When matches consist of 6+ Flashfires/Stings...

[DarthVindictus]

You know they're not a balanced ship.

[Zoom_VI]

You know they're not a balanced ship.

 

nope that just means they are a populat ship. popular=/=OP

 

Example: on my RP-PvP server it is not uncommon to see teams consisting of 4+sorcs in ground Pvp and its not unusual to see a team where all eight players are inquisitors.

But I think we can agree that sorcs are not OP in PvP.

 

Same here FF/Sting are very users friendly and are popular ships to learn on

 

 

Also you fly a gunship you have no right to complain.

[Armonddd]

Captain Planet would like a word with you.

[Brilo]

I just figured out how to one shot other scouts with my Flashfire today. It's not particularly fun or challenging, but what the hell let's keep it that way til I get enough fleet reqs for whatever the next flavor is =)

 

I'm glad people are still having fun playing strikes. There will always be easy kills out there for you, but for any decent Flashfire pilot, you're one of those easy kills.

[RCSlyman]

I just figured out how to one shot other scouts with my Flashfire today. It's not particularly fun or challenging, but what the hell let's keep it that way til I get enough fleet reqs for whatever the next flavor is =)

 

I'm glad people are still having fun playing strikes. There will always be easy kills out there for you, but for any decent Flashfire pilot, you're one of those easy kills.

 

Bursts + BO + Bypass + close range + lucky crit?

Edited January 8, 2014 by RCSlyman

[BrianDavion]

I just figured out how to one shot other scouts with my Flashfire today. It's not particularly fun or challenging, but what the hell let's keep it that way til I get enough fleet reqs for whatever the next flavor is =)

 

I'm glad people are still having fun playing strikes. There will always be easy kills out there for you, but for any decent Flashfire pilot, you're one of those easy kills.

 

sure on the other hand a decent strike fighter pilot isn't gonna make getting that one shot easy. I fly both a strike fighter and a flashfire I know how it all works. a Flashfire is pretty much toothless at more then 4000 meters so if I wanna kill you I stay outside that range to the best of my ability I use my missiles and my heavier/longer range guns to hurt you before you even get in range. it's tricky as you're proably more manuverable or faster then I am but it's doable.

 

one of the big reasons for striker fighters to exist is they're a LOT more forgiving. in a scout if you make a mistake your dead (this is a HUUUGE part of why dedicated flashfire pilots tend to be amazing pilots. they HAVE to be) some vetern pilots like that added durability, and for a new pilot the striker is a better choice because they're gonna make mistakes, a strike fighter allows em to learn from it

[archifikoss]

You know they're not a balanced ship.

 

Lords of Kobol, you're still at it? Give it a break!

 

Also, I've never seen more than two of those per faction, though admittedly it could very well be a feature of my server.

Edited January 8, 2014 by archifikoss

[DarthVindictus]

Lords of Kobol, you're still at it? Give it a break!

 

Also, I've never seen more than two of those per faction, though admittedly it could very well be a feature of my server.

 

It's getting worse as time goes on and more people can afford the 5k fleet reqs. 4+ flashfire/sting matches are VERY common on harbinger. 6+ is becoming more common now. There's really no counter for it. They're the dominant dogfighters and also very fast and able to cap satellites fast, and since they pack a lot more offensive firepower than the default scouts they're more effective at zipping around from point to point for defense.

 

So far the best the community can come up with as a counter for them is "outnumber them" or "have teammates gang up on them with you" yeah, maybe if every flashfire took up 2 slots on the roster so you could outnumber them 12-6 that might be a viable strategy.

 

Frankly it defies logic to give the fastest ships that much firepower. In other games, the fastest ships, pack the weakest punch to compensate. Here they give them the best options for lasers, a laser boosting cooldown that they can stack with copilot skills, lock on missiles that do 900 damage when upgraded and have shield penetration, AND an RNG dodge.

Edited January 8, 2014 by DarthVindictus

[Armonddd]

So far the best the community can come up with as a counter for them is "outnumber them" or "have teammates gang up on them with you" yeah, maybe if every flashfire took up 2 slots on the roster so you could outnumber them 12-6 that might be a viable strategy.

 

No, the best advice the community has to offer is "get good".

