and the few upgrades I've bought since those matches), I'd be giving myself a competitive handicap, the point of which is to even the playing field. That's not what I'm trying to show - I'm trying to show that a skilled pilot is still better than the competition, not that he can gimp himself and show up even.

 

2) The first match was against complete newbies (including one AFKer). You named two players you know - one of them was in your own team and with the best stats second to you, the other was the (by far) best player of the opposing team. Also, no info about what types of ships were in the match.

 

I anticipated this, thus the second match. I can't say for sure that the other players had more upgrades than I, but I'm willing to bet they've played more than the six games I did.

 

3) In the second match, the only impressive statistics of yours are damage and hit ratio. To get them both that high does take skill, I fully admit that. But for me it more says something about the strength of the Burst Laser (and again, in the hands of a good pilot, props to you) compared to other weapons.

 

In a match where you're being farmed on a ship that's not doing what you're used to it doing, it's really hard to get kills. Now, I grant you that someone like Toe or Silentwinter could probably have gotten half a dozen kills that match, but I'm not them, unfortunately.

 

That match went something like... Approach satellite, blow up turret, throw off pot shots on anyone nearby to provide pressure, blow up more turrets, visit respawn cafe.

 

I won't deny that burst lasers are the best designed lasers for our current format - I won't say "the most powerful" because they won't be in other formats. There's a reason why I picked them over the other options. But, as I've argued above, recognizing those powerful elements is part of skill. Back when the game was new, people were making arguments for crit and surge and alacrity all being more important than each other. The people with the best understanding and experience did some math and presented some models that confirmed their gut feelings, and now we have an answer. Were they unskilled and simply abusing mechanics because they stacked what was then the best stat? I wouldn't say so.

 

Now where I agree with you:

Skill over Gear. Definitely. But in my opinion most people already agree on that. However, that doesn't mean that skill completely negates gear.

 

Yeah. Silent blew me up a couple times in his bad ship, because I simply couldn't pop him before he popped me first. (The turrets helped, mind you.)

[mattycutts]

skill for damn sure plays the biggest part in it, mods help ofc, but as a similar person that rolled gsf to ALL my chars its so easy to be one of the best with unmodified ships, only shows when u come against equal skilled players with there best ships, but so many people i know to have maxed ships and i can blow them away on my unmodified scout, gunship, fighter (fighter little tougher least favourate ship but still a decent player).

 

and one person can alter every apsect of how a game can turn out if skiled enough.

[Danylia]

I will also argue that part of skill is figuring out what build you should bring to the table. Someone who comes to an operation or flashpoint with a terrible allocation of skill points has more problems than simply not knowing his rotation. Likewise, if I were flying anything other than the best components on the best ship, I'm demonstrating a lack of skill.

 

If I were to repeat the experiment with, say, light lasers (and the few upgrades I've bought since those matches), I'd be giving myself a competitive handicap, the point of which is to even the playing field. That's not what I'm trying to show - I'm trying to show that a skilled pilot is still better than the competition, not that he can gimp himself and show up even.

Oh, I completely agree with that (Intermezzo: I now realize that calling the ship and weapon "FotM" was somewhat unfair and I apologize for that. What I meant is "perceived as strongest at the moment").

That said. If there is one specific loadout/combination which is "the best", then in my opinion something should be done about it (this isn't specific to GSF of course, one look at Class or PVP forum proves it). The solutions would be either tweaks, or - as you wrote - new map/game modes which will (slightly) favor the other ships and loadouts.

Let's hope January 14th brings one, the other, or both.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Danylia

[Armonddd]

C´mon, you put the mouse pointer on the aiming reticle, and try not to fly in a straight line. Let's not kid ourselves. This game *is* pretty easy.

 

Do you never circle satellites to prevent a cap? Lock on with missiles? Dodge missile locks? Dodge missile locks without burning a cooldown? Fight in head to heads? Kill people in head to heads with retro thrusters?

 

There's really a surprising amount of depth to the game given how simple it first appears. It's no chess or go, but it's definitely not shallow.

 

Flashfire is not a basic fighter.

Try again, with an unupgraded scout or strike next time.

 

This isn't World of Tanks, where different ships within the same class are better than others.

 

I might entertain this request at some point, but I don't find the Novadive especially fun, and the Starguard always feels gimped until I get both lasers fully upgraded.

