Why No Vanguard Brainstorming Thread?

[TheSupaCoopa]

Duran'del here:

 

Seriously. VGs are in an OK place right now, but we could be better. What I hate about this class is that no matter how hard we try or how skilled we are, we can never be as good as a Shadow or Guardian. Its really, really annoying.

 

I guess this thread could be our brainstorming thread.

 

Here's my ideas:

 

Breach(2 Point talent in Shield Specialist):

 

-Increases the damage done by Mortar volley by 10%/20%. In addition, when Mortar Volley finishes channeling, you have a 50%/100% chance to charge into the center of the blast zone, increasing damage done by 5% and decreasing all incoming damage by 3%.

 

Run And Gun(1 Point talent in Shield Specialist):

 

-Decreases energy cell cost of Explosive round and by 50% and its threat generated by 200%. In addition, damage done by Explosive round gives a stack of Heat of Battle, which decreases the heat cost of full auto by 3 per stack. At 3 stacks, Full auto no longer channels, applying its damage over a period of 3 seconds instead.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Honestly, I think that there should be more focus on DPS Vanguards. Especially Assault Spec. Assault is in a mostly good place in PvP. but it's PvE damage is quite pitiful. We need better heat management. If we were to say get like 24 Heat loss when we HiB a target under CGC, i would be more happy with Heat Management. we also need a DoT damage increaser, a good ability for this is actually Sticky Grenade, it has NO boosters in ANY other talent tree, it's purely filler as of right now, decent filler. but i think that Assault Spec could get something like 5% extra damage on your next 15 DoT attacks that hit the target. THAT would be useful! And possibly an Auto-Crit on Assault Plastique from Burns?

[TACeMossie]

I personally have 3 issues with assault vanguards right now:

 

1. I cant fit Assault plastique in my 18 second rotation without unnecessary downtime. Personally i'd either increase the cooldown to 18 seconds (and increase the total damage by 20%), or decrease the cooldown to 12 seconds (and decrease the total damage by 20%) - the first one is the one I'd be more likely to want as it would be a net DPS increase to my typical rotation I pull off. (IR -> AP -> SS -> HiB -> HS -> IP -> IP -> HiB -> SS -> HS -> IP -> HiB if procs allow)

 

2. Lets look at the skill Riot Augs. Then look at the commando skill Hyper Barrels.

 

Notice a difference? The class that is parsing WAY higher has the same skill (riot augs), just with a couple of tweaks: IR isn't buffed, instead They get their 2 HiB Proccers AND HiB massively buffed (+6% damage on all of them, cooldown reduction on full auto to make its cooldown line up properly, energy reduction on charged bolts to make it more spammable). What do we get? More IR damage and more Stockstrike damage (both get the +6% to AP so im gonna ignore that for now).

 

And whats worse, is stockstrike in Assault has the same issues as Unload does prior to Hyper Barrels: Its a skill that procs Ionic Accelerator, but the cooldown on it is 3 seconds longer than an ionic accelerator window - so you have to either delay it or not use it to proc it. Despite its much higher proc chance.

 

Oh and then there is also the energy management...

 

So my suggestion for point 2 is to make Riot Augs reduce the cooldown of stockstrike by 3 seconds (so it fits in nicely with Ionic Accelerator), and reduce the energy cost of Ion Pulse by 3 (so its more spammable, and nicer to use). And cause its so high up the assault tree the Hybrids wont be grabbing it anyway.

Oh and give the +6% HiB damage from it as well.

 

(oh and now my rotation is even nicer to use!

IR -> AP -> SS -> HiB -> IP -> IP -> SS -> HiB -> HS -> IP -> SS -> HiB -> IR -> AP -> SS -> HiB -> HS -> IP -> SS -> HiB -> HS -> IP -> SS -> HiB

 

well sort of, twice as many cooldowns but less hammer shots for more stockstrikes)

 

Finally point 3: Energy Management. Oh and that damn alacrity talent. So fix 2 birds with one stone. Replace the +1/2% alacrity with +1/2 energy on a crit. Could even eliminate the last of the Hammer shots in the above rotation, and get assault to do actual damage!

Edited January 6, 2014 by TACeMossie

[JMagee]

Duran'del here:

 

Seriously. VGs are in an OK place right now, but we could be better. What I hate about this class is that no matter how hard we try or how skilled we are, we can never be as good as a Shadow or Guardian. Its really, really annoying.

