Looking for an in-depth Marauder Carnage PVE guide

[GBHtheDuck]

I've been looking high and low for a solid guide for Carnage PVE, and maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places but I just can't seem to find one. Any help would really be appreciated.

[Iwipe]

I should have one published in a few days, I will link here when it is out

[TACeMossie]

I've been looking high and low for a solid guide for Carnage PVE, and maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places but I just can't seem to find one. Any help would really be appreciated.

 

Also if you can't wait for Dulfy's one, there is always KBN's Guide to Combat Spec (or: how to sentinel tank):

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=659058

 

its written in Jedi Sentinel lingo, but should be too hard to translate (He even starts with a Sentinel -> Marauder dictionary)

Edited January 6, 2014 by TACeMossie

[CecilPaladin]

KBN's guide is pretty good, and I learned a LOT about which abilities to chain together. But after implementing his changes, I only saw maybe a 5%-10% increase in damage (vs just using the abilities when they light up). Does it make that much of a difference to do his

[PS + BS > BR > TST] > Strike > [PS + Disp > BR > BS]

"rotation".

 

I also made a thread below somewhere where I express that my sniper does at least 20% more damage than my mara and they are comparatively equally geared. My sniper could sleep through his rotation it's that static. But on the training dummy and even in the last 2-3 ops I've been in, it's pretty consistent.

 

My comparatively equally geared sniper just does more damage. Has anyone else experienced this? Maybe I need to try a new Mara spec.

[AngusFTW]

Yes, its normal. Snipers OP

[GBHtheDuck]

I should have one published in a few days, I will link here when it is out

 

Awesome! I look forward to it.

I'll probably read KBN's guide as well, I mean, it can't hurt.

[vdbswong]

I'd definitely read KBN's guide over on the Sentinel Forums.

 

KBN's guide is pretty good, and I learned a LOT about which abilities to chain together. But after implementing his changes, I only saw maybe a 5%-10% increase in damage (vs just using the abilities when they light up). Does it make that much of a difference to do his "rotation".

 

Well, there's not much choice really with regards to PS windows, the first window will always be:

 

[PS > BS > X > X]

 

[Gore > Scream > X > X]

 

Your choices to fit in this window are BR (Massacre) or TST, since they're the highest damaging and BR > BR (Massacre > Massacre) is rather expensive.

 

Your second window will always look like:

 

[PS > DS > X > BS]

 

[Gore > Vicious Throw > X > Scream]

 

If you used TST last window then it won't be up for this one, so that leaves just BR (Massacre). If your TST is up because you didn't use it in the prev. window as BR (Massacre) does more damage, then... why would you use it here either.

 

It's not so much that it's that much better to use his "rotation", but there's not much else to go with. There's MS (Ravage) under Zen (Beserk) if you get it to line up, otherwise there's not much choice?

 

And by 20-25% better, what numbers are we talking here exactly? Because at 69-72 level gear, there shouldn't be *that* much disparity if you're playing them properly. A Sniper pulls around... 2700-2800dps in Ark/UW, so your Mara is pulling 2200 ish? If so, then you're probably not playing the spec to its full potential.

 

Unless your Sniper is Engineering spec which is just broken on Ops Dummies anyways.... then it's just that Engineering is ridiculous >.>

[CecilPaladin]

I'm working on a profile and trying to get some parse logs going. But over the last 2 weeks or so on torparse, I've notice the following avg dps on ops for my sniper and marauder:

 

MM Sniper: 2600-2800 dps

Carnage Mara: 1900-2200 dps

 

Minus AoE packs, it's been pretty consistent for boss fights etc. When there are mechanics that are non-melee friendly (and there are plenty), I tend to disregard those parses. Both toons are in the 69/72 gear now so it's gotten a bit better. But my mara consistently is trailing my sniper on all aspects.

 

I am convinced that either my gear really isn't comparable or that I'm somehow not using the right abilities on my marauder. On my mara I have to concentrate and watch for procs (which don't always happen) in order to get a good parse going. On my sniper I have the "rotation" down and can do it in my sleep. Since ranged really only have to worry about the occasional bad circle on the ground, you barely move at all.