 

Also, disagree that light lasers suck. They're awesome. Harder to handle than burst-fire, but still very, *very* solid, even with Telemetry instead of Overcharge.

 

+1

i use light lasers on a blackbolt. with careful power management, i'm never running out of power with solid damage in close.

 

I feel like lights try to fill a void between rapids and burst, except whenever I try to use them as rapids they have all the disadvantages of bursts and vice versa. A solution in search of a problem, IMO.

 

Oh, I completely agree with that (Intermezzo: I now realize that calling the ship and weapon "FotM" was somewhat unfair and I apologize for that. What I meant is "perceived as strongest at the moment").

That said. If there is one specific loadout/combination which is "the best", then in my opinion something should be done about it (this isn't specific to GSF of course, one look at Class or PVP forum proves it). The solutions would be either tweaks, or - as you wrote - new map/game modes which will (slightly) favor the other ships and loadouts.

Let's hope January 14th brings one, the other, or both.

 

I agree that the Flashfire/Sting are probably the strongest ship at the moment (side note, don't see why it's unfair to call them FOTM when they... kind of are). Burst lasers are perfect for dogfighting, Distortion Field is an amazing button, and the scout's increased engine power efficiency are all huge upper hands... in this format.

 

I'm hopeful that we'll see three new gameplay formats, either next week or next month. I think modifying the components at the same time would be a bad idea - they should probably wait and see what other surprises pop up first before attempting balance changes.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Armonddd

[ptwonline]

I don't think you can prove skill > gear or vice versa, because they are different and will have different effects depending on relative levels. Skill is GENERALLY more important, but with big enough gear gaps gear will often overtake skill. I look at it this way:

 

Skill is additive

Gear is mutiplicative

Therefore gear is a modifier based on your skill level

 

Basically, if you are very skilled you will do pretty well no matter your gear level. But there are limits.

 

On the other hand, if you are very unkilled then having good gear only helps you by so much, and helps you less than it does a skilled player.

 

For example, take 2 pilots (all numbers are arbitrary to illustrate the principle):

Pilot A = 4 skill

Pilot B = 7 skill

 

Give pilot A better gear a slight gear advantage, and so a 1.5 multiplier, and pilot B no extra gear so just 1.0 mutiplier. Now you have:

 

Pilot A = 4 x 1.5 = 6.0

Pilot B = 7 x 1.0 = 7.0

 

Pilot B is still better, so skill > gear right? Not so fast.

 

Give Pilot A bigger gear advantage. Say a 2.0 multiplier vs the 1.0 mutiplier.

 

Pilot A = 4 x 2.0 = 8.0

Pilot B = 7 x 1.0 = 7.0

 

Now the less skilled pilot is better because he has better gear. So which is more important: skill or gear? Again, I don't think there is a simple answer since one modifies the other. Generally speaking skill is more important if there is a wide skill gap or a narrow gear gap, and gear is more important if there is a narrower skill gap or a wider gear gap.

Edited January 9, 2014 by ptwonline

[ptwonline]

Then I wonder why so many are still so bad at it

 

Many people have no natural affinity for flying, and will lose their bearings easily.

[NalRethak]

I bet you get to visit mothership often and know the fighter maintainance droids by names.

 

Then you would lose your bet. I love to kill those sitting ducks. I still don't see no skill in this.

 

I will also argue that part of skill is figuring out what build you should bring to the table. Someone who comes to an operation or flashpoint with a terrible allocation of skill points has more problems than simply not knowing his rotation. Likewise, if I were flying anything other than the best components on the best ship, I'm demonstrating a lack of skill.

 

You call skill the fact to know what to embark as weapons or not.

I call this common sense. Not skill.Or being smart, whatever, but no skills...

 

Do you never circle satellites to prevent a cap? Lock on with missiles? Dodge missile locks? Dodge missile locks without burning a cooldown? Fight in head to heads? Kill people in head to heads with retro thrusters?

 

There's really a surprising amount of depth to the game given how simple it first appears. It's no chess or go, but it's definitely not shallow.

 

I can and do all of these when needed. But that's still really shallow as evasive maneuvers are used as special comps. And that thrusters is your main way to evade something. Just like sprint before they made it to allow people to go faster, but they aren't permanent so the map doesn't look to small. Right now,, manoeuvers are really limited for a pilot. Lack of a stick.

