Cluster Missiles: Double Volley or DoT?

[ptwonline]

Which do you prefer: the extra punch but lower ammo totals of double missiles, or the greater ammo but alightly lower damage of the DoT?

[Slivovidze]

It's not really my place to answer that question as I fly NovaDive with rocket pods (clusters aren't available on ND). But I still have an opinion on this.

The DoT is really too damn small. Tis just a bit above 100 damage. Spread to 5 seconds. Rocket pods have the same DoT, and I remember killing one guy with it, ever. I bet I was more surprised than that guy.

 

Double volley however is flat extra damage added. Some guys with double volleys seem to hit me in my barrel roll with only the second volley. (I evade the first one, see them explode behind with no damage, but then second volley hits me mid-barrel roll) And that is way more awesome. You get half the munition, that's only 10 if you don't upgrade your capacity in any way. That's low, but if you get some upgrade or companion, you get somehow decent number (15?).

And honestly, unless you are super sneaky and fast with your scout or fly a ****** tanky Pike (both with big skill involved), you will die often enough to refill.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Slivovidze

[Armonddd]

I'm at the point where I'm re-experimenting with most of my components and crew members now that I have the req to unlock things on a whim. I currently use the DoT because it does damage directly to the hull. I'd rather have 100-ish damage to the hull than 200-ish damage to shields; hull doesn't regenerate as quickly.

 

Against most pilots, they'll blow up before the DoT does much because I'll hit them another time with burst lasers. Against good pilots, I might not get that extra burst laser hit and the DoT damage is all I get against their hull (forcing them to fly more carefully until they eventually die). On the other hand, maybe if I were better at timing double volley so it does most of its damage to hull instead of shields...

 

My biggest argument against double volley is that you go through missiles so damn quickly. Maybe if that option also gave you an extra six missiles (which comes out to three more shots after double dipping), I'd like it more. As it is, I kind of have to run a crew member with spare ammo to make it worthwhile.

[Delta_V]

I've been using double-volley on my Flashfire. With the capacity upgrade and the extra capacity from using Kira in the offensive slot, I still have 18 missiles IIRC. Against other scouts, that second volley often provides enough punch to finish them off if they've been softened up w/ blasters first. I have definitely noticed a small uptick in my damage per match since I've gotten that upgrade.

 

 

I haven't tried the DoT upgrade yet, but while it might not seem like much damage, one thing to consider is that I *think* it will stop shield regen, which could be useful. It might not get as many kills on its own as the double-volley, but if it stop shield-regen, it will make them easier to finish off w/ blasters.

 

edit: Wait, the DoT does damage directly to hull? I was under the impression that it had to go through shields first. If that's the case, that could maybe make the DoT more appealing.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Delta_V

[Whitelightr]

Ive tested both ways and here is my OPINION:

 

Double Volley- better burst and overall killing ability. Unless you somehow sling missiles with ease and always run out this is the better choice. And if pilots on your server are slow enough to let you get easy missile locks, tell me where you play!

 

DOT: The extra kick to hull damage is nice but its so weak that it just doesnt do enough compared to the other option. It ticks for 15dmg per tick and thats just not enough to cause any real damage or set the pilot into a panic. This will be made worse if you consider Hydro Spanner, and if the future ship(s) still include the 'heal' ability they once had.

 

For me, in order for the DOT to be effective it either needs to make the entire missile damage a DOT; IE instead of 500dmg hit it would be a 500dmg DOT (possibly overpowered), or trade a larger amount of the instant damage for more DOT (1/2 and 1/2 or something). The reason being if the missile itself was weaker and DOT stronger, you could continue to blast with cannons on the target. Currently if you hit with the DOT and then pop another 1-2 blasters into them (killing them) you've wasted the DOT making it even more useless.

[Slivovidze]

edit: Wait, the DoT does damage directly to hull? I was under the impression that it had to go through shields first. If that's the case, that could maybe make the DoT more appealing.

 

Quite sure it does not go to hull directly. Not even sure how it deals with shields. Example: Enemy has front shield full, aft shield zero, I hit em with rocket (cluster or pod, no matter). I eat a chunk of their hull, and the DoT hits what? Also hull only, or does it go for shields, damaging the front shield (thus wasting its potential)?

I wonder about this, because sometimes I get hit by these gunships with that DoT lazor, and I see both my shield arcs getting damaged.