 

Literally any ship in the game can kill a t2 scout. I can't even say it's harder on some ships than others, because really, it all depends on pilot skill. A skilled gunship can take out any scout he wants; a skilled scout can avoid dying to gunships in almost any circumstance. A skilled strike fighter is at a marked disadvantage against a skilled scout, but a mediocre scout will die a respectable amount to a mediocre strike fighter. Likewise, when it's mediocre gunship vs mediocre scout, it's kind of a tossup. And, of course, scout vs scout is pure skill (yes, even when one of those scouts is a Flashfire and the other is a Novadive).

 

The Flashfire and Sting are not automatically better ships. Most people don't unlock them until they've bought some upgrades on their other ships, which puts them at a relative disadvantage. That said, with some upgrades, the Flashfire and Sting do get what is (in my opinion) the best loadout in the game; burst lasers excel in the current format if you can stay close to enemies, cluster missiles are the most reliable missiles in the game, distortion field is a significantly better survivability cooldown than quick charge shields, and access to both barrel roll and retro thrusters lets you optimize your build for either. The only ability I'd really consider problematic is their access to booster recharge or blaster overcharge, neither of which have an equivalent on the strike fighter in the current format. That doesn't mean scouts are overpowered, however. A scout has to give up shield strength, hull integrity, and weapon range in order to run that (and it doesn't help that distortion field gives you a whopping -30% shield strength to both arcs).

 

Frankly it defies logic to give the fastest ships that much firepower. In other games, the fastest ships, pack the weakest punch to compensate. Here they give them the best options for lasers, a laser boosting cooldown that they can stack with copilot skills, lock on missiles that do 900 damage when upgraded and have shield penetration, AND an RNG dodge.

 

Burst lasers actually have lower DPS than a number of other options. Check your tooltips. They're also much more skill-intensive than any other laser in the game. The reason they're so good is because you get so few opportunities to line up a shot, so every one needs to count. Again, though, that's partially because of the format.

 

Blaster Overcharge I don't think is too much of a problem because it's the weaker option for that slot. It's also a skill-intensive cooldown, in that you can easily press it and then whiff everything. Distortion field + scout defenses is only more powerful than quick charge shields + strike defenses because the cooldown is so short. Clusters do nothing near 900 damage unless fully upgraded, at which point they're still fine because concussion missiles do 350 hull damage on hit with equal upgrades.

 

A good scout build in the hands of a skilled player will do extremely well. However, it is vulnerable to attacks from long range (which it has no counter to except boosting towards or away from the attacker, which is time not spent on the node), accurate attacks while making a strafing run (you can hit it if you line up the reticule, just like any other ship - it's just that you have to be good enough to line that up), and gunships (which, fully upgraded, can cripple or one-shot the scout, depending on choice of weapon).

 

It's also important to remember that we're currently judging scouts based on performance in one format. When capital vs capital is released, strike fighters will excel (due to their access to heavy lasers and various powerful missiles), and gunships will excel in deathmatch (due to their long range).

Edited January 8, 2014 by Armonddd

[Brilo]

Oh yeah, anyone can kill a Scout, they're completely vulnerable to like everything omg.

 

Here, lemme list like 10 reasons why scouts are balanced so that you'll believe me.

1) I think scouts are balanced, that's really important to remember.

2) Scouts are easy to hit

3) Scouts are cute

4) Scouts don't have any defenses worth mentioning

5) Scouts have low dps. Check your tooltips. Trust your tooltips, they wouldn't ever mislead you. Tooltips are your friend.

6) Scouts are cute

7) Scouts do nice things for people

8) Scouts sell cookies

9) Scouts are recyclable.

10) Scouts are cute

 

So yeah, I think we can put all of this behind us. You can trust me. Scout's honor

Edited January 8, 2014 by Brilo

[JPryde]

So yeah, I think we can put all of this behind us. You can trust me. Scout's honor

Your forgot to mention that Scouts are cute!

[blade_mercurial]

Brilo, sounds like you're trying to be cute. Does that mean you're NOT OP? :-P

 

I Play on both harbinger and ebon hawk and I've noticed a lot of flashfires/stings. Pubs tend to do better because they often have a couple gunships and swarm 1 sat at a time while imps rarely use gunships and always split forces between 2 sats....so what's my point? Flashfires work really well in this context.

 

So are they OP? Maybe. Consider what they get:

 

1 good gun + 1 good missile + a cooldown buff (either for gun or boost)

 

1 good shield + reactor buff and armour buff.

 

So yeah, pretty appealing. No other ship gets that many buffs either offensively or defensively and they have highest base speed/turn-rate....so evidence seems to suggest they are a bit OP.

