When matches consist of 6+ Flashfires/Stings...

[Sharee]

I find the complaints about cluster missiles silly, really.

 

I can fire one missile every 4.3 seconds(1.3s lockon+ 3s reload). The missile hits for 683+205=888 damage.

 

888 / 4.3 = 206.5 DPS.

 

The LOWEST DPS of all the primary weapons is Ion Cannon hitting a ship's hull, do you know how much DPS it does?

 

206 DPS.

 

In other words, a fully upgraded cluster missile does as much against it's best target as a totally unupgraded ion cannon against the worst target.

 

They are good at supplementing main gun damage, and making bad pilots nervous. That's it.

[Lymain]

I find the complaints about cluster missiles silly, really.

 

I can fire one missile every 4.3 seconds(1.3s lockon+ 3s reload). The missile hits for 683+205=888 damage.

 

888 / 4.3 = 206.5 DPS.

 

The LOWEST DPS of all the primary weapons is Ion Cannon hitting a ship's hull, do you know how much DPS it does?

 

206 DPS.

 

In other words, a fully upgraded cluster missile does as much against it's best target as a totally unupgraded ion cannon against the worst target.

 

They are good at supplementing main gun damage, and making bad pilots nervous. That's it.

 

The point is that clusters have 100% hit rate while blasters (and rocket pods) hit much less often, so they don't reach their advertised DPS.

 

But really, it's pointless to even talk about how it looks on paper when you can just try a different loadout yourself. If you find rocket pods or sab probe to be even close to as effective as cluster missiles, then I would guess you have an unusual playstyle/skillset.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Lymain

[Svarthrafn]

DPS has absolutely nothing to do with being successful in shooting down other players. Burst damage is where it is at. Unless you are flying against a poor pilot (who you will shoot down no matter what you're packing), you are better off with a weapon that dumps more damage into the target per shot, to make up for shorter engagement windows.

 

This is why Burst Lasers are so popular right now.

[Vandicus]

I wouldn't mind playing against more scouts. Certainly preferable to gunships.

[DarthVindictus]

I find the complaints about cluster missiles silly, really.

 

I can fire one missile every 4.3 seconds(1.3s lockon+ 3s reload). The missile hits for 683+205=888 damage.

 

888 / 4.3 = 206.5 DPS.

 

The LOWEST DPS of all the primary weapons is Ion Cannon hitting a ship's hull, do you know how much DPS it does?

 

206 DPS.

 

In other words, a fully upgraded cluster missile does as much against it's best target as a totally unupgraded ion cannon against the worst target.

 

They are good at supplementing main gun damage, and making bad pilots nervous. That's it.

 

They supplement gun damage and in open space they are RELIABLE damage. Humping satellites or asteroids they are less reliable, but even around the mesas they are fairly reliable damage vs the longer lock on times/cooldowns of all the other missiles.

 

Concussion missiles pack a punch, however, with a 2.7s lockon and what is it, 7s cooldown? It takes them longer to get off missiles, they result in lower dps than upgraded cluster missiles. That's the thing with rocket pods too, you can fire them fairly fast, but they're only 400 damage and pilots will miss on about half of them because of the flight time and awful tracking penalty for them, unless dead center on a still target you're only going to hit 1/3 of them .

 

Upgraded clusters are the most reliable secondary weapon for strikes and flashfires/stings. Rocket pods are only really good for a surprise burst on a still target, and turrets.

 

Also as far as the evasion goes... I've had it, to where a flashfire was flying directly into me, while I was charging a shot, aimed dead at them center of HUD at 7000m, and missed. Evasion can have a big impact.

[ptwonline]

The real problem, IMO, is that Strike Fighters are rendered mostly obsolete by the mechanics of GSF. At least in Domination.

 

It's so hard to hit enemy targets that you really need a huge burst damage ability, and Flashfires/Gunships win there. Mobility and maneuverability is also huge, and Scouts win there again. Oh, and so many abilities bypass shields and armor, so the extra defenses of the Strike Fighter are mitigated quite a bit.

 

Perhaps future maps will have more scenarios where higher shielding and armor levels are relevant, such as making more attack runs on NPC sites. But until then, it's Gunships and Scouts that dominate.

[Sharee]

The point is that clusters have 100% hit rate while blasters (and rocket pods) hit much less often, so they don't reach their advertised DPS.