But I am quite sure that if the enemy has the quick charge shield with the 60% shield regen while taking damage perk, they will pretty much negate the DoT even if they are shieldless at the moment they get hit.

[Armonddd]

DOT: The extra kick to hull damage is nice but its so weak that it just doesnt do enough compared to the other option. It ticks for 15dmg per tick and thats just not enough to cause any real damage or set the pilot into a panic. This will be made worse if you consider Hydro Spanner, and if the future ship(s) still include the 'heal' ability they once had.

 

For me, in order for the DOT to be effective it either needs to make the entire missile damage a DOT; IE instead of 500dmg hit it would be a 500dmg DOT (possibly overpowered), or trade a larger amount of the instant damage for more DOT (1/2 and 1/2 or something). The reason being if the missile itself was weaker and DOT stronger, you could continue to blast with cannons on the target. Currently if you hit with the DOT and then pop another 1-2 blasters into them (killing them) you've wasted the DOT making it even more useless.

 

Whoa, now, let's correct some of these impressions you're under.

 

The DoT generally does 20 damage per tick and always does five ticks. Because the DoT is a percentage of the direct damage (specifically, 15% of the direct damage is dealt again in DoT form), sometimes it will tick for 19 (in fact, on an "average" hit of 650 damage, the DoT should total 97.5 damage, which probably means a 50% chance of 97 damage and a 50% chance of 98 damage). In some cases I've seen it tick for 17 or even as low as 13, presumably because I'm hitting someone with a lot of armor or someone who used Nullify.

 

Maximum hull values range from 950 (Blackbolt/Novadive) to 1026 (other current scouts) to 1350 (Mangler/Quarrel, and possibly future gunships) to 1450 (all three current strike fighters). At best, the missile DoT does ~10% of this maximum hull value. However, it's important to note that once the missile hits, there's no way to prevent this damage from occurring - even if you run away from the attacker or the attacker switches targets.

 

The DoT damage is on top of the damage the missile does on its own. Perhaps you know this, but others reading your post might not; in essence, the DoT boosts your damage to 115% of what it was before unlocking the tier 5 upgrade.

 

Increasing the relative value of the DoT (i.e. reducing missile damage from 650-ish to 400-ish and increasing DoT value from 100-ish to 350-ish) would not solve the problem of the DoT being wasted if you can keep a bead on the target with your blasters, because your blasters will always do so much damage that a six second window (the duration of the DoT plus the lock-on time plus some rounding) will blow them up. What it would do is make the clusters significantly more dangerous, because even if you can break away from the attacker's lasers, you now have this enormous DoT on you eating directly at your hull with almost nothing you can do to stop it. This kind of change would reduce the amount of skill required to get a kill (there's not too much skill required to get a lock on a guy that's at one third hull and then switch targets), and therefore I don't like it.

 

Currently, the only counter to the DoT is using Hydrospanner, which is a very inefficient form of hull recovery. There may be more efficient forms of hull recovery in the future, but we're not playing in 2.6 or later, we're playing in 2.5.

 

And, of course, hull damage is always better than shield damage.

[Armonddd]

Quite sure it does not go to hull directly. Not even sure how it deals with shields.

[...]

But I am quite sure that if the enemy has the quick charge shield with the 60% shield regen while taking damage perk, they will pretty much negate the DoT even if they are shieldless at the moment they get hit.

 

I've hit people with very low hull with the DoT, watched them pop the shield recharge, and still died to the DoT. However, I grant you, there may have been some outside influence that I missed. I'll make a mental note to keep an eye out for this specific situation. (Maybe I can convince a guildie to be a guinea pig.)

[Whitelightr]

Whoa, now, let's correct some of these impressions you're under.

First of all, they aren't IMPRESSIONS. I've tested and fraps and went over it. Perhaps some of the fighters I was testing on were using damage reduction components, but I know I see 15dmg ticks about 30-40% of the time.

 

The DoT generally does 20 damage per tick and always does five ticks. Because the DoT is a percentage of the direct damage (specifically, 15% of the direct damage is dealt again in DoT form), sometimes it will tick for 19 (in fact, on an "average" hit of 650 damage, the DoT should total 97.5 damage, which probably means a 50% chance of 97 damage and a 50% chance of 98 damage). In some cases I've seen it tick for 17 or even as low as 13, presumably because I'm hitting someone with a lot of armor or someone who used Nullify.