 

And they are in fact the cutest ship, which definitely helps

[Itkovian]

I think scouts are in need of some balancing, but nothing dramatic. They certainly have the best cooldowns in the game, and are ideally suited for the only game mode we have.

 

For example, Burst Lasers are hands down the best laser weapons in the game right now. This is not because they have a higher DPS, but because they load all their damage in fewer attacks, and the game naturally leads to getting only occasional chances to attack with lasers (at least against good pilots) , so packing a larger punch in fewer shots is a significant advantage.

 

This, in large part, is a function of the domination game type, where most of the fighting happens in the tight spaces around satellites. The high close range accuracy of bursts and their single-shot damage makes them ideally suited for fighting on sats. This, I believe, is in large part responsible for the massive numbers scouts can give out (the offensive cooldowns also help, mind you).

 

As such, while I do think some tweaking is necessary, it shouldn't be anything massive. Additional roles and game types will hopefully go a long way to rectify this balance.

 

As an effective Strike pilot, however, I have to say it's nice to know that, as far as game balance goes, there's nowhere for us to go but up.

[Lymain]

I had an 8v8 recently against 2 gunships and 6 Flashfires...was really surprised to win that match easily.

 

I think there are basically two issues:

 

1) Domination puts way more emphasis on close-range fighting, and Flashfires are (imo) clearly designed to be the best close-range fighter.

 

2) Cluster missiles on a scout are just too good. I know it's popular to whine about BLCs, D-Field, and Blaster Overcharge, but it's possible to build a pretty darn effective Flashfire/Sting without any of those three components. In my experience, the root source of the Flashfire/Sting's power is its cluster missiles - that's the main reason it's better than the NovaDrive/Blackbolt.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Lymain

[Arkerus]

The reason scouts are a BIT OP is because of the evasion statistic in this game.

 

If every shot counted (that was supposed to hit) then scouts would have a true weakness. As it is right now, evasion basically makes up for any lack of armor and arguably is better than armor. I know I stopped flying my strikers because the combination of pure firepower and speed in a scout is simply unmatched.

 

I think GSF needs an evasion reduction across the board in all aspects.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Arkerus

[Lymain]

The reason scouts are a BIT OP is because of the evasion statistic in this game.

 

If every shot counted (that was supposed to hit) then scouts would have a true weakness. As it is right now, evasion basically makes up for any lack of armor and arguably is better than armor. I know I stopped flying my strikers because the combination of pure firepower and speed in a scout is simply unmatched.

 

I think GSF needs an evasion reduction across the board in all aspects.

 

I would have agreed with you a month ago, but I don't really think evasion is an issue. Do you really think the NovaDrive/Blackbolt is overpowered in combat? I don't. Missiles completely ignore evasion. If anything, I'd say buff missiles a little bit, which could benefit balance in other ways as well (unless they over-do it, of course ).

[Icebergy]

Shrug, they're still easy kills for my Nova.

[Zoom_VI]

Your forgot to mention that Scouts are cute!

 

*Bambi eyes*

[Arkerus]

I would have agreed with you a month ago, but I don't really think evasion is an issue. Do you really think the NovaDrive/Blackbolt is overpowered in combat? I don't. Missiles completely ignore evasion. If anything, I'd say buff missiles a little bit, which could benefit balance in other ways as well (unless they over-do it, of course ).

 

Buffing missiles will only make some of the scouts even better.

 

Yes, I truly believe evasion is a serious issue. PoT5 matches have turned into scout fests because they offer superior firepower (depending on loadout) in a high speed, high maneuver package.

 

Why would I take anything else?

[Zoom_VI]

Buffing missiles will only make some of the scouts even better.

 

Yes, I truly believe evasion is a serious issue. PoT5 matches have turned into scout fests because they offer superior firepower (depending on loadout) in a high speed, high maneuver package.

 

Why would I take anything else?

 

It would be pot5 that would stack FoTms on the slightest whim wouldn't it.

[Arkerus]

It would be pot5 that would stack FoTms on the slightest whim wouldn't it.

 

I don't know what other servers are like.

[Zoom_VI]

I don't know what other servers are like.

 

Well my sever has a obsession with Quells on impside and gunships on pubside.

 

See the second post in this thread for why a ship's popularity is not related at all to it being OP.

[Lymain]

Buffing missiles will only make some of the scouts even better.