 

Hit rate is only 100% assuming that 1) you can get a lock and 2) the enemy does not use an evasive maneuver

Even with 1.3sec, locks can be difficult to achieve when dogfighting around satellites or when there are lots of small LOS blocking objects (like around the mid kuat mesa satellite )

 

Further, to get the 200 DPS calculated you need to be able to do the above over and over and over. That's just not gonna happen.

 

And while you are correct that lasers don't reach the advertised DPS either, even losing 50% of their advertised DPS still has them outdamage the cluster missile by 3 to 1, even if you assume you can spam missiles and they all hit.

 

Light laser DPS: ~1200, half of that is ~600. Cluster missile DPS: ~200.

 

Even if you miss 5 laser shots of every 6 fired, and you spam missiles nonstop and they all hit, even so the missiles just about manage to catch up in DPS.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Sharee

[Brilo]

OMG STATS

 

Roughly 97% of players that think Scouts are balanced increase their chance of being considered "cool" by 10.3% of their US peers, 11.2% in the EU, and 12.5% in African and Asian countries.

85% of scouts do almost no damage when you think they're cute.

Scouts can do 200 damage to satellites if they concentrate hard and Earth's moon is waxing.

Strike Fighters are 60.4% better than Scouts when the Democrats have a majority in Congress.

If you put 30% of a Gunship in 70% of a Strike Fighter, you can cook a tasty falafel.

If you do exactly 42 damage to a Scout with a Quad laser while it has less than 40% shields, rainbows will shoot out of a random posters' butt.

64% of the time you kill a Scout a Nazi gets away from justice and a kitten dies in a fire.

1.263% of statistics are true.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Brilo

[Helig]

Don't forget "99.9% of statistics on the Internet are made up on the spot."

[Brilo]

Don't forget "99.9% of statistics on the Internet are made up on the spot."

 

You're gonna need to source that there statistic buddy, I'm not sure it's believable.

[Zoom_VI]

You're gonna need to source that there statistic buddy, I'm not sure it's believable.

 

Helig, When matches consist of 6+ Flashfires/Stings, #34. SWTOR: GSF Forums. 9 Jan. 2014. Web. 9 Jan 2014

[Brilo]

Helig, When matches consist of 6+ Flashfires/Stings, #34. SWTOR: GSF Forums. 9 Jan. 2014. Web. 9 Jan 2014

 

By Jove, it's in print! Legit.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Brilo

[Cashal]

Ebon Hawk Peeps who think the Flashfire is OP.

 

Run a Flashfire, and Ill run a different ship. . . and I'll win over you more often than not

 

 

Lesson to remember:

Every ship has a counter build against it. Even the Sting/Flashfire

[DarthVindictus]

You know, it occured to me, that if they fixed Dampening, and let it put Flashfires/Stings needing to get within 6000m to spot other ships, it MIGHT kill their FOTM frenzy that is currently happening.

 

Right now people's solutions to flashfires/stings are "outnumber them" and "snipe them from 15000m" which.. would sound like an idea on paper, but with dampening broke, they see you as soon as you get within 15000m, meaning that with a barrel roll, they're right in your face before you can charge a shot, happens all the time.

 

With dampening working, you'd get off that shot before they could charge up in your face, and probably kill them if they try to fly straight at you, you might even finish them off with burst lasers.

 

But now.. when they can see you that easy.. nope.. as soon as that red box/triangle comes up on their screen, they tab or hit E, see gunship, and barrel roll directly at it.

 

Dampening working would mean Novadrivess would be just as popular if not more popular than flashfires.

[Zoom_VI]

You know, it occured to me, that if they fixed Dampening, and let it put Flashfires/Stings needing to get within 6000m to spot other ships, it MIGHT kill their FOTM frenzy that is currently happening.

 

Right now people's solutions to flashfires/stings are "outnumber them" and "snipe them from 15000m" which.. would sound like an idea on paper, but with dampening broke, they see you as soon as you get within 15000m, meaning that with a barrel roll, they're right in your face before you can charge a shot, happens all the time.

 

With dampening working, you'd get off that shot before they could charge up in your face, and probably kill them if they try to fly straight at you, you might even finish them off with burst lasers.

 

But now.. when they can see you that easy.. nope.. as soon as that red box/triangle comes up on their screen, they tab or hit E, see gunship, and barrel roll directly at it.