 

 

 

This isn't World of Tanks, where different ships within the same class are better than others.

 

I might entertain this request at some point, but I don't find the Novadive especially fun, and the Starguard always feels gimped until I get both lasers fully upgraded.

 

If they are the same, why isn't the novadive fun?

 

I agree that the Flashfire/Sting are probably the strongest ship at the moment (side note, don't see why it's unfair to call them FOTM when they... kind of are). Burst lasers are perfect for dogfighting, Distortion Field is an amazing button, and the scout's increased engine power efficiency are all huge upper hands... in this format.

 

So now you state that Flash is the best fighter of the moment, but you disagreed with my fact saying that it's not a basic ship by saying it's the same as the nova, but still is the best of the moment and funnier than the nova. But both are the same, thus your theory of skill over gear works.

 

But obviously, considering the first quote I did from you in this post, we disagree on the definition of skill, thus we'll never agree.

[Helig]

Then you would lose your bet. I love to kill those sitting ducks. I still don't see no skill in this.

I think I'd win - I was commenting exactly on this "advanced combat maneuver" called "stop and shoot", which the person I replied to seemed to consider "the only skill he could find in the game".

 

Unless you were being sarcastic about that.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Helig

[Itkovian]

[on Novadive and Flashfire meant to be balanced to each other, and not different "tiers" like in WoT.]

 

If they are the same, why isn't the novadive fun?

 

It's a matter of taste, pretty much, but also because the Flashfire currently happens to have the best weapon in the game and the Novadive doesn't (Burst Lasers).

 

But here's the thing: Bursts are not MEANT to be the best weapon. All weapons within a role are meant to be equal, and you can clearly see that when looking at the different stats. They just have different strengths and weaknesses, but overall they are balanced.

 

The problem right now is the current gameplay heavily favours the Burst Lasers, so it's the best weapon in the game right now (it also has the best upgrades for a gun, IMO, which probably could use some downgrading, but stat-wise it is meant to be balanced). Since the Flashfire/Sting can mount burst lasers, that makes it the best scout for now.

 

But the fact is that on paper at least, the nova and flash are meant to be relatively equal. What makes the flash so much better is basically due to Burst Lasers. That said, I love the nova, myself, which I run as a pure scout (engine power converter shields *grin*), it's quite useful for capping and holding turrets, and wonderful for hunting gunships.

[NalRethak]

I think I'd win - I was commenting exactly on this "advanced combat maneuver" called "stop and shoot", which the person I replied to seemed to consider "the only skill he could find in the game".

 

Unless you were being sarcastic about that.

 

Yes, so far, the only real skill I cna see from other pilot is mostly "stop and shoot".

In space combat, when you talk about skill, I think about people being able to make sharp turns to get in my 6. Able to counter with a barrel and a quick evade my locking on them. Flying just above the object trying to lure someone else into a crash, make high precise shoot from far away, or in difficult angles in the middle of a dogfight.

 

Kill your engines is a nice technique if you have someone in your six, to get behind him, as it requires training b/c if you fail the guy behind will just crash into your fighter (not that Collision detection exist in GSF anyway).

 

But here, that's not what we're talking about. People stop in space because they don't know how to aim, they don't know how to make sharp turns, they don't know how to fly, so they just stop and shoot, delivering as much power as they can, hit the distorsion field if they have it, and pray for the opponent to not have the distorsion and have less firepower than you. And this to me is definately not skill.

[Svarthrafn]

Well they don't just stop and shoot. They also pulse their engines so that they don't get a rotation penalty. Still pretty cheesy. Edited January 10, 2014 by Svarthrafn

[Armonddd]

I don't think you can prove skill > gear or vice versa, because they are different and will have different effects depending on relative levels. Skill is GENERALLY more important, but with big enough gear gaps gear will often overtake skill. I look at it this way:

 

Skill is additive

Gear is mutiplicative

Therefore gear is a modifier based on your skill level

 

The gap in power between different levels of gear is so small compared to the gap in power between different levels of skill. I'm pretty sure you have it backwards - skill is the multiplicative factor, and gear is the mostly additive, maybe slightly logarithmic factor.

 

You call skill the fact to know what to embark as weapons or not.

I call this common sense. Not skill.Or being smart, whatever, but no skills...