 

Yes, I truly believe evasion is a serious issue. PoT5 matches have turned into scout fests because they offer superior firepower (depending on loadout) in a high speed, high maneuver package.

 

Why would I take anything else?

 

As I wrote earlier, the problem is scouts getting cluster missiles. You might as well offer Flashfires/Stings access to every secondary weapon in the game (aside from maybe Ion railguns ) because the vast majority of them would still take cluster missiles.

 

You even said yourself that scouts offer "superior firepower (depending on loadout) in a high speed, high maneuver package," but evasion has nothing to do with any of those three things. I would argue that the 'superior firepower' is really only true of Flashfires/Stings using cluster missiles.

 

While NovaDrives/Blackbolts can stack evasion just as well as Flashfires/Stings, I don't think many people take issue with where they stand balance-wise. On the other hand, cluster missiles are probably the best weapon in the game against evasion stacking, so should we really be surprised that the one ship that can both stack evasion and counter ships stacked with evasion is extremely popular?

[DarthVindictus]

The reason scouts are a BIT OP is because of the evasion statistic in this game.

 

If every shot counted (that was supposed to hit) then scouts would have a true weakness. As it is right now, evasion basically makes up for any lack of armor and arguably is better than armor. I know I stopped flying my strikers because the combination of pure firepower and speed in a scout is simply unmatched.

 

I think GSF needs an evasion reduction across the board in all aspects.

 

With flashfires it's not one aspect or the other that makes them OP, it's the COMBINATION of reliable lock on missiles, an extremely effective burst that comes with using both their system cooldown and their copilot skill, the natural mobility and speed, and evasion.

 

It's like they literally got the best of all worlds but health/shield pool, that's essentially it.

 

It's just insane design, when every other ship has more clear weaknesses and limitations. Strikers can't get burst lasers, don't have overcharge, only have a little bit more blaster range than the scouts, are slower and less maneuverable, and have the worst sensors in the game.

 

T1 Scouts have pretty bad lock on missiles that are mostly just good for turrets, sabotage probes I think make the most sense for a scout secondary but nobody really uses them, because rocket pods give them more damage, but rocket pods are dumb fire weapons with a slow rate of fire so they're not all that dangerous unless you're almost point blank range on someone, they have utility cooldowns rather than offensive, and limited laser selection. They're fast, maneuverable, have great sensors, and utility, but they have low shields and hull health, and have low firepower that more or less makes them good harassers, but not as good of killers. What a scout should be. They can be first to the satellites and cap, they can find gunships and harass them, maybe kill some of them, point out all the enemies to their allies, and harry strikers leading them away from satellites into open space where they have the maneuverability advantage.

 

Gunships have good firepower from a distance, but have weaker hulls/shields (remember, a gunship's default shield does not have a -30% shield capacity penalty, a strike fighter's default shield does.. but if a gunship is using a -30% shield capacity shield like distortion field, they have less shields than a quick charge shield striker, and much less than a directional shield striker) than strike fighters (unless specced to use reinforcement armor, gives them 50 more hull health than strikers.), but higher than scouts, and the worst mobility, and no lock on missiles. They have burst lasers, but in a fight, even a straight joust with no maneuverability to be considered, they'll lose to a scout because the scout has a secondary weapon adding damage, so a gunship's best bet is to make a run for it..... having the lowest speed, and worst engine consumption.

 

 

Yes, I can bypass and one shot a flashfire, but the rest of that match that flashfire will be specifically hunting me, and I'll have 1-2 other flashfires on me most of the match too. I may end a match with under 2 deaths, but in a match with 4+ flashfires, I also have under 5 kills and under 10 assists as well, because I spend most of the match running and hitting barrel roll basically off cooldown with incessant missile lock on beeping.

[Helig]

You know they're not a balanced ship.

Only 1 of the 6 Flashfire/Sting pilots are of any good, max. Otherwise, they fall just as easily to a half-upgraded Pike, or Starguard.

 

Also, after reading some posts in this thread, I think people greatly overestimate Evasion. The majority of kills/damage done (at least in my practice) with blaster cannons. As long as they're roughly in the center of your screen, you're *very* likely to hit them. Missiles help, but you won't get a lock on a decent humper/LoSer, even with Clusters. Hell, I manage to break 9/10 of locks (against Stings, no less) on a *Star Guard* when sat-humping - without access to Distortion lock breaks, and without "tight-space" engines (got Barrel Roll for rapid transitions).

Edited January 9, 2014 by Helig