 

I guess this thread could be our brainstorming thread.

 

Here's my ideas:

 

Breach(2 Point talent in Shield Specialist):

 

-Increases the damage done by Mortar volley by 10%/20%. In addition, when Mortar Volley finishes channeling, you have a 50%/100% chance to charge into the center of the blast zone, increasing damage done by 5% and decreasing all incoming damage by 3%.

 

Run And Gun(1 Point talent in Shield Specialist):

 

-Decreases energy cell cost of Explosive round and by 50% and its threat generated by 200%. In addition, damage done by Explosive round gives a stack of Heat of Battle, which decreases the heat cost of full auto by 3 per stack. At 3 stacks, Full auto no longer channels, applying its damage over a period of 3 seconds instead.

 

 

Well, we meet again.

 

a. Are these proposed talents replacing existing talents in the tree, or are they new talents. There aren't too many points in Shield Specialist that feel really "wasted" so how would you go about implementing these into an already pretty good tree?

b. Where in the tree would they be? If something like breach ever got into the game, I could see it being semi-useful for DPS specs, as a sort of gap closer, as well as for the DPS boost Do you intend for them to be low hanging fruit or high up in the tree for Tanks only?

c. Explosive round and Full Auto? Just no. Those attacks go away as soon as possible and are never used. NEVER. There's no reason to use it, and adding in talents to attacks that aren't used is either going to confuse people, or have tanks just ignore the skill completely.

 

In regards to Assault:

a. I don't like these "Assault isn't doing enough damage" statements. If you can't provide any sort of parses indicating how poorly you think Assault is, then I can't take you seriously. I know I can be directed to some of the DPS standings and see GS and Sents beating VG parses, but I'd rather see there damage be brought down a bit than have VG damage buffed again. They're doing too much damage for the current content, while Assault is doing more than enough. My best parse (1Mill Health and Armor Debuff) is 3329DPS. And this is in a 72/78 mix.

 

b. I agree that ammo management can get out of hand quickly. I don't know specifically how I would tune it, maybe give SS a 100% chance to proc IA, but even that seems like overkill, the idea of using your highest ammo abilities to proc your ammo return ability can be tough. Maybe adding on a guaranteed proc to Emergency Powercell somewhere would be a good start.

 

c. TACeMossie, we've discussed this in some detail in your post about VG rotation, but I don't think that the VG will ever have anything more than priority list, and I'm OK with that. I personally don't like the idea of simply knowing that in order to play Assault I press 1,1,2,3,4,2,1,3,4,1,1,2,3,4, etc.

Edited January 6, 2014 by JMagee

[TACeMossie]

In regards to Assault:

a. I don't like these "Assault isn't doing enough damage" statements. If you can't provide any sort of parses indicating how poorly you think Assault is, then I can't take you seriously. I know I can be directed to some of the DPS standings and see GS and Sents beating VG parses, but I'd rather see there damage be brought down a bit than have VG damage buffed again. They're doing too much damage for the current content, while Assault is doing more than enough. My best parse (1Mill Health and Armor Debuff) is 3329DPS. And this is in a 72/78 mix.

 

b. I agree that ammo management can get out of hand quickly. I don't know specifically how I would tune it, maybe give SS a 100% chance to proc IA, but even that seems like overkill, the idea of using your highest ammo abilities to proc your ammo return ability can be tough. Maybe adding on a guaranteed proc to Emergency Powercell somewhere would be a good start.

 

c. TACeMossie, we've discussed this in some detail in your post about VG rotation, but I don't think that the VG will ever have anything more than priority list, and I'm OK with that. I personally don't like the idea of simply knowing that in order to play Assault I press 1,1,2,3,4,2,1,3,4,1,1,2,3,4, etc.

 

Im gonna respond to this area:

 

For A: I start by directing you here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=685275 - where Assault Vanguards and Pyrotech Powertechs are beaten by:

 

100% of slingers/snipers

100% of sentinels/marauders

100% of shadows/sins

100% of Mercs/Mandos

TK/Lightning Sages/sorcs

Lethality/DF Ops/scoundrels (possible for concealment/scrapper, but unknown)

Hybrid Vanguards/PTs

 

As you can see, Assault vanguards are only better than a few options:

Tactics Vanguard

Vigilance Guardian

Focus Guardian

Balance Sage

(Possible) Concealment Scrapper - UPDATE: Disproved, checked in honerable mentions.