In theory it should do 20/tick. I could see the math allowing for occasion 19s though. Reality is I just dont see it averaging 20. My observation is the average is closer to 17 range.

 

However, it's important to note that once the missile hits, there's no way to prevent this damage from occurring - even if you run away from the attacker or the attacker switches targets.

Yes the damage is there once it hits, the problem is the damage is laughable at best. I purposely took enemies to low hull and watch the DOT not able to kill them with 3-4 ticks.

 

The DoT damage is on top of the damage the missile does on its own. Perhaps you know this, but others reading your post might not; in essence, the DoT boosts your damage to 115% of what it was before unlocking the tier 5 upgrade.

Yup and thats the problem. Its a measly 15% damage upgrade. While 15% can be massive, 15% of a little is unimpressive.

 

Increasing the relative value of the DoT (i.e. reducing missile damage from 650-ish to 400-ish and increasing DoT value from 100-ish to 350-ish) would not solve the problem of the DoT being wasted if you can keep a bead on the target with your blasters, because your blasters will always do so much damage that a six second window (the duration of the DoT plus the lock-on time plus some rounding) will blow them up. What it would do is make the clusters significantly more dangerous, because even if you can break away from the attacker's lasers, you now have this enormous DoT on you eating directly at your hull with almost nothing you can do to stop it. This kind of change would reduce the amount of skill required to get a kill (there's not too much skill required to get a lock on a guy that's at one third hull and then switch targets), and therefore I don't like it.

 

I wasn't trying to imply that it should overpower blaster fire. But to even make the DOT truely attractive it needs to offer more. Currently if you attempt to weaken a enemy and let the dot finish them, you cant be sure because the dot is so weak. If the DOT was stronger you could engage more knowing the DOT would help finish off enemies letting you switch targets faster. Besides the numbers I used were just for show, nothing more than an example to show the point I was making.

 

Currently, the only counter to the DoT is using Hydrospanner, which is a very inefficient form of hull recovery. There may be more efficient forms of hull recovery in the future, but we're not playing in 2.6 or later, we're playing in 2.5.

 

And, of course, hull damage is always better than shield damage.

 

True but 2.6 close. And after having 2 back-to-back patches related to GSF I'd wager we won't see anything for a while after this. Any changes, balancing, sugguestions should atleast be made now while we have a SLIM chance of something being done.

[Slivovidze]

I've hit people with very low hull with the DoT, watched them pop the shield recharge, and still died to the DoT. However, I grant you, there may have been some outside influence that I missed. I'll make a mental note to keep an eye out for this specific situation. (Maybe I can convince a guildie to be a guinea pig.)

 

I have hit people with low hull and some shields with my rocket pods and I have never seen them die from that DoT. Either that DoT was eating the shield, or it is so negligible that it didn't clear that final pixel. Of course, I also don't know 100%, but my impression is that my DoT went to shield.

Maybe the DoT eats what it hits?

Whatever is the truth, I have learned to not rely on the DoT as a guaranteed 100 hull damage. TBH I don't even rely on it as 100 damage. Sometimes (quite often) it seems to me that the DoT didn't apply at all. Still, on the pods, it is better choice than 10% range increase.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Slivovidze

[Ramalina]

If you often run out of missiles, choose the DOT, if you don't, choose double volley.

[Armonddd]

Sometimes (quite often) it seems to me that the DoT didn't apply at all.

 

Lots of stuff for me to reply to when I have more than a couple minutes, but I wanted to point out that this could be due to accidentally clicking the wrong upgrade. I've done this more than once with a few things (I thought for a while bursts were bugged to ignore armor on turrets, it turned out I had the wrong upgrade clicked.)

[ptwonline]

If you often run out of missiles, choose the DOT, if you don't, choose double volley.

 

Well that's the thing: I usually don't run out of missiles, but I would if I used the double volley.

 

Typical missile use is less than 5 if we're outmatched, and about 15 or so if we're the ones who are better.

[Sharee]

Well that's the thing: I usually don't run out of missiles, but I would if I used the double volley.

 

Typical missile use is less than 5 if we're outmatched, and about 15 or so if we're the ones who are better.