 

Analyzing what tools you have available and figuring out which ones are most useful for the job at hand is a skill in any context you care to mention. It only seems like common sense to you because you've practiced it enough that it's second nature.

 

If they are the same, why isn't the novadive fun?

 

With no equipped components, the Novadive has the exact same stats as the Flashfire. The components available to the two ships are very different, and generally the ones available to the Flashfire are better. Probably the biggest reason I don't enjoy playing the Novadive is because when I first picked up the Blackbolt I was hilariously bad at using rocket pods. Maybe I'm better at that now, I dunno. But, as it is, I find the Flashfire fun and the Novadive not. I might experiment with my Blackbolt some, but my republic alt has no interest in a Novadive right now.

 

So now you state that Flash is the best fighter of the moment, but you disagreed with my fact saying that it's not a basic ship by saying it's the same as the nova, but still is the best of the moment and funnier than the nova. But both are the same, thus your theory of skill over gear works.

 

Like I said before and like another poster pointed out, they're different ships, but they're designed to be balanced approximately equally. And you have to take what I say is best with a grain of salt - there's a Death Squadron member who flies the Blackbolt exclusively and always does better than I. I dunno how he does it, he's just amazing like that.

 

I don't think it's right to call ships "basic" or "not basic". Again, they're all roughly balanced to the same level. While the Novadive and Star Guard are unlocked by default, you can't really say they're "basic" because of that. It would lead to questions like, is the gunship a "basic" ship? If so, why don't I have it? If not, why do a bunch of people get it by default?

 

But obviously, considering the first quote I did from you in this post, we disagree on the definition of skill, thus we'll never agree.

 

I don't think that's true - that's why we're having a discussion, after all.

 

[on Novadive and Flashfire meant to be balanced to each other, and not different "tiers" like in WoT.]

 

<3

 

Yes, so far, the only real skill I cna see from other pilot is mostly "stop and shoot".

In space combat, when you talk about skill, I think about people being able to make sharp turns to get in my 6. Able to counter with a barrel and a quick evade my locking on them. Flying just above the object trying to lure someone else into a crash, make high precise shoot from far away, or in difficult angles in the middle of a dogfight.

 

Kill your engines is a nice technique if you have someone in your six, to get behind him, as it requires training b/c if you fail the guy behind will just crash into your fighter (not that Collision detection exist in GSF anyway).

 

But here, that's not what we're talking about. People stop in space because they don't know how to aim, they don't know how to make sharp turns, they don't know how to fly, so they just stop and shoot, delivering as much power as they can, hit the distorsion field if they have it, and pray for the opponent to not have the distorsion and have less firepower than you. And this to me is definately not skill.

 

You contradict yourself here. First you say the only skill you (mostly) see is in other pilots is when they hit x to turret (which is a bad idea, IMO, and I've gotten hundreds of kills on people who do it), then at the end you say that people who kill their throttle in the hopes of landing a kill aren't using any skill. I'm sure that's not what you meant to say, so would you mind clarifying?

[NalRethak]

You contradict yourself here. First you say the only skill you (mostly) see is in other pilots is when they hit x to turret (which is a bad idea, IMO, and I've gotten hundreds of kills on people who do it), then at the end you say that people who kill their throttle in the hopes of landing a kill aren't using any skill. I'm sure that's not what you meant to say, so would you mind clarifying?

 

I'm not contradicting myself.

I don't find fun to have people stoping and shooting because they just don't know how to fly and shoot at the same time.

I have no problem with chasing someone, get in his six, and see him kill his engine to get behind me, in which case, it's pure skill and guts. It have yet to happen to me in GS. That's a whole different story to me.

 

Here, in GS, people just stand still, trying to take advantage of objects and such. hid under a satellite or whatever, because they just can't shoot. That's why in a dogfight you'll see them stop as they turn because they don't know what to do in a pure dogfight. No smart moves, nothing, just trying to take advantage of the fact that you can still stand in open space and evade perfectly aimed shots.

[Armonddd]

Here, in GS, people just stand still, trying to take advantage of objects and such. hid under a satellite or whatever, because they just can't shoot. That's why in a dogfight you'll see them stop as they turn because they don't know what to do in a pure dogfight. No smart moves, nothing, just trying to take advantage of the fact that you can still stand in open space and evade perfectly aimed shots.

 

So blow them up? Come at them from a different angle, pop some cooldowns, make them dead. Not hard.