 

I have literally started nodding off on some late night raids on my sniper. Was hoping the more action packed and engaging marauder would perform better.

Edited January 9, 2014 by CecilPaladin

[Sarafain]

How is your optimization on the sniper compared to the marauder?

 

Endurance heavy mods/enhancements might be making a bigger difference then you think, as well the Marauder benefits more from the 2/4 piece set bonus.

[CecilPaladin]

They are basically geared the same way. Target goal of 100% accuracy, 70% surge, 25+% crit, rest in power essentially. My mara actually has the better augments (might 28 purples) vs my sniper who only carry the blue ones. Not a huge difference I know, but still. My sniper is actually only at the 98% accuracy rate atm too.

 

Primarily I aim for Power and Surge, but the target goal is mentioned above. Both have 31 barrel or 31 hilts, and my Mara has slightly above the accuracy cap at 101%. The main issue I see is that I only have 3/4 set bonus for the mara, with the 4/4 bonus I could see being a big help. My sniper only runs with 3/4 set bonus as well, which I'll prob change to 2/4 as I don't plan on getting the pvp set bonus.

 

It's not like I'm running HM's or anything where dps actually matters. But try as I might I am really falling behind with the mara. In situations where I actually have to avoid stuff its even worst because sometimes I'm not exactly in range. I thought mara's were supposed to do much higher damage more easily, so that it evens out when they have to move out of fire. So far this doesn't seem to be the case for me. Is it the Carnage spec? Should I try something else?

[vdbswong]

They are basically geared the same way. Target goal of 100% accuracy, 70% surge, 25+% crit, rest in power essentially. My mara actually has the better augments (might 28 purples) vs my sniper who only carry the blue ones. Not a huge difference I know, but still. My sniper is actually only at the 98% accuracy rate atm too.

 

Primarily I aim for Power and Surge, but the target goal is mentioned above. Both have 31 barrel or 31 hilts, and my Mara has slightly above the accuracy cap at 101%. The main issue I see is that I only have 3/4 set bonus for the mara, with the 4/4 bonus I could see being a big help. My sniper only runs with 3/4 set bonus as well, which I'll prob change to 2/4 as I don't plan on getting the pvp set bonus.

 

It's not like I'm running HM's or anything where dps actually matters. But try as I might I am really falling behind with the mara. In situations where I actually have to avoid stuff its even worst because sometimes I'm not exactly in range. I thought mara's were supposed to do much higher damage more easily, so that it evens out when they have to move out of fire. So far this doesn't seem to be the case for me. Is it the Carnage spec? Should I try something else?

 

You're probably running your Acc a little high on your Mara, the 3% boost from "Narrowed Hatred" on top of the 3% from Ataru means you don't really have to budget as much as your Sniper (i think it's 3 Enh's).

 

Also, because of the reduced need for Acc. your Surge should be somewhere around 75% rather easily.

 

The 3/4 Set Bonus is definitely a contributing factor, since the passive boost from Zen is rather nice, but nowhere in the region of 20-25%.

 

And lastly, if you thought Mara's did more damage more easily, then i'm afraid you're sadly mistaken. RDPS will almost always have an easier time performing well simply because of range, as you've stated.

[CecilPaladin]

And lastly, if you thought Mara's did more damage more easily, then i'm afraid you're sadly mistaken. RDPS will almost always have an easier time performing well simply because of range, as you've stated.

 

I didn't mean easily, as in effort. I was using my comparison of WoW melee dps. Fury warriors and rogues basically do a tad more damage than ranged classes (this was when I was playing back in the day). BUT they had to move a lot and avoid stuff, so basically both dps's were relatively the same. I was surprised when my melee dps on the target dummy was coming in lower, as that would be a tank and spank encounter.

 

I FINALLY got 4/4 bonus set last night, and got a tad better gear. Re-optimized my accuracy lower and got more power going. I did notice some improvement, but it's sill about 14% less than the sniper consistently. It's now about ~2400 dps compared to my sniper's 2800 dps avg.