 

Then you should be fine. Base is 20, halved is 10, kira adds 5, 4th upgrade adds 4, = 19 total (theoretical calculation, not confirmed in-game)

[Armonddd]

First of all, they aren't IMPRESSIONS. I've tested and fraps and went over it. Perhaps some of the fighters I was testing on were using damage reduction components, but I know I see 15dmg ticks about 30-40% of the time. [...] In theory it should do 20/tick. I could see the math allowing for occasion 19s though. Reality is I just dont see it averaging 20. My observation is the average is closer to 17 range.

 

There's a huge difference between "usually does 19s and 20s but sometimes does 17s, 15s, and 13s depending on the target's build and cooldowns" and "plan for it to do 17s because that's the average". Also, my observations are 20s something like 70% of the time. It's rare I see less, but not unheard of. 15s and 13s are really rare, though - I'm pretty sure that only happens when you stack armor and pop Nullify, and not too many people run that build in my experience.

 

Yes the damage is there once it hits, the problem is the damage is laughable at best. I purposely took enemies to low hull and watch the DOT not able to kill them with 3-4 ticks.

 

I don't disagree that the damage, is low, but against a good pilot, who will fly away from your encounter and come back with full shields, 100ish hull damage means he has to play more carefully to dodge the respawn cafe.

 

I wasn't trying to imply that it should overpower blaster fire. But to even make the DOT truely attractive it needs to offer more. Currently if you attempt to weaken a enemy and let the dot finish them, you cant be sure because the dot is so weak. If the DOT was stronger you could engage more knowing the DOT would help finish off enemies letting you switch targets faster. Besides the numbers I used were just for show, nothing more than an example to show the point I was making.

 

You're not wrong, but given how powerful blasters are, there's no situation where five seconds of blaster fire shouldn't be considered in with a five second DoT - because five seconds of blaster fire hitting means the DoT won't last five seconds. Of course, the worse you are at getting in hits during those five seconds (and, to be fair, the better other players are at avoiding damage during those five seconds), the better the DoT gets.

 

Probably the better way to think about this tier of upgrades is +30% damage/-50% ammo vs +15% damage guaranteed to the hull as long as the target's still alive. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, and I'm not convinced there's a wrong answer (that's a great thing, btw).

 

True but 2.6 close. And after having 2 back-to-back patches related to GSF I'd wager we won't see anything for a while after this. Any changes, balancing, sugguestions should atleast be made now while we have a SLIM chance of something being done.

 

I dunno, I think it's hard for us to make suggestions without knowing what's in store for 2.6. We've heard stories of new classes, new ships in old classes, and new gameplay types. We just don't really have any way to adapt our suggestions to that; I personally think it's up to the devs to read our suggestions for current domination games and translate what they can for what's coming. They get the hard job of digesting all this feedback and applying it to the future game as well as the current one, because that's what we pay them for.

 

I have hit people with low hull and some shields with my rocket pods and I have never seen them die from that DoT. Either that DoT was eating the shield, or it is so negligible that it didn't clear that final pixel. Of course, I also don't know 100%, but my impression is that my DoT went to shield.

Maybe the DoT eats what it hits?

 

The DoT damage is pretty tiny. I wouldn't say it's negligible, though - see above.

 

You might be on to something with the DoT eating what it hits. Rocket pot and cluster missile DoTs might work differently, also.

 

Just another thing I wish we had dev confirmation on.

[Armonddd]

Then you should be fine. Base is 20, halved is 10, kira adds 5, 4th upgrade adds 4, = 19 total (theoretical calculation, not confirmed in-game)

 

Order of operations is important. Base is 20, +25% from Kira becomes 25, +4 from t4 is 29, half of thatl is 14 shots (15 if the game lets you take that last one, I haven't tested).

[Sharee]

Order of operations is important. Base is 20, +25% from Kira becomes 25, +4 from t4 is 29, half of thatl is 14 shots (15 if the game lets you take that last one, I haven't tested).

 

I assumed the percentages always use the base amount of missiles in their calculation, not the modified. Otherwise you would get different amount of missiles depending on whether you selected kira as crew member before or after selecting double volley.

 

so, double volley reduces the missile amount by 20*0.5=10

kira increases it by 20*0.25=5

etc.

then the final amount of + and - are counted together. I'll check when i get the last upgrade

[Zharik]

The DOT ticks for me as 20 4x, and 17 for the last (5th) tick. I've killed people with the DOT as a blaster burst and a missile lock fly-by takes them to near dead and the DOT finishes them before I can spin around to line them up again. That being said an extra 30% immediately would have the same effect sooner but I feel that there is an added benefit to a DOT - longer wait for shield regen to start. Think of it as an additional 5 seconds delay to their shield regen. That's huge!