 

Dampening working would mean Novadrivess would be just as popular if not more popular than flashfires.

 

Yeah and I'm sure all those strikes that won't be able to see any ship until its right in their face will just love this "solution"

 

Balancing does not mean "nerfing so that no one will ever play this ship again."

 

Also you can out dogfight a Sting, I've done it on my Nova and I've done it on my Pike. Please Stings are not godmodes except to bad gunships who think they are better than they really are.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[Arkerus]

With flashfires it's not one aspect or the other that makes them OP, it's the COMBINATION of reliable lock on missiles, an extremely effective burst that comes with using both their system cooldown and their copilot skill, the natural mobility and speed, and evasion.

 

It's like they literally got the best of all worlds but health/shield pool, that's essentially it.

 

It's just insane design, when every other ship has more clear weaknesses and limitations. Strikers can't get burst lasers, don't have overcharge, only have a little bit more blaster range than the scouts, are slower and less maneuverable, and have the worst sensors in the game.

 

T1 Scouts have pretty bad lock on missiles that are mostly just good for turrets, sabotage probes I think make the most sense for a scout secondary but nobody really uses them, because rocket pods give them more damage, but rocket pods are dumb fire weapons with a slow rate of fire so they're not all that dangerous unless you're almost point blank range on someone, they have utility cooldowns rather than offensive, and limited laser selection. They're fast, maneuverable, have great sensors, and utility, but they have low shields and hull health, and have low firepower that more or less makes them good harassers, but not as good of killers. What a scout should be. They can be first to the satellites and cap, they can find gunships and harass them, maybe kill some of them, point out all the enemies to their allies, and harry strikers leading them away from satellites into open space where they have the maneuverability advantage.

 

Gunships have good firepower from a distance, but have weaker hulls/shields (remember, a gunship's default shield does not have a -30% shield capacity penalty, a strike fighter's default shield does.. but if a gunship is using a -30% shield capacity shield like distortion field, they have less shields than a quick charge shield striker, and much less than a directional shield striker) than strike fighters (unless specced to use reinforcement armor, gives them 50 more hull health than strikers.), but higher than scouts, and the worst mobility, and no lock on missiles. They have burst lasers, but in a fight, even a straight joust with no maneuverability to be considered, they'll lose to a scout because the scout has a secondary weapon adding damage, so a gunship's best bet is to make a run for it..... having the lowest speed, and worst engine consumption.

 

 

Yes, I can bypass and one shot a flashfire, but the rest of that match that flashfire will be specifically hunting me, and I'll have 1-2 other flashfires on me most of the match too. I may end a match with under 2 deaths, but in a match with 4+ flashfires, I also have under 5 kills and under 10 assists as well, because I spend most of the match running and hitting barrel roll basically off cooldown with incessant missile lock on beeping.

 

I agree with all of this, generally speaking.

 

And the point I was making earlier, that people seemed to have missed, is that the WEAKNESS you lay out with the health/shield pool isn't really a weakness because of evasion in this game.

 

As you said, the flashfire has the best of almost all worlds...and then tack on evasion of scouts. Their perceived weakness isn't even a weakness.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Arkerus

[Svarthrafn]

Passive evasion isn't a problem, and can be overcome by selecting higher accuracy weapons and the proper crew members if you feel it is a problem for you. Distortion Field is probably too strong though.

 

I use heavies, an accuracy crewman, and a copilot with the reduced evasion active ability. If I pop the copilot ability, I can hit scouts that use Distortion Field in head-ons (albeit only about 1 in 4 or 5 shots). In regular fights, I rarely get misses due to evasion.

 

Scouts are what I started in, and are probably out of balance, because hopping in a scout is basically easy-mode. As for what it is that makes them that way, I have no idea. But it isn't (passive) evasion.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Svarthrafn

[Brilo]

Ebon Hawk Peeps who think the Flashfire is OP.

 

Run a Flashfire, and Ill run a different ship. . . and I'll win over you more often than not

 

Lesson to remember:

Every ship has a counter build against it. Even the Sting/Flashfire

 

I accept that challenge

What's the counter for my Flashfire build? =)

It's not exactly easy to arrange a fight between the two of us, but I'm willing to try if you are.