Edited January 10, 2014 by CecilPaladin

[Kawabonga]

I didn't mean easily, as in effort. I was using my comparison of WoW melee dps. Fury warriors and rogues basically do a tad more damage than ranged classes (this was when I was playing back in the day). BUT they had to move a lot and avoid stuff, so basically both dps's were relatively the same. I was surprised when my melee dps on the target dummy was coming in lower, as that would be a tank and spank encounter.

 

I FINALLY got 4/4 bonus set last night, and got a tad better gear. Re-optimized my accuracy lower and got more power going. I did notice some improvement, but it's sill about 14% less than the sniper consistently. It's now about ~2400 dps compared to my sniper's 2800 dps avg.

 

Can you post AMR profile and parses? Because i can assure you if they're equally geared you're definitely doing something wrong. I have both and my sniper has a very slight edge on the gear. I parse around 3k on both (very tiny bit more on my sniper)

 

Anyway, KBN's guide is awesome, check it out. It's worth learning the sentinellian to read it clearly.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Kawabonga

[vdbswong]

I agree with Kawabonga, it sounds like something's definitely amiss with your rotation somewhere along the line.

 

You should definitely be parsing even if not a little higher than your Sniper at the same gear level, although that's spec dependent as well.

 

Again, if you want to post some Parses we can take a look.

[CecilPaladin]

Alright, here are the parses. I uploaded the entire log, wasn't sure how to remove the trash ones. So please take a look at the boss fights and let me know what I'm doing wrong.

 

Torparse for Mantheon

 

Here's the profile: Mantheon

Edited January 11, 2014 by CecilPaladin

[Kawabonga]

Alright, here are the parses. I uploaded the entire log, wasn't sure how to remove the trash ones. So please take a look at the boss fights and let me know what I'm doing wrong. I'll work on a profile and post it soon.

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/548986

Well in order to look at your rotation we should be looking at the dummy parses, since the parses don't really say what is going on during boss fights. Your position relative to the bad guys for example, or where big bad circles spawn that may force you to move away... So a dummy parse is a much better way to see what you're doing wrong. In order to tell what you do wrong in boss fights we'd have to see you in action, like raid with you or see a video, which i doubt will happen.

 

Anyway, the first thing i noticed is your usage of force scream.

Ideally you should be using it only during gore windows and with the execute proc. I know mistakes happen and it's difficult to keep track of it, but anything less than 90% crit percentage on force scream is not good enough.

Your ApM is also pretty low. It should be 45+ (on a dummy).

[CecilPaladin]

So should I just use a log from one of the dummies? Is 5-6 mins enough time? I'll put that together sometime today.

[Kawabonga]

So should I just use a log from one of the dummies? Is 5-6 mins enough time? I'll put that together sometime today.

 

That would be best.

I took a look at your profile. The first thing you should work towards is replacing the A lettered mods with unlettered deft mods, the higher the better obviously.

[AngusFTW]

Main thing i noticed is that you are force screaming without autocrit proc on a couple of occasions, force scream crit rate should be 100% on a good carnage parse and your apm is far too low for carnage. You should be aiming for 48+apm for a carnage parse ideally it has an extremely higher apm then other classes. Edited January 11, 2014 by AngusFTW

[CecilPaladin]

Alright, got my 5 mins on the dummy. Here's the parse.

 

As far as gear, I thought I only had two 30A mods, the rest being regular 30's. I was hoping for a main hand drop for my main hand lightsaber 30A mod, and I should swap out my bracer mod as well. But I'm still gearing and looking to get the better 34 gear of course.

 

I tend to save my force scream for after I hit Gore. Sometimes there's a small gap in ability CD's when stuff doesn't want to proc. So I fill it with an auto attack. Should I use something else besides a regular attack? I'm not sure what to do since everything seems to be on CD. I had taken Viscous Slash off my hot bar for some time now, should I put it back as a filler?