 

Oh yeah, and I have run out of missiles in my flashfire. That's 30 shots.

 

-Gerrik

[Delta_V]

I assumed the percentages always use the base amount of missiles in their calculation, not the modified. Otherwise you would get different amount of missiles depending on whether you selected kira as crew member before or after selecting double volley.

 

so, double volley reduces the missile amount by 20*0.5=10

kira increases it by 20*0.25=5

etc.

then the final amount of + and - are counted together. I'll check when i get the last upgrade

 

Just checked - with double volley, Kira's +capacity, and the capacity upgrade, my Flashfire has 18 Cluster Missiles.

 

The only way I can get the math to work out is if the companion bonus is multiplicative and the +capacity is added after the double volley penalty.

 

That is:

 

[(20*0.5)+4]*(1+0.25) = 17.5 (which is rounded up to 18)

 

Where 20 is the base capacity, the 0.5 is from the double volley penalty, the 4 is from the extra capacity upgrade, and the (1+0.25) is the total plus the companion bonus.

 

Since the double volley penalty is applied first, that seems to make the double volley more attractive (as opposed to if the penalty was applied after all your other bonuses).

[Armonddd]

I assumed the percentages always use the base amount of missiles in their calculation, not the modified. Otherwise you would get different amount of missiles depending on whether you selected kira as crew member before or after selecting double volley.

 

so, double volley reduces the missile amount by 20*0.5=10

kira increases it by 20*0.25=5

etc.

then the final amount of + and - are counted together. I'll check when i get the last upgrade

 

My Ocula, with +25%/+4, has 18 missiles. That's 18 shots, not 9, because I'm dumb and double dipped in my math earlier.

[-KeggER-]

I'm always using the DoT on cluster and the crewmember skill lingering effect. That's two dots that eat away from the enemies hull, all while keeping their shield from recharging. When stacked together, they are very effective. One or two shots from my burst lasers after landing my two dots will undoubtedly make them go boom.

 

Sure I could use bypass, etc on my scout... But the DoT is GUARENTEED damage, which in my opinion is something that's a must. Plus I die very seldomly, and when I use the double volleys, I always run outa missiles.

 

It all depends on your build. If you are going to use one of the DoTs, you should definitely stack them and make a DoT build, so to speak.

 

 

It works for me

Edited January 5, 2014 by -KeggER-

[DroidDreamer]

Great discussion.

 

Question: Does the Rocket Pod DOT apply every time? If you hit someone with a Rocket Pod, then juke around to line up a shot and hit them again later, does it stack? If it doesn't stack can you automatically re-apply it once it has worn off?

[Armonddd]

Great discussion.

 

Question: Does the Rocket Pod DOT apply every time? If you hit someone with a Rocket Pod, then juke around to line up a shot and hit them again later, does it stack? If it doesn't stack can you automatically re-apply it once it has worn off?

 

That's a very interesting question, but I can't answer you because I'm not good enough to use rocket pods.

[mandoforlife]

Great discussion.

 

Question: Does the Rocket Pod DOT apply every time? If you hit someone with a Rocket Pod, then juke around to line up a shot and hit them again later, does it stack? If it doesn't stack can you automatically re-apply it once it has worn off?

 

Disclaimer: I haven't tested this, I'm only making assumptions based off the mechanics of the ground game. In the ground game, if you were playing a Sorcerer and put Affliction on a target, then re-applied it before the first application ran out, it would only refresh the duration, not stack. So, I would assume that the Rocket Pod DoT would NOT stack. However, like in the ground game, I would assume that the DoT, applied by seperate people onto the same target, WOULD stack.

 

Hopefully that makes sense.

[Lymain]

Disclaimer: I haven't tested this, I'm only making assumptions based off the mechanics of the ground game. In the ground game, if you were playing a Sorcerer and put Affliction on a target, then re-applied it before the first application ran out, it would only refresh the duration, not stack. So, I would assume that the Rocket Pod DoT would NOT stack. However, like in the ground game, I would assume that the DoT, applied by seperate people onto the same target, WOULD stack.

 

Hopefully that makes sense.

 

Yeah, that's correct (well, not sure about the 'separate people' part of it).