[Zoom_VI]

Ugh there is no such thing as a Overpowered ship, only overpowered components, call for nerfs of whatever component is causing the issue, don't ask for the whole frigging class to be nerfed.

[Camelpockets]

With flashfires it's not one aspect or the other that makes them OP, it's the COMBINATION of reliable lock on missiles, an extremely effective burst that comes with using both their system cooldown and their copilot skill, the natural mobility and speed, and evasion.

 

It's like they literally got the best of all worlds but health/shield pool, that's essentially it.

 

It's just insane design, when every other ship has more clear weaknesses and limitations. Strikers can't get burst lasers, don't have overcharge, only have a little bit more blaster range than the scouts, are slower and less maneuverable, and have the worst sensors in the game.

 

T1 Scouts have pretty bad lock on missiles that are mostly just good for turrets, sabotage probes I think make the most sense for a scout secondary but nobody really uses them, because rocket pods give them more damage, but rocket pods are dumb fire weapons with a slow rate of fire so they're not all that dangerous unless you're almost point blank range on someone, they have utility cooldowns rather than offensive, and limited laser selection. They're fast, maneuverable, have great sensors, and utility, but they have low shields and hull health, and have low firepower that more or less makes them good harassers, but not as good of killers. What a scout should be. They can be first to the satellites and cap, they can find gunships and harass them, maybe kill some of them, point out all the enemies to their allies, and harry strikers leading them away from satellites into open space where they have the maneuverability advantage.

 

Gunships have good firepower from a distance, but have weaker hulls/shields (remember, a gunship's default shield does not have a -30% shield capacity penalty, a strike fighter's default shield does.. but if a gunship is using a -30% shield capacity shield like distortion field, they have less shields than a quick charge shield striker, and much less than a directional shield striker) than strike fighters (unless specced to use reinforcement armor, gives them 50 more hull health than strikers.), but higher than scouts, and the worst mobility, and no lock on missiles. They have burst lasers, but in a fight, even a straight joust with no maneuverability to be considered, they'll lose to a scout because the scout has a secondary weapon adding damage, so a gunship's best bet is to make a run for it..... having the lowest speed, and worst engine consumption.

 

 

Yes, I can bypass and one shot a flashfire, but the rest of that match that flashfire will be specifically hunting me, and I'll have 1-2 other flashfires on me most of the match too. I may end a match with under 2 deaths, but in a match with 4+ flashfires, I also have under 5 kills and under 10 assists as well, because I spend most of the match running and hitting barrel roll basically off cooldown with incessant missile lock on beeping.

 

I do somewhat agree with the Flashfire being op, but that doesn't quite mean that people can only do well in this ship.

 

Strikes: Its much more about timing that anything going head to head with any type of fighter. Fighting gunships, depends on how fast they run away, or if they even do run away. Just need to watch the burst lasers if they have them. If so, simply barrel roll by and poke them from a range without getting sniped, (simply poke, move, poke, repeat), or run up close fast, turn slightly and retro thruster back, blowing an offensive on the way. If they decide to run, either chase them down with afterburners or another barrel roll, but just watch the engine energy. If you run out, then find something to hide behind and wait for it to recover, then chase or leave him be depending on distance. They will have the drop if they're at max range. Against strikes, simply watch the missiles, and attack at a distance that will counter it. Most likely it will be clusters, so try to snipe them down with concussions or a longer range blaster, then switch primary/secondary (depending on the fighter) and blow cooldowns as needed as you close the distance. Against scouts, watch their offensives, lasers, and evasion pop. I do tend to see them pop everything if they can, so just fly around for a bit and LOS him so the clusters don't hit, then pop full CDs and take him down. (If they have burst, stay 3000m+ if possible. Otherwise that will kill)

 

Novadive: Pretty much the same thing as the strike, though requires more accuracy if you use the rocket pods. The plasma damage and hull penetration does come in handy. These do have CDs that are just as reliable as the Flashfires as well. Targeting telemetry gives a crit damage and chance boost at the bottom of the tree. In turn for the rapid shots, you can possibly gain up to 900 points in damage per round (maxed light lasers) plus a crit chance on the missiles. Against other scouts, simply time evasion (maybe 6 seconds would be good if they use retro thrusters) or wait for their cooldowns to wear off and then shut them down with yours. Against gunships, normally I find myself lucky as some tend to stay still due to no lock ons. Though with the engines with the Novadive, they are fairly simple to catch if they do run, with or without barrel roll. Just make sure he isn't pointing at you. Against strikes, make sure you have a cooldown up and/or evade lock-ons. Then chase as needed.