 

Does APM really matter than much on a boss fight? Things are on CD so I spam it a split second before the next GCD is up. Does the APM reflect small spaces in abilities that should be filled by using stuff? The previous parses were on boss fights, so sometimes it can't be helped that you have to run away or avoid stuff. Hopefully on the dummy parse, the APM is better.

 

Even with all the upgrades etc, I was sitting at 2350 dps. From what I keep hearing, I should be doing better.

[Kawabonga]

Well you should work on your opener for a start. You're opener should always be Charge > (Bloodthirst+Frenzy+Berserk) > Battering Assault > Gore+Massacre > Ravage > Dual Saber Throw > Gore+Vicious throw > Force scream > 2*Massacre. Practice this a million times on the dummy

 

If gore procs on force charge or battering assault then Gore+Massacre > Ravage > Vicious throw > curse the gods for fakking up your opener.

 

Aside from that it doesn't actually look too bad. ApM though is pretty low, you should be aiming at the very minimum at 45. You also overlapped gores a few times, and that's an enormous loss. Another thing is berserk. i can't tell if you're using it as soon as you hit 30 fury, but if you're not, you should.

[CecilPaladin]

Hmm, I used KBN's opener below I thought:

 

Leap > (Inspiration + Valorous Call + Zen) Zealous Strike > Precision Slash + Blade Rush > (Relic + Adrenal) Master Strike > Twin Saber Throw

 

I'll give your opener a shot.

 

Yeah, I used gore a bit too much because I'm missing an ability there. If everything else is on CD or what not, I tend to fill that hole with gore or an auto attack. In the event the RNG gods don't give me a proc, what else can I use? I'm using berserk as soon as it lights up essentially. I might wait a sec or two trying to sync it up with Ravage to make sure I can Ravage during its duration.

 

I noticed that I had about a 5% miss ratio. Even at 100% melee accuracy and 110% force accuracy, I'm missing on the target operations dummy. There's also 2.82% dodge from the dummy, with a total of 7.81% misses. Is that normal? Anyway to recover those misses?

[Kawabonga]

Hmm, I used KBN's opener below I thought:

 

 

 

I'll give your opener a shot.

 

Yeah, I used gore a bit too much because I'm missing an ability there. If everything else is on CD or what not, I tend to fill that hole with gore or an auto attack. In the event the RNG gods don't give me a proc, what else can I use? I'm using berserk as soon as it lights up essentially. I might wait a sec or two trying to sync it up with Ravage to make sure I can Ravage during its duration.

 

I noticed that I had about a 5% miss ratio. Even at 100% melee accuracy and 110% force accuracy, I'm missing on the target operations dummy. There's also 2.82% dodge from the dummy, with a total of 7.81% misses. Is that normal? Anyway to recover those misses?

 

You must've lost something in the translation from sentinel to marauder. Relic+adrenal aside (which i forgot, since i don't use adrenals for parsing and i don't have a clicky relic ), the opener i wrote down is the same that's written down in KBN's guide.

You did this: Frenzy > Charge > Battering assault > Gore+Force scream > Massacre > Assault (which should never be used in a gore window) > Berserk > Rupture > Ravage > Gore+Force scream > Vicious throw > Massacre > Battering Assault > Dual Saber Throw.

Which looks a lot more like a regular unlucky gore window

 

No sign of bloodthirst in the whole parse. 10 berserks in 5 minutes, when you could easily fit 13. That's 15 seconds of 15% damage increase and 45 seconds of 4% damage increase you're losing out on

You should built 30 stacks fury using channel hatred (or any recovering item of your choice), then whilst charging pop bloodthirst, frenzy and berserk all together (this means you have to have them key bound in a way that the combo is easily accessible and clickable in sequence.)

 

As for the overlapping gores, if you don't have a force scream proc and you proc gore just spam massacre. It's never on cooldown and it's your best shot at getting any proc since it has a higher chance to trigger ataru form which is the only way to get both execute and slaughter. And i read your earlier comment, you should never under any circumstance use vicious slash, you did well to remove it from your quickbar.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Kawabonga