 

Oh and its about the same results as Vigilence guardian and Balance sage, so its only better than 2 specs, one of which is its own class - and Tactics plays similarly to Hybrid anyway, just Hybrid is superior.

 

Next we look at the leaderboards:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=691926

 

The only person who is even remotely performing well as Assault is C-tor. And only in one parse does he actually do any noticable damage with it (Dread Master Tyrans). The rest of the time, Hybrid is close to the other specs, while tactics is heaps behind, and assault doesn't even make an appearance. If that doesn't scream that it should at least be looked at...

 

Especially since the only time that Assault is parsing better than the Hybrid, look up about 3 places and there is a Pyro Merc sitting there, taunting us vanguards with his superior damage (its more than 10% more) and less movement requirements.

 

As for C:

Sure, me going all 'rotation' on it is wrong, but I still like having stockstrike line up perfectly before HiB, and AP having its cooldown line up with IR. Whenever it happens its basically a 100% chance of turning on, and the proc rate on Ionic Accelerator, while it says 45/75%, seems a lot more like 99%/100%. Maybe Im just lucky though.

Edited January 7, 2014 by TACeMossie

[Ottoattack]

Im gonna respond to this area:

 

For A: I start by directing you here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=685275 - where Assault Vanguards and Pyrotech Powertechs are beaten by:

 

100% of slingers/snipers

100% of sentinels/marauders

100% of shadows/sins

100% of Mercs/Mandos

TK/Lightning Sages/sorcs

Lethality/DF Ops/scoundrels (possible for concealment/scrapper, but unknown)

Hybrid Vanguards/PTs

 

As you can see, Assault vanguards are only better than a few options:

Tactics Vanguard

Vigilance Guardian

Focus Guardian

Balance Sage

(Possible) Concealment Scrapper.

 

Oh and its about the same results as Vigilence guardian and Balance sage, so its only better than 17% of specs, one of which is its own class - and Tactics plays similarly to Hybrid anyway, just Hybrid is superior.

 

Next we look at the leaderboards:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=691926

 

The only person who is even remotely performing well as Assault is C-tor. And only in one parse does he actually do any noticable damage with it (Dread Master Tyrans). The rest of the time, Hybrid is close to the other specs, while tactics is heaps behind, and assault doesn't even make an appearance. If that doesn't scream that it should at least be looked at...

 

Especially since the only time that Assault is parsing better than the Hybrid, look up about 3 places and there is a Pyro Merc sitting there, taunting us vanguards with his superior damage (its more than 10% more) and less movement requirements.

 

As for C:

Sure, me going all 'rotation' on it is wrong, but I still like having stockstrike line up perfectly before HiB, and AP having its cooldown line up with IR. Whenever it happens its basically a 100% chance of turning on, and the proc rate on Ionic Accelerator, while it says 45/75%, seems a lot more like 99%/100%. Maybe Im just lucky though.

 

The problem with VG both dps specs, is the same with rage, they perform extremely well in PvP that any upgrade will make them beyond unstoppable in PvP. I think the best option for both tactics and assault is to buff unload (I forgot the VG name I play PT) since it is rotational in both dps trees and is not used in PvP. This can be leveraged to provide 100-150 dps between lowering CD and/or increasing damage, especially in the assault tree.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Ottoattack

[JMagee]

TAC,

 

I agree, I realize looking back at my statement, that I wasn't clear, I was directing my parse statement to Kaos_Kid. I know the leaderboards show VGs lagging behind a lot of classes. I don't believe I said anywhere that I didn't think they were lower. I simply suggested that maybe the other classes are overbuffed, and should be brought back in line closer to VG levels.

 

Do I think their ceiling is 300-400DPS lower than other classes? Yes.

Do I think it should be more balanced? Absolutely

 

I guess the point I'm trying to fight against is the fact that people get the impression that DPS VGs and Shadows are so bad they shouldn't be brought into HM Ops. And that's just not true. And when it just kind of spirals and festers into people who aren't well informed that they are gimped and handicapped and not good enough to do anything.

 

And personally, at the end of the day, I'd rather eke out 3450DPS in Assault than roll my face over the keyboard for 3800DPS as a gunslinger.

 

In regards to SS/IA/HIB, again, I agree with you, it's disappointing when you need to proc an IA and you SS on CD for another 4sec. Aligning the CDs would be a huge help in organizing things and forming a rough outline of a rotation.