 

Gunships: Ion's can come in very handy for running from any ship, as well as the interdiction drive for the slows. Always park yourself where you have a clear enough area to snipe from, but a place to LOS other fighters if they get close and shoot. Against strikes and fighters: Snipe them as they come to you, then move depending on damage taken or a lock-on. If you can, shoot them with an Ion to drain engines or to slow them, or use the interdiction drive, then turn around and shoot if they are 10000m+ away from you. If being chased by multiple people, then just fly and LOS. Find one guy to target down, and attempt to get him alone, (or at least the only one in your view) shoot then move. Hopefully in time someone will see a 3v1 and help. Against other GS, just make sure that you get the drop on him and not vice versa. If the latter occurs, then run and pray he doesn't hit you again

 

I agree that all classes have their strengths and weaknesses, others more weaknesses then others, but if flown correctly, you can survive encounters with each of these ships. The only thing that maybe lacking is damage totals or objective points.

 

(FYI this is only referring to the setups I currently have on my ships, and so far are the only setups I've used, so if someone uses different abilities and can make them work please let me know. Always willing to try new stuff.)

[Camelpockets]

Delete this post. This was a copy of the one above. Somehow reposted :S Edited January 9, 2014 by Camelpockets

[Lymain]

Ugh there is no such thing as a Overpowered ship, only overpowered components, call for nerfs of whatever component is causing the issue, don't ask for the whole frigging class to be nerfed.

 

So if Flashfires could use railguns and drop bomber drones (in addition to everything they already do) your solution would be to nerf those components instead of the ship?

[Zoom_VI]

So if Flashfires could use railguns and drop bomber drones (in addition to everything they already do) your solution would be to nerf those components instead of the ship?

 

Can we at least keep the hypotheticals within the realm of reason?

[DarthVindictus]

Passive evasion isn't a problem, and can be overcome by selecting higher accuracy weapons and the proper crew members if you feel it is a problem for you. Distortion Field is probably too strong though.

 

I use heavies, an accuracy crewman, and a copilot with the reduced evasion active ability. If I pop the copilot ability, I can hit scouts that use Distortion Field in head-ons (albeit only about 1 in 4 or 5 shots). In regular fights, I rarely get misses due to evasion.

 

Scouts are what I started in, and are probably out of balance, because hopping in a scout is basically easy-mode. As for what it is that makes them that way, I have no idea. But it isn't (passive) evasion.

 

Look, I get that you want to claim your favorite class of ships is balanced, but base evasion of 41% is very high, and increasing accuracy of weapons through upgrades and companion, you're increasing accuracy by no more than 10-11%, in most cases 8-9%. That leaves them with substantial evade, you have not offset it by that much.

 

The only weapons that have a base of over 100% accuracy to start with are burst lasers at 500m (which, at 500m, even against still targets you miss most of the time because of the game engine or something), 3000m II think 109%? not sure if that's upgraded with crew and upgrades or not) and ion railgun has an accuracy of 105% I think.

 

Even using those, you have a substantial penalty from their passive evade.

 

It is a large advantage.

[DarthVindictus]

Ugh there is no such thing as a Overpowered ship, only overpowered components, call for nerfs of whatever component is causing the issue, don't ask for the whole frigging class to be nerfed.

 

The individual components are not really overpowered though, except bypass. I think everyone can agree that bypass is ridiculous, this is coming from a gunship that can use it to 1 shot scouts.

 

But barring that. I think cluster missiles are fair on strikers. I think burst lasers are fair on gunships as a defensive mechanism in close range (though, still not enough when other ships have them, blaster overcharge, AND secondary weapons to supplement their damage, so, you run instead of fight). I think scouts being fast is fair, on T1 scouts with less firepower anyway.

 

Flashfires/Stings it REALLY is the ship thats OP because it gets all those components that while fair on their own, are OP when used in combination. What makes a flashfire OP is that they can use scout speed/maneuverability and evade to close distance on you even while you're firing at them, pop blaster overcharge AND bypass at the same time, and use their burst lasers and cluster missiles on you.... all at once.